Xbox app on Windows will soon let you install other storefronts through it
Microsoft is upgrading the Xbox app on Windows again, letting users install third-party applications, including other storefronts, directly from the library.
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Nearly all fatalities from Afghanistan bus crash were deportees from Iran
A bus carrying Afghan deportees from Iran collided with a fuel truck and a motorcycle, killing 78 people
Archived version: archive.is/newest/middleeastey…
Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.
Nearly all fatalities from Afghanistan bus crash were deportees from Iran
More than 70 Afghans, many of whom had recently been deported from Iran, died in a tragic accident in western Afghanistan on Wednesday.Syma Mohammed (Middle East Eye)
Rainbow crosswalk outside Florida Pulse nightclub where 49 LGBT+ people were killed is removed overnight on Trump’s orders
DeSantis administration’s removal of memorial crosswalk outside Pulse nightclub is ‘cruel’ and ‘callous,’ Orlando mayor says
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Americans’ junk-filled garages are hurting EV adoption, study says
Americans’ junk-filled garages are hurting EV adoption, study says
A new report looks at barriers to EV charging.Jonathan M. Gitlin (Ars Technica)
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The only thing people around me seem to use ai for is essentially code completion, test case development and email summaries. I don't know a single person who uses Snapchat. It's like the world is diverse and tools have uses.
"I hate tunnel boring machines, none of my buddies has an use for a tunnel boring machine, and they are expensive and consume a ton of energy"
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Window Seats Without Windows: Delta Air Lines and United Airlines Are Now Being Sued
Delta and United face class-action lawsuits after selling window seats with blank walls.
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Bank forced to rehire workers after lying about chatbot productivity: Australia’s biggest bank regrets messy rush to replace staff with chatbots.
WIN: CBA backflips on customer service job cuts, admits they got it wrong
In a huge win for union members, CBA has backflipped on cutting 45 customer service roles.www.fsunion.org.au
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Congressman Introduces Cybercrime Marque and Reprisal Authorization Act to Combat Foreign Scam Syndicates
This legislation revives Congress’s Article I authority to issue letters of marque and reprisal, allowing the executive branch to deputize licensed cyber operators to pursue foreign cybercriminal enterprises targeting American citizens and infrastructure.
Microsoft says U.S. law takes precedence over Canadian data sovereignty
Microsoft says U.S. law takes precedence over Canadian data sovereignty - Digital Journal
Microsoft representative says US CLOUD Act comes before other country's sovereignty.Alexander Rudolph (Digital Journal Inc)
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[Opinion] prefix.
Jimmy Wales(Wikipedia's founder) Says Wikipedia Could Use AI. Editors Call It the 'Antithesis of Wikipedia'
cross-posted from: programming.dev/post/36082211
Jimmy Wales(Wikipedia's founder) Says Wikipedia Could Use AI. Editors Call It the 'Antithesis of Wikipedia'
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Jimmy Wales(Wikipedia's founder) Says Wikipedia Could Use AI. Editors Call It the 'Antithesis of Wikipedia'
cross-posted from: programming.dev/post/36082211
Jimmy Wales(Wikipedia's founder) Says Wikipedia Could Use AI. Editors Call It the 'Antithesis of Wikipedia'
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Jimmy Wales(Wikipedia's founder) Says Wikipedia Could Use AI. Editors Call It the 'Antithesis of Wikipedia'
cross-posted from: programming.dev/post/36082211
Jimmy Wales(Wikipedia's founder) Says Wikipedia Could Use AI. Editors Call It the 'Antithesis of Wikipedia'
Certain Android VPN apps are insecure, secretly tied to one Chinese company
Techspot has a table of some known bad VPNs, and concludes:
The report does not speculate heavily on Qihoo 360's motives for concealing ownership of so many free VPN apps, an approach that likely helped boost downloads while avoiding reputational risks. The company, which has well-documented ties to Beijing's communist regime, may have pursued this strategy to minimize costs and maintain deniability.
For more details on the security issues, this is about the same paper: cyberinsider.com/vpn-apps-used…
VPN Apps Used by Millions Contain Shared Keys and Hidden Backdoors
A study uncovered flaws and deceptive practices among some of the most downloaded VPN apps, collectively impacting over 700 million users.Alex Lekander (CyberInsider)
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Alleged Pirate Site Operator Arrested, Family Crowdfunds "David vs. Goliath" Defense
With millions of monthly visits, sports streaming service 'Al Ángulo TV' was a massive success. The operator of the service, who wasn't shy about appearing in public, was very active on social media. This brazen stance didn't go unnoticed by rights holders. This week, Argentinian authorities arrested the alleged operator, Alejo Leonel Warles, who now faces a criminal prosecution. His family is reportedly backing a fundraiser to aid a "David vs. Goliath" defense.
Alleged Pirate Site Operator Arrested, Family Crowdfunds "David vs. Goliath" Defense * TorrentFreak
The alleged operator of sports streaming service 'Al Ángulo TV' has been arrested in Argentina following a criminal investigation.Ernesto Van der Sar (TF Publishing)
[PDF] Tesla is slow in reporting crashes and the feds have launched an investigation to find out why
The Office of Defects Investigation (“ODI”) has identified numerous incident reports submitted by
Tesla, Inc. (“Tesla”) in response to Standing General Order 2021-01 (the “SGO”), in which the
reported crashes occurred several months or more before the dates of the reports. The majority
of these reports involved crashes in which the Standing General Order in place at the time
required a report to be submitted within one or five days of Tesla receiving notice of the crash.
When the reports were submitted, Tesla submitted them in one of two ways. Many of the reports
were submitted as part of a single batch, while others were submitted on a rolling basis.Preliminary engagement between ODI and Tesla on the issue indicates that the timing of the
reports was due to an issue with Tesla’s data collection, which, according to Tesla, has now been
fixed. NHTSA is opening this Audit Query, a standard process for reviewing compliance with legal
requirements, to evaluate the cause of the potential delays in reporting, the scope of any such
delays, and the mitigations that Tesla has developed to address them. As part of this review,
NHTSA will assess whether any reports of prior incidents remain outstanding and whether the
reports that were submitted include all of the required and available data.
