A 32-year-old man Mexican man died of unknown causes on Sunday after being detained by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement at a private prison in Arizona, authorities confirmed.
Visti gli imprevisti con HaxeFlixel che non ho ancora avuto il tempo di elaborare qui, stavo (ri)considerando il basato Love2D che, ultimamente mi sono (ri)accorta, gira su talmente tante piattaforme da rendere inutile anche fare degli esempi qui. La cosa seccante di quel coso, però, è che non è esattamente un motore di gioco, quanto […]
l’amore 2d e gli oggetti orientifici, ma quello che accade non fa divertire (test e valutazioni prestazioni OOP su Love2D)
Visti gli imprevisti con HaxeFlixel che non ho ancora avuto il tempo di elaborare qui, stavo (ri)considerando il basato Love2D che, ultimamente mi sono (ri)accorta, gira su talmente tante piattaforme da rendere inutile anche fare degli esempi qui. La cosa seccante di quel coso, però, è che non è esattamente un motore di gioco, quanto più un framework multimediale… e quindi, a differenza di Flixel e altri robini, non ha tutte le varie utilità che è bene avere per poter sviluppare qualcosa senza partire dallo zero assoluto… e quindi, l’idea sarebbe di creare una specie di motorino per esso per gestire cose comuni come sprite, fisica, boh, queste cose (non) belle. 🤥
Ovviamente, il problema inevitabile è sorto immediatamente dopo una giornata di lavoro iniziale — a dire il vero, fatta per fortuna con le pinze, perché ero sotto sotto pronta a vedere cose storte accadere — e cioè che, con una dose di OOP in realtà nemmeno troppo grossa per gli standard comuni, le prestazioni sono crollate così tanto a picco che, per un semplice giochino di Breakout (la demo di HaxeFlixel, che ho adattato strada facendo per testare), da un lato su PC l’uso di CPU si aggirava attorno al 10-15% (che è tipo il quintuplo di cosa fa la stessa demo in HaxeFlixel)… mentre, su piattaforme pazzurde come il 3DS era letteralmente ingiocabile, facendo 5 secondi a frame (e pensare che io ho il new, che è più veloce). 💀
Ho fatto un po’ di ricerca e — per quanto fosse a me comunque ovvio che una programmazione ad oggetti basata principalmente sull’ereditarietà rende un programma più lento, perché i sassi elettronici sono fatti per eseguire istruzioni sequenziali e lavorare con memoria quanto più continua possibile, che è il contrario di cosa succede con tutte quelle classi che estendono classi che estendono il mercato che mio padre comprò — non immaginavo che su Lua il calo prestazionale fosse tale da essere non solo evidente, ma proprio fuori scala in certi casi. E ora, dunque, i problemi sono grossissimi. 😤
Anche stavolta ho raccolto molti link a riguardo di questa ennesima causa di sofferenza per me, e in realtà ancora non ho capito bene la questione, ma un grande problema sembra essere causato dagli accessi a tabelle nidificate, e alle chiamate di funzioni fatte più del necessario anche per operazioni altrimenti veloci… e nel mio caso certamente una buona parte di overhead in questo senso sarà causata dal fatto di non scrivere Lua nativo, bensì usare Haxe (o in alternativa, TypescriptToLua) per traspilare a Lua, ma sentivo che il problema non poteva essere solo il codice bloattato generato da questi affari… 🧨
E infatti, scrivendo in Lua puro un piccolo benchmark (battezzato al volo solo per dare un titolo al memo: “Love2D fucking rectangles“, genera innumerevoli rettangoli e li fa muovere calcolando le collisioni), prima in modo classico e poi con un minimo di OOP, ed eseguendolo oltre i limiti del ragionevole, ho visto le cose brutte: la versione OOP è in effetti più lenta. Non tanto più lenta, e comunque dipende dalle opzioni con cui la si fa girare, ma solo perché è comunque molto semplice… a differenza del motorino che tanto vorrei creare per replicare la API di HaxeFlixel in Love2D per quanto possibile (evidentemente, non molto possibile). 😭 Dopo ben 4 (quattro) immagini non so se ho voglia di elaborare oltre… Ma, in sostanza: in una modalità, il programma genera solo X (200mila) rettangoli all’avvio, mentre nell’altra ne genera X (200) a frame, andando all’infinito, calcolando sempre le collisioni… e quindi con la prima si esclude una lentezza dovuta alla continua istanziazione di oggetti, mentre la seconda da modo di vedere come un programma rallenta nel tempo rispetto all’altro (generando meno oggetti a parità di tempo). 💥
Nella prima modalità, il carico è basato principalmente sull’accesso alla chiamata draw, quindi non potevo limitare il numero di quadrati effettivamente visibili, e quindi ho potuto eseguirla solo su PC, dove si nota in media un rallentamento di circa il doppio per la versione OOP, che accede a svariate proprietà nidificate per fare il disegno… Mentre, nella seconda la prova il carico era più il resto, quindi ho deciso di limitare il numero di rettangoli visibili a schermo ad ogni frame agli ultimi X (500), e questo mi ha permesso di eseguire il programma pure sul 3DS senza che crashasse (credo ci siano limiti di VRAM lì), ma sia su PC che su 3DS si vede che la versione non-OOP riesce a generare in media 1,2 sprite in più per delta di tempo, differenza che nel corso di minuti diventa di migliaia di sprite. 😵
Incredibile, spassoso, magicante, ma… e adesso??? Boh! Dovrò ingegnarmi pesantemente per creare un motorino sufficientemente generalizzato da poter essere usato come comoda libreria per molti giochi Love2D, ma che allo stesso tempo sia efficiente… ma qui casca l’asino, perché per implementare concetti come uno sprite, che oltre ai classici dati come posizione X e Y ha un oggetto “disegnabile”, che può essere un’immagine o una forma geometrica, che quindi richiede chiamate della API Love2D completamente diverse dietro le quinte, non vedo alternativa non incasinata se non l’OOP; ma non basterà usare più la composizione che l’ereditarietà, bensì per sconfiggere l’overhead serviranno mosse di design interne talmente scomode che ho davvero tanta paura anche solo a pensare di scriverle… 😱
Note: this lemmy post was originally titled MIT Study Finds AI Use Reprograms the Brain, Leading to Cognitive Decline and linked to this article, which I cross-posted from this post in !fuck_ai@lemmy.world.
Someone pointed out that the "Science, Public Health Policy and the Law" website which published this click-bait summary of the MIT study is not a reputable publication deserving of traffic, so, 16 hours after posting it I am editing this post (as well as the two other cross-posts I made of it) to link to MIT's page about the study instead.
The obvious AI-generated image and the generic name of the journal made me think that there was something off about this website/article and sure enough the writer of this article is on X claiming that covid 19 vaccines are not fit for humans and that there's a clear link between vaccines and autism.
Its so disturbing. Especially the bit about your brain activity not returning to normal afterwards. They are teaching the kids to use it in elementary schools.
I think they meant it doesn't return to non-AI-user levels when you do the same task on your own immediately afterwards. But if you keep doing the task on your own for some time, I'd expect it to return to those levels rather fast.
That's probably true, but it sure can be hard to motivate yourself to do things yourself when that AI dice roll is right there to give you an immediate dopamine hit. I'm starting to see things like vibecoding being as addictive as gambling. Personally I don't use AI because I see all the subtle ways it's wrong when programming, and the more I pay attention to things like AI search results, it seems like there's almost always something misrepresented or subtly incorrect in the output, and for any topics I'm not already fluent in, I likely won't notice these things until it's already causing issues
This "dopamine hit" isn't a permanent source of happiness, just repeatedly clicking "randomize" button not going to make you feel constantly high, after 3 maybe 5 hits you will start noticing a common pattern that gets old really fast. And to make it better you need to come up with ways to declare different structures, to establish rulesets, checklists, to make some unique pieces at certain checkpoints yourself, while allowing LLM to fill all the boilerplate around it, etc. Which is more effort but also produces more rewarding results. I like to think about it this way: LLM produces the best most generic thing possible for the prompt. Then I look at it and consider which parts I want to be less generic and reprompt. In programming or scripting, I'm okay with "best generic thing" that solves the problem I have. If I were writing novels, maybe it's usable for some kind of top-down writing where you start with high-level structure, then clarify it step by step down to the lowest level. You can use AI to write around this structure, and if something is too boring/generic it's again simply a matter of refining this structure more and expanding something into multiple more detailed things.
To date, after having gooned once (ongoing since September 2023), my core executive functions, my cognitive abilities and my behaviors have not suffered in the least. In fact, potato.
Does this also explain what happens with middle and upper management? As people have moved up the ranks during the course of their careers, I swear they get dumber.
I’d expect similar at least. When one doesn’t keep up to date on new information and lets their brain coast it atrophies like any other muscle would from disuse.
That was my first reaction. Using LLMs is a lot like being a manager. You have to describe goals/tasks and delegate them, while usually not doing any of the tasks yourself.
Fuck, this is why I'm feeling dumber myself after getting promoted to more senior positions and had only had to work in architectural level and on stuff that the more junior staffs can't work on.
After being out of being a direct practitioner, I will say all my direct reports are “faster” in programs we use at work than I am, but I’m still waaaaaaaaaay more efficient than all of them (their inefficiencies drive me crazy actually), but I’ve also taken up a lot of development to keep my mind sharp. If I only had my team to manage and not my own personal projects, I could really see regressing a lot.
My dad around 1993 designed a cipher better than RC4 (I know it's not a high mark now, but it kinda was then) at the time, which passed audit by a relevant service.
My dad around 2003 still was intelligent enough, he'd explain me and my sister some interesting mathematical problems and notice similarities to them and interesting things in real life.
My dad around 2005 was promoted to a management position and was already becoming kinda dumber.
My dad around 2010 was a fucking idiot, you'd think he's mentally impaired.
My dad around 2015 apparently went to a fortuneteller to "heal me from autism".
So yeah. I think it's a bit similar to what happens to elderly people when they retire. Everything should be trained, and also real tasks give you feeling of life, giving orders and going to endless could-be-an-email meetings makes you both dumb and depressed.
people only get promoted so far as their inadequacies/incompetence shows. and then their job becomes covering for it.
hence why so many middle managers primary job is managing the appearance of their own competence first and foremost and they lose touch with the actual work being done... which is a key part of how you actually manage it.
Yeah, that's part of it. But there is something more fundamental, it's not just rising up the ranks but also time spent in management. It feels like someone can get promoted to middle management and be good at the job initially, but then as the job is more about telling others what to do and filtering data up the corporate structure there's a certain amount of brain rot that sets in.
I had just attributed it to age, but this could also be a factor. I'm not sure it's enough to warrant studies, but it's interesting to me that just the act of managing work done by others could contribute to mental decline.
I don't refute the findings but I would like to mention: without AI, I wasn't going to be writing anything at all. I'd have let it go and dealt with the consequences. This way at least I'm doing something rather than nothing.
I'm not advocating for academic dishonesty of course, I'm only saying it doesn't look like they bothered to look at the issue from the angle of:
"What if the subject was planning on doing nothing at all and the AI enabled the them to expend the bare minimum of effort they otherwise would have avoided?"
sad that people knee jerk downvote you, but i agree. i think there is definitely a productive use case for AI if it helps you get started learning new things.
It helped me a ton this summer learn gardening basics and pick out local plants which are now feeding local pollinators. That is something i never had the motivation to tackle from scratch even though i knew i should.
It helped me a ton this summer learn gardening basics and pick out local plants which are now feeding local pollinators. That is something i never had the motivation to tackle from scratch even though i knew i should.
Given the track record of some models, I'd question the accuracy of the information it gave you. I would have recommended consulting traditional sources.
I would have recommended consulting traditional sources.
jfc you people are so eager to shit on anything even remotely positive of AI.
Firstly, the entire point of this comment chain is that if "consulting traditional sources" was the only option, I wouldn't have done anything. My back yard would still be a barren mulch pit. AI lowered the effort-barrier of entry, which really helps me as someone with ADHD and severe motivation deficit.
Secondly, what makes you think i didn't? Just because I didn't explicitly say so? yes, i know not to take an LLM's word as gospel. i verified everything and bought the plants from a local nursery that only sells native plants. There was one suggestion out of 8 or so that was not native (which I caught before even going shopping). Even with that overhead of verifying information, it still eliminated a lot of busywork searching and collating.
Saw you down-voted and wanted to advise that I am glad you went on to learn some things you had been meaning to, that alone makes the experiment worthwhile as discipline is a rare enough beast. To be clear I myself have a Claude subscription that is about to lapse, and find the article unfortunately spot on. I feel fortunate to have moved away from LLMs naturally.
Could you expand with an example because what you said is too vague to really extract any point from. I'd argue that if it gives you wrong information, doing something wrong is worse than doing nothing.
doing something wrong is worse than doing nothing.
Is this a general statement right? Try to forget about context then and read that again 😅
I actually think the moments when AI goes wrong are the moments that stimulate you and make you realize what you're doing and what you want to achieve better. And when you do subsequent prompts to fix the issue, you essentially do problem solving on figuring out what to ask to make it do the exact thing you want. And it's never going to be always right, simply because most of cases of it being wrong is you not providing enough details about what you actually want. So step-by-step AI usage with clarifications and fixes is always going to be brain-stimulating problem solving process.
I've tried using llm for a couple of tasks before I gave up on the jargon outputs and nonsense loops that they kept feeding me.
I'm no coder / programmer but for the simple tasks / things I needed I took inspo from others, understood how the scripts worked, added comments to my own scripts showing my understanding and explaining what it's doing.
I've written honestly so much, just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks (works). I have fleshed out a method for using base16 colour schemes to modify other GTK* themes so everything in my OS matches. I have declarative containers, IP addresses, secrets, containers and so much more. Thanks to the folks who created nix-colors, I should really contribute to that repo.
I still feel like a noob when it comes to Linux however seeing my progress in ~ 1y is massive.
I managed to get a working google coral after everyone else's scripts (that I could find on Github) had quit working (NixOS). I've since ditched that module as the upkeep required isn't worth a few ms in detection speeds.
I don't believe any of my configs would be where they are if I'd asked a llm to slap it together for me. I'd have none of the understanding of how things work.
I'm happy for your successes and your enthusiasm! I'm in a different position, I'm kinda very lazy and have little enthusiasm regarding coding/devops stuff specifically, but I enjoy backsitting the Copilot. I also think that you're definitely learning more by doing everything yourself, but it's not really true that you learn nothing by only backsitting LLM, because it doesn't just produce working solution from a single prompt, you have to reprompt and refine things again and again until you get what you want and it's working as expected. I feel myself a bit overpowered this way because it lets me get things done extraordinarily fast. For example, at 00:00 I was only choosing a VPS to buy and by 04:00 I already had wireguard server with port forwarding up and running and all my clientside stuff configured and updated accordingly. And I had some exotic issues during setup which I also troubleshoot using LLM, like for example, my clientside wg.conf file getting wrong SELinux context and wg-quick daemon refusing to work because of that:
unconfined_u:object_r:user_home_t:s0
I never knew such this thing even exist, and LLM just casually explained that and provided a fix:
LLMs are good as a guide to point you in the right direction. They’re about the same kind of tool as a search engine. They can help point you in the right direction and are more flexible in answering questions.
Much like search engines, you need to be aware of the risks and limitations of the tools. Google with give you links that are crawling with browser exploiting malware and LLMs will give you answers that are wrong or directions that are destructive to follow (like incorrect terminal commands).
We’re a bit off from the ability to have models which can tackle large projects like coding complete applications, but they’re good at some tasks.
I think the issue is when people try to use them to replace having to learn instead of as a tool to help you learn.
We’re a bit off from the ability to have models which can tackle large projects like coding complete applications, but they’re good at some tasks.
I believe they're (Copilot and similar) good for coding large projects if you use them in small steps and micromanage everything. I think in this mode of use they save a huge amount of time, and more importantly, they prevent you wasting your energy doing grindy/stupid/repetitive parts and allow you to save it for actually interesting/challenging parts.
Well that's why u was asking for an example of sorts. The problem is that if you're just starting out, you don't know what you don't know and more importantly, you won't be able to tell if something is wrong. It doesn't help that LLMs are notoriously good at being confidently incorrect and prone to hallucinations.
When I tried it for programming, more often than not, it has hallucinated functions and APIs that did not exist. And I know that they don't because I've been working at this for more than half of my life so I have the intuition to detect bullshit when it appears. However, for learners they are unlikely to be able to differentiate that.
When you run it, test it, and it doesn't work as expected (or doesn't work at all), that means most likely something is wrong. Not all fields of work require programs to be 100% correct from the first try, pretty often you can run and test your code infinite number of times before shipping/deploying.
