Benvenuto nel Poliverso

HaraldvonBlauzahn via Linux

2 mesi fa • •

HaraldvonBlauzahn
2 mesi fa • •

Linux and Secure Boot certificate expiration

Linux users who have Secure Boot enabled on their systems knowingly or unknowingly rely on a key from Microsoft that is set to expire in September. After that point, Microsoft will no longer use that key to sign the shim first-stage UEFI bootloader that is used by Linux distributions to boot the kernel with Secure Boot. But the replacement key, which has been available since 2023, may not be installed on many systems; worse yet, it may require the hardware vendor to issue an update for the system firmware, which may or may not happen. It seems that the vast majority of systems will not be lost in the shuffle, but it may require extra work from distributors and users.

Linux and Secure Boot certificate expiration

Linux users who have Secure Boot enabled on their systems knowingly or unknowingly rely on a ke [...]

^LWN.net

#linux

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

The details are complex; it has humorously been called "security by security".

Hobby Linux users could, as far as I understand , simply disable UEFI secure boot (after weigthing carefully what secure boot provides to them, and what it does not provide). Otherwise, they'll need a firmware upgrade before any upgrade to a new OS / bootloader chain.

Small companies which use old laptops with Windows might be bitten hard by this because they can become locked out of their hardware with no way to update it, or even make a backup!

specification that defines a software interface between an operating system and platform firmware

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

And by the way, Intel motherboards which are running your Linux system may contain a copy of Minix - yes, the Minix from the historic Tanenbaum vs. Torvalds debate - which runs below the OS in the system management mode engine and is controlled by the vendor, which can e.g. update firmware via the network. SMM is normally not visible by the user but it can cause problems e.g. for real-time applications because it has higher privileges than the kernel and can interrupt all of the kernel at any time.

operating mode of x86 central processor units

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Technus

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

For a home desktop that's never left unattended with anyone untrustworthy, I don't see that Secure Boot is worth the effort in setting up.

Given that you have to re-sign the boot image every time you upgrade, any malware already running with root privileges on the machine could easily slip itself into the new signed image.

The best security is not running untrusted software to begin with.

in reply to Technus

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Technus • 2 mesi fa • •

Can you explain the detailed reason why you think that? Voicing opinions is nice of course but explaining the thought process and logic is, I think, almost always more interesting to other people.

To start with, what do you think is the "normal users" threath model? And, for example, if one happens to be a member of any of the various minorities that authoritarian governments of every color happen to single out and persecute in your countries case, what would you want to protect from? Or if you are, say, a lawyer, and have a professional obligation to protect sensitive data from theft?

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Technus

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

Actually, I would love for you to explain to me how Secure Boot alone would protect someone from any of that. If you want to protect files, you need full disk encryption, not Secure Boot.

Or are you seriously expecting a government-level threat actor to bother to:

Sneak into your home while you're away or asleep;
Overwrite your bootloader or UEFI with a rootkitted image of the same version so it's impossible to tell;
Wait for you to boot your computer and enter your disk encryption password, then:
Use the rootkit to read the decrypted files off your disk?

That's the great thing about fascist governments, is they have no need to be that sneaky. They can just change the laws to make whatever you're doing illegal and jail you until you agree to give up your documents, or simply hit you with a $5 wrench until you tell them the password.

Security

^xkcd

in reply to Technus

IHawkMike

in reply to Technus • 2 mesi fa • •

You need both FDE and Secure Boot, ideally with FDE using a TPM with PIN and PCR 7+15=0. FDE without SB can be trivially boot-kitted and obviously SB without FDE is mostly pointless. Maybe for a server/desktop behind locked doors you don't worry as much, but for a laptop you absolutely should. Also it's really easy in Arch to resign the UKI with sbctl via a pacman hook whenever the kernel is updated so there's no good reason not to use it.

If you're relying on a LUKS password only, it can be brute-forced. To protect against that you need a decently long password which is annoying to type every boot. A short TPM PIN sealed by SB protecting LUKS is both more convent and more secure.

Finally, if an attacker or malware gets root, FDE isn't protecting you either.

in reply to IHawkMike

aksdb

in reply to IHawkMike • 2 mesi fa • •

Even having no pre-boot PIN with SB on is nice, then you only need your user space login where you could even use fingerprint reader if you like. For servers they can already start serving without anyone having to intervene manually (which is nice after power outage, for example).

So yeah, SB, TPM and FDE are a very nice bundle that heavily secures against the most relevant attack vectors.

in reply to aksdb

IHawkMike

in reply to aksdb • 2 mesi fa • •

Yep that's how my desktops and servers are set up. I only recently started adding the TPM PIN to my laptops for a bit of extra protection from cold boot / evil maid attacks.

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

balsoft

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

Secure Boot is a really contrived and, frankly, bad defense against an attack that is extremely difficult to execute in reality and does not happen often (are there any examples of a bootloader replacement against a home desktop in the wild?).

An actually good solution would be firmware support for LUKS-style FDE (with a password-encrypted key which then encrypts the rest of the disk), so that your bootloader is encrypted with the rest of your system and impossible to substitute without erasing the rest of the disk, until you enter the password. This way there's no need for key enrolment into firmware, and firmware manufacturers don't have to just trust MS. (the firmware of course needs to be protected too, by signing it with the manufacturer's key; if you flash something unsigned, a warning pops up Android-style before every boot).

If you are hiding something from the state (like your sexual orientation or something), your energy is much better spent encrypting your communications online and keeping your identities anonymous. If you are already suspicious enough to try and pull a bootloader replacement attack on you, any authoritarian state which would do that in the first place will just throw you in jail and fabricate evidence as needed.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to balsoft

aksdb

in reply to balsoft • 2 mesi fa • •

The main advantage of SB is TPM. At runtime the key isn't available and unlocking your disk works automatically as long as nothing has been tampered with (which is then also a nice canary: if you suddenly have to enter your password during boot, something's off).

in reply to aksdb

balsoft

in reply to aksdb • 1 mese fa • •

There's nothing technically preventing using TPM without secure boot. This is a limitation imposed by OEMs. In fact I have a separate hardware encryption key that I encrypt my (laptop) drive with, and even I don't (can't) know the private key. I only know the pin that is needed to unlock it. If motherboard OEMs implemented something like this on the motherboard, with the ability to decrypt the bootloader partition before booting into it, this would solve everything.

in reply to Technus

SheeEttin

in reply to Technus • 2 mesi fa • •

If secure boot is off, and you run malware on your pc, it can change the boot process to escalate privileges.

This probably requires root or admin in the first place, but if they can install a malware loader, they can establish persistence so that even if you remove the os-level components, they'll be reinstalled on reboot.

in reply to SheeEttin

Technus

in reply to SheeEttin • 2 mesi fa • •

Yeah, but the malware can just wait for a system upgrade where you sign a new boot image and slip itself in then.

It works for Windows because theoretically only Microsoft would have the signing key and it's not just sitting on disk somewhere. But then you're just trusting Microsoft, and also subject to vendor lock-in.

in reply to SheeEttin

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to SheeEttin • 1 mese fa • •

If secure boot is off, and you run malware on your pc, it can change the boot process to escalate privileges.

This is technically correct, but on a desktop system, malware executing in user space is normally already game over. It can exfiltrate and send your passwords or ssh private keys, change browser certificates or browser software, add user systemd sessions or crontab entries and can generally e.g. do everything a banking trojan would like to do.

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 mese fa)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Max-P

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

As commenters on the LWN thread said, I doubt that many firmwares even bother to check anyway. My motherboard happens to have had a bug where you can corrupt the RTC and end up in 2031 if you overclock it wrong. I didn't use secure boot then though so I don't know if it would have still booted Windows. But I imagine it would.

That said, I've always just enrolled my own keys. I know some other distros that make you enroll their keys as well like Bazzite. At least that way you don't depend on Microsoft's keys and shim or anything, clean proper secure boot straight into UKI.

in reply to Max-P

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Max-P • 2 mesi fa • •

As commenters on the LWN thread said, I doubt that many firmwares even bother to check anyway. My motherboard happens to have had a bug where you can corrupt the RTC and end up in 2031 if you overclock it wrong.

Seems it compares the expiration date of the UEFI key with the signature date of the bootloader / OS keys. (See the comments on the LWN article, some are far more knowledgeable than I am.) So, no, it does not require a working on-board clock to lock you out if you are not extremely careful and fully understand each part.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to Max-P

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Max-P • 2 mesi fa • •

That said, I've always just enrolled my own keys.

That does not help if the master key in the key chain is expired.

Sure you can disable Secure Boot. But a password-protected BIOS is secured by TPM again. High levels of security always carry a risk of locking oneself out.

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

exu

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

I don't think you understand what "enrolling your own keys" means in the context of Secure Boot.

The key affected here is specifically for the Linux shim signed by Microsoft. It is used by GRUB and some distros to work with Secure Boot.

Enrolling your own key means you add a new certificate to the key store. This is completely separate from the one provided by Microsoft and controlled only by you. The common recommendation is to remove all built-in keys and only add your own, to make this system as secure as possible.

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in reply to exu

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to exu • 2 mesi fa • •

The key affected here is specifically for the Linux shim signed by Microsoft.

And exactly that Linux shim signed by Microsoft is no longer valid because the Microsoft signature in the UEFI firmware is expired.

in reply to exu

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to exu • 2 mesi fa • •

OK, now you are talking about something a bit different - registering own keys in the UEFI system, which is significantly more involved than updating the BIOS, and also requires firmware support, and the firmware also needs to match the motherboard. And the whole issue with ACPI support for Linux shows clearly that having reams of specufications is not enough, the implementation of the BIOS needs to match that specification which whether thsz's the case you will only learn after you bought the hardware.

Here is a description of that process:

docs.bell-sw.com/alpaquita-lin…

Moreover, for any change of the boot chain, bootloader, posdibly also kernel, this needs to be repeated.

Do you think that's accessible to normal users? Considering most have probably not even ever done a firmware update?

Using Your Own Keys in Secure Boot

"This document describes how to use Secure Boot with Alpaquita Linux."

^{docs.bell-sw.com}

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

exu

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

From the first post in this chain

That said, I've always just enrolled my own keys. I know some other distros that make you enroll their keys as well like Bazzite. At least that way you don't depend on Microsoft's keys and shim or anything, clean proper secure boot straight into UKI.

I didn't start talking about it, this was many comments above

in reply to Max-P

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Max-P • 2 mesi fa • •

At least that way you don't depend on Microsoft's keys and shim or anything,

The whole point of the article is that you do depend on their expired root key. You have produced a lot of text without even understanding the key issue. At that point I am wondering whether all that text was produced by an LLM?

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Norah (pup/it/she)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

I don't know that you've understood the issue either, and you're being kind of a jerk? My understanding is this mainly affects installation media. If you disable Secure Boot, install a Linux distro, enrol that distro's keys and then reenable it, you're fine. That seems to be what the commenter you're replying too is suggesting.

in reply to Norah (pup/it/she)

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Norah (pup/it/she) • 2 mesi fa • •

and you're being kind of a jerk?

Please don't troll and come back to the topic. GP was completely missing the topic, do you want to avoid it?

. If you disable Secure Boot, install a Linux distro, enrol that distro's keys and then reenable it, you're fine.

Um, given that Secure Boot prevents any modification of your computer's boot chain - including installing another boot loader or OS - that's not how it works.