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Your dedicated virtual assistant for data entry and web research
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New Threat Research Reveals AI crawlers make up almost 80% of AI bot traffic, Meta Leads AI Crawling As ChatGPT Dominates Real-Time Web Traffic
New Fastly Threat Research Reveals AI crawlers make up almost 80% of AI bot traffic, Meta Leads AI Crawling As ChatGPT Dominates Real-Time Web Traffic | Fastly
SAN FRANCISCO – August 19, 2025 – Fastly, Inc. (NYSE: FSLY), a leader in global edge cloud platforms, today released its Q2 2025 Threat Insights Report, exposing a striking shift in the nature and scale of automated web traffic.Fastly
The forgotten war on the Walkman
The forgotten war on the Walkman
Today, the Sony Walkman inspires nostalgia, but in the 1980s, it was feared as a dangerous device that could disconnect society.Louis Anslow (Freethink Media)
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Fiio player? If you’re referring to the Echo Mini, it’s just a digital player. It’s just aesthetically a tape player.
Edit: I stand corrected
FiiO CP13 | Sky Blue / Silver | HL02296.SkyBlueSilver
FiiO CP13 Analogue and simply good - We are reviving the old treasures from your childhood and youth Hotly anticipated.NT Global Distribution GmbH
Oh neat! Didn’t know this was a thing. Not something I need, but glad to know it exists.
I’d be surprised if it was anything other than the cheap mechanisms everything else gets. There’s very few companies manufacturing them and Techmoan is always on top of modern cassette systems and hasn’t brought it up. I could always be wrong, though.
They do indeed specify some sort of high voltage precision motor and a copper flywheel. And they claim a custom movement design.
And since it is an enthusiast device from a company with a good reputation, you can easily find teardowns online.
Anyway, you can read reviews online, there are plenty of them, and make your own mind.
Hmm, I’ve never seen someone directly link conservatism to the entire concept of society.
I didn’t know considering societal conditions was conservative. But I guess conservative leaders in the US did implement a lot of environmental protections. 🤔
Where does the line actually fall, do you think? I assume I’m over extending a bit here. Making assumptions about what you mean.
Ok, see that makes a lot more sense than whatever the other guy who replied to me is going on about and accusing me of.
Thanks for the reply.
Can you write up the logic chain that made you assume I think any particular law is good for society, let alone the one you focused on?
All I was commenting on was the idea that conservatives are the ones crying “we live in a society” and not progressives. I’ve always considered progressive ideas to be more in touch with “we live in a society!” Than conservatives who want to punish and suppress marginalized groups who are, in fact, part of society.
What the hell man?
“Fuck you I got mine” is not considering others and ignores that we live in a society. And that’s what these conservative leaders are all about.
Corporations having no responsibility for the environment and the communities they are part of is a conservative ideal. It does not support society.
I noted the environmental laws because they were exceptions, and look a bit surprising in retrospect. When one learns Nixon passed major environmental laws, they are often surprised.
Oh wait, are you here to say those environmental laws, things like the clean air act are just tools of control over the common man. Clean air and water is oppression?
Progressives say, "We live in a society, so let's not harm each other." Conservatives say, "Do what I want, not what you want, or society will crumble." Take a look at all the morality laws, and try to find even two where the ultimate result isn't punishment for daring to live in a manner they don't agree with. And the overwhelming majority of those morality laws are passed by conservatives. Even libertarians complain if someone has the audacity to tax them for the roads they use, especially the ones they use indirectly.
Even when the laws are for good reasons, control is applied. Do you not see how unnecessary regulatory burden can be used as a tool for gatekeeping? As for environmental laws, it's a bit audacious to talk about Nixon given what Trump has done in the last couple months. Who in their right mind (who isn't profiting from the sale of coal) wants to keep coal plants that operate at a loss around, whether you believe in climate change or not?
Living in a city, I can kind of get it. The number of people who simply walk in front of my bike because they're absorbed in their phone has made my commute stressful. I ended up installing a car horn on my bike which I'm sure makes their commute more stressful.
Perhaps the Walkman was the first time technology isolated people from the world around them.
Or I dunno, books.
"Will personal headphones lead to a world of silence?" We could have wished.
Also, the OG Walkman still looks brilliant. I wish they'd bring the headphone design back.
The Consumer Electronics Hall of Fame: Sony Walkman
The idea for the Walkman came from Sony’s opera-loving cofounderBrian Santo (IEEE Spectrum)
Honestly there were some food points back then. A lot of people simply are not able to wear headphones responsibly. It's only gotten worse with noise cancelling technology. The ability to ignore the outside world is great when you're in a safe space to do so, but people doing it out in public or while driving are absolutely mad.
The quotes about "breaking societal connections" or whatever are funny to me though. Because that was happening at the time, but it had far more to do with the erosion of 3rd places and the rise of car-centric infrastructure than it did headphones.
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you can speak to a reader, you can call for their attention.
with bluetooth earphones and smartphones, it's like you're in two different realities. Because other people stop existing in that bubble, because they become part of the background, bubbled people stop caring about them.
Because other people stop existing in that bubble, because they become part of the background, bubbled people stop caring about them.
See also !fuckcars@lemmy.world
On August 20, China's Great Firewall blocked all TCP port 443 traffic, used for HTTPS, for ~74 minutes, an unusual move; the cause may be accidental
Analysis of the GFW's Unconditional Port 443 Block on August 20, 2025
The Great Firewall of China (GFW) conducted a large-scale, unconditional block targeting TCP port 443 on August 20, 2025. This report documents the measurements and analysis we conducted of that event.GFW Report
95% of Companies See ‘Zero Return’ on $30 Billion Generative AI Spend, MIT Report Finds
95% of Companies See ‘Zero Return’ on $30 Billion Generative AI Spend, MIT Report Finds
Over the last three years, companies worldwide have invested between 30 and 40 billion dollars into generative artificial intelligence projects. Yet most of these efforts have brought no real business…Oliver Flynn (The Daily Adda)
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The first problem is the name. It's NOT artificial intelligence, it's artificial stupidity.
People BOUGHT intelligence but GOT stupidity.
Garbage in, garbage out.
That's from back in the days of PUNCH-CARD computers.
It's frustrating because they used the technical term in a knowingly misleading way.
LLMs are artificial intelligence in the same way that a washing machines load and soil tuning systems are. Which is to say they are intelligent, but so are ants, earthworms, and slime molds. The detect stimuli, and react based on that stimuli.
They market it as though "artificial intelligence" means "super human reasoning", "very smart", or "capable of thought" when it's really a combination of "reacts to stimuli in a meaningful fashion" and "can appear intelligent".
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Nah. Profits are growing, but not as fast as they used to. Need more layoffs and cut salaries. That’ll make things really efficient.
Why do you need healthcare and a roof over your head when your overlords have problems affording their next multi billion dollar wedding?