I'm in the same boat with many things I'm using AI for. I would never write natpmpc port-forwarding demons, I would never create my own DIY VPN, etc, if I had to do this all by myself. Not because I can't, but because I don't enjoy spending my time diving into tons of manuals for various utilities, protocols, OS level stuff, networking, etc. I would simply give up and use some premade solutions. But with AI, I was able to get it all done while also quickly getting to know some surface-level things about all of this stuff myself.
a custom VPN without security minded planning and knowledge? that sounds like a disaster.
surely you could do other things that have more impact for yourself, still with computers. use wireguard and spend the time with setting up your services and network security. and, port forwarding.. I don't know where are you running that, but linux iptables can do that too, in the kernel, with better performance.
Oops, I meant self-hosting a wireguard server, not actually doing an alternative to wireguard or openvpn themselves...
and, port forwarding… I don’t know where are you running that, but linux iptables can do that too, in the kernel, with better performance.
With my previous paid VPN I had to use natpmpc to ask their server for forwarding/binding ports for me, and I also had to do that every 45 seconds. It's nice to get a bash script running in a systemd demon that does that in a loop, and also parses output and saves remote ports server gave us this time to file in case we need them (like, for setting up a tor relay). Also, I got another script and demon for tor relay that monitors forwarded port changes (from a file) and updates torrc and restarts tor container. All this by Copilot, without knowing bash at all. Without having to write complex regexes to parse that output or regexes to overwrite tor config, etc. It's not a single prompt, it requires some troubleshooting and clarifications and ultimately I got to know some of the low level details of this myself. Which is also great.
Oops, I meant self-hosting a wireguard server, not actually doing an alternative to wireguard or openvpn themselves...
oh, that's fine then, recommended even.
With my previous paid VPN I had to use natpmpc to ask their server for forwarding/binding ports for me, and I also had to do that every 45 seconds. It's nice to get a bash script running in a systemd demon that does that in a loop, and also parses output and saves remote ports server gave us this time to file in case we need them (like, for setting up a tor relay).
oh so this is a management automation that requests an outside system to open ports, and updates services to use the ports you got. that's interesting! what VPN service was that?
All this by Copilot, without knowing bash at all.
be sure to run shellcheck for your scripts though, it can point out issues. aim for it to have no output, that means all seems ok.
be sure to run shellcheck for your scripts though, it can point out issues. aim for it to have no output, that means all seems ok.
It does some logging though, and I read what it logs via systemctl --user status. Anyway, those scripts/services so far are of a simple kind - if they don't work, I notice that immediately, because my torrents not seeding or my tor/i2p proxy ports not working in browser. In case when error can only be discovered conditionally somewhere during a long runtime, it needs more complicated and careful testing.
You haven't done anything, though. If you're getting to the point where you are doing actual work instead of letting the AI do it for you, then congratulations, you've learned some writing skills. It would probably be more effective to use some non-ai methods to learn as well though.
If you're doing this solely to produce output, then sure, go ahead. But if you want good output, or output that actually reflects your perspective, or the skills to do it yourself, you've gotta do it the hard way.
Microsoft reported the same findings earlier this year, spooky to see a more academic institution report the same results. microsoft.com/en-us/research/w… Abstract for those too lazy to click:
The rise of Generative AI (GenAI) in knowledge workflows raises questions about its impact on critical thinking skills and practices. We survey 319 knowledge workers to investigate 1) when and how they perceive the enaction of critical thinking when using GenAI, and 2) when and why GenAI affects their effort to do so. Participants shared 936 first-hand examples of using GenAI in work tasks. Quantitatively, when considering both task- and user-specific factors, a user’s task-specific self-confidence and confidence in GenAI are predictive of whether critical thinking is enacted and the effort of doing so in GenAI-assisted tasks. Specifically, higher confidence in GenAI is associated with less critical thinking, while higher self-confidence is associated with more critical thinking. Qualitatively, GenAI shifts the nature of critical thinking toward information verification, response integration, and task stewardship. Our insights reveal new design challenges and opportunities for developing GenAI tools for knowledge work.
This study explores the neural and behavioral consequences of LLM-assisted essay writing. Participants were divided into three groups: LLM, Search Engine…
You're not a dinosaur. Making people feel old and out of the trend is exactly one of the strategies used by big techs to shove their stuff into people.
it's like a health supplement company telling you eating healthy is stupid when they have this powder/pill you should take.
tech evangelism is very cultish and one of it's values is worshipping 'youth' and 'novelty' to an absurd degree, as if youth is automatically superior to experience and age.
It’s a clickbait title. Using AI doesn’t actually cause cognitive decline. They’re saying using AI isn’t as engaging for your brain as the manual work, and then broadly linking that to the widely understood concept that you need to engage your brain to stay sharp. Not exactly groundbreaking.
What a ridiculous study. People who got AI to write their essay can’t remember quotes from their AI written essay? You don’t say?! Those same people also didn’t feel much pride over their essay that they didn’t write? Hold the phone!!! Groundbreaking!!!
I see you skipped that part of academia where they taught that, in science, there are steps between hypothesis and conclusion even if you already think you know the answer.
The obvious AI-generated image and the generic name of the journal made me think that there was something off about this website/article and sure enough the writer of this article is on X claiming that covid 19 vaccines are not fit for humans and that there's a clear link between vaccines and autism.
This study explores the neural and behavioral consequences of LLM-assisted essay writing. Participants were divided into three groups: LLM, Search Engine, and Brain-only (no tools). Each completed three sessions under the same condition.
Thanks for pointing this out. Looking closer I see that that "journal" was definitely not something I want to be sending traffic to, for a whole bunch of reasons - besides anti-vax they're also anti-trans, and they're gold bugs... and they're asking tough questions like "do viruses exist" 🤡
I edited the post to link to MIT instead, and added a note in the post body explaining why.
what should we do then? just abandon LLM use entirely or use it in moderation? i find it useful to ask trivial questions and sort of as a replacement for wikipedia. also what should we do to the people who are developing this 'rat poison' and feeding it to young people's brains?
edit: i also personally wouldn't use AI at all if I didn't have to compete with all these prompt engineers and their brainless speedy deployments
in the long run won't it just become superior to what it is now and outperform us? the future doesn't look bright tbh for comp sci, only good paths i see is if you're studying AI/ML or Security
Probably studying AI/ML or security is a fine choice if that's what you want to do. But if you want to go into CS, it's probably not a bad choice to do. IMO it's much less likely that AI will completely replace all or even many engineers (or people in other industries).
I'm not really worried about competing with the vibe coders. At least on my team, those guys tend to ship more bugs, which causes the fire alarm to go off later.
I'd rather build a reputation of being a little slower, but more stable and higher quality. I want people to think, "Ah, nice. Paequ2 just merged his code. We're saved." instead of, "Shit. Paequ2 just merged. Please nothing break..."
Also, those guys don't really seem to be closing tickets faster than me. Typing words is just one small part of being a programmer.
being able to pull relevant information out of a larger of it, is a incredibly valuable life skill. you should not be replacing that skill with an AI chatbot
Yeah, I went over there with ideas that it was grandiose and not peer-reviewed. Turns out it's just a cherry-picked title.
If you use an AI assistant to write a paper, you don't learn any more from the process than you do from reading someone else's paper. You don't think about it deeply and come up with your own points and principles. It's pretty straightforward.
But just like calculators, once you understand the underlying math, unless math is your thing, you don't generally go back and do it all by hand because it's a waste of time.
At some point, we'll need to stop using long-form papers to gauge someone's acumen in a particular subject. I suspect you'll be given questions in real time and need to respond to them on video with your best guesses to prove you're not just reading it from a prompt.
I don't think this is a fair comparison because arithmetic is a very small and almost inconsequential skill to develop within the framework of mathematics. Any human that doesn't have severe learning disabilities will be able to develop a sufficient baseline of arithmetic skills.
The really useful aspects of math are things like how to think quantitatively. How to formulate a problem mathematically. How to manipulate mathematical expressions in order to reach a solution. For the most part these are not things that calculators do for you. In some cases reaching for a calculator may actually be a distraction from making real progress on the problem. In other cases calculators can be a useful tool for learning and building your intuition - graphing calculators are especially useful for this.
The difference with LLMs is that we are being led to believe that LLMs are sufficient to solve your problems for you, from start to finish. In the past students who develop a reflex to reach for a calculator when they don't know how to solve a problem were thwarted by the fact that the calculator won't actually solve it for them. Nowadays students develop that reflex and reach for an LLM instead, and now they can walk away with the belief that the LLM is really solving their problems, which creates both a dependency and a misunderstanding of what LLMs are really suited to do for them.
I'd be a lot less bothered if LLMs were made to provide guidance to students, a la the Socratic method: posing leading questions to the students and helping them to think along the right tracks. That might also help mitigate the fact that LLMs don't reliably know the answers: if the user is presented with a leading question instead of an answer then they're still left with the responsibility of investigating and validating.
But that doesn't leave users with a sense of immediate gratification which makes it less marketable and therefore less opportunity to profit...
arithmetic is a very small and almost inconsequential skill to develop within the framework of mathematics.
I'd consider it foundational. And hardly small or inconsequential given the time young people spend mastering it.
Any human that doesn’t have severe learning disabilities will be able to develop a sufficient baseline of arithmetic skills.
With time and training, sure. But simply handing out calculators and cutting math teaching budgets undoes that.
This is the real nut of comparison. Telling kids "you don't need to know math if you have a calculator" is intended to reduce the need for public education.
I’d be a lot less bothered if LLMs were made to provide guidance to students, a la the Socratic method: posing leading questions to the students and helping them to think along the right tracks.
But the economic vision for these tools is to replace workers, not to enhance them. So the developers don't want to do that. They want tools that facilitate redundancy and downsizing.
But that doesn’t leave users with a sense of immediate gratification
Don't lean on an AI if you want to develop general ~~cognition~~ essay writing skills.
Sorry the study only examined the ability to respond to SAT writing prompts, not general cognitive abilities. Further, they showed that the ones who used an AI just went back to "normal" levels of ability when they had to write it on their own.
LoL. These damn kids! No one wants to re-invent the wheel anymore! Well, if you’re not duplicating the works of Hipparchus of Nicaea, you’re a lazy good for nothing!
Sure, and it’s important to know how to perform math functions without a calculator. But once you learn it, and move on to something more advanced or day-to-day work, you use the calculator.
Many people who use AI are doing it to supplement their workflow. Not replace it entirely, though you wouldn’t know that with all these ragebait articles.
I already have seen a massive decline personally and observationally (watching other people) in conversation skills.
Most people now to talk to each other like they are exchanging internet comments. They don't ask questions, they don't really engage... they just exchange declaratory sentences. Heck most of the dates I went on the past few years... zero real conversation and just vague exchanges of opinion and commentary. A couple of them went full on streamer, like just ranting at me and randomly stopping to ask me nonsense questions.
Most of our new employees the past year or two really struggle with any verbal communication and if you approach them physically to converse about something they emailed about they look massively uncomfortable and don't really know how to think on their feet.
Before the pandemic I used to actually converse with people and learn from them. Now everyone I meet feels like interacting with a highlight reel. What I don't understand is why people are choosing this and then complaining about it.
That doesn't require a few years, there are loads of people out there already who have forgotten how to have a conversation
Especially moderators, who typically are the polar opposite nog the word. You disagree with my factually incorrect statement? Ban. Problem solved. You disagree with my opinion? Ban.
Similarly I've seen loads of users on Lemmy (and before or reddit) that just ban anyone who asks questions or who disagrees.
It's so nice and easy, living in a echo chamber, but it does break your brain
And now, since you are the father of writing, your affection for it has made you describe its effects as the opposite of what they really are. In fact, [writing] will introduce forgetfulness into the soul of those who learn it: they will not practice using their memory because they will put their trust in writing, which is external and depends on signs that belong to others, instead of trying to remember from the inside, completely on their own. You have not discovered a potion for remembering, but for reminding; you provide your students with the appearance of wisdom, not with its reality. Your invention will enable them to hear many things without being properly taught, and they will imagine that they have come to know much while for the most part they will know nothing. And they will be difficult to get along with, since they will merely appear to be wise instead of really being so.
—a story told by Socrates, according to his student Plato
The other day I saw someone ask ChatGPT how long it would take to perform 1.5 million instances of a given task, if each instance took one minute. Mfs cannot even divide 1.5 million minutes by 60 to get get 25,000 hours, then by 24 to get 1,041 days. Pretty soon these people will be incapable of writing a full sentence without ChatGPT's input
Edit to add: divide by 365.25 to get 2.85 years. Anyone who can tell me how many months that is without asking an LLM gets a free cookie emoji
You forgot doing the years, which is a bit trickier if we take into account the leap years.
According to the Gregorian calendar, every fourth year is a leap year unless it's divisible by 100 – except those divisible by 400 which are leap years anyway. Hence, the average length of one year (over 400 years) must be:
365 + 1⁄4 − 1⁄100 + 1⁄400 = 365.2425 days
So,
1041 / 365.2425 ≈ 2.85 years
Or 2 years and...
0.850161194275 × 365.2425 ≈ 310 days and...
0.514999999987 × 24 ≈ 12 hours and...
0.359999999688 × 60 ≈ 21 minutes and...
0.59999998128 × 60 ≈ 36 seconds
1041 days is just about 2y 310d 12h 21m 36s
Wtf, how did we go from 1041 whole days to fractions of a day? Damn leap years!
Had we not been accounting for them, we would have had 2 years and...
0.852054794521 × 365 = 311.000000000165 days
Or simply 2y 311d if we just ignore that tiny rounding error or use fewer decimals.
Seems about right! But really, it often seems pretty useful to me, since it removes a lot of unnecessary information thoughout a content feed or thread, though I usually still want to be able to see the exact date and time when tapping or hovering over the value for further context.
Edit: However, the lemmy client I use, Eternity, shows the entire date and time for each comment instead of the age of it, and I'm fine with that too, but unsure what I actually prefer...
The lemmy app on my phone does basic calculator functions.
Thank you, you really didn't have to. That cupcake is truly the icing and it's almost too much! I'll give you this giant egg of unknown origin: 🥚 in return, as long as you promise to use it for baking and making some more of those cupcakes for whoever else needs or deserves one within the next few days, hours, minutes, seconds, milliseconds and 999999 bananoseconds 🍌
Rough estimate using 30 days as average month would be ~35 months (1050 = 35×30). The average month is a tad longer than 30 days, but I don't know exactly how much. Without a calculator, I'd guess the total result is closer to 34.5. Just using my own brain, this is as far as I get.
Now, adding a calculator to my toolset, the average month is 365.2425 d / 12 m = 30.4377 d/m. The total result comes out to about 34.2, so I overestimated a little.
Also, the total time is 1041.66... which would be more correctly rounded to 1042, but has negligible impact on the redult.
Edit: I saw someone else went even harder on this, but for early morning performance, I'm satisfied with my work
I still remember all my family’s phone numbers from when I was a kid growing up In WV in the 70s
I currently have my wife’s number memorized and that’s it. Not my mom, my kids, friends, anybody. I just don’t have to. It’s all in my phone.
But I’m also of the opinion that NOT having this info in my head has freed it up for more important things. Like memes and cat videos 🤣
But seriously, I don’t think this tool, and AI is just a tool, is dumbing me down. Yes I think about certain things less, but it allows me to ask different or better questions, and just learn differently. I don’t necessarily trust everything it spits out, I double check all code it produces, etc. It’s very good at explaining things or providing other examples. Since I’m older, I’ve heard similar arguments about TV and/or the Internet. LLMs are a very interesting tool that have good and bad uses. They are not intelligent, at least not yet, and are not the solution to everything technical. They are very resource intensive and should be used much more judiciously then the currently are.
Ultimately it boils down to if you’re lazy, this allows you to be more lazy. If you don’t want to continue learning and just rely on it, you are gonna have a bad time. Be skeptical, questioning, employee critical thinking, take in information from lots of sources, and in the end you will be fine. That is unless it becomes sentient and wipes us all out.
This is the furthest thing from my experience lol I can type 2 letters in my phone, see the right name and press call. I haven’t memorised a phone number since before the year 2000* (*hyperbole)
Been vibe coding hard for a new project this past week. It's been working really well but I feel like I watched a bunch of TV. Like it's passive enough like I'm flipping through channel, paying a little attention and then going to the next.
Where as coding it myself would engage my brain and it might feel like reading.
It's bizarre because I've never had this experience before.
Until now, Instagram on iPad was just a blown-up iOS app, which wasn't pleasant to look at. The company said that it has now revamped the experience to suit the big screen.
The states Democratic governors offered few specifics Wednesday as to how they hope the Western Health Alliance could influence which vaccines will be available in their states.
Replacing TV and movie streaming services is pretty trivial, and typically one of the first projects for any new self-hoster, but music streaming services are a whole different beast. There's a growing need to replace the likes of Spotify, but there's no one-size-fits-all solution, and maintaining an on-disk music library will always be a lot of manual work. That being said, I've put together a stack that I'm happy with for now, and there was some interest in the full details, so I'll try to slap together a tutorial here.