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

IHawkMike

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

given that Secure Boot prevents any modification of your computer's boot chain

Secure Boot does no such thing. All it does it require that everything in the boot chain is signed by a trusted cert.

Binding TPM PCR7 to FDE (or more brittle options like 0+2+4) is really what protects against boot chain modifications but that's another topic.

Disabling SB to install the distro, then re-enabling it once installed with either maintainer-signed shim or self-signed UKI/bootloader is perfectly fine.

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Norah (pup/it/she)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

I'm not trolling, you called them an LLM, they clearly aren't, you're being a jerk. I'm not going to engage with someone who thinks they're the smartest person in the room.

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Max-P

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

That's the whole point of enrolling your own keys in the firmware. You can even wipe the Microsoft keys if you want. You do that from the firmware setup, or within any OS while secure boot is off (such as sbctl on Linux).

That's a feature that is explicitly part of the spec. The expectation is you password protect the BIOS to make sure unauthorized users can't just wipe your keys. But also most importantly that's all measured by the TPM so the OS knows the boot chain is bad and can bail, and the TPM also won't unwrap BitLocker/LUKS keys either.

Secure boot is to prevent unauthorized tampering of the boot chain. It doesn't enforce that the computer will only ever boot Microsoft-approved software, that's a massive liability for an antitrust lawsuit.

in reply to Norah (pup/it/she)

IHawkMike

in reply to Norah (pup/it/she) • 2 mesi fa • •

Yeah this is an issue but not a big one. Most distro's installation media don't use shim so you have to disable SB during install anyway.

And installing the 2023 KEK and db certs can be done via firmware without much trouble or you can use sbctl in setup mode which I believe has both the 2011 and 2023 keys.

If you dual boot Windows you'll want to update it to the new bootmgr signed with the 2023 keys and add the 2011 certs to dbx to protect against BlackLotus or let Windows do it via patches+regfixes.

Also know that any changes to PK, KEK, dB, or dbx will change the PCR 7 measurement so handle that accordingly if you use TPM unlock for FDE.

in reply to Max-P

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Max-P • 1 mese fa • •

That said, I've always just enrolled my own keys.

That is far more complex than a firmware update and also depends on a correct implementation of the spec in the BIOS - which, given the experiences with ACPI for Linux, is not at all something one can rely on.

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Max-P

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 1 mese fa • •

It has nothing to do with ACPI whatsoever. And firmwares this broken are the exception not the rule.

in reply to Max-P

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Max-P • 1 mese fa • •

ACPI, especislly as it was at the beginning, is a good example that formally having a spec does not guarantee interoperability: You might get running Linux on some Laptop, but this does not guarantee that essential things like power management work.

ACPI modules - ArchWiki

^{wiki.archlinux.org}

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 mese fa)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Eugenia

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

I think this already bites people, it has started, it's not in September but now?: https://x.com/rogerioperdiz/status/1946873449537798582

in reply to Eugenia

Tenderizer78

in reply to Eugenia • 2 mesi fa • •

I just tried to distro-hop and found my BIOS had been locked with a password. Assuming I didn't set a password that I subsequently forgot (and that isn't one of the many I have memorized), I figured this might have something to do with the age of the laptop (I have a HP 4540s). If certificate expiration is already affecting people then this might be it.

EDIT: I just forgot I set a password, and it took me 2 days to realize that I was stupid enough to have set the password that I used for everything when I was 12 years old.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to Tenderizer78

drspod

in reply to Tenderizer78 • 2 mesi fa • •

How did you bypass the password?

in reply to drspod

Tenderizer78

in reply to drspod • 2 mesi fa • •

I didn't. And apparently you can't without trying to short-circuit the motherboard. I just assumed, and assumed wrong.

in reply to drspod

SteveTech

in reply to drspod • 2 mesi fa • •

Not OP, but BIOSes often give you a specific error code after a few wrong password attempts. You can put the code in here to recover the password: bios-pw.org/

BIOS Master Password Generator for Laptops

^bios-pw.org

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

deadcatbounce

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

Being beholden to Microsoft doesn't sound like something anyone needs.

Until that ends I'm doing best to avoid secure boot. I don't want to.

in reply to deadcatbounce

data1701d (He/Him)

in reply to deadcatbounce • 2 mesi fa • •

You can self-sign and self-enroll secure boot keys. Can’t say it’s an easy process, though - I had a lot of misery with it on my Surface Go 1st Gen. Might be better on my Thinkpad.

in reply to data1701d (He/Him)

deadcatbounce

in reply to data1701d (He/Him) • 2 mesi fa • •

I thought it was a Microsoft centric thing in that the certificate authority was either Microsoft or signed by Microsoft?

Maybe I need to read about it more? Can you direct me to the general area?

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to deadcatbounce

WhyJiffie

in reply to deadcatbounce • 2 mesi fa • •

Microsoft's keys are pre-installed to all motherboards, so boot binaries signed by Microsoft are trusted by default. afaik Microsoft keys often can't be removed, but not because it's not possible, but because it can brick devices. you can create your own MOK or Machine Owner Keys and set up your linux system to sign your bootloader and kernel with it, but that is in addition to Microsoft keys.

wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unifi…

Unified Extensible Firmware Interface/Secure Boot - ArchWiki

^{wiki.archlinux.org}

in reply to WhyJiffie

deadcatbounce

in reply to WhyJiffie • 2 mesi fa • •

Thank-you. Recently rebuilt my Arch Rescue build and saw that section in doing the UKI dance.

I don't mind the Microsoft keys being there at all. I just don't think tying myself to them is particularly clever.

From your final part. I think I need to go back and reread it. Thank-you again.

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in reply to data1701d (He/Him)

☂️-

in reply to data1701d (He/Him) • 2 mesi fa • •

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in reply to ☂️-

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to ☂️- • 1 mese fa • •

On ARM, you even can't disable Secure Boot - it is mandatory for ARM Windows PCs.

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 mese fa)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Max-P

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 1 mese fa • •

That's bullshit. ARM is an architecture and by itself does not specify secure boot any more than x86 does. Raspberry Pis don't have secure boot. You can unlock the bootloader on a Pixel, install GrapheneOS, and relock the bootloader just fine. Several other manufacturers allow bootloader unlocks no problem. The main reason you can't on some popular phones is US carriers, even international Samsungs you can unlock the bootloader and flash whatever you want on it.

I'm literally typing this comment on a phone running a custom OS (LineageOS on a OnePlus 8T). I'm literally 2 versions of Android ahead of the latest supported version. I also have a Galaxy S7 running Android 15, a phone that officially tops out at Android 8 and launched with Android 6. Both you literally just toggle the bootloader unlock option in the settings, no hacks no craziness, it's literally a feature.

At this point you're just straight up making shit up.

in reply to Max-P

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to Max-P • 1 mese fa • •

That's bullshit. ARM is an architecture and by itself does not specify secure boot any more than x86 does. Raspberry Pis don't have secure boot.

I mean Windows PCs with ARM CPUs which have Secure Boot, not Android smart phones or embedded devices.

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 mese fa)

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Max-P

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 1 mese fa • •

Nope. Even Qualcomm themselves provide what's needed to run Linux on the Windows for ARM PCs.

The only one I can't find for sure is whether there's any lockdown on the firmware for the Microsoft Surface and Copilot+ laptops, but I'm also not finding any sources pointing that it would be. But at this point you're buying Microsoft hardware, what do you expect.

Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite Benchmarks On Ubuntu Linux vs. AMD vs. Intel

June 2024 marked the launch of the Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite to much initial fanfare for finally some compelling ARM laptop designs.

^{www.phoronix.com}

in reply to deadcatbounce

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to deadcatbounce • 1 mese fa • •

Here

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI#S…

is a list of problems and criticism on Secure Boot.

specification that defines a software interface between an operating system and platform firmware

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

deadcatbounce

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 1 mese fa • •

Oh. Thank-you. I'll read through.

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

xia

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 2 mesi fa • •

So... microsoft has positioned itself between common users and Linux... and as an authority of sorts.

in reply to xia

☂️-

in reply to xia • 2 mesi fa • •

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in reply to ☂️-

HaraldvonBlauzahn

in reply to ☂️- • 1 mese fa • •

There is even a whole section in Wikipedia on issues and criticism with secure boot:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI#S…

Some people argue that one can work around such locking down of PC hardware. Do this or that to avoid issues with substantial tinkering.

But that is not a bug but a feature. Sure, as a technical Linux user you can work around some nastiness. Like working around privacy invasion on Facebook or Linkedin by "adjusting" settings, or "adjust" settings in Wimdows to make it more private and so on. The thing is: working against the platform becomes quickly a losing game, because you don't control the platform - Microsoft does. And it does not help you if you manage to re-gain control of your device after some hours of tinkering if 99.9% of people around you don't have the knowledge and time and store your data, photos, Emails on OneDrive and so on. Freedom is very much a collective thing and software freedom is no exception.

And this does not mean that the thinkering and hacking is in vain - but it is not enough. We need the practical right to control our devices.

specification that defines a software interface between an operating system and platform firmware

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

☂️-

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 1 mese fa • •

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in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn

Decker108

in reply to HaraldvonBlauzahn • 1 mese fa • •

Funny how Microsoft does this just before the October EOL deadline for Windows 10, when a whole bunch of hardware is being forcibly obsoleted...

Zarlock via Attualità, Geopolitica e Satira

2 mesi fa • •

Zarlock
2 mesi fa • •

Un primo sguardo alle caratteristiche del K3, carro armato all'idrogeno sudcoreano - Il blog di Jacopo Ranieri

Nello scenario di guerra contemporaneo, dove sono le informazioni a farla da padrone, con la possibilità di attaccare da distanze chilometriche mediante l’utilizzo di razzi ed artiglieria, piuttosto che l’impiego di semplici droni radiocomandati, le …

^{Jacopo (Il blog di Jacopo Ranieri)}

#attualità

Dr. Moose via Technology

2 mesi fa • •

Dr. Moose
2 mesi fa • •

Amazon Ring Cashes in on Techno-Authoritarianism and Mass Surveillance

Ring founder Jamie Siminoff is back at the helm of the surveillance doorbell company, and with him is the surveillance-first-privacy-last approach that made Ring one of the most maligned tech devices. Not only is the company reintroducing new versions of old features which would allow police to request footage directly from Ring users, it is also introducing a new feature that would allow police to request live-st

Amazon Ring Cashes in on Techno-Authoritarianism and Mass Surveillance

^{Electronic Frontier Foundation}

#technology

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in reply to Dr. Moose

snoons

in reply to Dr. Moose • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

in reply to Dr. Moose

skisnow

in reply to Dr. Moose • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

I bought a cheap Chinese security camera for a fraction of the cost of a Ring and signed up for their cloud storage system. I'm more comfortable with the Chinese government being able to access footage of my backyard, than the current US administration.

in reply to skisnow

Dr. Moose

in reply to skisnow • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Or you could choose an option that does neither. Why feed the autocrats at all?

in reply to Dr. Moose

skisnow

in reply to Dr. Moose • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

eh, you might have a spare day to source a completely uncompromised camera and find someone in a trusted neutral country who runs an unproblematic hosting service and configure a system to do offsite storage in a secure way, but I've got other stuff going on. If you can source me a reasonable alternative I'm happy to use it when it comes time to renew my subscription.