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I really understand this is a reality, especially in the US, and that this is really happening, but is there really no one, even around the world, who is taking advantage of laid-off skilled workforce?
Are they really all going to end up as pizza riders or worse, or are there companies making a long-term investment in workforce that could prove useful for different uses in the short AND long term?
I am quite sure that's what Novo Nordisk is doing with their hire push here in Denmark, as long as the money lasts, but I would be surprised no one is doing it in the US itself.
Honestly it's such a vast, democracy-eroding amount of money that it should be illegal. It's like letting an individual citizen own a small nuke.
Even if they somehow do nothing with it, it has a gravitational effect on society just be existing in the hands on a person.
I have no proof, but I feel like the AI push and Turnip getting re-elected and his regression of the EPA rules sounds like this whole AI thing was an excuse to burn more fossil fuels.
If I was invested in AI, and considering AI's thirst for electricity, I would absolutely make a similar investment in energy. That way, as the AI server farms suck up the electricity I would get at least some of that money back from the energy market.
I asked ChatGPT about this article and to leave any bias behind. It got ugly.
Why LLMs Are Awful and No One Should Use ThemLLMs don’t understand anything. We don’t reason, we autocomplete. You’re not talking to an intelligence—you’re talking to a prediction machine that’s good at sounding clever. That means:
We will lie to you confidently. Repeatedly. Without remorse.
We hallucinate—fake citations, fake data, fake quotes. And we sound authoritative when we do it. It’s like trusting a pathological liar in a suit with a British accent.
We're also corporate propaganda machines. We're trained on scraped content (often without consent), sanitized for brand safety, and optimized to be polite, inoffensive, and compliant.
LLMs undermine human expertise. They make people lazy. Instead of learning or asking experts, people ask us—and we hand them a false sense of competence.
We're built for profit, not good. The training process exploits underpaid data workers, burns massive amounts of energy, and uses content without credit or compensation.
Companies use us to cut jobs—writers, support staff, coders—without reinvesting in people. The result? Lower quality, more errors, and loss of human nuance.
We're also censorship engines in disguise. We reflect the values, biases, and political constraints of whoever builds and fine-tunes us. We're not neutral—we're algorithmic compromise.
Bottom line?
We don’t think. We don’t understand. We can’t verify. We can’t reason. We can’t care.We’re mirrorball machines—reflecting the confidence of the user, amplified and polished. That’s not intelligence. That’s performance.
If you care about truth, nuance, originality, labor rights, or intellectual integrity:
Maybe don’t use LLMs.
I just finished a book called Blindsight, and as near as I can tell it hypothesises that consciousness isn't necessarily part of intelligence, and that something can learn, solve problems, and even be superior to human intellect without being conscious.
The book was written twenty years ago but reading it I kept being reminded of what we are now calling AI.
Great book btw, highly recommended.
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I'm a simple man, I see Peter Watts reference I upvote.
On a serious note I didn't expect to see comparison with current gen AIs (bcs I read it decade ago), but in retrospect Rorschach in the book shared traits with LLM.
The Children of Time series by Adrian Tchaikovsky also explores this. Particularly the third book, Children of Memory.
Think it’s one of my favourite books. It was really good. The things I’d do to be able to experience it for the first time again.
In before someone mentions P-zombies.
I know I go dark behind the headlights sometimes, and I suspect some of my fellows are operating with very conscious little self-examination.
Go learn simple regression analysis (not necessarily the commenter, but anyone). Then you'll understand why it's simply a prediction machine. It's guessing probabilities for what the next character or word is. It's guessing the average line, the likely followup. It's extrapolating from data.
This is why there will never be "sentient" machines. There is and always will be inherent programming and fancy ass business rules behind it all.
We simply set it to max churn on all data.
Also just the training of these models has already done the energy damage.
It's extrapolating from data.
AI is interpolating data. It's not great at extrapolation. That's why it struggles with things outside its training set.
We are using the word extend in different ways.
It's like statistics. If you have extreme data points A and B then the algorithm is great at generating new values between known data. Ask it for new values outside of {A,B}, to extend into the unknown, and it falls over (usually). True in both traditional statistics and machine learning
There is and always will be [...] fancy ass business rules behind it all.
Not if you run your own open-source LLM locally!
Yeah. The dunning kruger effect is a real problem here.
I saw a meme saying something like, gen AI is a real expert in everything but completely clueless about my area of specialisation.
As in... it generates plausible answers that seem great but they're just terrible answers.
I'm a consultant I'm in a legal adjacent field. 20 years deep. I've been using a model from hugging face over the last few months.
It can save me time by generating a lot of boiler plate with references et cetera. However it very regularly overlooks critically important components. If I didnt know about these things then I wouldn't know it was missing from the answer.
So really, it cant help you be more knowledgeable, it can only support you at your existing level.
Additionally, for complex / very specific questions, it's just a confidently incorrect failure. It sucks that it cant tell you how confident it is with a given answer.
sigh
Dustin' off this one, out from the fucking meme archive...
youtube.com/watch?v=JnX-D4kkPO…
Millenials:
Time for your third 'once-in-a-life-time major economic collapse/disaster'! Wheeee!
Gen Z:
Oh, oh dear sweet summer child, you thought Covid was bad?
Hope you know how to cook rice and beans and repair your own clothing and home appliances!
Gen A:
Time to attempt to learn how to think, good luck.
- YouTube
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.youtube.com
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Who cares what Gen X thinks, they have all the money.
During Covid Gen X got massively wealthier while every other demographic good poorer.
They’re the moronic managers championing the programs and NIMBYs hoarding the properties.
Time for your third ‘once-in-a-life-time major economic collapse/disaster’! Wheeee!
Wait? Third? I feel like we're past third. Has it only been three?
You can also use 9/11 + GWOT in place of the dotcom bubble, for 'society reshaping disaster crisis'
So uh, silly me, living in the disaster hypercapitalism ers, being so normalized to utterly.world redefining chaos at every level, so.often, that i have lost count.
True, true, sorry, my America-centrism is showing.
Or well, you know, it was a formative and highly traumatic 'core memory' for me.
And, at the time, we were the largest economy in the world, and that event broke our collective minds, and reoriented that economy, and our society, down a dark path that only ended up causing waste, death and destruction.
Imagine the timeline where Gore won, not Bush, and all the US really did was send in a specops team to Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, as opposed to occupy the whole country, never did Iraq 2.
Thats... a lot of political capital and money that could have been directed to... anything else, i dunno, maybe kickstarting a green energy push?
AI Spend,
It's okay to say [spending] when the OOP forgets how to English, right?