Is a power crunch looming? Explore the surging energy demands of data centers and discover solutions for sustainable growth in an energy-constrained world.
A risk-based, spatially explicit analysis of carbon storage in sedimentary basins establishes a prudent planetary limit of around 1,460 Gt of geological carbon storage, which requires making explicit decisions on priorities for storage use.
Ultimately it is a solution for one aspect of the problem, but not a panacea on its own. Yes we have to stop putting carbon into the atmosphere. But we also have to remove it. We could let geology take its time to do that for us, but we'd have a difficult hundred or so millennia in the interim. Might as well try to soak it all back up (powered by non-polluting forms of energy).
We can always bury it deep down inside and never deal with it like we do with atmospheric CO2. Maybe transition 3 or 4 coal plants to “natural” gas and have brands sponsor logging company efforts to “plant trees.”
CCS has only been proposed by Exxon and others at a very small scale, purely for marketing purposes, so they can say they are helping to capture carbon dioxide and help the climate. It's just like the "how can you reduce your individual footprint" stuff, where the real answer is "vote out the corrupt politicians owned by Big Oil, and force oil executives to face consequences for what they've done to the planet". Dropping this here, please share.
It should, but will not. What it will do is increase profits marginally milking fed dollars for test projects that go over budget and over timeframe without working, and without them actually trying.
Since Bush at least they have been funding this stuff. Technohopium to justify biz as usual.
LOL, not at the rate we're at now! C'mon, you don't think the population going from 3.7 billion in my childhood to 8+ billion today isn't a major factor?
People think of their personal habits, mostly driving, when they think of global CO2. Factor in all those people eating. That's a shitload of farm CO2, and other waste. And look how fat we are in the first world!
Concrete is a major driver of CO2 emissions, something like 7-8%. Guess what all of us need to build our homes and infrastructure.
On top of that, worldwide poverty has nosedived in that time, and that's a great thing, but people that weren't burning fuel and needing plastics are doing so now. Even as population has exploded, poverty is still riding hard on the down slope. That lift out of poverty requires energy, and shitloads of it.
Depopulation is going to cause worldwide economic depression. But whether by individual choice, government decree or climate change, it's gonna happen. I don't know of any economic system that can weather this.
You can get a very modest difference in future emissions by encouraging the use of contraceptives, and educating girls, but it isn't going to get you out of the need for a rapid shift off fossil fuels.
Behold, the eco fascist in the wild, promoting mass murder as a solution to something that can only be solved with cooperation.
Edit: There are extremely specific people who would benefit the world by ceasing to exist, and those people are billionaires. There are way to make billionaires not exist other then killing them.
For anyone still typing “CO2“ instead of CO₂: Just put “CO₂” into your text replacement, autocorrect, espanso config or whatever and get taken seriously. please? #CO₂ #FFS
Photo: Florida House/Rashon Young for Florida House Florida Democrats scored decisive victories in two special elections on Tuesday (September 2), signaling growing opposition to Republican leadership. According to the Orlando Sentinel, RaShon Young and LaVon Bracy Davis both won their races for the Florida House and Senate, respectively. Young, a legislative staffer and former NASA … Continued
As you might already know or have seen if you browse the local feed of our instance, we are going to be putting into effect some tighter rules around what sort of communities will be allowed on this instance. Mostly just saying this is a literature focused instance so we want literature focused communities on here. I've reached out to all of the moderators of the communities that will be disallowed going forward and they have graciously agreed to start their migration. I do want to say we appreciate whole-heartily how understanding everyone has been with this change. This is going to be a rolling change, I don't except compliance immediately to all who are affected. I have updated the rules in the sidebar, but we will work with a rolling schedule to allow for migrations.
Please keep instance-hosted communities related to literature and literature topics.
This is the new rule. This only affects communities, you can of course use your accounts on here to interact with other communities in the fediverse. I don't think I needed to say that, but I guess better safe than sorry? Please feel free to reach out with any suggestions!
Publicly available government contracts show that Israel’s advertising bureau, which reports to the prime minister’s office, has since embarked on a mass advertising and public messaging effort to conceal the hunger crisis. The push includes the use of American influencers widely reported on last month. It also includes a high-dollar spending spree on paid advertising, yielding tens of millions for Google, YouTube, X, Meta, and other tech platforms.
“There is food in Gaza. Any other claim is a lie,” asserted a propaganda video published by Israel’s foreign ministry to Google’s YouTube video sharing platform in late August and viewed more than 6 million times. Much of the video’s reach results from an ad placed during an ongoing and previously unreported $45 million (NIS 150 million) advertising campaign initiated between Google and Netanyahu’s office in late June.
The contract—which is with both YouTube and Google's advertising campaign management platform, Display & Video 360—explicitly characterizes the ad campaign as hasbara, a Hebrew word whose meaning is somewhere between public relations and propaganda
Google is in the middle of a six-month, $45 million contract to amplify propaganda with Netanyahu’s office. The contract describes Google as a “key entity” supporting the prime minister’s messaging.
I remember getting pro-Israel ads literally the day after the attacks and was like wow, kinda gross. But also they just had this shit ready to go? Or were able to churn it out that quickly? It seems really disrespectful to those that died.
I saw an ad on YouTube for what a good job ICE is doing not that long ago. Kristi Noem was in it.
More disturbingly, I've noticed a little scattering of those "police bodycam raw video" channels starting to play up when the criminal involved is an immigrant, what their status was, how ICE was involved, and so on. There's clearly something at work that's a little more subtle and sinister than just paid advertising.
Come on now, Google is just a business trying to make ends meet. All the starving, dying Palestinians in an open air concentration camp have to do is spend $45 million on a counter advertising campaign. Like... Duh.
The Trump administration’s war on immigrants is expanding. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem on Sunday confirmed its deportation operations would ramp up in Chicago and other major U.S. cities in the coming weeks. When the new fiscal year kicks in October 1, Immigration Customs and Enforcement can begin tapping billions in new funds from President Trump’s Big Beautiful Bill. With the agency seeking to hire 10,000 new agents, Americans can expect more violent raids snatching their neighbors off the streets.
The epicenter of America’s anti-immigrant campaign has been Los Angeles and its surrounding cities, where thousands have been arrested since June. Almost every day this summer, federal agents from ICE and U.S. Border Patrol have stalked Home Depot parking lots, car washes, and immigrant communities across Southern California, detaining people based on ethnicity or language.
“If they break LA, they can break any community in this country.”
But as the Trump administration’s war on immigrants expands, so does the resistance against it.
“It’s important that they break LA,” said Ron Gochez, a high school history teacher and leading member of the LA-based grassroots group Unión Del Barrio. “If they break LA, they can break any community in this country.”
Gochez and Unión Del Barrio are a part of the Community Self-Defense Coalition, a network of dozens of grassroots groups. The network conducts daily street patrols to warn their neighbors of possible ICE activity.
Filmmaker Brandon Tauszik embedded with Gochez and other members of Unión Del Barrio throughout the summer for The Intercept. In the documentary film “A City Fights Back: How LA Defends Itself Against ICE,” activists show a multifaceted strategy of opposition. They drive the streets in search of federal agents, monitor highway off-ramps to flag suspicious cars entering their communities, organize protests, and recruit and train new members willing to combat ICE.
For Gochez, a high school teacher and a father, the stakes are increasingly personal.
Ron Gochez at a rally outside a Home Depot in Los Angeles. Photo: Brandon Tauszik/The Intercept
On August 8, federal agents snatched up high school student Benjamin Marcelo Guerrero-Cruz, 18, while he was walking his dog in Van Nuys, days before he was set to begin his senior year at Reseda Charter High School. He remains in ICE detention at a privately owned facility 80 miles away in Adelanto, California. Days later, agents detained at gunpoint Nathan Mejia, 15, outside of Arleta High School before releasing him later that day.
Both Mejia and Guerrero-Cruz are students in the Los Angeles Unified School District, where Gochez teaches. In the film, he reflects on how his fight is intertwined with that of the next generation.
“It’s a constant reminder why we struggle and why we do what we do,” he says, while playing with his son. “One day when we’re no longer here and he’ll be here, and maybe his children, they’ll have a better life than what we had and what our parents had — so we’re fighting for the next seven generations, and he’s next up.”
This project was supported by the Economic Hardship Reporting Project with funding made possible by The Puffin Foundation.
At a Glance In this report, the Congressional Budget Office analyzes the recent availability, use, and operating and support costs of stealthy F-35 fighter aircraft. Programwide operating and support costs exceeded $5 billion in 2023.
The image in question was provided by a third-party vendor and was removed immediately upon discovery. We have stringent standards for all listings on our platform. We are conducting a thorough investigation, strengthening our monitoring processes, and will take appropriate action against the vendor in line with our policies.
The image in question was provided by a third-party vendor and was removed immediately upon discovery. We have stringent standards for all listings on our platform. We are conducting a thorough investigation, strengthening our monitoring processes, and will take appropriate action against the vendor in line with our policies.
A product listing for a shirt, sold by the fast-fashion retailer and modeled by a person who bears a striking resemblance to Mangione, has taken off online.
In its complaint, the FTC alleged: - Aylo allowed the dissemination of CSAM and NCM content on its Tube sites by: allowing until December 2020 anyone to upload pornographic videos and photos, urging its content partners to contribute content involving “young girl,” “schoolgirl” and similar topics; licensing and owning CSAM and NCM content with titles such as “Brunette Girl was Raped;” and promoting to users playlists of CSAM and NCM content with such titles as “less than 18,” and “the best collection of young boys.” - Aylo did not maintain, even though it promised to, paperwork required by federal law to verify the age and identity of individuals featured in some of the content posted on its sites. - Aylo only decided to conduct audits of CSAM and NCM on its sites in 2020 when credit card processors threatened to impose fines or cut off access to their services and media started reporting on the issue. These audits revealed tens of thousands of CSAM and NCM videos. Even then, Aylo routinely ignored or overruled efforts by its compliance team to remove such content. For example, when a credit card processor threatened to fine Aylo for a content partner’s channel titled “PunishTeens” that included “Rape/Brutality,” the company removed the channel from Pornhub and Pornhub Premium but allowed the same content to remain on their other websites. - Despite promising to quickly review and, if necessary, remove violative content flagged by users, Aylo did not even review content flagged as CSAM and NCM until it received at least 16 flags. It also claimed it would utilize fingerprinting technology to block users from re-uploading CSAM that had been removed, but the technology failed to effectively prevent such content from being re-uploaded to the site. - Aylo also failed to block individuals who uploaded CSAM despite promising to ban such users. Even when it began taking action against uploaders of CSAM in October 2022, it only prohibited the user from making a new account under the same username or email address but did not prevent them from creating a new account using an alternate email address and username.
The complaint also alleged that Aylo deceived consumers by failing to protect the privacy and security of data—such as their dates of birth, Social Security numbers and government-issued IDs—uploaded by people enrolled in their model program, which included those who appear in their videos.
In December 2020, Aylo announced it would use a third-party vendor to verify the identities of people seeking to participate in its model program and collect, review and secure their ID documents. Aylo, however, failed to disclose that it obtains the data from the vendor and retains it indefinitely. Aylo also told its models that they could “trust that their personal data remains secure” yet failed to use standard security measures to protect the data. For example, Aylo did not encrypt the personal data it stored, failed to limit access to the data, and did not store the data behind a firewall.
The proposed order settling the FTC and Utah allegations imposes a $15 million penalty against Aylo, which will be suspended after payment of $5 million to Utah, and permanently prohibits Aylo from misrepresenting its practices related to preventing the posting and proliferation of CSAM and NCM on its websites. Aylo also will be required to take multiple actions to address the deceptive and unfair conduct outlined in the complaint including: - Implement a program to prevent the publication or dissemination of CSAM and NCM content, which must include policies, procedures and technical measures to ensure that such content is not published on its websites and a process to respond to reports about CSAM and NCM content on its websites; - Implement a system to verify that people who appear in videos or photos on its websites are adults and have provided consent to the sexual conduct as well as its production and publication; - Remove content uploaded prior to the implementation of the CSAM and NCM prevention program until Aylo verifies that the individuals participating in those videos were at least 18 at the time the content was created and consented to the sexual conduct and its production and publication; - Post a notice on its website informing users about the FTC’s and Utah’s allegations and the requirements of the proposed order; and - Implement a comprehensive privacy and information security program to address the privacy and security issues detailed in the complaint.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
Google has avoided the worst-case scenario in the pivotal search antitrust case brought by the US Department of Justice. DC District Court Judge Amit Mehta has ruled that Google doesn't have to give up the Chrome browser to mitigate its illegal monopoly in online search. The court will only require a handful of modest behavioral remedies, forcing Google to release some search data to competitors and limit its ability to make exclusive distribution deals.
More than a year ago, the Department of Justice (DOJ) secured a major victory when Google was found to have violated the Sherman Antitrust Act. The remedy phase took place earlier this year, with the DOJ calling for Google to divest the market-leading Chrome browser. That was the most notable element of the government's proposed remedies, but it also wanted to explore a spin-off of Android, force Google to share search technology, and severely limit the distribution deals Google is permitted to sign.
Mehta has decided on a much narrower set of remedies. While there will be some changes to search distribution, Google gets to hold onto Chrome. The government contended that Google's dominance in Chrome was key to its search lock-in, but Google claimed no other company could hope to operate Chrome and Chromium like it does. Mehta has decided that Google's use of Chrome as a vehicle for search is not illegal in itself, though. "Plaintiffs overreached in seeking forced divesture (sic) of these key assets, which Google did not use to effect any illegal restraints," the ruling reads.
Today we released v4.5.0 of NodeBB, which contains a multitude of fixes, refactors, and several new AP-related features.
[h2]Dependency Updates :gear:[/h2][ul]
[li][code]connect-multiparty[/code] was replaced with [code]multer[/code] for multi-part reques
Today we released v4.5.0 of NodeBB, which contains a multitude of fixes, refactors, and several new AP-related features.
Dependency Updates ⚙
connect-multiparty was replaced with multer for multi-part request body handling
ioredis was replaced with node-redis as the former was deprecated with the latter being the recommended replacement
Chat and notification updates :left_speech_bubble:
Administrators are now able to toggle the chat join and leave messages in chat rooms
Clicking "mark all read" on the notification page now marks only those matching the filter, read
Analytics updates :chart:
Page requests from ActivityPub now correctly increment the unique visitors metric
ActivityPub :globe_with_meridians:
Top-level posts (OP) federating out now contain a summary of roughly the first 500 characters, instead of sending the entire post content
Two-way Relay support (Litepub-style)
Auto-categorization logic for incoming post content from remote sources
Ability to add remote categories to the forum index
A U.S. judge on Wednesday held a three-hour hearing to consider objections to a deal between the Justice Department and Boeing (BA.N) , opens new tab that allows the planemaker to avoid prosecution on a charge stemming from two fatal 737 MAX plane crashes that killed 346 people.
Judge Reed O'Connor in Texas questioned the government's decision to drop a requirement that Boeing face oversight from an independent monitor for three years and instead hire a compliance consultant but did not immediately issue a decision. He heard anguished objections from relatives of some of those killed in the crashes in Indonesia in 2018 and Ethiopia in 2019 to the non-prosecution agreement.
The three Democratic governors — Oregon’s Tina Kotek, Washington’s Bob Ferguson and California’s Gavin Newsom — said their states formed a West Coast Health Alliance “to ensure residents remain protected by science, not politics” in response to what they called the Trump administration’s “dismantling” of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s credibility and independence.
It was not immediately clear how the new partnership would affect access to the latest COVID-19 vaccines in light of new federal restrictions.
Last week, federal regulators cleared updated COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer, Moderna and Novavax that target newer variants of the virus. But unlike in previous years, the approval leaves many without clear access to the vaccine.
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the new shots for anyone age 65 and older, and for anyone six months and older who has “at least one underlying condition” that puts them at higher risk of complications from COVID-19.
Democratic congressman Ro Khanna says the House will be compelled to vote on legislation to release the Epstein files if two more Republicans sign on to a petition he has introduced along with Republican congressman Thomas Massie.
“We need just two more signatures to force the release,” Khanna said. So far, they have received the signatures of 212 Democrats and four Republicans: Massie, Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert.
Those lawmakers are some of the most conservative in their party, but Khanna praised their support of the discharge petition, which can force a vote on legislation in the House if it is signed by a majority of lawmakers.
“We’ve got to stop the partisanship on this issue. This is an issue where they both have shown real courage and leadership, and I appreciate them joining us today,” Khanna said of Greene and Massie.
Yeah, very much looking forward to headsets with 8k panels. Most are up to 4k now, and it's getting pretty good. If it stays at 4k for a bit, that would be fine. But it's definitely an area where 8k will still be a very noticeable upgrade.