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in reply to skisnow

Dr. Moose

in reply to skisnow • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Nah you're just being lazy. Its really not that hard. At least be ashamed man instead of this defeatist bullshit.

in reply to Dr. Moose

Avid Amoeba

in reply to Dr. Moose • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

What you're saying makes me think you aren't aware of the technical knowledge of your typical smart doorbell or cam user, which is basically little to none.

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in reply to Avid Amoeba

Dyskolos

in reply to Avid Amoeba • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

And exactly this behavior ("I have no clue about the thing I will do, but I'll do it anyway without educating myself prior") is what makes everything suck more and more because it always gets adapted to the lowest common denominator.

We're only still alive because people need licenses to drive cars or fly planes.

in reply to Dyskolos

Avid Amoeba

in reply to Dyskolos • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

But this maybe implies that there's a possibility to change this behaviour. Which is infeasible. For many of the same reasons why we don't have people specialize in more than a couple of areas.If you're not implying that and you're just saying that in vacuum, then yeah sure. That said it's not the only reaaon why things suck more and changing this behaviour is not the only way to not have things suck, For example a government in a more democratic system might serve its citizens more than its corporations and ban these practices.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to Avid Amoeba

Dyskolos

in reply to Avid Amoeba • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Yeah sure, government shall intervene. But...i can probably expect more from anyone else.

And no,I didn't imply everyone should be expert at everything. That is beyond impossible, even for fractions of fractions of things.
But. If you wanna drive a car, you're forced to learn a shitton and pay like 2k € to be allowed to do so. One of the reasons is safety for others.

If I had no clue about e.g. doorbells, I would ask a pro I know or search the net or whatever. At least the absolute basics of it. Even setting the pure curiosity aside, just to know what the heck I'm getting at.
Admitted, I might have much more spare time than the regular Jane or Joe, but I'd still do that if I had to work. Just less intensive.

But yes, this mixture of apathy and ignorance is the leading reason why the internet sucks so much nowadays then 30 or even just 20yrs ago.
The majority of absolutely clueless people not knowing how they get fucked and where to draw a line. Sure, to some it's just a tool they don't need to know shit about to use it. No judging. BUT that doesn't change the fact.

in reply to Dyskolos

Avid Amoeba

in reply to Dyskolos • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

That's the thing, you correctly see the difference in available time after work. That difference stacks over time. Having read this or that makes you understand terminology, patterns, builds confidence and over time that marginal extra time I have had has made it possible for me to grok a manual in 15 minutes but my father who hasn't had that time takes 45 minutes from his shorter available time. Then there's all the modifying details around kids or no kids, how much more hours the lower parts of the working class have to do to pay rent today vs earlier and so on and so forth. Everyone really but it's just much worse for the lower sections.

And then there's the problem of availability of products without extensive research. There's few brands owned by few large corpos that spend a lot pushing them left front and center on their digital platforms. That increases significanty the amount of work anyone has to do to avoid surveillance in this case. And as you understand, increasing the amount of work, increases the amount of time, and there's hard cutoffs which lead to the work not being done, which leads to the marketing campaigns succeeding in getting dad to buy a Ring. These people study, research and know well how to get people who seemingly have choices to choose their product 8 out of 10 times. Especially when transacting via their digital platform.

Which is why we're fighting a losing game if we rely on the individual when they're standing against the corporation which acts as a large collective with collective resources aligned to achieve their goals. This is why individualism is profitable and therefore encouraged. Consumers, employees have to also act as a collective which pools their resources like time, expertise to counteract this. E.g. by having people, supported by the normies, digest, analyse and spit out the results in trivial form (when posaible) that also takes very little time for everyone else to grok, so they make the right decision. Example that come to mind is Consumer Reports.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to Avid Amoeba

Dyskolos

in reply to Avid Amoeba • 1 mese fa • •

Your arguments are all valid and fine, wouldn't argue with them. BUT understanding the underlying reasons doesn't really change the fact and my point.

I can empathise with speeders, murderers, scammers and whatever. But know why someone does something, or even truly empathizing with it, doesn't change the fact that it's bad.
I could understand a society of murderers and their reasons for murdering. But they'd still destroy their society.

And sadly I really see no way for the government (any gov anywhere) to really pull the rudder. Capitalism just won. And, as you already stated, their goals align excellently with the average Joe/Jane having no clue about the stuff that's thrown in their faces and are worked to death so that'll never change.

in reply to Dyskolos

Avid Amoeba

in reply to Dyskolos • 1 mese fa • •

Yes. 😁

And in capitalism right now there's no obvious way to reverse the trend. That said, if the critical theory of capitalism (and history) holds any water, the victory is very likely to be temporary, followed by mass unrest and significant change. What kind of change is not so clear but we may have a say if we're educated enough and organized, so at least we know who to support when the time comes.

in reply to Avid Amoeba

Dyskolos

in reply to Avid Amoeba • 1 mese fa • •

Not today anymore. Social-media and the state-of-stupid of the web inhibit that. The masses don't even know what to protest for or against. And without MASSIVE numbers you'd achieve nothing. Someone just needs to throw enough moneyz at the problem (or pay thousands to flood the net with "I love our overlords because XYZ") until it's gone.

It was hard to topple a king some 100yrs ago, but today? We don't even know our kings anymore. Besides those few media-clown-babies that so desperately crave attention to fill a bottomless void of darkness inside them.

in reply to Dyskolos

Avid Amoeba

in reply to Dyskolos • 1 mese fa • •

Yeah we're definitely playing on hardcore mode. There are some reasons for optimism though. A lot of people who wouldn't think about these things a few years ago are talking about class. I'm talking regular peope I know. These issues were just not on our horizon until recently. They see things very differently than they used to. That's the hopium I'm huffing. 😄

in reply to Avid Amoeba

Dyskolos

in reply to Avid Amoeba • 1 mese fa • •

I'd sniff a line of that hopium too. I just don't see it being available in the foreseeable future. At least not for an affordable price 😁

in reply to skisnow

Dyskolos

in reply to skisnow • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Besides that I would trust a Chinese cloud way more than a murican one (I'm non-US), this really is a lazy excuse. This apathy paired with ignorance or being technically challenged is the main reason dystopian shit like ring even sells at all. Or all those silly "smart" assistants like Alexa.

Phrases like "renewing my subscription" in context of a fucking doorbell itself sounds so absurd to me.

E.g. A raspberry (or the likes) with some run-of-the-mill ip-cam, some wifi-doorbell and AgentDVR would do the same for even less moneyz. And just for you, not the whole world. Wouldn't take more than some hours of setup.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to skisnow

chaosCruiser

in reply to skisnow • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Not too long ago, that statement would have sounded controversial or even crazy. Nowadays though, I’m shocked how much sense it makes to me. Never thought that I would agree with something like that.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

jackeroni via World News

2 mesi fa • •

jackeroni
2 mesi fa • •

France wants to nuke citizens’ holidays to fund a fantasy war with Russia

Macron’s handpicked centrist prime minister has chosen to mess with the one thing that unites the French more than anything: their time off

^RT

#Worldnews

don't like this

in reply to jackeroni

Zeppo

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

Brought to you by: Russia Today

in reply to Zeppo

BestBouclettes

in reply to Zeppo • 2 mesi fa • •

I mean, they actually submitted the idea of removing two national holidays to "save money". The dishonest part here is "to fight Russia", even though the next budget is expected to increase the army's budget.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to BestBouclettes

queermunist she/her

in reply to BestBouclettes • 2 mesi fa • •

But who are they increasing the army's budget for? Just for fun?

in reply to queermunist she/her

BestBouclettes

in reply to queermunist she/her • 2 mesi fa • •

Oh yeah, it's to totally send boots in Russia and walk on Moscow of course, we've almost done it once, we can do it again!
That's totally not a big jump to a fantasized conclusion fed to y'all by known Russian propagandists. The author of the article somehow manages to grasp the problem and dishonestly draw wrong conclusions from it.

There are many reasons to increase the Army's budget. Funneling money to Macron's friends in the armament industry is one of them, preparing the public opinion for a war that will never happen to justify "sacrifices" and austerity is another.

I don't think there's any point in debating about this on .ml anyway. You've probably made up your mind about this already.

in reply to BestBouclettes

queermunist she/her

in reply to BestBouclettes • 2 mesi fa • •

There are many reasons to increase the Army’s budget. Funneling money to Macron’s friends in the armament industry is one of them, preparing the public opinion for a war that will never happen to justify “sacrifices” and austerity is another.

These are probably also reasons, but you think war with Russia isn't on the minds of every government in Europe right now? They're already fighting a proxy war with Russia! At the very least I think this is one of many reasons for increased military funding.

in reply to queermunist she/her

BestBouclettes

in reply to queermunist she/her • 2 mesi fa • •

Funding the army to protect yourself and your neighbours from aggression is very different from funding the army to invade a sovereign country.

I'm not arguing it's not one of the reasons for increasing the budget, but arguing it's to attack Russia is just dishonest.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to BestBouclettes

YappyMonotheist

in reply to BestBouclettes • 2 mesi fa • •

Not dishonest, but following the jingoistic remarks made by several European leaders plus the current NATO proxy war and economic murder attempt of Russia, it's at the very least in the cards, lol. The budget could go into Ukrainian drones (it already is, this is just a proposed increase) just like the American budget serves to bomb tf out of Palestine and neighbours. It's dishonest to say otherwise, come on.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to YappyMonotheist

xzite

in reply to YappyMonotheist • 1 mese fa • •

plus the current NATO proxy war and economic murder attempt of Russia

Wow, why would "NATO" do this? Russia hasn't invaded anyone since ~~2022~~ ~~2014~~ ~~2008~~ ~~1999~~ ~~1994~~ ~~1979~~ ~~1968~~ 1956, that's such a long time ago, and those Hungarians totally deserved it.

in reply to BestBouclettes

freagle

in reply to BestBouclettes • 2 mesi fa • •

Oh. Now I see the problem - you're still operating with centuries-old thinking. You think "war with Russia" means France launching a unilateral invasion of Russia.

Funding NATO is literally the equivalent of preparing for war with Russia. NATO was formed explicitly to counter the USSR. It was staffed with Nazi officers from the Third Reich on the basis that the Third Reich was 100% dedicated to destroying the Soviet Union and enslaving Russia. When the USSR was dissolved, NATO didn't dissolve itself, it became an openly aggressive military force launching invasions of several countries under various pretenses.

The idea of austerity for increased NATO funding can only be interpreted as money for war with Russia. Sure, you can pretend NATO is purely defensive but even if that's the case it's still accurate to say that France is engaging in austerity to fund a war with Russia, just a defensive one.

The reality, however, is that the West has been hell bent on dominating Russia for over 200 years and the quintessential example of that history is Napoleon's campaign to invade Russia - one of the deadliest canpaigns in history. And since the Third Reich was also a Western attempt to invade Russia resulting in massive bloodshed, it becomes really difficult to ignore the obvious problem of France funding NATO (remember, originally helmed with handpicked Third Reich officers) as some kind of "just defensive pact" especially when NATO dropped DU bombs on Yugoslavia in its supposed war for humanitarianism, and NATO's involvement in offensive operations in East Asia.