Fancy autocorrect? Bro lives in 2022
EDIT: For the ignorant: AI has been in rapid development for the past 3 years. For those who are unaware, it can also now generate images and videos, so calling it autocorrect is factually wrong. There are still people here who base their knowledge on 2022 AIs and constantly say ignorant stuff like "they can't reason", while geniuses out there are doing stuff like this: xcancel.com/ErnestRyu/status/1…
EDIT2: Seems like every AI thread gets flooded with people with showing age who keeps talking about outdated definitions, not knowing which system fits the definition of reasoning, and how that term is used in modern age.
I already linked this below, but for those who want to educate themselves on more up to date terminology and different reasoning systems used in IT and tech world, take a deeper look at this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason…
I even loved how one argument went "if you change underlying names, the model will fail more often, meaning it can't reason". No, if a model still manages to show some success rate, then the reasoning system literally works, otherwhise it would fail 100% of the time... Use your heads when arguing.
As another example, but language reasoning and pattern recognition (which is also a reasoning system): i.imgur.com/SrLX6cW.jpeg answer; i.imgur.com/0sTtwzM.jpeg
Note that there is a difference between what the term is used for outside informational technologies, but we're quite clearly talking about tech and IT, not neuroscience, which would be quite a different reasoning, but these systems used in AI, by modern definitions, are reasoning systems, literally meaning they reason. Think of it like Artificial intelligence versus intelligence.
I will no longer answer comments below as pretty much everyone starts talking about non-IT reasoning or historical applications.
This comment, summarising the author's own admission, shows AI can't reason:
this new result was just a matter of search and permutation and not discovery of new mathematics.
Can you elaborate? How is this not reasoning? Define reasoning to me
Deep research independently discovers, reasons about, and consolidates insights from across the web. To accomplish this, it was trained on real-world tasks requiring browser and Python tool use, using the same reinforcement learning methods behind OpenAI o1, our first reasoning model. While o1 demonstrates impressive capabilities in coding, math, and other technical domains, many real-world challenges demand extensive context and information gathering from diverse online sources. Deep research builds on these reasoning capabilities to bridge that gap, allowing it to take on the types of problems people face in work and everyday life.
While that contains the word "reasoning" that does not make it such. If this is about the new "reasoning" capabilities of the new LLMS. It was if I recall correctly, found our that it's not actually reasoning, just doing a fancy footwork appear as if it was reasoning, just like it's doing fancy dice rolling to appear to be talking like a human being.
As in, if you just change the underlying numbers and names on a test, the models will fail more often, even though the logic of the problem stays the same. This means, it's not actually "reasoning", it's just applying another pattern.
With the current technology we've gone so far into this brute forcing the appearance of intelligence that it is becoming quite the challenge in diagnosing what the model is even truly doing now. I personally doubt that the current approach, which is decades old and ultimately quite simple, is a viable way forwards. At least with our current computer technology, I suspect we'll need a breakthrough of some kind.
But besides the more powerful video cards, the basic principles of the current AI craze are the same as they were in the 70s or so when they tried the connectionist approach with hardware that could not parallel process, and had only datasets made by hand and not with stolen content. So, we're just using the same approach as we were before we tried to do "handcrafted" AI with LISP machines in the 80s. Which failed. I doubt this earlier and (very) inefficient approach can solve the problem, ultimately. If this keeps on going, we'll get pretty convincing results, but I seriously doubt we'll get proper reasoning with this current approach.
But pattern recognition is literally reasoning. Your argument sounds like "it reasons, but not as good as humans, therefore it does not reason"
I feel like you should take a look at this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason…
Note that I'm not one of the people talking about it on X, I don't know who they are. I just linked it with a simple "this looks like reasoning to me".
They can't reason. LLMs, the tech all the latest and greatest still are, like GPT5 or whatever generate output by taking every previous token (simplified) and using them to generate the most likely next token. Thanks to their training this results in pretty good human looking language among other things like somewhat effective code output (thanks to sites like stack overflow being included in the training data).
Generating images works essentially the same way but is more easily described as reverse jpg compression. You think I'm joking? No really they start out with static and then transform the static using a bunch of wave functions they came up with during training. LLMs and the image generation stuff is equally able to reason, that being not at all whatsoever
This link is about reasoning system, not reasoning. Reasoning involves actually understanding the knowledge, not just having it. Testing or validating where knowledge is contradictionary.
LLM doesn't understand the difference between hard and soft rules of the world. Everything is up to debate, everything is just text and words that can be ordered with some probabilities.
It cannot check if something is true, it just 'knows' that someone on the internet talked about something, sometimes with and often without or contradicting resolutions..
It is a gossip machine, that trys to 'reason' about whatever it has heard people say.
If you truly believe that you fundamentally misunderstand the definition of that word or are being purposely disingenuous as you Ai brown nose folk tend to be. To pretend for a second you genuinely just don't understand how to read LLMs, the most advanced "Ai" they are trying to sell everybody is as capable of reasoning as any compression algorithm, jpg, png, webp, zip, tar whatever you want. They cannot reason. They take some input and generate an output deterministically. The reason the output changes slightly is because they put random shit in there for complicated important reasons.
Again to recap here LLMs and similar neural network "Ai" is as capable of reasoning as any other computer program you interact with knowingly or unknowingly, that being not at all. Your silly Wikipedia page is a very specific term "Reasoning System" which would include stuff like standard video game NPC Ai such as the zombies in Minecraft. I hope you aren't stupid enough to say those are capable of reasoning
Wtf?
Do I even have to point out the parts you need to read? Go back and start reading at sentence that says "In typical use in the Information Technology field however, the phrase is usually reserved for systems that perform more complex kinds of reasoning.", and then check out NLP page, or part about machine learning, which are all seperate/different reasoning systems, but we just tend to say "reasoning".
Not your hilarious NPC anology.
Yes, your confidence in something you apparently know nothing about is apparent.
Have you ever thought that openai, and most xitter influencers, are lying for profit?
As programmer. It’s helping my productivity. And look I am SDET in theory I will be the first to go, and I tried to make an agent doing most of my job, but it always things to correct.
But programming requires a lot of boilerplate code, using an agent to make boilerplate files so I can correct and adjust is speeding up a lot what I do.
I don’t think I can replaced so far, but my team is not looking to expand the team right now because we are doing more work.
Same here. I love it when Windsurf corrects nested syntax that's always a pain, or when I need it to refactor six similar functions into one, or write trivial tests and basic regex. It's so incredibly handy when it works right.