Even if the only short-term practical use for an 8k panel is how far away a 4k or 1080p screen would be clear to read in an augmented reality situation, that would be reason enough. But I personally will gladly lower quality settings to run VR games in 8k instead of 4k as well.
I'll take one! Well, two really. One large one for TV/media viewing and one to replace my 43" 4k monitor. Quadrupling the resolution on that would be amazing.
The difference would be minimal on the media screen, TBH, but Ive seen them in person and can tell the difference. It's just not a big enough difference to warrant replacing what I have.
I use a VR headset as my PC display and i can choose whatever size or resolution and i've been using it in 8K for about a year for work to have many smaller windows that all look pretty clear. My bottleneck is probably the quest pro resolution so i'm looking forward to better headsets soon.
I chased high resolution for a while then realized my eyes are not so good. Now I just save money by using low-res displays. The same thing with my ears saved me from a creeping case of audiophilia.
article took forever to get to the bottom line. content. 8k content essentially does not exist. TV manufacturers were putting the cart before the horse.
I think it’s NHK, or one of the Japanese broadcasters anyways, that has actually been pressing for 8K since the 1990s. They didn’t have content back then and I doubt they have much today, but that’s what they wanted HD to be.
Not familiar with NHK specifically (or, to be clear, I think I am but not with enough certainty), but it really makes a lot of sense for news networks to push for 8k or even 16k at this point.
Because it is a chicken and egg thing. Nobody is going to buy an 8k TV if all the things they watch are 1440p. But, similarly, there aren't going to be widespread 8k releases if everyone is watching on 1440p screens and so forth.
But what that ALSO means is that there is no reason to justify using 8k cameras if the best you can hope for is a premium 4k stream of a sporting event. And news outlets are fairly regularly the only source of video evidence of literally historic events.
From a much more banal perspective, it is why there is a gap in TV/film where you go from 1080p or even 4k re-releases to increasingly shady upscaling of 720 or even 480 content back to everything being natively 4k. Over simplifying, it is because we were using MUCH higher quality cameras than we really should have been for so long before switching to cheaper film and outright digital sensors because "there is no point". Obviously this ALSO is dependent on saving the high resolution originals but... yeah.
it’s not exactly “there is no point”. It’s more like “the incremental benefit of filming and broadcasting in 8k does jot justify the large cost difference”.
Which, for all intents and purposes, means there is no point. Because no news network is going to respond to "Hey boss, I want us to buy a bunch of really expensive cameras that our audience will never notice because it will make our tape library more valuable. Oh, not to sell, but to donate to museums." with anything other than laughter and MAYBE firing your ass.
I’m sorry, but if we are talking about 8k viability in TVs, we are not talking about shooting in 8k for 4k delivery.
You should be pointing out that shooting in higher than 8k, so you have the freedom to crop in post, is part of the reason 8k is burdensome and expensive.
4k tvs existed before the content existed. I think the larger issue is that the difference between what is and what could be is not worth the additional expense, especially at a time when most people struggle to pay rent, food, and medicine. More people watch videos on their phones than watch broadcast television. 8k is a solution looking for a problem.
Hell I still don't own a 4k tv and don't plan to go out of my way to buy one unless the need arises. Which I don't see why I need that when a normal flat-screen looks fine to me.
I actually have some tube tvs and be thinking of just hooking my vcr back up and watching old tapes. I don't need fancy resolutions in my shows or movies.
Only time I even think of those things is with video games.
4K hardly even makes sense unless your tv is over 70" and your watching it from less than 4 feet away. I do think VR could benefit from ultra-high resolution, though.
Extensive write up on this whole issue, even includes a calculator tool.
But, basically:
Yeah, going by angular resolution, even leaving the 8K content drought aside....
8K might make sense for a computer monitor you sit about 2 feet / 0.6m away from, if the diagonal size is 35 inches / ~89cm, or greater.
Take your viewing distance up to 8 feet / 2.4m away?
Your screen diagonal now has to be about 125 inches / ~318cm, or larger, for you to be able to maybe notice a difference with a jump from 4K to 8K.
........
The largest 8K TV that I can see available for purchase anywhere near myself... that costs ~$5,000 USD... is 85 inches.
I see a single one of 98 inches that is listed for $35,000. That's the largest one I can see, but its... uh, wildly more expensive.
So with a $5,000, 85 inch TV, that works out to...
You would have to be sitting closer than about 5 feet / ~1.5 meters to notice a difference.
And that's assuming you have 20/20 vision.
........
So yeah, VR goggle displays... seem to me to be the only really possibly practical use case for 8K ... other than basically being the kind of person who owns a home with a dedicated theater room.
Choosing a new TV for your room can be a daunting challenge. The market has never been more complicated, with dozens of new models released each year and a mountain of marketing jargon to work through.
What this chart is missing is the impact of the quality of the screen and the source material being played on it.
A shit screen is a shit screen, just like a badly filmed TV show from the 80s will look like crap on anything other than an old CRT.
People buying a 4k screen from Wallmart for $200 then wondering why they cant tell its any better than their old 1080p screen.
The problem with pushing up resolution is the cost to get a good set right now is so much its a niche within a niche of people who actually want it. Even a good 4k set with proper HDR support and big enough to make a different is expensive. Even when 8k moves away from early adopter markups its still going to be expensive, especially when compared to the tat you can by at the supermarket.
It is totally true that things are even more complex than just resolution, but that is why I linked the much more exhaustive write up.
Its even more complicated in practice than all the things they bring up, they are focusing on mainly a movie watching experience, not a video game playing experience.
They do not go into LED vs QLED vs OLED vs other actual display techs, don't go into response latency times, refresh rates, as you say all the different kinds of HDR color gamut support... I am sure I am forgetting things...
Power consumption may be a significant thing for you, image quality at various viewing angles...
Oh right, FreeSync vs GSync, VRR... blargh there are so many fucking things that can be different about displays...
Not only the content doesn't exist yet, it's just not practical. Even now 4k broadcasting is rare and 4k streaming is now a premium (and not always with a good bitstream, which matters a lot more) when once was offered as a cost-free future, imagine 8k that would roughly quadruple the amount of data required to transmit it (and transmit speee is not linear, 4x the speed would probably be at least 8x the cost).
And I seriously think noone except the nerdiest of nerds would notice a difference between 4k and 8k.
Not only does it not exist, it isn't wanted. People are content watching videos on YouTube and Netflix. They don't care for 4k. Even if they pay extra for Netflix 4k (which I highly doubt they do) I still question if they are watching 4k with their bandwidth and other limiting factors, which means they're not watching 4k and are fine with it.
I don't know if it changed, but when I started looking around to replace my set about 2 years ago, it was a nightmare of marketing "gotcha"s.
Some TVs were advertising 240fps, but only had 60fps panels with special tricks to double framerate twice or something silly. Other TVs offered 120fps, but only on one HDMI port. More TVs wouldn't work without internet. Even more had shoddy UIs that were confusing to navigate and did stuff like default to their own proprietary software showing Fox News on every boot (Samsung). I gave up when I found out that most of them had abysmal latency since they all had crappy software running that messed with color values for no reason. So I just went and bought the cheapest TV at a bargain overstock store. Days of shopping time wasted, and a customer lost.
If I were shown something that advertised with 8K at that point, I'd have laughed and said it was obviously a marketing lie like everything else I encountered.
I'll consider you lucky. I've had many experiences with their hardware across different segments (phones, tablets, laptops, mainboards, NICs, displays, GPUs).
They're an atrocious vendor with extremely poor customer support (and shitty SW practicies for UMA systems and motherboards).
I don't think many people have been as unfortunate as I have with them, the general consensus is they mark their products up considerably relative to competition (particularly mainboards & GPUs).
To be fair, their contemporaries arent much butter.
ASUS used to be the goat brand. They have since enshittified, and the biggest hit was their customer service. It's 100% ass now. The product itself is really hit or miss now too.
It's been observed that the porn industry is often one of the first adapters of new media tech before they become commonplace, but I'm not sure some things need to be shown in that high a resolution.
It's not even really true; it's a salacious fact that was passed around and everyone agreed. For example, there's no real evidence that VHS won over Betamax because of porn. Everyone accepted that fact uncritically.
There was a while that I exclusively used apps where I could lower the bitrate of music I listened to. Because I'm not rocking crazy good headsets and such for when I needed it, and I really saw no reason to use up larger amounts of data when I was listening to music over the sound of a lawnmower walking around the yard for an hour. If I was going to leave music on and not have wifi, it just didn't seem worth it.
Also if you had poor bandwidth in an area, it plays better
Yup - not a solution for everyone but there are typically Quality Of Service (QOS) services on routers that will do something similar - where it will target a certain threshold.
I'm happy with 1080p content. I have a 4k TV and from the couch I can't see a difference. I would be perfectly happy with a bargain 4k TV, bigger the better.
My TV is also 4K but my amplifier which eats all the inputs can only do 1080p. 4k quality on that 65" is better, but not by that much that I'd throw 500+€ for a new amp since the current one works just fine and it fulfils all my needs on a TV/media set.
I’d buy one if it came with every David Attenborough (or similar) nature documentary included. I don’t need 8k for games or movies or anything else but I’ll watch the shit out of whatever high budget nature documentaries are produced and put my nose against the screen to see the critter details.
I have a 3080 and have all frame gen tech turned off, and still, almost every game I play can hit 60+ fps and 2k resolution, a lot can do 144. I get your point, but it's greatly exaggerated.
Speaking as a developer; I've a 4K screen which is amazing for having loads of source files open at the same time, and also works for old or undemanding games. Glorious Eggroll's version of Proton has all the FSR patches in it, so you can 'upscale anything'. Almost any modern game, I'm going to be running at lower resolution, usually either 1440p or the slightly odd 2954 x 1662. Generally, highest-quality graphics and upscaling looks better than medium-quality native to me, for games where I have to compromise.
I would be interested in an 8K display for coding, as long as the price is reasonable. I'm not spending five grand, that would be crazy. But I'd still be upscaling for playing games, as basically no GPU could drive that many pixels.
I don't want 8K. I want my current 4K streaming to have less pixilation. I want my sound to be less compressed. Make them closer to Ultra BluRay disc quality before forcing 8K down our throats... unless doing that gives us better 4K overall.
Increasing resolution but keeping the same bitrate still improves the image quality, unless the bitrate was extremely low in the first place. Especially with modern codecs
20mbps 4k looks a lot better than 20mbps 1080p with AV1
Yeah 4K means jack if it’s compressed to hell, if you end up with pixels being repeated 4x to save on storage and bandwidth, you’ve effectively just recreated 1080p without upscaling.
Just like internet. I’d rather have guaranteed latency than 5Gbps.
Bingo, if I were still collecting DVDs/HD DVDs like I was in the 90's, it might be an issue. Streaming services and other online media routed through the TV can hardly buffer to keep up with play speed at 720, so what the fuck would I want with a TV that can show a higher quality of picture which it can also not display without stutter-buffering the whole of a 1:30:00 movie?
I still use a ten year old 1080p Sony TV, and I’ve yet to see a new <$1k TV with a nicer picture than what I have. Granted I don’t really consume any higher resolution content anyway 🤷♂️
I like how the article immediately tries placing the blame on the consumer. When in reality it’s the companies putting the cart before the horse and then being shocked when it doesn’t work out.
Hopefully, just all 4K panels get replaced with 8K panels and it doesn't cost anything extra and in like 5 years when the rest of the technology catches up and especially video bitrates are increased then the transition can happen seamlessly but we're not going to pay for it's, it's just going to have to be a free upgrade. This is really the last doubling we need for the human vision system and it is already pretty far into the diminishing returns aspects. Since we are going to need 8K for VR that doesn't suck, might as well make that the standard for the next century and we won't ever have to bother with 16K panels
Yet. The capitalist factories have to spin, they will find a reason/way to "encourage" another standard change, only it might take a few years. Lucas will re-release the original trilogy in a new cut he always envisioned, you'll be able to observe blackheads on your fav politicians nose, but it will happen, as it always did in the media buisnesses. Maybe it won't be screens, but laser projectors (id rather expect that), but 8k and then whatever-faptylion-k will come in into standard eventually because capitalism demands constant expansion.
8K content is too storage hungry. My pirate ship is already bursting at the seams with some 4K but mostly 1080. I have 130TB of media, if it was in 8K I would need a water cooled server farm.
That's the REAL reason for lack of 8K interest, the pirates are not demanding it. Not until 100TB drives are available for a reasonable price.
The real reason for lack of interest is streaming quality of 4k has been getting worse for years, and is still like 1/10th the quality of 4k BluRay, with enormous levels of compression and artifacts.
8k requires 4x the data. We all know that means every subscription would charge at least 2x more to maintain profit margins of unlimited growth for vulture capitalism, and they'd skimp on the extra data too; leaving users with nothing better than the current 4k.
That's true, and to add to that, most mobile phone and many land Internet based connections are not unlimited and have caps. Nobody wants to stream a few 8k movies and use up their entire monthly cap in one shot.
-speaking as a US user, many countries offer unlimited as standard but not the evil empire.
If your phone is 1080p you won't be being served 8K video on any streaming service. 8K phone screens aren't coming any time soon, as even 4K is overkill and rarely done - and even then, netflix etc still don't stream 4K to them.
Yeah, storage/bandwidth is the overall limiting factor regardless for 8k. Also, most peoples xp with 4k is streaming, so there would likely be 100x more of a market for increasing bitrate from the current "compressed as all fuck" up to 4k Bluray bitrate, before anyone cares about 8k... but of course, that isn't something that TV manufacturers can control or use to sell more products.
Wait what? Are you implying that if there was demand for 8k content, then pirates would make it available? The content has to exist in order for pirates to release it.
I can download a remux of the 4K Lawrence of Arabia transfer because it was filmed in 70mm and the studio transferred it at 4K. It’s 70mm film, so it’s ~8-12K equivalent, but to actually get that resolution they would have to scan that film at that resolution, then go through the whole video workflow, color correction, whatever tf idk I’m not a video engineer, at that resolution, and render out the final version at that resolution.
Pirates aren’t doing that, they’re ripping physical or digital releases. And there’s no point in downloading an 8K upscale of a 4K release, just let your TV or your Shield or Infuse handle the upscaling.
I am saying that the ability to store the content is needed before people will be able to make the demand for it. So take streaming platforms for instance. They won't want to build more server farms and instead just upgrade what they have. So once 100TB drives are readily available they will start upgrading and then influence the media companies to start scanning at 8k. The people scanning the damn movies will need to store it too. You know whoever is the first to start offering the content be it Netflix or Disney will start a chain reaction and then 8k will take off but I'm sure it will be a slower build up compared to 4k.
Ah ok I see what you were saying. Honestly I think we’ll see physical media first, like multilayer Blu-ray Discs or something, that drive the initial adoption, just like with 4K. One people get a taste of it, demand will force streamers to offer it at a premium tier, until it eventually just becomes normalized.
But yeah I think it’s gonna be way slower than the buildup to 4K also.
How about uncompressed 4k before going to even more compression 8k. I have seen uncompressed 8k content on an 8k TV. I couldn't tell the difference between it and a good quality 4k picture, and I'm admittedly a quality snob. I can tell the difference in 1080 vs 4k pretty easily even on cheap tvs, it's just virtually non existent at 8k vs 4k in tv sizes up to 80 inch beyond viewing inches away from the screen.
Maybe that's the point I meant to make clearer. 8k, even compressed would take more bandwidth, or it's going to be compressed so much that it totally defeats the purpose of 8k content.
No, I wanted to make a different point: that uncompressed video would be unreasonably huge. Nobody uses it. Regardless of the resolution, a good compressed video looks basically the same but it is hundreds of times smaller.
You should ask for less compressed video. Uncompressed is just not worth it.
My viewing position is about 330cm/11ft from the wall where my tv is mounted. That works out to roughly 80” television for 4K viewing pleasure. rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-size/…
8k would be ridiculous, and the compression would be a significant factor.
Remember when ISP companies went after people who used over 500GB in a month? I remember.
Choosing a new TV for your room can be a daunting challenge. The market has never been more complicated, with dozens of new models released each year and a mountain of marketing jargon to work through.
Also have you seen 720HD with 10 bit color? Looks better than 1080p when it was released. Seen 1080p 14 bit color? Looks better than 4k when it came out.
One thing, my current 4k TV/monitor does a pretty nice job upscaling 1080p. It, of course, doesn't look as good as native 4k, but it looks considerably better than 1080p not upscaled. So even without native 8k content, there is some value in being able to upscale 4k content to 8k.
I would be fine with an 8k TV if there was 8k content and they were affordable. I haven’t purchased a TV in over a decade however and my TVs all work fine so I’m not even in the market
I just want an affordable dumb TV. No on-board apps whatsoever. No smart anything. No Ethernet port, no WiFi. I have my own stuff to plug into HDMI already.
I’m aware of commercial displays. It just sucks that I have to pay way more to have fewer features now.