So you may take issue with the imagined implication that France is going to send an army under the French flag to march on Moscow - I think that's silly too. But you're arguing against a strawman.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to BestBouclettes

Grapho

in reply to BestBouclettes • 2 mesi fa • •

They are already attacking Russia through a proxy. They've not been shy about it. They are increasing military spending because they think their proxy is about to collapse and their liege the US is already demanding everyone else step up so they can pivot to China.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to jackeroni

Lord Wiggle

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

Russian propaganda is world news now? Wtf dude

in reply to Lord Wiggle

BestBouclettes

in reply to Lord Wiggle • 2 mesi fa • •

Welcome on .ml !

in reply to Lord Wiggle

jackeroni

in reply to Lord Wiggle • 2 mesi fa • •

It is not propaganda, it is only labeled like that because of the empire's need to discredit it

in reply to jackeroni

Lord Wiggle

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

It's complete bullshit, some facts are portrayed completely out of proportion and it has a clear propaganda bias.

in reply to Lord Wiggle

jackeroni

in reply to Lord Wiggle • 2 mesi fa • •

Friend, where are you getting your facts to compare it to? Empire controlled outlets. You can not say that a certain fact is or is not being blown out of proportion when the other source for a fact can't be trusted

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to jackeroni

Lord Wiggle

in reply to jackeroni • 1 mese fa • •

I'm a military OSINT analyst, I know how to do source analysis. Russia Today is one of the worst propaganda sources out there.

in reply to Lord Wiggle

jackeroni

in reply to Lord Wiggle • 1 mese fa • •

For which military? A western military? Yeppers, im sure they trained you to do proper source analysis! Not like they have any incentive to alter the training to disadvantage certain sources that just so happens to go against western narratives nosir! Sure they have done a whole lot of evil things, but not ensuring their rank and file are properly trained on source analysis is where they absolutely draw the line 😁 🙄

in reply to jackeroni

Lord Wiggle

in reply to jackeroni • 1 mese fa • •

Well at least I recognize a Russian troll when I see one.

What I do is not believing everything I see on the internet. Whenever there's an article, it can only be confirmed when there are multiple factual sources. RT is far from factual and pushes a very strong narrative. Like the Russian government. Also like Fox News, and US government. Russian independant news sources can be pretty good, but government controlled sources tend to be awful. Especially when it's about the unprovoked invasions into neighboring countries. Like Georgia and Ukraine. And the years long war which consists of insane amounts of factually confirmed horrific war crimes. Like chemical weapons for example. But hey, if you think the Russian government, which is run by an oligarch dictator, is more credible than independant news sources, they you do you!

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 mese fa)

in reply to Lord Wiggle

BrainInABox

in reply to Lord Wiggle • 2 mesi fa • •

As opposed to what? What sources do you use that don't portray any facts out of proportion or have any bias?

in reply to jackeroni

Zeppo

in reply to jackeroni • 1 mese fa • •

Kind of like how they attempt to discredit Europe's extremely reasonable concerns about Russia (conswidering they've been bombing the shit out of ukraine for a couple of years?) starting a war by calling it a "fantasy"?

in reply to Lord Wiggle

تحريرها كلها ممكن

in reply to Lord Wiggle • 1 mese fa • •

It is world news. Why should only Western propaganda be shared?

in reply to jackeroni

Lord Wiggle

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

your army is mass deserting. They are treated better as POW's than by their own government.

- YouTube

Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.

^{www.youtube.com}

in reply to Lord Wiggle

Grapho

in reply to Lord Wiggle • 2 mesi fa • •

I wish I knew where to bet on the fact that if Ukraine has a complete collapse and an unconditional surrender half of you libs will go "these Russian bots lol have fun when Ukraine unveils their gambit and kills the entire Russian government and are celebrated as heroes by everyone in the country"

in reply to Grapho

Lord Wiggle

in reply to Grapho • 1 mese fa • •

Why would I laugh about Russian bots spreading nazi propaganda. Also, what Ukrainian collapse? Right now the chances of Russia having a complete collapse is bigger than Ukraine.

in reply to jackeroni

Grapho

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

French officials daring the population to bring out the guillotines? Time is a flat circle.

in reply to jackeroni

تحريرها كلها ممكن

in reply to jackeroni • 1 mese fa • •

The real reason is because France is being kicked out of Africa so they have to turn inwards and colonize their own people.

The more African countries free themselves from the shackles of French imperialism, the worse it will get for the average French. Then it would be very easy to sell them the next war for them to needlessly die in.

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jackeroni via Memes

2 mesi fa • •

jackeroni
2 mesi fa • •

Heroic Red Army 🫡

#memes

in reply to Zwiebel • 1 mese fa • •

And actively repeating those crimes in the present.

in reply to Zwiebel

davel

in reply to Zwiebel • 1 mese fa • •

Germany’s guilt-pride for its war crimes is a head fake. If it were sincere, Germany wouldn’t be materially supporting Israel’s genocide of Palestinians and suppressing domestic dissent for “anti-semitism.”

Head fake - Wikipedia

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

in reply to Zwiebel

PolandIsAStateOfMind

in reply to Zwiebel • 2 mesi fa • •

Congratulations for buying yet another Cold War bullshit

Hordes of Rapists: The Instrumentalization of Sexual Violence in German Cold War Anti-Communist Discourses

In German Cold War anti-communist discourses, the image of the Red Army as a “horde of rapists” worked as a strategy of exclusion in the construction of a national identity based on “Western values.

^redsails.org

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in reply to PolandIsAStateOfMind

Zwiebel

Yeah let's see this play out with just the soviets. I am not condemning them. I am simply stating that if the allies were never formed the axis scourge would have rolled across the Earth.

in reply to jackeroni

anarchoilluminati [comrade/them]

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

That's exactly why they're crying actually.

in reply to jackeroni

Outwit1294

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

And killed more people than Hitler in the process

in reply to Outwit1294

carl_marks_1312 [comrade/them]

in reply to Outwit1294 • 2 mesi fa • •

Double Genocide theory is a form of holocaust denial you a historical pos

in reply to Outwit1294

Amnesigenic

in reply to Outwit1294 • 2 mesi fa • •

Anything's possible when you make shit up kiddo

in reply to Outwit1294

freagle

in reply to Outwit1294 • 2 mesi fa • •

So ridiculous. Do you still believe in the black book despite its authors renouncing it?

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in reply to Outwit1294

Alaskaball [comrade/them, any]

in reply to Outwit1294 • 2 mesi fa • •

Fake news

in reply to Outwit1294

propter_hog [any, any]

in reply to Outwit1294 • 2 mesi fa • •

The "people" they killed:

in reply to Outwit1294

Tomorrow_Farewell [any, they/them]

in reply to Outwit1294 • 2 mesi fa • •

Unknown parent

Zwiebel

Unknown parent • 2 mesi fa • •

Russian troll

in reply to jackeroni

Takapapatapaka

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

Oh yeah, the famous "if you fight evil, you cannot be evil"

in reply to Takapapatapaka

freagle

in reply to Takapapatapaka • 2 mesi fa • •

So evil for ending the cycle of famines, defeating the Third Reich, establishing autonomy for historically repressed cultures, improving quality of life and standard of living for millions, pioneering an entirely new form of democracy, advancing the science and engineering of spaceflight, space exploration, medical practices, and vaccines, advancing women's liberation beyond anything in the Western world, and tirelessly working against the effects of North Atlantic imperialism - that is until the revisionists began the process of liberalization and European rapprochement that ultimately led to the suffering of its people, the dismantling of the Union, massive morality from liberal economic shock therapy.

in reply to freagle

ThirdConsul

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

While Gladio is a thing, and the history we are taught in Europe is colourized, it feels like you have very romanticized view of USSR.

Gulags were a thing.
So was plunder of "liberated" nations (e.g. Poland), and destruction of the individual countries culture (e.g. Polish cookbooks from before USSR occupation vs after are worlds apart).

in reply to ThirdConsul

freagle

in reply to ThirdConsul • 1 mese fa • •

Gulag literally means prison. It's a scare word to use it the way you're using it. Prisoners in the Gulag worked, but they were paid the national minimum wage and it was saved for them when they left prison. Compare that to US prisons even today and it's not even a contest which is more humane and moral. US prisoners are charged hundreds of dollars per day for the privilege of being imprisoned and then leave with massive debt which becomes a condition of their parole - they have to find work and they have to make debt payments or they get disciplined, which maintains state control over them long after they have served their sentence. Additionally the gulag population was highest when it imprisoned Nazis during the war. But the US has a per capital imprisonment rate higher than the USSR, and those prisoners are slave laborers that make products for for-profit companies to the tune of multiple billions annually. So, if I have a romantic view of the USSR, it's not my because my perspective ignores their carceral system.

As for national plunder, all of the claims I have seen are of soldiers taking things. Not exactly a massive wealth transfer. Some cultural artifacts were taken and probably should be returned, but a) plundering is a universal problem of every single military adventure and not unique to anything done by the Soviets, and b) what the Soviets did is absolutely a minor infraction compared to the looting done by the Western colonial powers during their 500-years of continuous global terror. So no, national plunder is not something I am ignoring in my assessment.

As for culture, Ukraine shows how much individual cultures were supported and elevated under the Soviet system. Even AI can explain the cookbook evidence you bring up - prewar Polish cookbooks were focused on the upper class and Polish peasant food barely ever made it into cookbooks. After the war, with the abolition of the upper class, Polish cookbooks represent the food of the common people, the super majority.

So no. I don't think my view is romantic, I think you are still working through the sedimentary layers of propaganda that make you believe no one could support the Soviets if they really understood what you understand. The reality is that you don't actually understand those things - you don't understand the prison system nor the comparative analysis of prison systems between the USSR and the US; you don't understand the comparative analysis of the behavior of the Soviets post-war vs the behavior of other militaries post-war and what it represents regarding the relative nature of "good and evil"; you don't understand the cultural policies of the USSR and the comparative analysis of those policies versus the cultural policies of the West in similar situations (hint, the idea that native Americans would even have cookbooks, let alone in their own language, is beyond the pale).

Keep working through it. I was where you were at one point. I couldn't imagine why anyone would be a "tankie", I got banned from communist communities for saying things I thought were not just reasonable but universally accepted and understood. But over enough years of research and discourse, I came to realize just how deep the propaganda and narrative control has been and just how wrong my positions were.

Good luck to you

in reply to freagle

ThirdConsul

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

You can stop being condescending, it's not welcomed.

As for national plunder, all of the claims I have seen are of soldiers taking things. Not exactly a massive wealth transfer.

In 1956, when First Secretary of the Polish United Workers’ Party Gomułka was summoned to Moscow, he made some secret notes (that are now public) counting what infrastructure did Moscow stole (as in - systematically took apart, moved to USSR) from Poland (by 1956!):

hundreds different factories lost all machinery
thousands of small manufactories (think pa & ma small manufactories)
8 (!) power stations (from Górny Śląśk)
coke oven gas pipeline 115km,
all big chemistry factories from Polic to Kędzierzyn (value of 1 200 000 000 pre-war $)
4000 km of rails!
heavy machine factories in Jelcz, Łabędy, Zielona Góra, Wrocław, Elbląg, Szczecin
machinery from Mines in Bolesławiec
about 2/3 of machines from the biggest shipyard in Poland (the rest were too big to move)
14 factories of paper and cellulose

Source - Rolicki “Gierek”, pages 110-120 summarized Gomułka notes

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in reply to ThirdConsul

freagle

in reply to ThirdConsul • 1 mese fa • •

jstor.org/stable/3001363

You're saying that industry was plundered without looking at the context, which is that industry was massively expanded in Poland under Soviet economic policy. The fact that machinery was appropriated and reallocated throughout the USSR is precisely what one would expect if a nation that was under the bourgeois rule of production anarchy was suddenly and necessarily integrated into a centrally planned system following the destruction of the most powerful bourgeois military ever fielded at the time.