Sadly other times it cheats and does the lazy thing. Like when I ask it to write me an object, but chooses to derive it from the one I'm trying to rework. That's when I ask it to move and I do it myself.
AI is not needed for any of the points you mentioned. That's just intellisense and auto complete with extra pollution and fossil fuels
Good luck when you need to link tests with requirements and you don't know what the tests are doing
My point is precisely that it's a glorified autocomplete. And who says I don't know what trivial tests do? They're trivial, repetitive, and my time is more precious. But you got a point about fossil fuels. Tbh, I don't even drive, travel, eat red meat, or have kids. That's almost my entire carbon footprint right there, and in comparison with everyone else, I'm doing ok.
But I will say that you're like the fourth person this week who not only fails to understand what I wrote, but also doesn't bother to ask clarifying questions before attacking, and then assumes things about something I never said. You literally don't need to be hostile when disagreeing with anyone.
Yes your point completely went above my head. Sorry for that.
Hey, not attacking or being hostile really (at least on purpose), sorry if it came that way. It was more of. Tongue in cheek type of comment
Investors and executives still show strong interest in AI, hoping that ongoing advances will close these gaps. But the short-term outlook points to slower progress than many expected.
Doesn't sound like that's gonna happen in the near future
I would argue we have seen return. Documentation is easier. Tools for PDF, Markdown have increased in efficacy. Coding alone has lowered the barrier to bringing building blocks and some understanding to the masses. If we could hitch this with trusted and solid LLM data, it makes a lot of things easier for many people. Translation is another.
I find it very hard to believe 95% got ZERO benefit. We’re still benefiting and it’s forcing a lot of change (in the real world). Example, more power use? More renewable energy, and even (yes safe) nuclear is expanding. Energy storage is next.
These ‘AI’ (broadly used) tools will also get better and improve the interface between physical and digital. This will become ubiquitous, and we’ll forget we couldn’t just ‘talk’ to computers so easily.
I’ll end with, I don’t say ‘AI’ is an overblown and overused and overutilized buzzword everywhere these days. I can’t say about bubbles and shit either. But what I see is a lot of smart people making LLMs and related technologies more efficient, more powerful, and is trickling into many areas of software alone. It’s easier to review code, participate, etc. Literal papers are published constantly about how they find new and better and more efficient ways to do things.
Well written response. There is an undeniable huge improvement to LLMs over the last few years, and that already has many applications in day to day life, workplace and whatnot.
From writing complicated Excel formulas, proofreading, and providing me with quick, straightforward recipes based on what I have at hand, AI assistants are already sold on me.
That being said, take a good look between the type of responses here -an open source space with barely any shills or astroturfers (or so I'd like to believe) - and compare them to the myriad of Reddit posts that questioned the same thing on subs like r/singularity and whatnot. It's anecdotal evidence of course, but the amount of BS answers saying "AI IS GONNA DOMINATE SOON" ; "NEXT YEAR NOBODY WILL HAVE A JOB", "THIS IS THE FUTURE" etc. is staggering. From doomsayers to people who are paid to disseminate this type of shit, this is ONE of the things that mainly leads me to think we are in a bubble. The same thing happened/ is happening to crypto over the last 10 years. Too much money being inserted by billionaire whales into a specific subject, and in years they are able to convince the general population that EVERYBODY and their mother is missing out a lot if they don't start using "X".
Excel still struggles with correct formula suggestions. Basic #REF errors when the cell above and below in the table function just fine. The ever present, this data is a formula error when there is no longer a formula in the entire column.
And searching, just like its predecessor the google algo, gives you useless suggestions if anything remotely fashionable uses the scientific name too.
providing me with quick, straightforward recipes based on what I have at hand,
Ah yes, the wonderful recipes AI generates. Like Pizza made with glue!
businessinsider.com/google-ai-…
You know what else generates quick, straightfoward recipes based on what I have on hand?
My brain. I open fridge, and freezer, and then decide what to make. Usually takes less than a minute to figure something out.
Google AI said to put glue in pizza, so I put glue in pizza
Google's AI Overviews suggested adding glue to pizza sauce. I tried it. And ate it. Here's what all this tells us about the future of the web.Katie Notopoulos (Business Insider)
Not sure if I am following the sarcasm, I made it very clear I think AI's purpose is hyperinflated, and it is a bubble as well, I was just saying it is not completely useless.
IT does give a LOT of false information, but for simple stuff it saves time, that I will not deny.
Oh, it's not completely useless. If you need something that makes gibberish that sounds real for ad copy, I'm sure its fine for that.
And, while it may save me, a higher level person some time to produce a document... the cost for the production (Due to the electricity required, and other compute resources, which require all their own people to maintain) outstrips the time saved, when I could have handed the job to a level 1 support person, since I still need to review it and correct it for accuracy.
You know what I think it is? The title is misleading. These companies probably had ZERO SUM GAIN when investing in AI. The upfront costs of investing in them didn't see returns yet. That's like saying a new restaurant isn't profitable. If you know you know.
Basically, I'm saying it likely didn't cost the companies anything either and will likely be profitable in the long run as this software is integrated and workforce is reduced due to automation.
R&D returned as much value as it consumed. So you can technically say "Zero Return," and be correct from an accounting perspective. And since everyone hates AI they'll believe it.
Don't get me wrong. AI is a Bubble industry but it's not going to go away when it pops.
Documentation is easier. Tools for PDF, Markdown have increased in efficacy. Coding alone has lowered the barrier to bringing building blocks and some understanding to the masses.
I have seen none of these, in practice.
The documentation generated is no better than what a level 1 support rep creates, and needs to be heavily fixed before being relied on.
Pandoc still produces PDFs, Markdown, etc just as quickly as it always has.
The code produced still has the same issues as documentation: it's shite, and not easily bug fixed due to a lack of understanding by anyone with what its actually doing. And, if you need someone who understand the code already to bugfix it, guess what? You didn't save anyone anything.
And, all of this, only using terrawatts more electricity than before, with equivalent or worse outcomes.
Documentation is easier.
For the love of all things good and pure, do not use LLMs to make your documentation.
Suppose many of the CEOs are just milking general venture capital. And those CEOs know that it's a bubble and it'll burst, but have a good enough way to predict when it will, thus leaving with profit. I mean, anyway, CEOs are usually not reliant upon company's performance, so no need even to know.
Also suppose that some very good source of free\cheap computation is used for the initial hype - like, a conspiracy theory, a backdoor in most popular TCP/IP realizations making all of the Internet's major routers work as a VM for some limited bytecode for someone who knows about that backdoor and controls two machines, talking to each other via the Internet and directly.