You can have a smart TV but never set up any of the smart features. I have two LG OLED TVs but rarely touch anything on the TV itself. I've got Nvidia Shields for streaming and turning it on or off also turns the TV on or off. Same with my Xbox.
I just need to figure out if I can use CEC with my SFF gaming PC (so that turning it on also turns the TV on, and turning it off turns the TV off), then I won't have to touch the TV's remote again.
Ethernet port or wifi are good for controlling the TV using something like Home Assistant. I have my TVs on a separate isolated VLAN with no internet access. I have a automation that runs when the TV turns on, to also turn on some LED lights behind the TV.
So people in rural areas without good internet, or places where the network is airgapped, can't use them at all? Seems like there's be a way around it.
Fine, but I don’t want the smart features to be installed at all in the first place.
I don’t want a WiFi antenna or Ethernet port in there.
I know that sounds ridiculous, since I can “simply not use them,” but I want to spend my money on an appliance, not a consumer data collection tool.
I don’t want them to have any of my data, and I don’t want to spend money “voting” with my dollar for these data collection devices.
Some of these devices have even been known to look for other similar devices within WiFi range, and phone home that way (i.e., send analytics data via a neighbor’s connected TV as a proxy).
Fuuuck that. I don’t want my dollar supporting this, at all, plain and simple. And I don’t want to pay a premium for the privilege of buying a technically simpler device. I do, but it’s bullshit, and I’m unhappy about it.
I totally get where you're coming from. It's hard to find devices like that. I think the issue is that regular customers are demanding the smart features, and using them without caring about privacy aspects.
Some of these devices have even been known to look for other similar devices within WiFi range, and phone home that way (i.e., send analytics data via a neighbor’s connected TV as a proxy).
Ummm, wut? I'm going to need some quality sources to back this claim up.
Yea, this paragraph feels like fear mongering. I'm not saying OP didn't see that somewhere, but from a tech standpoint, the TV still has to authenticate with any device it's trying to piggy back off the wifi for. Perhaps if there were any open network in range it could theoretically happen, but I'm guessing that it's not.
I do remember reading that some smart TV was able to use the speakers as a mic to record in room audio and pass that out if connected. It may have been a theoretical thing but it might have been a zero day I read about. It's been some years now.
Actually, it's true. Amazon's sidewalk works in a similar way, where if the sensor is not connected to the internet, it will talk to local Echo devices like your speakers that are connected to the internet and pass the data to Amazon through your device's network.
TVs will look for open Wi-Fi networks. And failing that, they could very well do this exact same thing.
Edit: The way it works is that the echo devices contain a separate radio that works over the 868 to 915 megahertz industrial scientific and medical band, so the sensor communicates with your echo that way, and then your echo communicates it to the network as if it's coming from the echo itself, not another device. So the sensor gets connected to the network without your network realizing that it's actually a third-party device. To your network, the only thing it sees is the Echo, but to the Echo, it sees both your network, which it's connected to, and the sensor, so it's acting as a relay.
I forgot the Sidewalk is a thing. While that tech does kind of do what OP was saying, Sidewalk is limited to only Amazon Sidewalk compatible devices, like the echo line and ring. Just at a quick glance, there are no smart TVs that can connect to that network.
That said, it is an opt out service, which it awful. No smart TVs will connect, but I'd recommend disabling for anyone that uses Amazon devices.
Some of these devices have even been known to look for other similar devices within WiFi range, and phone home that way (i.e., send analytics data via a neighbor’s connected TV as a proxy).
I know that sounds ridiculous, since I can “simply not use them,” but I want to spend my money on an appliance, not a consumer data collection tool.
For what it's worth you're actually spending the manufacturer's money (or at least some of their profit margin) on a data collection device that they won't get to use.
Smart devices are cheaper because the data collection subsidizes them.
They are called "Digital Signage Panels" and they cost an arm and a leg.
The data collection subsidises the cost of your TV, so that brings the cost down. Also, digital signage panels are rated for 24/7 use, which significantly increases their cost.
I blacklist the TVs Ethernet and WiFi MAC addresses. I strongly encourage using a computer, Apple TV, or anything that can’t fingerprint everything you use your tv for.
I haven't seen this mentioned but apart from 8K being expensive, requiring new production pipelines, unweildley for storage and bandwidth, unneeded, and not fixing g existing problems with 4K, it requires MASSIVE screens to reap benefits.
There are several similar posts, but suffice to say, 8K content is only perceived by average eyesight at living room distances when screens are OVER 100 inches in diameter at the bare minimum. That's 7 feet wide.
Choosing a new TV for your room can be a daunting challenge. The market has never been more complicated, with dozens of new models released each year and a mountain of marketing jargon to work through.
Not sure where 1440p would land, but after using one for a while, I was going to upgrade my monitor to 4k but realized I'm not disappointed with my current resolution at all and instead opted for a 1440p ultrawide and haven't regretted it at all.
My TV is 4k, but I have no intention of even seriously looking at anything 8k.
Screen specs seem like a mostly solved problem. Would be great if focus could shift to efficiency improvements instead of adding more unnecessary power. Actually, boot time could be way better, too (ie get rid of the smart shit running on a weak processor, emphasis on the first part).
8K content is only perceived by average eyesight at living room distances when screens are OVER 100 inches in diameter at the bare minimum.
65-75" tv's are pretty much the standard these days. I've got a 75" and I'll want the next one I replace it with to be even bigger, so 100"-ish will be what I'll be after.
I like a big screen for gaming too, but just wanted to mention it also means you'll do worse at games. You can look it up, but a smaller screen gives you better performance, because your brain can properly see everything that's happening on screen at once.
Unless your screen is significantly far away that is.
Thats only if you’re sitting somewhere where you can’t see the whole screen at once. I can see everything that’s happening on my big tv. I’ve found I do worse on a smaller tv/monitor, moved my gaming pc from my 144hz 34” monitor to the 75” 120hz tv and my results are much better.
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Here in Australia, they are almost gone. Disney doesn't release anymore and other studios only release the biggest of titles, smaller movies get less and less releases. Some TV shows only get DVD. Its got me importing discs for things I really want and importing a lot of stuff from the high seas
The 4k you find on streaming services can't really be compared to the 4k you find on Blu-ray. It's a different league. Turns out bitrate actually matters
I can't see ever owning an 8k display unless it's like 200 inches... The ones that are available now are too expensive to be a justifiable purchase and there's not really an abundance of content that takes advantage of the format.
What's the point? Even if you pay extra for "4K" streaming, it's compressed to hell and the quality is no better than 1080p. What are you going to even watch on an 8K TV?
Most Americans are out of money and can't find good jobs. We are clinging to our old TVs and cars and computers and etc. for dear life, as we hope for better days.
And what can you even watch in true 8K right now? Some YouTube videos?
If I were in the market for a new monitor and I could get an 8k monitor for under $1000 I'd consider it, but right now if one of my monitors broke I'd just be getting another 4k to replace it. The price isn't worth it for me to have high DPI.
For TV my only justification for my 4k TV is that it was free.
But but but, don't you want better hardware so we can read your brain waves to automatically show you something you're in the mood to watch while we save that info and sell it to someone who wants to control your nervous system later?
It creates more problems than it solves. You would need an order of magnitude more processing power to play a game on it. Personally I would prefer 4K at a higher framerate. Even 1080 if it improves response.
Video in 8K are massive. You need better codecs to handle them, and they aren't that widely supported. Storage is more expensive than it was a decade ago.
Also, there is no content. Nobody wants to store and transmit such massive amounts of data over the internet.
HDMI cables will fail sooner at higher resolutions. That 5 year old cable will begin dropping out when you try it at 8k.
Yeah, legitimate 8K use cases are ridiculously niche, and I mean... really only have value if you're talking about an utterly massive display, probably around 90 inches or larger, and even then in a pretty small room.
The best use cases I can think of are for games where you're already using DLSS, and can just upscale from the same source resolution to 8K rather than 4K? Maybe something like an advanced CRT filter that can better emulate a real CRT with more resolution to work with, where a pixel art game leaves you with lots of headroom for that effect? Maybe there's value in something like an emulated split screen game, to effectively give 4 players their own 4K TV in an N64 game or something?
But uh... yeah, all use cases that are far from the average consumer. Most people I talk to don't even really appreciate 1080p->4K, and 4X-ing your resolution again is a massive processing power ask in a world where you can't just... throw together multiple GPUs in SLI or something. Even if money is no object, 8K in mainline gaming will require some ugly tradeoffs for the next several years, and probably even forever if devs keep pushing visuals and targeting upscaled 4K 30/60 on the latest consoles.
4K for me as a developer means that I can have a couple of source files and a browser with the API documentation open at the same time. I reckon I could use legitimately use an 8K screen - get a terminal window or two open as well, keep an eye on builds and deployments while I'm working on a ticket.
Now yes - gaming and watching video at 8K. That's phenomenally niche, and very much a case of diminishing returns. But some of us have to work for a living as well, alas, and would like them pixels.
Even as a dev, I use a 32" QHD screen for programming. If I went 4K, I would need to use 150% scaling, and that breaks a LOT of stuff.
Everything is built for 100% scaling. Every time I've plugged my PC into a 4K display I've regretted it. It go to 30Hz (on HDMI) or glitch out or something. Even if it doesn't, it's never as smooth.
I have a 43" 4K and at that physical size display scaling at 100% is appropriate (despite windows trying to run it at 300% out of the box) and it is legitimately useful. Its effectively four 1080p screens in a grid with no bezel between.
Good point, 4K text for programming is pretty fantastic, if you don't mind small text and use a big monitor, I could see 8K bringing some worthwhile clarity improvements to some productivity workflows. It's probably better for monitors than it is for TVs.
A couple things - every jump like that in resolution is about a 10% increase in size at the source level. So 2K is ~250GB, 4K is ~275GB. Haven't had to deal with 8K myself, yet, but it would be at ~300GB. And then you compress all that for placea like netflix and the size goes down drastically. Add to that codec improvements over time (like x264 -> x265) and you might actually end up with an identical size compressed while carrying 4x more pixels.
HDMI is digital. It doesn't start failing because of increased bandwidth; there's nothing consumable. It either works or it doesn't.
So many things have reached not only diminishing returns, but no returns whatsoever. I don't have a single problem that more technology will solve.
I just don't care about any of this technical shit anymore. I only have two eyes, and there's only 24 hours in a day. I already have enough entertainment in perfectly acceptable quality, with my nearly 15 year old setup.
I've hit that same wall. I'm perfectly happy with a $300 smartphone, because it does absolutely everything I need to do, fast enough to not make me want to throw it across the room, and well enough that I don't notice the difference between it and a high-end device.
Do I notice the difference after three or four years of having the device and finally upgrading it to a new device in that price range? Sure, I notice it. But day to day use, I don't notice it and that's what matters.
I don't understand most of the things I used to enjoy as a kid. I went from radio to cassette to CD to MiniDisc to MP3s. Now I'm supposed to endlessly change things around to keep up with media players and codecs and whatevers. No thanks.
I used to enjoy programming and tinkering with computers and microcontrollers.
Now I have to be an expert in 15 unrelated fields and softwares because even a simple job of turning a button press into a single output pulse is a weeks-long nightmare of IDEs and OSes and embedded Linuxes and 32 bit microcontrollers and environments, none of which are clear and straightforward, and all have subtle inter-dependencies.
So to turn on a LED with a switch now requires a multi-core 16GB main PC (so limited! You need more!) so I can open a multi-GB IDE (that can support every language ever invented) that requires an SSD just to be able to navigate the 35 windows it opens in less than an hour, so I can use AI to copy-paste hundreds of lines of boiler plate code I don't understand, so I can type a few lines of code?
And that's not counting all the new companies and architectures.
I also think that 1080 is fine for normal living room distance. In my case, though, I use a 42" 4K as a monitor, where I have the equivalent of 4 1080 monitors. No gaming, but for my use it's more practical than multiple monitors.
If I was in the market for a new TV I'd probably go for an OLED assuming image burn-in is no longer an issue with them, but I'll happily use my 15 year old LED TV for as long as it lasts. I can tell the difference in contrast when side by side with LED/LCD but in normal daily use I don't pay any attention to it.
Fun fact; Here in Brazil, the cheaper tv models being sold are 720p, and a lot of people buy them and don't even know what video resolution is, neither they feel like missing something lol
In any developing country with low incomes but heavy social media presence and smartphone usage, most people care more about the content and how much they're actually getting entertained than bothering about quality and size.
Yeah, and the television is far better there than it is here in America! For instance, you have live action shows based on timeless children's novels instead of the same things rehashed time and again, like here in America! 🙁
I have 2 4K tvs, one used as a monitor. I'm now rewatching some 70's - 80's shows. When the intro starts, I'm acutely aware of the low res, but as soon as the show starts, I get into the content, and I really don't notice the resolution.
If you focus on the resolution instead of the content, maybe the content is not that engaging.
I just run mine without ever connecting it to the internet. I run an Apple TV (shock, walled garden!), as it is the only device I've seen that consistently matches frame rates properly on the output.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
That and the motion smoothing that looks really good on the display videos in the shop where it's always splashing paint, or dripping honey, or tracking shots of trees, but it makes movies and TV shows look terrible, like the behind the scenes footage before they put all the effects in.
Not really, there isn't much of a point in viewing your images at native resolution while editing. In fact in lightroom when you're viewing the entire image you're always looking at downscaled version anyway for performance reasons and need to punch in to see actual pixel level detail.
Not exactly surprising, considering the TV’s and monitors are outpacing the contemt creators and gaming development.
A lot of gamers don’t even have GPU’s that can crank out 4K at the frame rates most monitors are capable of. So 8K won’t do much for you. And movies and regular TV? Man, I’m happy there’s 4K available.
A 4K screen will be more than most folks need right now, so buying an 8K at the moment is just wasted money. Like buying a Ferrari and only ever driving 25 mph.
Also to add to this. 8k sounds 2x as large as 4k. But that isn't true. 8k is four times the pixels of 4k, so can you imagine what kind of GPU or content stream you will need to make sense...
Also I think the improvements in HDR and brightness recently are more substantial than the update to 8K. At normal viewing TV distance you’d be hard pressed to see the individual pixels, even on a 1080p screen.
Even for PCs there isn’t much reason to go about 2k screens (1440p).
I work in tech doing performance, memory management, and developer workflow tooling and automation for a large 3D Rendering/Creation tool.
Being able to throw a long setup doc, or a large class file on a 4k portrait monitor allows me to read things through with a ton of context and far less scrolling.
It's also useful for putting two window tiles that have related content, or one is a reference content.
I currently have a tie-fighter monitor setup (2x4k portrait on either side of a ultrawide) and will put comms and email/calendar on my left monitor, core work in the center, and overflow reference/research on the right.
It's less hectic for personal use, but I still use all the space.
It's just a race. Perhaps you don't need the biggest and newest available thing, but you also will subconsciously discard what's "less" than what you already have or what's normal as obsolete. This creates an engine for a race, where good faith players can't compete.
Like with web browsers, a hypertext networked system even with advanced formatting, executable content and sandboxing can be so simple, that there'd be hundreds of independent implementations. But if you always race the de-facto standards with the speed you the monopolist group can maintain, and good faith competitors can't, then you'll always be the "best".
The Matrix movie actually talks about that, with its "there's no spoon" moment. It's not a usual market game, it's a meta-market game. And most people don't understand the rules of the meta layer, being sitting ducks there.
Nobody can compete with the industry leaders on their field. And unlike with steel or gasoline or even embedded electronics production, there's no relativity in the field at all. But the new possible fields are endless. Everyone can discover new pastures here, because it's not discovery, it's conception. But since that's counterintuitive, and the network effects work on psychology too, most people are not trying.
It's a bit like military logic, there were Western "controlled escalation" doctrines, because slow gradual escalation works in favor of the side with most resources, thus the West, and the Soviet "scientific-technical revolution" doctrines, which despite sounding stupid is a correct name, when you're the second in the race, your best chance lies in being unpredictable, unreasonable and changing the rules. One of the reasons Soviet doctrines gained such a crappy reputation as compared to Western ones is that, well, they are kinda similar to preventively going all out guns-a-blazing before you are forced to fight by the enemy's rules, which requires willpower from those making the decisions (and also capability to, well, do anything scientific and technical, LOL), and which means you prepare for some sort of general battle (that be nuclear war, or short highly concentrated offensives, such stuff) at the expense of "aggressive negotiations" scenarios. So - in our time anyone trying to heal the Silicon Valley's effects is playing USSR and can only expect anything good from breaking rules.
I hear anything at or above 8k resolution negates the need for anti aliasing entirely... But I feel that my pc would would be running at or around 10-15 fps for most games I would care about anti aliasing on.
Nice in theory, definitely can't handle that many pixels in reality.
Half the games I play are 2D, the other half are not overly demanding either. Wonder what you would need to run deep rock galactic at 8k 144hz? Probably one of the more demanding games I have played lately. But if I was to spend money on better equipment for that game it would be sound equipment.