The idea that you consider the removal of pipeline to be national plundering but ignore the expansion of heavy industry under the Soviet economic program shows you don't have a grip on what plunder means. You could count any reallocation of machinery as plunder if you are willing to ignore the entire other half of the balance sheet. The real plunder is national wealth, social services for the masses, food stores to stave off famine, art and cultural relics, etc. There was some of that, again, not to the extent of the West, but it's worth noting. But power plant machinery? Please. You pretend that the USSR plunged Poland into an agrarian bronze age when the exact opposite is true.

Stop carrying water for the rich elite and the petite bourgeoisie who lost their livelihoods when communism came in.

You think 14 paper factories is worthy of inclusion in the national wealth of Poland and supports your claim of national plunder? Foolish.

in reply to freagle

ThirdConsul

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

researchgate.net/publication/3…

For some reason some Western and all of Russian researchers say that P oland being occupied by USSR did wonders to Polish economy, while Polish researchers say otherwise. I wonder why. Oh, btw, the same is true if you look at any other colonized country.

The idea that you consider the removal of pipeline to be national plundering but ignore the expansion of heavy industry under the Soviet economic program shows you don’t have a grip on what plunder means. You could count any reallocation of machinery as plunder if you are willing to ignore the entire other half of the balance sheet.

You mean rebuying similar equipment to stolen one, from USSR, on credit, and then processing the resources for them and selling them back by the price USSR dictated?

You pretend that the USSR plunged Poland into an agrarian bronze age

I did nothing of the sort. You said you're unaware of systematic wealth transfer, plunder, by USSR. So I showcased, with sources, an example of that.

Foolish

Yes. So far you've proven that you're unable to think or say that USSR did anything wrong, and glorify all the actions undertaken.

If that's not romanticizing, I don't know what is.

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in reply to ThirdConsul

freagle

in reply to ThirdConsul • 1 mese fa • •

For some reason some Western and all of Russian researchers say that P oland being occupied by USSR did wonders to Polish economy, while Polish researchers say otherwise. I wonder why.

Bourgeois nationalism does a lot of things, but one of the most sinister things it does is it distorts narratives about reality so effectively that people inside the bubble think everyone outside the bubble is deranged. You should take your acknowledgement that "for some reason on the Polish establishment hold these opinions" and examine what's really going on. For example...

You said you’re unaware of systematic wealth transfer, plunder, by USSR. So I showcased, with sources, an example of that.

You think that replacing 14 paper mills with heavy industry is an example of systematic wealth transfer, when it's nothing of the sort. If you understand the economic theses of the USSR, it's pretty obvious what was happening - they were attempting to maximize the collective industrialization of all territories they were now responsible for after pushing back the Third Reich to Berlin. This is obviously an entirely different set of constraints than the Polish economy was working under prior to the war. Specifically, the pre-war Polish economy was dominated by the interests of the national bourgeoisie, and those interests were to produce goods for export to the international bourgeoisie for the highest price with the least salary paid to Polish workers. Hence the abject rural poverty that the majority of the Polish population lived under. After the war, during which the Third Reich waged all-out war and destroyed anything productive that they couldn't control, it was the communist program of industrialization and wealth distribution that not only allowed Eastern Europe to recover as quickly as did but also reduced levels of rural poverty and inequality relative to the pre-war period.

Because, again, prior to the war, Poland was dominated by the interests of the ultra minority national bourgeoisie, and your cookbook comment is just wonderful evidence of it.

Yes. So far you’ve proven that you’re unable to think or say that USSR did anything wrong, and glorify all the actions undertaken.

This is what anti-communist bourgeois nationalism does to you. It makes you think people who disagree with you are blindly glorifying all actions undertaken. This is a lie. There were huge problems. Stalin did terrible things and he directed people to do terrible things and he didn't stop people from doing terrible things. The other elected leaders also did terrible things and they directed people to do terrible things and they didn't stop people from doing terrible things. But here's the thing the bourgeois ideology blinds you to - the ruling classes in the world have been doing the same and worse for centuries. We cannot make determinations about the USSR based on the actions of individual soldiers, individual squadrons, even individual generals. We have to judge the USSR based on whether or not they fought and defeated the Nazis at great cost. The reason we have to judge that way is that when we analyze the ruling classes of other nations, we find that instead of resisting the Third Reich, they supported it, they pushed it further, they made it worse. No, defeating the Nazis doesn't mean we can excuse every wrongdoing, but it does mean that we need to see those wrongdoings in the context of the alternative, which was total dominance by the Third Reich and total enslavement of the Slavic peoples across Eurasia, as well as the total extermination of Jews, Roma, homosexuals, and many others in Europe.

So yes, Poland lost 14 paper mills that previously made paper that could be sold on the international market for a profit, and they were replaced by heavy industry that produced things that could only be exchanged within the Soviet bloc because once you were in the communist bloc you were cutoff from the international markets. All of that is true. But the alternative was to have an antebellum period where every occupied country in Eastern Europe became a recruiting and staging ground for fascist organizing that would continue the bourgeois assault against the world's first ever modern proletarian state. Operation Gladio shows us that this is true, the glorification of Nazis and Nazi collaborators across Eastern Europe shows this to be true and the existence of active neo-Nazi paramilitary forces literally killing Russians shows us that this is true.

If that’s not romanticizing, I don’t know what is.

This is a correct statement. You don't know what romanticizing is. You have been blinded by bourgeois nationalism and an ideology of anti-communism disguised as resentment and national injury. You think losing 14 paper factories is meaningful and that people who disagree with you are blind zealots who don't understand reality and operate on romantic fantasies. So yes, you don't know what romanticizing is.

I wish you luck breaking free from the mental prison you are in.

in reply to freagle

ThirdConsul

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

It's going to be a separate message to keep the discussion focused.

Gulag literally means prison.

That's the end of discussion here. You know nothing about gulags. It does not. Gulag is an acronym. Even wikipedia knows better.

Prisoners in the Gulag worked, but they were paid the national minimum wage and it was saved for them when they left prison.

Source please. Because while not everyone died, and gulags differed, my great-grandfather was not offered "salary" for forced slave labour.

I'm not an USian, we're not talking about US here. Don't steer the conversation there, as it's "whataboutism" and bears no relevance to you romanticizing USSR.

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in reply to ThirdConsul

freagle

in reply to ThirdConsul • 1 mese fa • •

Yes. An acronym for administering corrective labor prisons. It was the primary prison system of the USSR and was in no way some grand evil. It was created as a way of making prisoners productive instead of letting them rot in a cell. It was designed to be rehabilitative.

Yes, I am fairly positive your great-grandfather was accounted for in the prison salary system because that's how bureaucracies work. The only way he wouldn't have been is if he was a prisoner of war and all that implies.

in reply to freagle

ThirdConsul

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

It was designed to be rehabilitative.

Yes it was. On paper. And maybe the first one tried to be. Be the 1930 they were designed to mine, chop, place rails and so on. With an impressive death rate and population.

I think you're confusing "taiga gulags" with "sharashka" or lagry near western USSR part if you think it was anything but slave labour camps in general.

in reply to ThirdConsul

freagle

in reply to ThirdConsul • 1 mese fa • •

I wonder what was happening on the Western Front that creates the conditions for more brutal labor camps? Could it have been widespread fascism, Operation Gladio, Nazi and Nazi sympathizers, and bourgeois nationalistic anti-communism?

Or is it, as you say, just the moral failing of a morally and intellectually inferior people?

in reply to freagle

timik_pipik

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

I come from Slovakia and I have to disagree with your view that the USSR is awesome and hasn't done almost nothing bad.
After the war USSR in Czechoslovakia performed similarly imperialist things as USA did during it's history. This includes falsifying election results, banning every party except the communist. It essentially took a before free country as it's satellite.
Source

Also in 1968 In CSK began an era of liberalization, that is lifting on travel ban, enabling free speech,... The USSR saw this as us distancing from them and invaded us with army. After this they changed our government and begun the strictest era of the regime. For example: You couldn't consume ANY western culture, religion was banned. I have a friend, who illegally imported CS Lewis books, and spent time in prison for that. Source
There's an excellent movie on this called Waves (2024). I highly recommend it, cause it showcases more views on the invasion, like the soldiers, who thought that here was a fascist dictatorship.

There's many details I haven't mentioned but if you disagree I hope for meaningful conversation.

For the record, I am very much on the left and I think that both socialism and communism can work in the real world, but not like the USSR

August 1968 unrest in Czechoslovakia

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

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in reply to timik_pipik

freagle

in reply to timik_pipik • 1 mese fa • •

I never said the USSR didn't do anything bad. They did tons that was bad, many things that communists today study from both the perspective of "this was wrong headed and should not be repeated" like wholesale banning religion and from the perspective of "the conditions at the time were so severe, this is the best they could come up and we need to learn so we can do better" like the relocation of Koreans.

But we don't have to argue about that because what you have presented shows a lot of misunderstandings of history and political analysis that needs to be corrected before we can proceed on making judgements on any country or leader.

First off, falsifying documents is not imperialism. Banning political parties is not imperialism. Imperialism is a process value extraction by nations over nations that allows one nation to continuous acquire the value produced by another nation through structural force and use that value to maintain this exploitative structure.

Second off, "after the war" is a really critical important time period. For some reason, all the Russophobes seem to think that when the war is over then everyone should just pick up their jerseys and head home and leave the field to its own devices. War has never worked like that. The reason the USSR turned a free country into its satellite is because that free country no longer had a functioning military to defend itself and the region from further fascist/capitalist incursions. That includes lacking a counter-intelligence capacity.

And now we get to Nazis. There was absolutely a fascist movement in Czechoslovakia that lasted basically until the Nazis came in and occupied the country. And when they came in and occupied the country, they were the fascist movement in Czechoslovakia. At that point, Czechoslovakia ceased being a free country.

The Soviet liberation of Czechoslovakia has to contend with multiple threats. First, the Third Reich had purged the government and as much of society as possible of anyone with communist, trade unionist, and anti-fascist sentiments. Then they installed fascists in the administration of the country and elevated and armed pro-fascists throughout the country. This is the first problem. The Soviets couldn't just liberate and leave because they would be leaving behind a fascist power structure that would never stop trying to find ways of destroying them.

The second problem is after the war. It was clear even before the war started that the Western powers would rather have fascism than communism. Multiple attempts by Stalin to get the Western powers to stop the spread of fascism failed because the West understood fascism as an extension of capitalism and communism as the antithesis of capitalism. By the time the war is ending, the West is making this abundantly clear with their show of force nuking Japan, their occupation of Korea, the creation of the Western European Union and ultimate NATO. NATO was staffed by hand picked Nazi officers, a clear signal to the Soviets that there was no chance for real peace. Then those Nazi officers in collaboration with Western leadership planned and executed Operation Gladio which set about to connect with all the pro-fascists groups across all of Europe in an effort to organize a non-state militia movement to continue the fight against the USSR that the Nazis had advanced.