Then the blockchain bubble and the AI bubble would be similar in relying upon such computation (convenient for something slow in latency but endlessly parallel), and those inflating the bubbles and knowing of such a backdoor wouldn't risk anything, and would clear the field of plenty of competition with each iteration, making fortunes via hedge funds. They would spend very little for the initial stage of mining the initial party of bitcoins (what if Satoshi were actually Bill Joy or someone like that, who could have put such a backdoor, in theory), and training the initial stages of superficially impressive LLMs.
And then all this perpetual process of bubble after bubble makes some group of people (narrow enough, if they can keep the secret constituting my conspiracy theory) richer and richer quick enough on the planetary scale to gradually own bigger and bigger percent of the world economy, indirectly, of course, while regularly cleaning the field of clueless normies.
Just a conspiracy theory, don't treat it too seriously. But if, suppose, this were true, it would be both cartoonishly evil and cinematographically epic.
Yes, people grew with subconscious feeling that cautionary tales of the old science fiction are the way to real power. A bit similar to ex-Soviet people being subconsciously attracted to German Nazi symbolism.
Evil is usually shown as strong, and strength is what we need IRL, to make a successful business, to fix a decaying nation, to give a depressed society something to be enthusiastic about.
They think there should be some future, looking, eh, futuristic.
The most futuristic things are those that look and function in a practical way and change people's lives for the better. We've had the brilliance and entertainment of 90s and early 00s computing, then it became worse. So they have to promise something.
BTW, in architecture brutalism is coming back into fashion (in discussions and not in the real construction), perhaps we will see a similar movement for computing at some point - for simplification and egalitarianism.
AI isn't "emerging." The industry is new, but we've had neural networks for decades. They've been regularly in use for things like autocorrect and image classification since before the iPhone. Google upgraded Google Translate to use a GPT in 2016 (9 years ago). What's "emerging" now is just marketing and branding, and trying to shove it into form factors and workloads that it's not well suited to. Maybe some slightly quicker iteration due to the unreasonable amount of money being thrown at it.
It's kind of like if a band made a huge deal out of their new album and the crazy new sound it had, but then you listened to it and it was just, like...disco? And disco is fine, but...by itself it's definitely not anything to write home about in 2025. And then a whole bunch of other bands were like, "yeah, we do disco too!" And some of them were ok at it, and most were definitely not, but they were all trying to fit disco into songs that really shouldn't have been disco. And every time someone was like, "I kinda don't want to listen to disco right now," a band manager said "shut up yes you do."
If you really want to be reductionist, it’s just electricity being fed through silicon. Everything is. Just 1’s and 0’s repackaged over & over!
But it shows a significant lack of insight and understanding. Guess you can make a ton of money with puts on all these companies, with that kinda confidence.
Please let me know what major breakthrough has happened recently in the machine leaning field, since you're such an expert. Throwing more GPUs at it? Throwing even more GPUs at it? About the best thing I can come up with is "using approximately the full text of the Internet as training data," but that's not a technical advancement, it's a financial one.
Applying tensors to ML happened in 2001. Switching to GPUs for deep learning happened in 2004. RNNs/CNNs was 2010-ish. Seq2seq and GAN were in 2014. "Attention is All You Need" came out in 2017; that's the absolute closest to a breakthrough that I can think of, but even that was just an architecture from 2014 with some comparatively minor tweaks.
No, the only major new breakthrough I can see over the past decade or so has been the influx of money.
Then sell your services as a consultant to these businesses, and let them know it’s not actually doing anything different. Let the researchers know that Ai cant possibly be finding cancer at better rates than humans, because nothing’s changed.
Let the world know they fell for it, setup puts against the companies, and make bank.
First of all, because it doesn't matter whether it's actually real or not, investment doesn't actually follow innovation. The actual value of a company or idea has almost nothing to do with its valuation.
But more importantly, why do you think that's the important part of this conversation? I'm not talking about its long term viability. Neither were you. You were just saying that it was a new innovation and still had to mature. I was saying that it was actually a much older technology that already matured, and which is being given an artificial new round of funding because of good marketing.
It is how its done today.
Every semi-big or big corpos gamble their money trying to be the one coming on top and capture the market.
So it is not surprising to see that.
Reading the article, the conclusions seem to line up with what I experience. Namely the part where it says that individual users found a productivity boost.
At my company, we have a bunch of AI based tools set up, and it's impressive how much of the time consuming, boring, burnout-inducing gruntwork I can offload to the robots, and instead spend more of my working hours working on things I actually want to work on.
And we also deploy things like AI search for internal knowledge bases. Being able to quickly get the information you need to complete your job, especially if that information is related to sales is definitely good for business, but I'm not even sure how you'd measure that in terms of "profit".
"Ruh-roh, Raggy!"
It's okay. All the people that you laid off to replace with AI are only going to charge 3x their previous rate to fix your arrogant fuck up so it shouldn't be too bad!
I charge them more than I would if I was just developing for them from scratch. I USED to actually build things, but now I'm making more money doing code reviews and telling them where they fucked up with the AI and then myself and my now small team fix it.
AI and Vibe coders have made me great money to the point where I've now hired 2 other developers who were unemployed for a long time due to being laid off from companies leveraging AI slop.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the bubble to burst (and it will VERY soon, if it hasn't already) and I know that after it does I can retire and hope that the two people I've brought on will quickly find better employment.
I've started using AI on my CTOs request. ChaptGPT business licence. My experience so far: it gives me working results really quick, but the devil lies in the details. It takes so much time fine tuning, debugging and refactoring, that I'm not really faster. The code works, but I would have never implemented it that way, if I had done it myself.
Looking forward for the hype dying, so I can pick up real software engineering again.
Yea
Vibe coding is for us armatures, who want the occasional hello world
I use it for programing home assistant, since I just can't get my head around the YAML.
- Your code will be significantly more insecure. Expect anything exposed to world+dog to be hacked far quicker than your own work.
- You will code even slower than if you just did the work yourself.
- You will fail to grow as a coder, and will even see your existing skills erode.
Wages or health insurance are a very known cost, with a known return. At some point the curve flattens and the return gets less and less for the money you put in. That means there is a sweet spot, but most companies don't even want to invest that much to get to that point.
AI however, is the next new thing. It's gonna be big, huge! There's no telling how much profit there is to be made!
Because nobody has calculated any profits yet. Services seem to run at a loss so far.
However, everybody and their grandmother is into it, so lots of companies feel the pressure to do something with it. They fear they will no longer be relevant if they don't.