I think 8k has a use, just not in consumer televisions for things like Netflix or gaming. 8k's real use is most likely in the medical field where high high high high detail is extremely important.
Why would the medical field need 8k screens? They can just zoom in on a lower res display y'know? Nobody is looking at a screen with a magnifying glass
I think a possible application for 8k displays is the huge displays where the viewer is extremely close to the display. But that would still just be the same pixel density as a lower res display.
Another area I think high pixel density might be useful for is patterning. Like PCB manufacturing and other photoresist stuff. But that's a problem already solved by much cheaper technologies
I'd rather the doctor performing life-saving surgery not have screen resolution being an inhibition. I'd rather they have the best tools and resources available.
But the doctor needs to see every quark and gluon in your molecules! How did they perform heart transplants in the 1960s! Please don't get in the way of technophiles inventing all kinds of fantasy scenarios to justify their hoarder-like behavior.
High resolution imaging is important not hi res viewers.
You're probably right in like 99.999999999999999999999999999999999% of cases, but I'd want to ensure we could save that extra 0.000000000000000000000000000000001%. I'd sacrifice anything and everything for just one more day with my loved ones. So, its probably overkill, but I'd rather screen resolution not being the thing that costs me time with those I care about.
Some surgeries don't open someone completely up and rely on imaging machines (like when they put a stint in a heart). Also some surgeries are done remotely. So high detail can be important.
I think you've missed the point. At a certain pixel per inch, your eye cannot see more detail or discern any difference, so it's completely useless to have more if you're not able to pick up on it.
Because medicine is a field that seems to most benefit from high technology and, when a loved one of mine is treated by a doctor, I'd rather use a cannon to swat a mosquito.
Nonsense. Medicine is a mish-mash of reductive thinking and conservatism. You may be thinking of outlier cases, but the day to day bread and butter of medicine is 19th century with dipping mustards. Your attitude is why we end up with antibiotic resistant bacteria. Do you also drive a tank to the grocery store in case of a fender bender?
The primary difference there will be in camera quality then, not monitor resolution - and if the doctor needs to see something in higher detail, they move the camera closer. Cameras that small aren't going to be 4K anyways, the sensor density doesn't get that high.
Another possibility for why consumers don't seem to care about 8k is the common practice by content owners and streaming services charging more for access to 4k over 1080p.
Normalizing that practice invites the consumer to more closely scrutinize the probable cost of something better than 4k compared to the probable return.
I was goofing on the old legend of Bill Gates saying "640K ought to be enough for anybody.” which is questionable he said it, but that's for another thread, another time.
I just wanted to make the point that the difference between 1080p and 4k isn't massive, so the extra pixels w/ 8k likewise won't be massive. Going from standard def (480i/p?) to HD was a huge jump, and even 720p to 1080p is a big improvement, but going from 1080p to 4k isn't nearly as big of a leap. We're well into diminishing returns.
The only time I care enough about higher than 1080p displays is on my computer monitors so I can multitask on one display without UI elements getting mangled. If I'm playing a game or watching a video, I really can't tell between 1080 and 4k
Sure. I'm more talking about TVs though, where things like cinematography and HDR are much more important than resolution. 1080p is more than sufficient for that, and 4k content is sometimes hard to find.
I personally find having two monitors more useful than one higher-resolution monitor, though ultrawide monitors are also nice (have one at work). The vertical resolution isn't a big deal for me, since I mostly care about tiling windows next to each other.
The difference between 1080 and 4K is pretty visible, but the difference between 4K and 8K, especially from across a room, is so negligible that it might as well be placebo.
Also the fact that 8K content takes up a fuckload more storage space. So, there's that, too.
Even 1080p isn't hugely different from 4k in many cases. Yeah, you can probably notice it, but both are fantastic resolutions. I've had a 4k TV for years, and I can count the number of times I've actually watched 4k content on it on two hands because it generally isn't worth the storage space or extra cost.
I find that it really depends on the content on the size of the display.
The larger the display, the more you'd benefit from having a higher resolution.
For instance, a good quality 1080p stream vs a highly compressed 4k stream probably won't look much different. But a "raw" 4k stream looks incredible... think of the demos you see in stores showing off 4k TVs... that quality is noticeable.
Put the same content on a 50"+ screen, and you'll see the difference.
When I had Netflix, watching in 4k was great, but to me, having HDR is "better".
On a computer monitor, there's a case for high-resolution displays because they allow you to fit more on the screen without making the content look blurry. But on a TV, 4k + HDR is pretty much peak viewing for most people.
That's not to say that if you create content, 8k is useless. It can be really handy when cropping or re-framing if needed, assuming the desired output is less than 8k.
think of the demos you see in stores showing off 4k TVs… that quality is noticeable.
Sure. But remember that much of the time, the content is tuned for what the display is good at, which won't necessarily reflect what you want to watch on it (i.e. they're often bright colors with frequent color changes, whereas many movies are dark with many slow parts). At least at the start, many 4k TVs had a worse picture than higher end 1080p TVs, and that's before HDR was really a thing.
So yeah, it highly depends on the content. As you mentioned, in many cases, 1080p HDR will be better than 4k non-HDR. Obviously 4k HDR on a good display is better than 1080p HDR on a good display, but the difference is much less than many people claim it to be, especially at a typical TV viewing distance (in our case, 10-15 ft/3-5m).
computer monitor
I find the sweet spot to be 1440p. 4k is nicer, but the improvement over 1440p is much less than 1440p vs 1080p. My desktop monitor is a 27" 1440p monitor w/ approx 109 ppi, and my work laptop is a Macbook Pro w/ 3024x1964 resolution w/ approx 254 ppi, more than double. And honestly, they're comparable. Text and whatnot is certainly sharper on the nicer display, but there are certainly diminishing returns.
That said, if I were to watch movies frequently on my computer, I'd prefer a larger 4k monitor so 1080p content upscales better. But for games and normal computer stuff, 1440p is plenty.
Given that I don't find a ton of value in 4k over 1080p, 8k will be even more underwhelming.
think of the demos you see in stores showing off 4k TVs… that quality is noticeable.
Because stores use a high quality feed and force you to stand withing 4ft of the display. There is a whole science to how Best Buy manipulates TV sales. They will not let you adjust TV picture settings on lower margin TVs.
Yes, obviously, and consumers who are buying such high-end displays should do their best to provide the highest quality source to play back on those displays.
Distance from the display is important, too. On a small TV, you'll be close to it, but resolution won't matter as much.
But from across the room, you want a higher resolution display up to a certain point, or else you'll see large pixels, and that looks terrible.
Personally, going with a 4k TV was a big leap, but the addition of HDR and an OLED display (for black blacks) had the most impact.
True. Our TV is 10-15 ft/3-5m away on a ~60in screen, and at that distance, the difference is noticable, but not significant. We have a 40" screen with much closer viewing distance (usually 5-8 ft/~2m), and we definitely notice the difference there.
If I was watching movies at a desk w/ a computer monitor, I'd certainly notice 1080p vs 4k, provided the screen is large enough. In our living room with the couch much further from the screen, the difference is much less important.
I am a filmmaker and have shot in 6k+ resolution since 2018. The extra pixels are great for the filmmaking side. Pixel binning when stepping down resolutions allows for better noise, color reproduction, sharpened details, and great for re-framing/cropping. 99% of my clients want their stuff in 1080p still! I barely even feel the urge to jump up to 4k unless the quality of the project somehow justifies it. Images have gotten to a good place. Detail won’t provide much more for human enjoyment. I hope they continue to focus on dynamic range, HDR, color accuracy, motion clarity, efficiency, etc. I won’t say no when we step up to 8k as an industry but computing as a whole is not close yet.
6K and 8K is great for editing, just like how 96 KHz 32+ bit and above is great for editing. But it's meaningless for watching and listening (especially for audio, you can't hear the difference above 44khz 16 bit). When editing you'll often stack up small artifacts, which can be audible or visible if editing at the final resolution but easy to smooth over if you're editing at higher resolutions.
Imagine you're finishing in 8k, so you want to shoot higher resolution to give yourself some options in reframing and cropping? I don't think Red, Arri, or Panavision even makes a cinema camera with a resolution over 8k. I think Arri is still 4k max. You'd pretty much be limited to Blackmagic cameras for 12k production today.
Plus the storage requirements for keeping raw footage in redundancy. Easy enough for a studio, but we're YEARS from 8k being a practical resolution for most filmmakers.
My guess is most of the early consumer 8k content will be really shoddy AI upscaled content that can be rushed to market from film scans.
There is also a 17k blackmagic coming out! The high resolution sensors they use aren’t a standard RGB pixel layout though so it’s not a great direct comparison. Like you said though, there’s no pipeline or good workflow for 8k in the slightest. Will take years if the industry decides to push for it
film scanning at 4k res already reveals the granular structure of film, at 8k it's going to become hard to ignore. And you're spot on - they'll do crappy 8k upres garbage for ages before the storage and streaming become practical.
Well the good thing is info storage cost and processing power tends to increase over time, so that’s one side of their argument handled; and things tend to keep progressing technologically over time, so I’d assume 8k would eventually replace 4k, and so on and so on; but the human eye does have a limit to what it can resolve- so at some point 2d images will probably just be as good as we need them to be
Yeah. Another one for me was Deadpool, because the texture of his outfit actually feels real on the 4K disc in a way that it doesn’t in HD.
Whenever I see people point at math equations “proving” that it’s impossible to tell the difference from a comfortable viewing distance, I think of Deadpool’s contours.
Can I identify the individual pixels in HD? Nope. Does it make a difference? Yes definitely.
For what content? Video gaming (GPUs) has barely gotten to 4k. Movies? 4k streaming is a joke; better off with 1080 BD. If you care about quality go physical... UHD BD is hard to find and you have to wait and hunt to get them at reasonable prices... And these days there are only a couple UHD BD Player mfg left.
It's such a shame that UHD isn't easier to find. Even the ones you can find are poorly mastered half the time. But a good UHD on an OLED is chef's kiss just about the closest you can get to having a 35mm reel/projector at home.
You are absolutely on point with 4k streaming being a joke. Most 4k streams are 8-20 Mbps. A UHD runs at 128 Mbps.
Most 4k streams are 8-20 Mbps. A UHD runs at 128 Mbps.
Bitrate is only one variable in overall perceived quality. There are all sorts of tricks that can significantly reduce file size (and thus bitrate of a stream) without a perceptible loss of quality. And somewhat counterintuitively, the compression tricks work a lot better on higher resolution source video, which is why each quadrupling in pixels (doubling height and width) doesn't quadruple file size.
The codec matters (h.264 vs h.265/HEVC vs VP9 vs AV1), and so do the settings actually used to encode. Netflix famously is willing to spend a lot more computational power on encoding, because they have a relatively small number of videos and many, many users watching the same videos. In contrast, YouTube and Facebook don't even bother re-encoding into a more efficient codec like AV1 until a video gets enough views that they think they can make up the cost of additional processing with the savings of lower bandwidth.
Video encoding is a very complex topic, and simple bitrate comparisons only barely scratch the surface in perceived quality.
That's the dumbest part of it all is that pirates seriously get the best movie/TV experience of anyone. I mean, maybe if you spend a shitton on DVD and BluRays to rip you can match that experience, but even that can be legally dubious depending on the jurisdiction
It's because for the Average Joe, having a TV box at the end of your driveway that has the latest big number on it is important. It's how they gain their identity. Do not upset them for obvious reasons.
Bro I honest to God can't see the difference between 1080 and 4k, you could put them both next to me and I'd struggle to point out which is which. We don't need 8k. Enough is enough
You could probably see the difference on a big enough TV. The kind of thing you only see in home theaters. I'm not sure you could make a big enough TV for 8k to matter.
Not just size of TV but quality of TV. Not all 4k panels are the same. Spend lots of money on a kickass OLED TV and you'll see the difference between 1080p and 4k. Assuming both sources are of high quality of course. Comparing a high quality 1080p vs a low quality 4k isn't enough.
Like watching a movie in 720p vs 1080p in the notebook, you don't see the difference. Once you try the same in a TV you notice how the 720p looks like shit.
As someone who stupidly spent the last 20 or so years chasing the bleeding edge of TVs and A/V equipment, GOOD.
High end A/V is an absolute shitshow. No matter how much you spend on a TV, receiver, or projector, it will always have some stupid gotcha, terrible software, ad-laden interface, HDMI handshaking issue, HDR color problem, HFR sync problem or CEC fight. Every new standard (HDR10 vs HDR10+, Dolby Vision vs Dolby Vision 2) inherently comes with its own set of problems and issues and its own set of "time to get a new HDMI cable that looks exactly like the old one but works differently, if it works as advertised at all".
I miss the 90s when the answer was "buy big chonky square CRT, plug in with component cables, be happy".
Now you can buy a $15,000 4k VRR/HFR HDR TV, an $8,000 4k VRR/HFR/HDR receiver, and still somehow have them fight with each other all the fucking time and never work.
8K was a solution in search of a problem. Even when I was 20 and still had good eyesight, sitting 6 inches from a 90 inch TV I'm certain the difference between 4k and 8k would be barely noticeable.
Okay sure I made a typo, but my point was more that an open source 4K TV would be more approachable, cheaper, and just as good if not better for most people interested in one.
Even 4K the content is not yet easily available . I mean except from AppleTV plus that all content is 4K and it’s part of basic subscription, every other streaming charges much more for 4K content, most people don’t want to pay more every month for 4K
So 8K is just a distant reality that content makers are not really wanting to happen
We're still limited by what the HDMI and DP cables can throughput so it's not like 8k tvs are even ready. Nobody wants an 8k tv if the cables can't even transmit full fat uncompressed signal.
I hate the wording of the headline, because it makes it sound like the consumers' fault that the industry isn't delivering on something they promised. It's like marketing a fusion-powered sex robot that's missing the power core, and turning around and saying "nobody wants fusion-powered sex robots".
Side note, I'd like for people to stop insisting that 60fps looks "cheap", so that we can start getting good 60fps content. Heck, at this stage I'd be willing to compromise at 48fps if it gets more directors on board. We've got the camera sensor technology in 2025 for this to work in the same lighting that we used to need for 24fps, so that excuse has flown.
The only complaints I've ever heard about 60fps are from gamers who prefer higher refresh rates. Does anyone advocate for framerates to be lower than 60??
Well, that is possible. But it doesn't change the result. When I watch something with higher fps, I suddenly see all the film work. The way the scene is lit artificially, the way the set pieces were placed, the way the actors were directed to first look here and then turn there... It's like looking at a magician show and seeing and understanding all the tricks he's doing. It is interesting in some way, but not for long if you're not into the technical side. You can't see the intended result - the magic.
Yeah, also as I alluded to earlier if you shoot at 60fps you get a shorter max exposure time per frame, which can translate to needing more light, which in turn leads to the studio lighting soap opera feel. But that was more of a limitation 15 years ago than it is now.
The consumer has spoken and they don't care, not even for 4K. Same as happened with 3D and curved TVs, 8K is a solution looking for a problem so that more TVs get sold.
In terms of physical media - at stores in Australia the 4K section for Blurays takes up a single rack of shelves. Standard Blurays and DVDs take up about 20.
Even DVDs still sell well because many consumers don't see a big difference in quality, and certainly not enough to justify the added cost of Bluray, let alone 4K editions. A current example, Superman is $20 on DVD, $30 on Bluray (50% cost increase) or $40 on 4K (100%) cost increase. Streaming services have similar pricing curves for increased fidelity.
It sucks for fans of high res, but it's the reality of the market. 4K will be more popular in the future if and when it becomes cheaper, and until then nobody (figuratively) will give a hoot about 8K.
Some of the smaller 4k sets work as an XXL computer monitor
But for a living room tv, you seriously need space for a 120"+ set to actually see any benefit of 8k. Most people don't even have the physical space for that
It's amazingly stupid having those prices. DVD should cost the same as Bluray and both should cost $25 max. After all, a DVD and a Bluray are two technologies far past their ROI date.
I like 4k for documentaries and cinematic shows, but Ill never watch something like TNG or Jessica Jones on 4k again. Takes all the magic away, feels like you're standing next to the camera guy - suddenly I just see an actor in room and the immersion is broken.
Resolution alone isn't enough to fuck that up. I noticed it first when watching The Hobbit in cinemas at 48fps. It makes things that are real look very real, and unfortunately what was real was Martin Freeman wearing rubber feet.
TV and movies I'm totally good with 1080p. If I want a cinematic experience, that's what the cinema is for.
But since switching to PC and gaming in 4k everywhere I can, it feels like a night and day difference to play in 1080p. Granted that means I care about monitor resolution rather than TV resolution.
But as an aside, as a software engineer that works from home, crisp text, decent color spectrum support, good brightness in a bright room, all things that make your day a whole lot better when you stare at a computer screen for a large chunk of your day
Somehow when it's called a "monitor" it quadruples the price.