Under these conditions, the USSR could not simply leave all of the countries it has liberated as it matched to Berlin. The countries were economically devastated, their administrations had been purged of anyone remotely friendly to the USSR and violently populated with Nazis, ultranationalists, and fascists, and every country had fascists in them that were now being organized and armed by the West to continue fighting the USSR. At this point, the only option the USSR has is to take on the task of rebuilding all of these nations at every level: social, economic, and political. Anything less than this would create the conditions for violent fascist uprisings and continued war and bloodshed.

So what is there to do but use the political tools available. The USSR is a union of socialist states, with political structures for how each member state could express its own culture and localized needs and development. Unfortunately, this had never been tried at such distances and the Soviet leadership needed to come up with a way of achieving the goals of peaceful codevelopment without having the Western-most states being formally SSRs. Their solution was to ensure these states were independent but that they were heavily managed by the USSR in the social, political, economic, and military domains to prevent the emergence of fascist militias and fascist movements - things that were not only possible but were literally being actively cultivated by the West.

Religion was not banned in Czechoslovakia nor was all of Western culture. The Catholic Church was particularly targeted by the Soviets for purging from their sphere of influence and with good reason, the Vatican was the core actor in helping Nazi leadership escape the Soviet sacking of Berlin. The Vatican was relocating Nazis all over the world and the US joined them through Operation Paperclip. As the Soviets, it would be obviously suicidal to allow the unfettered operation of the vestiges of the Holy Roman Empire who were actively supporting the Third Reich and deliberately relocation their ranks with obscured histories and names. Can you imagine anyone leaving that alone on the basis of "well it's religion"?

As for C.S. Lewis, have you read his work? It's all pretty out and out Christian Nationalism. I don't blame the USSR for banning it. But all Western work was not banned. Plenty of French and Italian media was widely popular in the Soviet bloc. What you're mainly referring to is the fact that much of Anglo media was banned. And again, for good reason. The UK was the largest must brutal empire on the face of the planet. They weaponized culture in ways no one has ever done before. But they were already being ecclipsed by the USA who continued that tradition and amplified it to it's most extreme. The US was literally manipulating the art market via dark money under the direction of the CIA. Nothing is sacred to the anglosphere. They corrupted everything they touched for political purposes - religion, parenting, education, journalism, literature, music, art, theater, technology, language, politics at all levels, community organizing, etc.

The Soviets were very clear that they did not want war. But the Americans were very clear that they would do anything it took to create the conditions for more war. The Soviets were trying to build a never-before-seen society and they needed peacetime to rebuild after the devastation caused by the West. Meanwhile, the USA had been untouched by the war and was taken the post war period as a major opportunity to expand its empire. It launched a massive campaign in Korea that made Blitzkrieg look like a walk in the park. Korea, by the way, shares a border with Russia. Watching the US completely level half of an entire country after WW2 is over while the Soviets are dealing with millions dead and war-induced famine makes it very clear that the US has every intention of creating conditions for a war of devastation with the USSR.

Did the Soviet leadership do bad things? Absolutely. But were they just an evil imperialist regime that made up lies and punished people for sheer control? Absolutely not. Everything they did was based on the structure of conflict with the West and the realities of Western empire, including the thorough integration of fascism, faith, culture, economics, and politics.

in reply to freagle

timik_pipik

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

This will be a quick reply, since I don't have much time now. Your views are very interesting and new to me, could you provide some sources pls. Just ancorrection about CSK during the war. It broke apart, Czechia being under a brutal occupation and Slovakia having its own fascist government. In Slovakia it was really bad. First transports to Auschwitz were from Slovakia, we were proud about our race laws being stricter than Germany. But in 44 there was a uprising (note: the second largest uprising after the Warsaw). It was suppressed, but it's important.

Note: whats sad is that the history they teach now pretends that Slovakian government did what they did to save us from occupation, but if you look at it a bit more, it's obvious that it wasn't forced, but voluntary. Also fascist artist from that era are still taught about without mentioning their ideology. (Yey capitalism /s)

Ok, so as I said a longer reply later today. I haven't read your reply throughoutly sorry bout that.

armed uprising of the Slovak domestic resistance during the Second World War

^{Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)}

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in reply to freagle

timik_pipik

in reply to freagle • 1 mese fa • •

Okay I have some things that you have wrong:

The Soviets couldn't just liberate and leave because they would be leaving behind a fascist power structure that would never stop trying to find ways of destroying them.

Not true, the election was won by a socialist party, but didn't want to be under the control of USSR, USSR didn't like this, they wanted complete control of the government so they coup d'etat it.

But were they just an evil imperialist regime that made up lies and punished people for sheer control? No...

Maybe not imperialist by definition, I'm not a historian, but they did punish people and made up lies for sheer control. Example In Czechoslovakia thousands of people were executed or sent to prison for life for made up things. This same happened in Hungary, Poland and surely the whole USSR. This trials were publicized by the government to make them examples of what happens when you try to criticize the regime. And this is important and why I believe the Soviet era was as a whole not good. It was a very authoritarian centralized regime, where most criticism was banned. As I mentioned in my previous post, the 1968 invasion of CSK happened because we enabled independent journalism, free speech and free travel.
There were peaceful protest brutally ended, because students wanted electricity and hot water in dormitories. Nothing fascist, just basic needs and the government responded by beating them up and arresting.

Religion was not banned in Czechoslovakia

It wasn't but all churches were owned by the state, not being used for anything religious and if you were publicly religious, you wouldn't get any job and then would be arrested for being unemployed.

I am curious as what you think about the travel ban. I mean if your borders have to look like this

with guards and dogs that chased and often killed anyone trying to exit, I think there's something wrong.

Proces se skupinou Milady Horákové – Wikipedie

^{Přispěvatelé projektů Wikimedia (nadace Wikimedia)}

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in reply to jackeroni

daydrinkingchickadee

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

in reply to jackeroni

SoyViking [he/him]

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

"We have liberated Europe from fascism, but they will never forgive us for it." - Georgy Zhukov

in reply to Zwiebel

Amnesigenic

in reply to Zwiebel • 2 mesi fa • •

"Everything i don't like is fake"

in reply to jackeroni

ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]

in reply to jackeroni • 2 mesi fa • •

"Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army as can never be repaid"

-Ernest Hemingway

Unknown parent

Amnesigenic

Unknown parent • 2 mesi fa • •

Yeah probably, feel free to be more specific and/or post a source

Unknown parent

Amnesigenic

Unknown parent • 2 mesi fa • •

"Everyone knows" lol you've got jack shit and you know it

in reply to jackeroni

gray

in reply to jackeroni • 1 mese fa • •

Marxism is the only cure for fascism.

in reply to Amnesigenic

Zwiebel

in reply to Amnesigenic • 1 mese fa • •

Bro look at their post history. Also I literally like communism, doesn't mean the USSR was good

in reply to Amnesigenic

Zwiebel

in reply to Amnesigenic • 1 mese fa • •

"Everything I don't like is fake"

in reply to Zwiebel

BrainInABox

in reply to Zwiebel • 1 mese fa • •

Liberals transforming into McCarthy when anyone disagrees with them

Unknown parent

BrainInABox

Unknown parent • 1 mese fa • •

"Everyone knows the Jews control the banks, I don't need a source!"

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in reply to Zwiebel

Amnesigenic

in reply to Zwiebel • 1 mese fa • •

Presented without evidence dismissed without evidence, cry about it

in reply to Zwiebel

Amnesigenic

in reply to Zwiebel • 1 mese fa • •

The USSR was good in many extremely obvious ways, you should be more embarassed of your opinions

in reply to jackeroni

Mediocre_Bard

in reply to jackeroni • 1 mese fa • •

Everyone is both the villain and the hero to someone else.

Dr. Moose via Technology

2 mesi fa • •

Dr. Moose
2 mesi fa • •

In China, delivery robots now ride the subway to restock 7-Eleven stores

archive.is/rzfpD

In China, delivery robots now ride the subway to restock 7-Eleven stores

The project, reportedly the first of its kind in the world, will see robots ride subway trains to deliver goods to more than 100 stores across Shenzhen.

^{He Huifeng (South China Morning Post)}

#technology

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Technology reshared this.

in reply to Dr. Moose

Dr. Moose

in reply to Dr. Moose • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Seems a bit of a publicity stunt as there must be a better way to do this than to drop logistics on to human subways? That being said inner city delivery bots are great idea. I'd see them all the time in Estonia a few years ago and food delivery should be entirely automated.

in reply to Dr. Moose

LifeInMultipleChoice

in reply to Dr. Moose • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Meh, I think I like the idea of 1 truck pulling up to a docking bay, them all driving out the back and hopping on the mostly empty cars in slow times that are already going to the subway platforms where the deliveries need to go. It's either that or having to go through every subway entry point to drop them off. I think this will get flack because people are anti automation, but if it was people pushing carts to restock them manually I would still prefer them all getting in one vehicle to the subway and all getting on there and hopping off 1 at each stop. The product is all coming from one source, so why have 43 routes from place to sub station and then 43 routes back. If it is actually busy enough that it is holding up entry somewhere, having it in one location and streamlining it sounds nicer as well. It's not like the people can bring carts through turnstyles anyways, so they are already entering through a designated entry if the 7-11's are on the platforms. (They might not be, they could be elsewhere, but the article says downstairs).

in reply to Dr. Moose

nyan

in reply to Dr. Moose • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

If the bots are required to have paid transit passes and if they're confined to off-peak hours when the subways aren't full anyway, this could actually be a net win for mass transit: they're putting money into the system while consuming relatively few resources, so the bots can fund improvements that benefit humans.

in reply to nyan

kryptonianCodeMonkey

in reply to nyan • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Yeah. Just need to make sure that sensible restrictions are in place to prevent the creep into turning a public service into primarily a commercial one. Starts out only running during off hours, then running during active hours at a reduced rate, then it's got dedicated cars for the robots, then it overflows into passenger cars... you see where it's going. Best to set up guard rails before it's a problem.

in reply to kryptonianCodeMonkey

MaggiWuerze

in reply to kryptonianCodeMonkey • 1 mese fa • •

I actually thought a dedicated car would be a good solution. Of course as an additional car, not as a replacement for a passenger one. Then you could optimize the interior for these robots

in reply to kryptonianCodeMonkey

cheesorist

in reply to kryptonianCodeMonkey • 1 mese fa • •

This is China, not the US.
They're not as greedy and disgusting.

in reply to cheesorist

kryptonianCodeMonkey

in reply to cheesorist • 1 mese fa • •

Just because it's the US doesn't mean it's not bigoted to generalize people, especially with such insulting and hateful generalizations. And Chinese companies are as motivated by profit as any company is, which means they would be interested in maximizing cost efficiency by scaling up services like this. Putting policies in place to protect other priorities for the public good is sensible no matter where you are.

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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ via Socialism

2 mesi fa • •

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
2 mesi fa • •

Capitalism killed (at least) 3.4 billion people

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q5LMxXC8qWg

#socialism

Da Cap’n via Technology

2 mesi fa • •

Da Cap’n
2 mesi fa • •

Japan sets new internet speed world record — 4 million times faster than average US speeds

Japan sets new internet speed record — it's 4 million times faster than average US broadband speeds

A team of scientists in Japan shattered the record for the fastest internet speed by developing new fiber optics.