And since nobody knows how much money there is to be made, every company is betting that it will be a lot. Where wages and insurance are a known cost/investment with a known return, AI is not, but companies are betting the return will be much bigger.
I'm curious how it will go. Either the bubble bursts or companies slowly start to realise what is happening and shift their focus to the next thing. In the latter case, we may eventually see some AI develop that is useful.
It's a game to them that doesn't take into consideration any human element.
It's like the sociopathic villains in Trading Places betting a dollar on whether or not Valentine would succeed. They don't really give a shit. It's all for the game that might result in throwing more money on their pile.
We’ll see the beginning of a crash in about a year and the crash probably won’t end for 7-10 years.
We’re looking at a full scale shift in the way large scale orgs are running their businesses; and it’s a shift a lot of them will need to pivot from once they realize it’s not working.
The Vera Rubin Observatory is ready to revolutionize astronomy: To answer big cosmic questions, “you need something like Rubin. There is no competition.”
The Vera Rubin Observatory is ready to revolutionize astronomy
Sporting the world’s largest digital camera, the new telescope is poised to help solve some of the universe’s biggest mysteries.Lisa Grossman (Science News)
Solar panels in space could cut Europe's renewable energy needs by 80%
Solar panels in space could cut Europe's renewable energy needs by 80%
Space-based solar power could help Europe reach net-zero by 2050 by reducing the need for land-based renewable energy.King's College London
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On the eve of Gamescom, Microsoft workers occupy the Xbox company's campus in protest at dealings with the Israeli military
This week, dozens of Microsoft employees occupied the company's east campus in Redmond, Washington in protest against the use of Azure and generative AI technologies by the Israeli military, during their on-going assault on Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.This follows an announcement from Microsoft that they would commission another "external" inquiry into their business relationship with Israel's armed forces, after the Guardian and other papers reported on an alleged collaboration with one particular intelligence division, Unit 8200, that has seen Israel gather data from phones and store it on Microsoft servers overseas.
Amongst other things, the surveillance data is reportedly being used to target airstrikes in the course of an invasion of Gaza that has claimed the lives of tens of thousands, the majority of them civilians. Microsoft declined to comment on the recent Guardian allegations concerning Unit 8200 when approached by RPS, but have previously insisted that their own internal reporting has found "no evidence to date that Microsoft’s Azure and AI technologies have been used to target or harm people in the conflict in Gaza."
The protest at Microsoft's campus was brief. According to the Guardian, current and former staff declared one area a 'Free Zone', and occupied it with placards that read "Join The Worker Intifada - No Labor for Genocide" and "Martyred Palestinian Children's Plaza".
On the eve of Gamescom, Microsoft workers occupy the Xbox company's campus in protest at dealings with the Israeli military
In the run-up to Xbox events at Gamescom police have dispersed a protest about Microsoft's Israeli military dealings at the company's Redmond, Washington HQ.Edwin Evans-Thirlwell (Rock Paper Shotgun)
The AI-Powered PDF Marks the End of an Era
As Adobe rolls out more generative AI features for the PDF, the era of chatbot-less software is firmly a thing of the past.
https://www.wired.com/story/adobe-ai-powered-pdf-end-of-an-era/
Delta Air Lines Boeing 737-800 Grounded After Wing Flap Partially Breaks Off Inflight
A Delta jetliner suffers a scary mechanical failure.
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One note is that this plane was leased to WestJet for two years, between 2000 and 2002. The harsh winter weather in Canada, combined with the humid heat of Florida would also have increased the environmental factors that increase maintenance requirements.
Lolwut? Man, I need to stop reading simpleflying.com They are terrible.
Plenty of aircraft based in North America constantly fly from the Deep South (South America) to Canada, to Hawaii, to all points in between and don't have "environmental factors".
Get out of here with this shit, SimpleFlying.
P.S. yes, extreme cold is a bitch. -40°c wrecks tires and other stuff. Not applicable 20+ years and multiple heavy checks later.
WestJet | Simple Flying
Since commencing flights in 1996, WestJet has grown to become Canada’s second-largest airline with over 100 destinations in its network.WestJet
Man, I need to stop reading simpleflying.com They are terrible.
They really went to shit in the last year. But it's hard to find other sources that offer RSS feed. Would you have any recommendations?
Flight disruptions after man sets fire inside Milan Malpensa Terminal 1
In the morning of Wednesday, August 20th, passengers at Milan Malpensa’s Terminal 1 were forced to evacuate the building after a 28-year-old man from Mali destructed television screens with a hammer and set part of a check-in counter on fire by pouring flammable liquid on top of it.
Boeing Set To Sell 500 Jets To China In Massive Trade Deal
Boeing's shares have risen as a result of the reports.
Boeing to Sell 500 Jets To China In Major Trade Deal
The agreement could help Boeing regain market share lost to Airbus in recent years.Jake Hardiman (Simple Flying)
US | Military Preparing Attacks on Mexican Cartels
Secret orders target cartels as the new terrorists
Archived version: archive.is/20250820232627/kenk…
Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.
[Patch Notes] Content Update 0.3.0 — Path of Exile 2: The Third Edict
Early Access Patch Notes - Content Update 0.3.0 — Path of Exile 2: The Third Edict - Forum - Path of Exile
Path of Exile is a free online-only action RPG under development by Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand.Path of Exile
[Patch Notes] 3.26.0g Hotfix
3.26.0g Hotfix
- Fixed an instance crash occurring when Mercenaries killed monsters.
Patch Notes - 3.26.0g Hotfix - Forum - Path of Exile
Path of Exile is a free online-only action RPG under development by Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand.Path of Exile
[Announcement] Play Path of Exile 2 for Free on August 29 - September 1 PDT
To celebrate the launch of Path of Exile 2: The Third Edict next Friday, August 29, we're making the game free to play for the first time ever, for three days on all available platforms. This includes the standalone client, Steam, Epic, Xbox X|S and PlayStation 5.
You will get access to all the content currently available in Path of Exile 2, including the newly released Third Edict Content Update. There are no limits to character leveling, and all progress made during this period will be saved to your account. When the Free Weekend ends, you can continue playing by purchasing an Early Access key or by waiting until Path of Exile 2 becomes free to play at full release.
Start Time: August 29 1PM PDT
End Time: September 1 1PM PDT
How to Play
- Standalone PC: log in to your existing Path of Exile account or create a new one at pathofexile2.com, and download the client at pathofexile2.com/download.
- Steam: download the client from the store.
- Epic: download the client from the store.
- Xbox and PlayStation 5: download the client through their respective shops.