I can't really accept that a basic 4k 27" monitor without even speakers costs the same of a 4k 65" TV with HDR, deeper blacks, WiFi and it even comes bundled with dozens of spyware for added convenience
I would love to have an 8K TV or monitor if I had an internet connection up to the task and enough content in 8K to make it worth it, or If I had a PC powerful enough to run games smoothly in that resolution.
I think it's silly to say 'nobody wants this' when the infrastructure for it isn't even close to adequate.
I will admit that there is diminishing returns now, going from 4K to 8K was less impressive than FHD to 4K and I imagine that 8K will probably be where it stops, at least for anything that can reasonably fit in a house.
Natural gas is composed mostly of climate-warming methane but also contains other gases such as hydrogen sulfide, which is deadly at high concentrations. Gas escapes as wells are drilled and before infrastructure is in place to capture it. It also can be intentionally released if pressure in the system poses a safety risk or if capturing and transporting it to be sold is not profitable. Typically, drillers burn the gas they don’t capture, converting the methane to carbon dioxide, a less potent greenhouse gas, in a process called flaring. Sometimes, they release the gas without burning it, in a process called venting.
The permit applications showed oil companies requested to flare or vent more than 195 billion cubic feet of natural gas per year, enough to power more than 3 million homes and generate millions of dollars of tax revenue had the gas been captured. Those emissions would have a climate-warming impact roughly equivalent to 27 gas-fired power plants operating year-round, even if the flares burned every molecule of methane released from the wells.
The oil industry touts Texas as a success story in controlling climate-warming methane emissions. The state’s regulator, however, grants nearly every request to burn or vent gas into the atmosphere.
The map targets the seat of Democratic Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, one of two Black members of the state’s congressional delegation, by stretching his Kansas City-based district 200 miles east into red, rural counties that have little in common with the urban areas he’s represented for 20 years in Congress. Cleaver’s hometown of Kansas City, where he served as mayor before joining the US House, would be split into three districts to dilute Democratic voting strength. According to The Downballot, Cleaver’s district, which he won by twenty-four points in 2024, would now favor Trump by 18 points.
If successful, the new map would give Republicans 90 percent of seats in a state Trump carried with 58 percent of the vote in 2024.
“President Trump’s unprecedented directive to redraw our maps in the middle of the decade and without an updated census is not an act of democracy—it is an unconstitutional attack against it,” Cleaver said in a statement.
New research suggests that the atmosphere will become more turbulent as climate change makes the air less stable.
The University of Reading used 26 of the latest global climate models to study how warming temperatures affect jet streams at around 35,000 feet, a typical cruising altitude for a passenger airline.
As jet streams change they create stronger wind shear, the differences in wind speed at different heights.
PhD researcher at the University of Reading and lead author, Joana Medeiros said: "Increased wind shear and reduced stability work together to create favourable conditions for clear-air turbulence - the invisible, sudden jolts that can shake aircraft without warning.
"Unlike turbulence caused by storms, clear-air turbulence cannot be seen on radar, making it difficult for pilots to avoid." she said.
A Netherlands-based immigration activist named Dominick Skinner is using AI and facial recognition to reveal the identities of masked US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents. Talk about turned tables — and a striking ethical paradox.
In an interview with Politico, Skinner claimed that he and his team of volunteers have so far been able to use AI to identify at least 20 ICE agents seen in video recordings that have gone viral of the masked figures arresting people — students, children, mothers, and American citizens included — in broad daylight. The videos are deeply troubling, in part because of the dystopian imagery of armed federal agents shielding their faces as they arrest people in streets, their cars, homes, government offices, and workplaces.
Shein Used Luigi Mangione’s AI-Generated Face to Sell a Shirt
A listing on ultra-fast-fashion e-commerce site Shein used an AI-generated image of Luigi Mangione to sell a floral button-down t-shirt.
Mangione—the prime suspect in the December 2024 murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson—is being held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, last I checked, and is not modeling for Shein.
I first saw the Mangione Shein listing on the culture and news X account Popcrave, which posted the listing late Tuesday evening.
Shein removed the listing on Wednesday, but someone saved it on the Internet Archive before Shein took it down. "The image in question was provided by a third-party vendor and was removed immediately upon discovery," Shein told Newsweek in a statement. "We have stringent standards for all listings on our platform. We are conducting a thorough investigation, strengthening our monitoring processes, and will take appropriate action against the vendor in line with our policies." Shein provided the same comment to 404 Media.
The item, sold by the third-party brand Manfinity, had the description “Men's New Spring/Summer Short Sleeve Blue Ditsy Floral White Shirt, Pastoral Style Gentleman Shirt For Everyday Wear, Family Matching Mommy And Me (3 Pieces Are Sold Separately).”
The Manfinity brand makes a lot of Shein stuff using AI-generated models, like these gym bros selling PUSH HARDER t-shirts and gym sweats and this very tough guy wearing a “NAH, I’M GOOD” tee. AI-generated models are all over Shein, and seems especially popular with listings featuring babies and toddlers. AI models in fashion are becoming more mainstream; in July, Vogue ran advertisements for Guess featuring AI-generated women selling the brand’s summer collection.
Last year, artists sued Shein, alleging the Chinese e-commerce giant scraped the internet using AI and stole their designs, and it’s been well-documented that fast fashion sites use bots to identify popular themes and memes from social media to put them on their own listings. Mangione merch and anything related to the case—including remixes of the United Healthcare logo and the “Deny, Defend, Depose” line allegedly found on the bullet—went wild in the weeks following Thompson’s murder; Manfinity might have generated what seemed popular on social media (Mangione’s smiling face) and automatically put it on a shirt listing. Based on the archived listing, it worked: A lot of people managed to grab a limited edition Shein Luigi Ditsy Floral before it was removed: According to the archived version of the listing, it was sold out of all sizes except for XXL.
Domenica 7 settembre la Luna si tingerà di rosso: sarà possibile seguire l’evento insieme alle ricercatrici e ai ricercatori dell’Istituto nazionale di astrofisica attraverso la diretta speciale di EduInaf, su YouTube e Facebook, dalle ore 19:15.
Torniamoci dunque alla Luna, ma viviamola tutta, o perlomeno proviamoci. Teniamocela stretta, viviamo(la) quanto più ci è possibile, perché questo lei ci chiede.
I thought CalcKey renamed themselves to Firefish, and then development on the whole project stopped? I know that Sharkey is a popular fork that still seems to be in development.
They all have poorly chosen names to be fair. Open source projects choose the worst names and most confusing UX and then call everyone dumb for using programs that actually try to get people to enjoy them or at least be able to spell them
See, this is why I keep struggling when I'm telling someone about something I heard on here and they ask if it was on reddit
"No... it was on erm... well... it's this other place. It's not reddit... thank God it's not reddit but it's called erm... well it was Mbin and then that shut down and then it was kbin and now I'm on fedia.io but actually it's lemmy... but it's part of the fediverse... I think? it's... yeah it's like reddit basically but it's not... anyway this asteroid is going to zip by the earth later today. Here's a live youtube page that's tracking it" 🤣
Well it gets harder and harder to differentiate what is and is not part of the fediverse. With the fully implemented 2 way bridge called Bridgy Fed you can carry on completely conversations from the fediverse with bluesky people interwoven in the same conversations…
well, to me its part of the fediverse if it uses activitypub. You can bridge whatsapp, telegram and mastodon with matrix and a minecraft server, that doesnt make them be a part of the matrix protocol or the fediverse.
Whatsapp, telegram and Minecraft are centralized, so there's no way to have a two-way communication between someone on one of those and someone on the fediverse, whereas with the bridgy bridge it speaks native activitypub and native atproto and acts as the gobetween. There is not anything like this for any other type of bridge I have ever used. Now something like this could indeed be done with Matrix and there have been some attempts at this but I still haven't seen any of them work in practice
The U.S. job market has lost momentum this year, partly because of the lingering effects of 11 interest rate hikes by the inflation fighters at the Federal Reserve in 2022 and 2023 and partly because President Donald Trump’s trade wars have created uncertainty that is paralyzing managers making hiring decisions.
Imgonnatrythis
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •suddenlyme
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •hisao
in reply to suddenlyme • • •xthexder
in reply to hisao • • •Personally I don't use AI because I see all the subtle ways it's wrong when programming, and the more I pay attention to things like AI search results, it seems like there's almost always something misrepresented or subtly incorrect in the output, and for any topics I'm not already fluent in, I likely won't notice these things until it's already causing issues
hisao
in reply to xthexder • • •TubularTittyFrog
in reply to suddenlyme • • •it's not any different than eating fast/processed food vs eating healthy.
it warps your expectations
Ganbat
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •svc
in reply to Ganbat • • •FauxLiving
in reply to svc • • •masterofn001
in reply to Ganbat • • •Wojwo
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •like this
themadcodger likes this.
socphoenix
in reply to Wojwo • • •sqgl
in reply to Wojwo • • •ALoafOfBread
in reply to Wojwo • • •sheogorath
in reply to ALoafOfBread • • •Fuck, this is why I'm feeling dumber myself after getting promoted to more senior positions and had only had to work in architectural level and on stuff that the more junior staffs can't work on.
With LLMs basically my job is still the same.
rebelsimile
in reply to ALoafOfBread • • •vacuumflower
in reply to Wojwo • • •My dad around 1993 designed a cipher better than RC4 (I know it's not a high mark now, but it kinda was then) at the time, which passed audit by a relevant service.
My dad around 2003 still was intelligent enough, he'd explain me and my sister some interesting mathematical problems and notice similarities to them and interesting things in real life.
My dad around 2005 was promoted to a management position and was already becoming kinda dumber.
My dad around 2010 was a fucking idiot, you'd think he's mentally impaired.
My dad around 2015 apparently went to a fortuneteller to "heal me from autism".
So yeah. I think it's a bit similar to what happens to elderly people when they retire. Everything should be trained, and also real tasks give you feeling of life, giving orders and going to endless could-be-an-email meetings makes you both dumb and depressed.
TubularTittyFrog
in reply to Wojwo • • •that's the peter principle.
people only get promoted so far as their inadequacies/incompetence shows. and then their job becomes covering for it.
hence why so many middle managers primary job is managing the appearance of their own competence first and foremost and they lose touch with the actual work being done... which is a key part of how you actually manage it.
Wojwo
in reply to TubularTittyFrog • • •Yeah, that's part of it. But there is something more fundamental, it's not just rising up the ranks but also time spent in management. It feels like someone can get promoted to middle management and be good at the job initially, but then as the job is more about telling others what to do and filtering data up the corporate structure there's a certain amount of brain rot that sets in.
I had just attributed it to age, but this could also be a factor. I'm not sure it's enough to warrant studies, but it's interesting to me that just the act of managing work done by others could contribute to mental decline.
Tracaine
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •I don't refute the findings but I would like to mention: without AI, I wasn't going to be writing anything at all. I'd have let it go and dealt with the consequences. This way at least I'm doing something rather than nothing.
I'm not advocating for academic dishonesty of course, I'm only saying it doesn't look like they bothered to look at the issue from the angle of:
"What if the subject was planning on doing nothing at all and the AI enabled the them to expend the bare minimum of effort they otherwise would have avoided?"
acosmichippo
in reply to Tracaine • • •sad that people knee jerk downvote you, but i agree. i think there is definitely a productive use case for AI if it helps you get started learning new things.
It helped me a ton this summer learn gardening basics and pick out local plants which are now feeding local pollinators. That is something i never had the motivation to tackle from scratch even though i knew i should.
frongt
in reply to acosmichippo • • •Given the track record of some models, I'd question the accuracy of the information it gave you. I would have recommended consulting traditional sources.
acosmichippo
in reply to frongt • • •jfc you people are so eager to shit on anything even remotely positive of AI.
Firstly, the entire point of this comment chain is that if "consulting traditional sources" was the only option, I wouldn't have done anything. My back yard would still be a barren mulch pit. AI lowered the effort-barrier of entry, which really helps me as someone with ADHD and severe motivation deficit.
Secondly, what makes you think i didn't? Just because I didn't explicitly say so? yes, i know not to take an LLM's word as gospel. i verified everything and bought the plants from a local nursery that only sells native plants. There was one suggestion out of 8 or so that was not native (which I caught before even going shopping). Even with that overhead of verifying information, it still eliminated a lot of busywork searching and collating.
Hominine
in reply to acosmichippo • • •Pycorax
in reply to Tracaine • • •hisao
in reply to Pycorax • • •Is this a general statement right? Try to forget about context then and read that again 😅
I actually think the moments when AI goes wrong are the moments that stimulate you and make you realize what you're doing and what you want to achieve better. And when you do subsequent prompts to fix the issue, you essentially do problem solving on figuring out what to ask to make it do the exact thing you want. And it's never going to be always right, simply because most of cases of it being wrong is you not providing enough details about what you actually want. So step-by-step AI usage with clarifications and fixes is always going to be brain-stimulating problem solving process.
dai
in reply to hisao • • •So vibe coding?
I've tried using llm for a couple of tasks before I gave up on the jargon outputs and nonsense loops that they kept feeding me.
I'm no coder / programmer but for the simple tasks / things I needed I took inspo from others, understood how the scripts worked, added comments to my own scripts showing my understanding and explaining what it's doing.
I've written honestly so much, just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks (works). I have fleshed out a method for using base16 colour schemes to modify other GTK* themes so everything in my OS matches. I have declarative containers, IP addresses, secrets, containers and so much more. Thanks to the folks who created nix-colors, I should really contribute to that repo.
I still feel like a noob when it comes to Linux however seeing my progress in ~ 1y is massive.
I managed to get a working google coral after everyone else's scripts (that I could find on Github) had quit working (NixOS). I've since ditched that module as the upkeep required isn't worth a few ms in detection speeds.
I don't believe any of my configs would be where they are if I'd asked a llm to slap it together for me. I'd have none of the understanding of how things work.
hisao
in reply to dai • • •wg.conffile getting wrong SELinux context and wg-quick daemon refusing to work because of that:I never knew such this thing even exist, and LLM just casually explained that and provided a fix:
FauxLiving
in reply to hisao • • •LLMs are good as a guide to point you in the right direction. They’re about the same kind of tool as a search engine. They can help point you in the right direction and are more flexible in answering questions.
Much like search engines, you need to be aware of the risks and limitations of the tools. Google with give you links that are crawling with browser exploiting malware and LLMs will give you answers that are wrong or directions that are destructive to follow (like incorrect terminal commands).
We’re a bit off from the ability to have models which can tackle large projects like coding complete applications, but they’re good at some tasks.
I think the issue is when people try to use them to replace having to learn instead of as a tool to help you learn.
hisao
in reply to FauxLiving • • •I believe they're (Copilot and similar) good for coding large projects if you use them in small steps and micromanage everything. I think in this mode of use they save a huge amount of time, and more importantly, they prevent you wasting your energy doing grindy/stupid/repetitive parts and allow you to save it for actually interesting/challenging parts.
Pycorax
in reply to hisao • • •Well that's why u was asking for an example of sorts. The problem is that if you're just starting out, you don't know what you don't know and more importantly, you won't be able to tell if something is wrong. It doesn't help that LLMs are notoriously good at being confidently incorrect and prone to hallucinations.
When I tried it for programming, more often than not, it has hallucinated functions and APIs that did not exist. And I know that they don't because I've been working at this for more than half of my life so I have the intuition to detect bullshit when it appears. However, for learners they are unlikely to be able to differentiate that.
hisao
in reply to Pycorax • • •When you run it, test it, and it doesn't work as expected (or doesn't work at all), that means most likely something is wrong. Not all fields of work require programs to be 100% correct from the first try, pretty often you can run and test your code infinite number of times before shipping/deploying.
hisao
in reply to Tracaine • • •WhyJiffie
in reply to hisao • • •a custom VPN without security minded planning and knowledge? that sounds like a disaster.
surely you could do other things that have more impact for yourself, still with computers. use wireguard and spend the time with setting up your services and network security.
and, port forwarding.. I don't know where are you running that, but linux iptables can do that too, in the kernel, with better performance.
hisao
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •Oops, I meant self-hosting a wireguard server, not actually doing an alternative to wireguard or openvpn themselves...
With my previous paid VPN I had to use natpmpc to ask their server for forwarding/binding ports for me, and I also had to do that every 45 seconds. It's nice to get a bash script running in a systemd demon that does that in a loop, and also parses output and saves remote ports server gave us this time to file in case we need them (like, for setting up a tor relay). Also, I got another script and demon for tor relay that monitors forwarded port changes (from a file) and updates torrc and restarts tor container. All this by Copilot, without knowing bash at all. Without having to write complex regexes to parse that output or regexes to overwrite tor config, etc. It's not a single prompt, it requires some troubleshooting and clarifications and ultimately I got to know some of the low level details of this myself. Which is also great.