^{Perri Thaler (Live Science)}

#technology

like this

in reply to lechekaflan

JohnEdwa

in reply to lechekaflan • 2 mesi fa (Ricevuto 1 mese fa) • •

Japan is already pretty damn close to achieving 100% fiber network coverage for every household.

in reply to JohnEdwa

lechekaflan

in reply to JohnEdwa • 1 mese fa • •

Not surprising it's already ahead, as about 20 years ago they offered 100mbps to anyone who could pay for it (a certain Danny Choo comes to mind).

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ via Science

2 mesi fa • •

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
2 mesi fa • •

Scientists stunned after finding one of Earth's most remote places blanketed in dangerous material: 'Is it snowing plastic … ?'

Yahoo fait partie de la famille de marques Yahoo.

^{www.yahoo.com}

#potd #potd2025 #pictureoftheday #nature #photography #thunder #naturephotography #weather #thunderstorm #notMyImage #TimothyJordan

#photography #nature #naturephotography #pictureoftheday #potd #weather #Thunderstorm #thunder #notmyimage #POTD2025 #timothyjordan

Peter Link via Palestine

2 mesi fa • •

Peter Link
2 mesi fa • •

Author Adam Shatz on ‘The World since October 7’ (II)

cross-posted from: lemmy.ml/post/33400817

July 19, 2025

Peter Link

2025-07-20 00:21:08

Author Adam Shatz on ‘The World since October 7’ (II)

July 19, 2025

Author Adam Shatz on ‘The World since October 7’ (II) - World-Outlook
In this essay, author Adam Shatz raises important issues that deserve further discussion in light of the gruesome October 7, 2023, attack led by Hamas that targeted civilians in Israel, the genocidal war Israel unleashed in retaliation on the entire …
^{world-outlook.com (World-Outlook)}

#Palestine

Peter Link via World News

2 mesi fa • •

Peter Link
2 mesi fa • •

Author Adam Shatz on ‘The World since October 7’ (II)

July 19, 2025

Author Adam Shatz on ‘The World since October 7’ (II) - World-Outlook

In this essay, author Adam Shatz raises important issues that deserve further discussion in light of the gruesome October 7, 2023, attack led by Hamas that targeted civilians in Israel, the genocidal war Israel unleashed in retaliation on the entire …

^{world-outlook.com (World-Outlook)}

#Worldnews

alyaza [they/she] via Technology

2 mesi fa • •

alyaza [they/she]
2 mesi fa • •

A Prominent OpenAI Investor Appears to Be Suffering a ChatGPT-Related Mental Health Crisis, His Peers Say

It's a very delicate thing to try to understand a public figure's mental health from afar. But unless Lewis is engaging in some form of highly experimental performance art that defies easy explanation — he didn't reply to our request for comment, and hasn't made further posts clarifying what he's talking about — it sounds like he may be suffering some type of crisis.
If so, that's an enormously difficult situation for him and his loved ones, and we hope that he gets any help that he needs.
At the same time, it's difficult to ignore that the specific language he's using — with cryptic talk of "recursion," "mirrors," "signals" and shadowy conspiracies — sounds strikingly similar to something we've been reporting on extensively this year: a wave of people who are suffering severe breaks with reality as they spiral into the obsessive use of ChatGPT or other AI products, in alarming mental health emergencies that have led to homelessness, involuntary commitment to psychiatric facilities, and even death.
Psychiatric experts are also concerned. A recent paper by Stanford researchers found that leading chatbots being used for therapy, including ChatGPT, are prone to encouraging users' schizophrenic delusions instead of pushing back or trying to ground them in reality.
Lewis' peers in the tech industry were quick to make the same connection. Earlier this week, the hosts of popular tech industry podcast "This Week in Startups" Jason Calacanis and Alex Wilhelm expressed their concerns about Lewis' disturbing video.

A Prominent OpenAI Investor Appears to Be Suffering a ChatGPT-Related Mental Health Crisis, His Peers Say

Bedrock co-founder Geoff Lewis has posted increasingly troubling content on social media, drawing concern from friends in the industry.

^{Joe Wilkins (Futurism)}

#technology

adhocfungus likes this.

brisk via Technology

2 mesi fa • •

brisk
2 mesi fa • •

Amazon Ring Cashes in on Techno-Authoritarianism and Mass Surveillance

Ring founder Jamie Siminoff is back at the helm of the surveillance doorbell company, and with him is the surveillance-first-privacy-last approach that made Ring one of the most maligned tech devices. Not only is the company reintroducing new versions of old features which would allow police to request footage directly from Ring users, it is also introducing a new feature that would allow police to request live-stream access to people’s home security devices.

‘FUCK CRIME:’ Inside Ring’s Quest to Become Law Enforcement’s Best Friend

Amazon's surveillance company has seeped into hundreds of American communities by throwing parties for police and giving them free devices.

^{Caroline Haskins (VICE)}

#technology

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like this

geneva_convenience via Progressive Politics

2 mesi fa • •

geneva_convenience
2 mesi fa • •

Top House Dem Hakeem Jeffries doesn’t endorse socialist Zohran Mamdani in NYC mayoral race in lukewarm statement after highly-anticipated meeting

House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries and socialist mayoral hopeful Zohran Mamdani finally sat down Friday for the first time since New York City’s primary — but the Democratic nominee left without an endorsement.

In a lukewarm statement, Jeffries called the pair’s hourlong meeting in his Brooklyn stomping grounds “constructive,” but did not indicate whether he would throw his weight behind the lefty candidate.

“We don’t really know each other well,” he has said. Jeffries has said Mamdani needs to “clarify” his stance on “Globalizing the Intifada” — a controversial phrase in the Israel-Gaza conflict.

Top House Dem Hakeem Jeffries doesn't endorse socialist Zohran Mamdani in NYC mayoral race in lukewarm statement after highly-anticipated meeting

Schumer is expected to meet with Mamdani soon, but no date has yet been set.

^{Craig McCarthy (New York Post)}

#progressivepolitics

like this

in reply to geneva_convenience

GuerillaGorillas

in reply to geneva_convenience • 2 mesi fa • •

Gotta say I’m really concerned how posts are using a right wing trash tabloid as a source.

in reply to GuerillaGorillas

geneva_convenience

in reply to GuerillaGorillas • 2 mesi fa • •

Glad you're not concerned about Jeffries refusing to endorse Mamdani. Are you saying the quote marks and claims made are false?

geneva_convenience via Progressive Politics

2 mesi fa • •

geneva_convenience
2 mesi fa • •

Bad optics

#progressivepolitics

like this

in reply to geneva_convenience

Artisian

in reply to geneva_convenience • 2 mesi fa • •

Surely it is possible to persuade some of those on the side of the oppressor, and that persuasion might require some tact. Surely.

geneva_convenience doesn't like this.

in reply to Artisian

geneva_convenience

in reply to Artisian • 2 mesi fa • •

Surely that "tact" wouldn't be throwing the oppressed under the bus in favor of the oppressor out of "fear for optics". Surely.

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in reply to Artisian

Warl0k3

in reply to Artisian • 2 mesi fa • •

God, I know it's paranoid but I always wonder if the people expressing this are just some rightwing psy-op. "Don't listen to the people saying optics are an important aspect of any movement! They are your oppressor!". It's not that they don't have a point, the people that say you shouldn't riot at all bcz think of how it looks etc. are just as bad, but like.... do they only get shown those people at the extremes, or something? Do they really just not understand that messaging has always been a fundemental part of any social movement?

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in reply to Warl0k3

geneva_convenience

in reply to Warl0k3 • 2 mesi fa • •

Not now said the Liberal.

Do you understand the difference between optics and abandoning all principles?

Martin Luther King Jr.’s Challenge to his Liberal Allies | AAIHS

Martin Luther King Jr. press conference, Atlanta GA, Southern Christian Leadership Conference office 1966. (Photo: Bob Fitch Photography Archive, Stanford U ...

^{Jeanne Theoharis (AAIHS)}

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in reply to geneva_convenience

Warl0k3

in reply to geneva_convenience • 2 mesi fa • •

I'm sorry, I'm unclear on what you're saying here. That there is nuance in that difference was... my entire point. King was a master of working optics to further a social cause, it's a large part of why he has had such a lasting impact.

in reply to Warl0k3

geneva_convenience

in reply to Warl0k3 • 2 mesi fa • •

Which is why he was incredibly unpopular during his time?

in reply to geneva_convenience

Warl0k3

in reply to geneva_convenience • 2 mesi fa • •

He was hugely popular, that's... why they killed him?

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

geneva_convenience doesn't like this.

in reply to Warl0k3

geneva_convenience

in reply to Warl0k3 • 2 mesi fa • •

Have you tried looking up his popularity numbers?

in reply to geneva_convenience

in reply to geneva_convenience • 2 mesi fa • •

A third response is still valid, though. It's the cornerstone of everything from data science to regular science. Removing something as sensitive as a poll from it's context is to remove all meaning from it, but again, he was indeed hugely popular. Even the gallup polls at the time support this. I'm really lost as to what you're getting at.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to Warl0k3

geneva_convenience

in reply to Warl0k3 • 2 mesi fa • •

2011 is after MLK's time FYI

in reply to geneva_convenience

Warl0k3

in reply to geneva_convenience • 2 mesi fa • •

Again, yes? I'm not sure how embedding the image changes it's meaning, but I'm still quite curious as to what your point is.

in reply to Warl0k3

geneva_convenience

in reply to Warl0k3 • 2 mesi fa • •

favorable 33

unfavorable 63

mhhhh

in reply to geneva_convenience

Warl0k3

in reply to geneva_convenience • 2 mesi fa • •

So instead of elaborating... you're just going to meme? I mean sure go ahead, it just feels kinda, idk, pointless. ba-dum tss.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

in reply to Warl0k3

geneva_convenience

in reply to Warl0k3 • 2 mesi fa • •

What do numbers mean anyways?

in reply to geneva_convenience

Warl0k3

crankyrebel
2 mesi fa • •

“In the end, you’re measured not by how much you undertake but by what you finally accomplish.” - Trump

#memes

like this

in reply to crankyrebel

JumpyWombat

in reply to crankyrebel • 2 mesi fa • •

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 mese fa)

in reply to crankyrebel

MisterD

in reply to crankyrebel • 2 mesi fa • •

Nah. He's on page 80 or 85

mintiefresh via NBA

2 mesi fa • •

mintiefresh
2 mesi fa • •

[Charania] BREAKING: Marcus Smart has agreed to a contract buyout with the Washington Wizards and intends to sign a two-year, $11 million deal with the Los Angeles Lakers after clearing waivers

in reply to mintiefresh

VodkaSolution

in reply to mintiefresh • 2 mesi fa • •

Is Smart's career over after the Celtics? Or do you think he's looking for a comeback?
I thought he was good