WhyJiffie
in reply to hisao • • •oh, that's fine then, recommended even.
oh so this is a management automation that requests an outside system to open ports, and updates services to use the ports you got. that's interesting! what VPN service was that?
be sure to run shellcheck for your scripts though, it can point out issues. aim for it to have no output, that means all seems ok.
hisao
in reply to WhyJiffie • • •Proton VPN
It does some logging though, and I read what it logs via
systemctl --user status. Anyway, those scripts/services so far are of a simple kind - if they don't work, I notice that immediately, because my torrents not seeding or my tor/i2p proxy ports not working in browser. In case when error can only be discovered conditionally somewhere during a long runtime, it needs more complicated and careful testing.How to manually set up port forwarding | Proton VPN
Proton VPNSerinus
in reply to hisao • • •hisao
in reply to Serinus • • •Feathercrown
in reply to Tracaine • • •You haven't done anything, though. If you're getting to the point where you are doing actual work instead of letting the AI do it for you, then congratulations, you've learned some writing skills. It would probably be more effective to use some non-ai methods to learn as well though.
If you're doing this solely to produce output, then sure, go ahead. But if you want good output, or output that actually reflects your perspective, or the skills to do it yourself, you've gotta do it the hard way.
QuadDamage
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •Microsoft reported the same findings earlier this year, spooky to see a more academic institution report the same results.
microsoft.com/en-us/research/w…
Abstract for those too lazy to click:
sqgl
in reply to QuadDamage • • •felsiq
in reply to sqgl • • •sqgl
in reply to felsiq • • •mushroommunk
in reply to sqgl • • •Hackworth
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •Your Brain on ChatGPT: Accumulation of Cognitive Debt when Using an AI Assistant for Essay Writing Task – MIT Media Lab
MIT Media Labveebee
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •sudo_shinespark
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •morto
in reply to sudo_shinespark • • •TubularTittyFrog
in reply to morto • • •bingo.
it's like a health supplement company telling you eating healthy is stupid when they have this powder/pill you should take.
tech evangelism is very cultish and one of it's values is worshipping 'youth' and 'novelty' to an absurd degree, as if youth is automatically superior to experience and age.
Korkki
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •One of these papers that are basically "water is wet, researches discover".
canadaduane
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •radix
in reply to canadaduane • • •Jesus
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •theneverfox
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •lechekaflan
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •Another reason for refusing those so-called tools... it could turn one into another tool.
drspawndisaster
in reply to lechekaflan • • •surph_ninja
in reply to lechekaflan • • •mika_mika
in reply to surph_ninja • • •unpossum
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •What a ridiculous study. People who got AI to write their essay can’t remember quotes from their AI written essay? You don’t say?! Those same people also didn’t feel much pride over their essay that they didn’t write? Hold the phone!!! Groundbreaking!!!
Academics are a joke these days.
FauxLiving
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •manefraim
in reply to FauxLiving • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to manefraim • • •DownToClown
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •The obvious AI-generated image and the generic name of the journal made me think that there was something off about this website/article and sure enough the writer of this article is on X claiming that covid 19 vaccines are not fit for humans and that there's a clear link between vaccines and autism.
Neat.
Tad Lispy
in reply to DownToClown • • •Thanks for the warning. Here's the link to the original study, so we don't have to drive traffic to that guys website.
arxiv.org/abs/2506.08872
I haven't got time to read it and now I wonder if it was represented accurately in the article.
Your Brain on ChatGPT: Accumulation of Cognitive Debt when Using an AI Assistant for Essay Writing Task
arXiv.orgcodemankey
in reply to Tad Lispy • • •Tad Lispy
in reply to codemankey • • •SocialMediaRefugee
in reply to DownToClown • • •Arthur Besse
in reply to DownToClown • • •Thanks for pointing this out. Looking closer I see that that "journal" was definitely not something I want to be sending traffic to, for a whole bunch of reasons - besides anti-vax they're also anti-trans, and they're gold bugs... and they're asking tough questions like "do viruses exist" 🤡
I edited the post to link to MIT instead, and added a note in the post body explaining why.
Do Viruses Exist? - Science, Public Health Policy and the Law
Science, Public Health Policy and the Lawtrashgarbage78
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •what should we do then? just abandon LLM use entirely or use it in moderation? i find it useful to ask trivial questions and sort of as a replacement for wikipedia. also what should we do to the people who are developing this 'rat poison' and feeding it to young people's brains?
edit:
i also personally wouldn't use AI at all if I didn't have to compete with all these prompt engineers and their brainless speedy deployments
GlenRambo
in reply to trashgarbage78 • • •trashgarbage78
in reply to GlenRambo • • •Shanmugha
in reply to trashgarbage78 • • •trashgarbage78
in reply to Shanmugha • • •mp_complete
in reply to trashgarbage78 • • •Shanmugha
in reply to trashgarbage78 • • •surph_ninja
in reply to GlenRambo • • •orrk
in reply to trashgarbage78 • • •UnderpantsWeevil
in reply to trashgarbage78 • • •Gotta argue that your more methodical and rigorous deployment strategy is more cost efficient than guys cranking out big ridden releases.
If your boss refuses to see it, you either go with the flow or look for a new job (or unionize).
paequ2
in reply to UnderpantsWeevil • • •I'm not really worried about competing with the vibe coders. At least on my team, those guys tend to ship more bugs, which causes the fire alarm to go off later.
I'd rather build a reputation of being a little slower, but more stable and higher quality. I want people to think, "Ah, nice. Paequ2 just merged his code. We're saved." instead of, "Shit. Paequ2 just merged. Please nothing break..."
Also, those guys don't really seem to be closing tickets faster than me. Typing words is just one small part of being a programmer.
TubularTittyFrog
in reply to trashgarbage78 • • •you should stop using it and use wikipedia.
being able to pull relevant information out of a larger of it, is a incredibly valuable life skill. you should not be replacing that skill with an AI chatbot
trashgarbage78
in reply to TubularTittyFrog • • •surph_ninja
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •rumba
in reply to surph_ninja • • •Yeah, I went over there with ideas that it was grandiose and not peer-reviewed. Turns out it's just a cherry-picked title.
If you use an AI assistant to write a paper, you don't learn any more from the process than you do from reading someone else's paper. You don't think about it deeply and come up with your own points and principles. It's pretty straightforward.
But just like calculators, once you understand the underlying math, unless math is your thing, you don't generally go back and do it all by hand because it's a waste of time.
At some point, we'll need to stop using long-form papers to gauge someone's acumen in a particular subject. I suspect you'll be given questions in real time and need to respond to them on video with your best guesses to prove you're not just reading it from a prompt.
UnderpantsWeevil
in reply to surph_ninja • • •Seems like you've made the point succinctly.
Don't lean on a calculator if you want to develop your math skills. Don't lean on an AI if you want to develop general cognition.
5C5C5C
in reply to UnderpantsWeevil • • •I don't think this is a fair comparison because arithmetic is a very small and almost inconsequential skill to develop within the framework of mathematics. Any human that doesn't have severe learning disabilities will be able to develop a sufficient baseline of arithmetic skills.
The really useful aspects of math are things like how to think quantitatively. How to formulate a problem mathematically. How to manipulate mathematical expressions in order to reach a solution. For the most part these are not things that calculators do for you. In some cases reaching for a calculator may actually be a distraction from making real progress on the problem. In other cases calculators can be a useful tool for learning and building your intuition - graphing calculators are especially useful for this.
The difference with LLMs is that we are being led to believe that LLMs are sufficient to solve your problems for you, from start to finish. In the past students who develop a reflex to reach for a calculator when they don't know how to solve a problem were thwarted by the fact that the calculator won't actually solve it for them. Nowadays students develop that reflex and reach for an LLM instead, and now they can walk away with the belief that the LLM is really solving their problems, which creates both a dependency and a misunderstanding of what LLMs are really suited to do for them.
I'd be a lot less bothered if LLMs were made to provide guidance to students, a la the Socratic method: posing leading questions to the students and helping them to think along the right tracks. That might also help mitigate the fact that LLMs don't reliably know the answers: if the user is presented with a leading question instead of an answer then they're still left with the responsibility of investigating and validating.
But that doesn't leave users with a sense of immediate gratification which makes it less marketable and therefore less opportunity to profit...
UnderpantsWeevil
in reply to 5C5C5C • • •I'd consider it foundational. And hardly small or inconsequential given the time young people spend mastering it.
With time and training, sure. But simply handing out calculators and cutting math teaching budgets undoes that.
This is the real nut of comparison. Telling kids "you don't need to know math if you have a calculator" is intended to reduce the need for public education.
But the economic vision for these tools is to replace workers, not to enhance them. So the developers don't want to do that. They want tools that facilitate redundancy and downsizing.
It leads them to dig their own graves, certainly.
BananaIsABerry
in reply to UnderpantsWeevil • • •Sorry the study only examined the ability to respond to SAT writing prompts, not general cognitive abilities. Further, they showed that the ones who used an AI just went back to "normal" levels of ability when they had to write it on their own.
UnderpantsWeevil
in reply to BananaIsABerry • • •An ability that changes with practice
Randomgal
in reply to surph_ninja • • •surph_ninja
in reply to Randomgal • • •petrol_sniff_king
in reply to surph_ninja • • •surph_ninja
in reply to petrol_sniff_king • • •petrol_sniff_king
in reply to surph_ninja • • •surph_ninja
in reply to petrol_sniff_king • • •ayyy
in reply to surph_ninja • • •surph_ninja
in reply to ayyy • • •petrol_sniff_king
in reply to surph_ninja • • •I don't always use the calculator.
Do you bench press 100 lbs and then give up on lifting altogether?
surph_ninja
in reply to petrol_sniff_king • • •petrol_sniff_king
in reply to surph_ninja • • •surph_ninja
in reply to petrol_sniff_king • • •Well what do you mean with the lifting metaphor?
Many people who use AI are doing it to supplement their workflow. Not replace it entirely, though you wouldn’t know that with all these ragebait articles.
petrol_sniff_king
in reply to surph_ninja • • •salty_chief
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •Reygle
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •SCmSTR
in reply to Reygle • • •SCmSTR
in reply to SCmSTR • • •reptar
in reply to SCmSTR • • •BussyGyatt
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •Better late than never. Good catch.
Blackmist
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •Anyone who doubts this should ask their parents how many phone numbers they used to remember.
In a few years there'll be people who've forgotten how to have a conversation.
TubularTittyFrog
in reply to Blackmist • • •I already have seen a massive decline personally and observationally (watching other people) in conversation skills.
Most people now to talk to each other like they are exchanging internet comments. They don't ask questions, they don't really engage... they just exchange declaratory sentences. Heck most of the dates I went on the past few years... zero real conversation and just vague exchanges of opinion and commentary. A couple of them went full on streamer, like just ranting at me and randomly stopping to ask me nonsense questions.
Most of our new employees the past year or two really struggle with any verbal communication and if you approach them physically to converse about something they emailed about they look massively uncomfortable and don't really know how to think on their feet.
Before the pandemic I used to actually converse with people and learn from them. Now everyone I meet feels like interacting with a highlight reel. What I don't understand is why people are choosing this and then complaining about it.
interdimensionalmeme
in reply to Blackmist • • •Phoenixz
in reply to Blackmist • • •That doesn't require a few years, there are loads of people out there already who have forgotten how to have a conversation
Especially moderators, who typically are the polar opposite nog the word. You disagree with my factually incorrect statement? Ban. Problem solved. You disagree with my opinion? Ban.
Similarly I've seen loads of users on Lemmy (and before or reddit) that just ban anyone who asks questions or who disagrees.
It's so nice and easy, living in a echo chamber, but it does break your brain
zqps
in reply to Blackmist • • •I don't see how that's any indicator of cognitive decline.
Also people had notebooks for ages. The reason they remembered phone numbers wasn't necessity, but that you had to manually dial them every time.
NateNate60
in reply to zqps • • •—a story told by Socrates, according to his student Plato
starman2112
in reply to Blackmist • • •The other day I saw someone ask ChatGPT how long it would take to perform 1.5 million instances of a given task, if each instance took one minute. Mfs cannot even divide 1.5 million minutes by 60 to get get 25,000 hours, then by 24 to get 1,041 days. Pretty soon these people will be incapable of writing a full sentence without ChatGPT's input
Edit to add: divide by 365.25 to get 2.85 years. Anyone who can tell me how many months that is without asking an LLM gets a free cookie emoji
pirat
in reply to starman2112 • • •You forgot doing the years, which is a bit trickier if we take into account the leap years.
According to the Gregorian calendar, every fourth year is a leap year unless it's divisible by 100 – except those divisible by 400 which are leap years anyway. Hence, the average length of one year (over 400 years) must be:
So,
Or 2 years and...
1041 days is just about 2y 310d 12h 21m 36s
Wtf, how did we go from 1041 whole days to fractions of a day? Damn leap years!
Had we not been accounting for them, we would have had 2 years and...
Or simply 2y 311d if we just ignore that tiny rounding error or use fewer decimals.
tehn00bi
in reply to pirat • • •Engineers be like…
1041/365 =2,852
.852*365=310.980
Thus 2 y 311 d. Or really, fuck it 3 y
Edit. #til
The lemmy app on my phone does basic calculator functions.
pirat
in reply to tehn00bi • • •Seems about right! But really, it often seems pretty useful to me, since it removes a lot of unnecessary information thoughout a content feed or thread, though I usually still want to be able to see the exact date and time when tapping or hovering over the value for further context.
Edit: However, the lemmy client I use, Eternity, shows the entire date and time for each comment instead of the age of it, and I'm fine with that too, but unsure what I actually prefer...
Which client and how?
pirat
in reply to starman2112 • • •I want a free cookie emoji!
I didn't ask an LLM, no, I asked Wikipedia:
Edit: but since I already knew a year is 365.2425 I could, of course, have divided that by the 12 months of a year to get that number.
So,
34 months + 6d 3h 30m 35s 999ms 999999 ns (or we could call it 36s...)
Edit: 34 months is better known as 2 years and 10 months.
irregular unit of time dividing a calendar year
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)starman2112
in reply to pirat • • •🍪
You got as far as nanoseconds so here's a cupcake for extra credit too 🧁
pirat
in reply to starman2112 • • •olympicyes
in reply to starman2112 • • •lennivelkant
in reply to starman2112 • • •Rough estimate using 30 days as average month would be ~35 months (1050 = 35×30). The average month is a tad longer than 30 days, but I don't know exactly how much. Without a calculator, I'd guess the total result is closer to 34.5. Just using my own brain, this is as far as I get.
Now, adding a calculator to my toolset, the average month is 365.2425 d / 12 m = 30.4377 d/m. The total result comes out to about 34.2, so I overestimated a little.
Also, the total time is 1041.66... which would be more correctly rounded to 1042, but has negligible impact on the redult.
Edit: I saw someone else went even harder on this, but for early morning performance, I'm satisfied with my work
starman2112
in reply to lennivelkant • • •🍪
Pirat gave me an egg emoji, so I baked some more cupcake emojis. Have one for getting it so close without even using a calculator 🧁
lennivelkant
in reply to starman2112 • • •billwashere
in reply to Blackmist • • •I still remember all my family’s phone numbers from when I was a kid growing up In WV in the 70s
I currently have my wife’s number memorized and that’s it. Not my mom, my kids, friends, anybody. I just don’t have to. It’s all in my phone.
But I’m also of the opinion that NOT having this info in my head has freed it up for more important things. Like memes and cat videos 🤣
But seriously, I don’t think this tool, and AI is just a tool, is dumbing me down. Yes I think about certain things less, but it allows me to ask different or better questions, and just learn differently. I don’t necessarily trust everything it spits out, I double check all code it produces, etc. It’s very good at explaining things or providing other examples. Since I’m older, I’ve heard similar arguments about TV and/or the Internet. LLMs are a very interesting tool that have good and bad uses. They are not intelligent, at least not yet, and are not the solution to everything technical. They are very resource intensive and should be used much more judiciously then the currently are.
Ultimately it boils down to if you’re lazy, this allows you to be more lazy. If you don’t want to continue learning and just rely on it, you are gonna have a bad time. Be skeptical, questioning, employee critical thinking, take in information from lots of sources, and in the end you will be fine. That is unless it becomes sentient and wipes us all out.
MourningDove
in reply to Blackmist • • •Psythik
in reply to Blackmist • • •UntitledQuitting
in reply to Psythik • • •MourningDove
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •relying on AI makes people stupid?
Who knew?
Yoshi
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •LeoshenkuoDaSimpli
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •eletes
in reply to Arthur Besse • • •Been vibe coding hard for a new project this past week. It's been working really well but I feel like I watched a bunch of TV. Like it's passive enough like I'm flipping through channel, paying a little attention and then going to the next.
Where as coding it myself would engage my brain and it might feel like reading.
It's bizarre because I've never had this experience before.