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

AlHouthi4President via World News

2 mesi fa • •

AlHouthi4President
2 mesi fa • •

There is no food in Gaza

cross-posted from: lemmy.ml/post/33397111

Breaking | In an urgent and important press statement, Gaza Health Ministry reports and appeals to the world:
⭕️Unprecedented numbers of starved civilians of all ages are arriving at emergency departments in severe exhaustion and fatigue.
⭕️We warn that hundreds of severely emaciated Palestinians are at imminent risk of death due to hunger and their bodies’ inability to endure any longer.
Gaza Update Summary (July 16th - July 19th, 2025)
🚨 The past four days have been defined by a dual crisis of escalating IOF massacres and a catastrophic, deepening famine. IOF operations systematically targeted civilians in designated "safe zones" and at aid distribution points, particularly in Khan Younis and Rafah, while the north faced relentless demolition. We saw the famine's death toll rise, sparking popular protests against aid hoarders as the humanitarian situation collapsed completely.
Wednesday, July 16th: The slaughter of civilians was marked by a horrific massacre at an American aid distribution center in Rafah, where over 20 martyrs ascended due to suffocation and gas, including those on a "pre-approved list." This pattern was repeated throughout the day, targeting the displaced and hungry in tents in Mawasi Khan Younis and Nusseirat. Shelters were not spared, as the IOF bombed the Abu Helou school in Bureij, resulting in 4 martyrs, and struck the historic Latin Church in Gaza City, resulting in 3 martyrs from the Christian community. In Jabalia, the entire Shahab famil (father, mother, and their five daughters) was annihilated under the rubble of their home. 94 martyrs ascended and over 370 were wounded. 26 aid seekers were martyred as well.
Thursday, July 17th: The crisis of starvation reached a terrifying new peak, with children like Zain Al-Dremeili ascending due to malnutrition and reports of people collapsing from hunger in the streets. The bombardment escalated on Khan Younis, with airstrikes, artillery, and demolitions. IOF drones targeted tents in Mawasi. New evacuation orders were issued in Jabalia, and a strike resulted in 8 martyrs near Tawam roundabout who were protecting an aid convoy. At least 50 martyrs ascended on Thursday.
Friday, July 18th: The deepening famine ignited a "Revolution of the Hungry", with citizens storming merchants' warehouses in search food, only to be met with IOF drone fire. The IOF's campaign of genomicde continued with the massacre of the Abu Sahloul family in Khan Younis, where at least 8 were martyred under the rubble of their home. The famine claimed another life as the infant Sanaa Al-Lahham ascended, while in Deir al-Balah, 5 more were martyred in the chaos of an aid delivery. Further, the IOF continued to bomb tents, such as in Mawasi. A strike in Jabalia Al-Nazla claimed 5 more martyrs, while a bombing of a school saw two more. Another 50 martyrs on Friday.
Saturday, July 19th: Between the famine and bombing, another day of horrific massacres against entire families. We saw the annihilation of the Aql family in Nusseirat, where a single strike resulted in 12 martyrs, mostly women and children. The slaughter of the hungry reached a new low with over 60 martyrs ascending, including 35 aid seekers killed by IOF fire near the "Netzarim" axis. The famine continued to claim children's lives, including Joad Al-Anqar and Yahya Al-Najjar, as the IOF expanded its operations to the sea, raiding the Gaza beach and abducting several fishermen. Northern Gaza saw intense bombing in Sheikh Radwan and Jabalia, as well as martyrs killed while attempting to reach their homes. Today, over 116 martyrs have ascended so far, including 38 aid seekers.
Over 310 martyrs ascended in the last four days, amidst international and global silence despite calls for escalation and action. #GazaSummary

Telegram: Contact @PalestineResist

^Telegram

#Worldnews

in reply to AlHouthi4President

TuffNutzes

in reply to AlHouthi4President • 2 mesi fa • •

Descendants of the survivors of the Warsaw ghetto create a new "Warsaw ghetto" 85 years later.

Their bubbes must be so proud of them!

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

Bonus via PieFed help

2 mesi fa • •

Bonus
2 mesi fa • •

What's happening to my post? Blurred, red flagged?

Can't make sense of it. Might be flagged remotely as AI? I'm the mod. Shouldn't I be able to see what this is about?

Just catching up, night be suspiciously too many posts back to back?

piefed.social/post/1057697

It's also getting downvoted. Somebody has an issue with it

Edit: Nevermind, he's an AI artist. I didn't realize, am taking down.

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ via Canada

2 mesi fa • •

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
2 mesi fa • •

Could publicly-owned grocery stores break Canada’s grocery oligopoly?

Could publicly-owned grocery stores break Canada’s grocery oligopoly? - Ricochet

A bold proposal from New York’s Zohran Mamdani is sparking interest north of the border. Experts say a Canadian public option is not only possible — it’s long overdue

^{Jeremy Appel (Ricochet)}

#canada

Unknown parent

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆

Unknown parent • 2 mesi fa • •

LMFAO, prices aren't a force of nature, they are set by people who own businesses who want to increase their profits. It's obvious that the issue doesn't lie with QE, but with private ownership of essential industries.

Unknown parent

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆

Unknown parent • 2 mesi fa • •

Please read what I actually wrote above because it addresses your question. There's no contradiction here, BoC expects inflation to rise as a result of QE, but the reason for that people who own companies decide to raise prices. Let me know if you're still having trouble understanding this, and need me to use smaller words.

The only thing weird here is that a grown ass adult would have trouble understanding something so basic.

suoko via L’angolo del lettore

2 mesi fa • •

suoko
2 mesi fa • •

La notte dei biplani

Metti insieme un po' di neuralink, un po' di Firefox volpe di fuoco e un buon 5% del pil e viene fuori un bel prodottino veramente utile al genere umano.

Che poi, uomini. Mica erano uomini quelli. Ragazzi? Bambini spaventati. Con il cavo del BOT che gli spenzolava dal collo e le mani che non riuscivano a star ferme per via dei tremori.
"Non bevete l'Absynx", ci dicevano," una droga, vi fa male, vi distrugge il cervello". Ah si, certo. Perché il BOT, invece? Cosa combina al cervello? Quando siamo collegati tutti insieme, noi del carro, io sento i loro pensieri, entro nei loro corpi,e vedo. Vedo. E poi a cosa vi servono i nostri cervelli in fondo?
Volete che sopravviviamo per uccidere e farci uccidere.》
Freddo.
Ci avete mandato in battaglia. Contro il nemico? No. In Irlanda. Ma che ci avevano fatto gli irlandesi? Parlano la nostra lingua, sono proprio come noi."Non importa", dicevate, "dovete fare il vostro dovere e basta". Così l'abbiamo fatto. Ci siamo trasformati in un mostro ircocervo con cento gambe, cento braccia, dita di mitragliatrice e naso di cannone. Abbia-
mo sparato. E sapete una cosa?È stato bello. Bello, si, perché quando diventi un mostro, l'orrore è meraviglia.)
Non vedeva più niente, non sentiva niente. Era scivolato in una valle d'ombra da cui non c'era ritorno.
Poi ci avete mandato al fronte, dove c'erano i nemici veri, dove ci saremmo fatti onore. Invece ho visto solo trincee fangose, uomini pieni di pidocchi, sguardi tristi, filo spinato. E il nemico? Altre trincee, pidocchi, sguardi, filo spinato. Proprio come noi, anche quelli li. E io tremavo ormai, bevevo, avevo freddo, e Faulkner ci è morto a cena, stavamo mangiando e lui ha gridato ed è piombato a faccia in giù nella scodella del brodo, stava male già da tempo, perdeva sempre sangue dal naso."Pazienza", avete detto,"ve ne manderemo un altro".
"Domani ci sarà battaglia?", ho chiesto io."Ma certo Maddox

La notte dei biplani - Editrice Il Castoro

^{Editrice Il Castoro}

#Libri

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ via United States | News & Politics

2 mesi fa • •

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
2 mesi fa • •

Economy under threat this year as hundreds of thousands of people leave U.S.

With the U.S. expected to have a population exodus of hundreds of thousands of people, at least 500k individuals, the stability of the economy is on the line.

^{Alexangel Ventura (The Daily Drop)}

#USA

pancake likes this.

WanderWisley via Memes

2 mesi fa • •

WanderWisley
2 mesi fa • •

The ratings would be through the roof.

#memes

like this

in reply to WanderWisley

SabinStargem

in reply to WanderWisley • 2 mesi fa • •

Crassus is a model we wish all billionaires aspire to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR7VDPUj5AE

in reply to WanderWisley

Mangoholic

in reply to WanderWisley • 1 mese fa • •

Alternatively we can just take their stuff and throw them in jail. After all the system was designed for them to become what they are.
Good enough for me.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ via Share Funny Videos, Images, Memes, Quotes and more

2 mesi fa • •

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
2 mesi fa • •

The Invention of Scarcity

#funny

pancake likes this.

XR Auxerre

2 mesi fa • •

XR Auxerre
2 mesi fa • •

Visio mensuelle XR Auxerre

4 août 2025, 20:00:00 CEST - GMT+2

Ago 4

Visio mensuelle XR Auxerre

Lun 20:00 - 21:00

👋🏼 Bonjour à toustes,

Le groupe local d'Extinction Rébellion d'Auxerre se retrouve une fois par mois en présentiel et une fois par mois en visio pour une plus grande accessibilité à toustes sur notre territoire rural.

🖥️ Prochaine rencontre en visio : lundi 4 aout à 20h.

📧 Écrivez nous pour vous inscrire : auxerre@extinctionrebellion.fr

Au programme : Accueil, retour sur les actions passées et projets en cours.

Si vous voulez rejoindre XR dans l'Yonne, vous êtes les bienvenu·e·s à cette visio.

avec Amour & Rage ❤️‍🔥

#ExtinctionRebellion #Bourgogne #visio #auxerre

Questa voce è stata modificata (2 mesi fa)

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ via Science

2 mesi fa • •

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
2 mesi fa • •

'Universal cancer vaccine' trains the immune system to kill any tumor

Following on from a breakthrough human trial that reprogrammed the immune system to overpower an aggressive brain tumor, scientists have now used the same mRNA tech to attack any cancer. It could make chemotherapy, surgery and radiation redundant.

^{Bronwyn Thompson (New Atlas)}

#science

pancake likes this.

geneva_convenience via United States | News & Politics

2 mesi fa • •

geneva_convenience
2 mesi fa • •

Vehicle drives into Los Angeles crowd injuring 30 people

A vehicle drove into a busy crowd of people waiting to get into a nightclub in Los Angeles early Saturday, injuring 30 people, with at least five in critical condition.

The incident took place on Santa Monica Boulevard, the city’s fire department said, and people were quickly transported to local hospitals and trauma centers.

According to Cpt Adam VanGerpen, the public information officer for the LA fire department, the line of people struck by the vehicle, a Nissan Versa, were mostly female, and were waiting to get into the nightclub when the car also hit a taco truck and a nearby valet stand.

Vehicle drives into Hollywood crowd injuring more than 20

Los Angeles fire department says up to five people are in critical condition after incident on Santa Monica Boulevard

^{Guardian staff reporter (The Guardian)}

#USA

XR Auxerre

2 mesi fa • •

XR Auxerre
2 mesi fa • •

25 juillet 2025, 20:00:00 CEST - GMT+2 - Auxerre (89000), France

Lug 25

Réunion mensuelle XR Auxerre

Ven 20:00 - 21:00

👋🏼 Bonjour à toustes,

Le groupe local d'Extinction Rébellion d'Auxerre se retrouve une fois par mois en présentiel et une fois par mois en visio pour une plus grande accessibilité à toustes sur notre territoire.

🗣️ Prochaine rencontre en présentiel : vendredi 25 juillet à 20h00.

📧 Écrivez nous pour vous inscrire : auxerre@extinctionrebellion.fr

Au programme : Accueil, retour sur actions passées et projets en cours.

Si vous voulez rejoindre XR dans l'Yonne, vous êtes les bienvenu·e·s à cette réunion.

🍻 N'hésitez pas à venir avec quelque chose à boire, à manger, à partager...

avec Amour & Rage ❤️‍🔥