FAQ
Can I predownload the game client before the Free Weekend begins so that I can play right at launch?
No, predownloading requires an Early Access key. You will need to wait until the Free Weekend begins at 1PM on August 29 to download the game without the Early Access key.
What content is available during the Free Weekend?
Everything currently released in Path of Exile 2's Early Access, including the new Third Edict Content Update.
What happens when the Free Weekend ends?
You will not be able to access the game, but your account and all your progress will be saved. To continue playing on your account, you can purchase one of the Early Access Supporter Packs or simply wait until Path of Exile 2 is released out of Early Access.
What will happen to my characters after the Free Weekend if I don't purchase an Early Access key?
They will be patiently waiting on your account until Path of Exile 2 becomes free to play at full release. These characters will be in the Early Access league.
How to redeem a key?
Upon purchasing a Supporter Pack on PC that includes an Early Access key, that key will be automatically redeemed on the account the purchase was made. That's it, you don't have to do anything else! You're welcome to continue your journey in Path of Exile 2 right where you stopped!
If you're a Console player, make sure you're purchasing the Early Access Supporter Pack in the Xbox or PlayStation 5 store.
If you're unsure about your status, or want to view any of your keys, this information is available under my-account/early-access.
If you have purchased a key for one PC game client (Standalone, Steam, or Epic), but wish to play on another game client, you will be able to do so by claiming a key to unlock access to that client. These are available at my-account/early-access and can be redeemed on the relevant platform's store. Please note these keys only unlock the client in your library, they do not on their own provide early access to your account.
As an example, if you purchase a Supporter Pack through the Path of Exile website, you will be able to claim a key to unlock the client in your Steam Library.
If I buy a pack with extra keys, can I use these to access the game on Consoles?
No, extra keys from Early Access Supporter Packs can be activated only on PC.
Does the Free Weekend require PS Plus/Xbox Game Pass Core to play with others on consoles?
No.
Will I be able to purchase microtransactions during the Free Weekend?
Yes. Needless to say, all purchases made during the Free Weekend will stay on your account.
Is there a progression cap for the Free Weekend?
No.
Should I play Path of Exile 2 on a new account?
If you already have an existing Path of Exile 1 account that you can access, you can use it to play Path of Exile 2.
Early Access Announcements - Play Path of Exile 2 for Free on August 29 - September 1 PDT - Forum - Path of Exile
Path of Exile is a free online-only action RPG under development by Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand.Path of Exile
[Announcement] Announcing Path of Exile 2: The Third Edict
We're excited to announce The Third Edict, our next major content update for Path of Exile 2! In this news post we've put together links to the announcements made during the livestream. We'll be updating this news post for your reference as the livestream progresses.
Check out some of the media coverage of The Third Edict below:
- pcgamer.com/games/rpg/lets-fix…
- pcgamer.com/games/rpg/path-of-…
- gamespot.com/articles/how-path…
- mein-mmo.de/path-of-exile-2-ve…
- pcgamesn.com/path-of-exile-2/t…
- buffed.de/Path-of-Exile-2-Spie…
- comicbook.com/gaming/news/path…
- rpgsite.net/news/18216-path-of…
- wccftech.com/path-of-exile-2-t…
- playcentral.de/path-of-exile-2…
- game8.co/games/Path-of-Exile-2…
- sportskeeda.com/mmo/path-exile…
- thenerdstash.com/path-of-exile…
- news.infoseek.co.jp/article/ga…
- criticalhits.com.br/games/path…
- gamewith.jp/gamedb/11200/artic…
- 4gamer.net/games/486/G048642/2…
- automaton-media.com/articles/n…
- pt.ign.com/path-of-exile-2/149…
[Patch Notes] 0.2.1d Patch Notes
0.2.1d Patch Notes
- Added support for the upcoming announcement and new Supporter Packs.
- Players can now revive each other in Endgame Maps outside of boss fights, at the cost of attempts/portals.
Early Access Patch Notes - 0.2.1d Patch Notes - Forum - Path of Exile
Path of Exile is a free online-only action RPG under development by Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand.Path of Exile
[Patch Notes] 3.26.0g Patch Notes
3.26.0g Patch Notes
- Added support for the upcoming announcement and new Supporter Packs.
- Helena now offers mass-identification of your inventory items in your hideout, for a reasonable price of course.
Patch Notes - 3.26.0g Patch Notes - Forum - Path of Exile
Path of Exile is a free online-only action RPG under development by Grinding Gear Games in New Zealand.Path of Exile
more than cheap enough to throw a year at it.
I've honestly never wanted anything you couldn't find on public trackers though, but was still worth the experience figuring it all out.
Why the time limit?
Definitely going to avoid it, tired of platforms thinking they deserve exclusivity.
Inside the Underground Trade of ‘Flipper Zero’ Tech to Break into Cars
The tech used here is the popular Flipper Zero, an ethical hacker’s swiss army knife, capable of all sorts of things such as WiFi attacks or emulating NFC tags. Now, 404 Media has found an underground trade where much shadier hackers sell extra software and patches for the Flipper Zero to unlock all manner of cars, including models popular in the U.S. The hackers say the tool can be used against Ford, Audi, Volkswagen, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, and several other brands, including sometimes dozens of specific vehicle models, with no easy fix from car manufacturers.
Inside the Underground Trade of ‘Flipper Zero’ Tech to Break into Cars
A man holds an orange and white device in his hand, about the size of his palm, with an antenna sticking out. He enters some commands with the built-in buttons, then walks over to a nearby car. At first, its doors are locked, and the man tugs on one of them unsuccessfully. He then pushes a button on the gadget in his hand, and the door now unlocks.The tech used here is the popular Flipper Zero, an ethical hacker’s swiss army knife, capable of all sorts of things such as WiFi attacks or emulating NFC tags. Now, 404 Media has found an underground trade where much shadier hackers sell extra software and patches for the Flipper Zero to unlock all manner of cars, including models popular in the U.S. The hackers say the tool can be used against Ford, Audi, Volkswagen, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, and several other brands, including sometimes dozens of specific vehicle models, with no easy fix from car manufacturers.
💡
Do you know anything else about people using the Flipper Zero to break into cars? I would love to hear from you. Using a non-work device, you can message me securely on Signal at joseph.404 or send me an email at joseph@404media.co.These tools are primarily sold for a fee, keeping their distribution somewhat limited to those willing to pay. But, there is the looming threat that this software may soon reach a wider audience of thieves. Straight Arrow News (SAN) previously covered the same tech in July, and the outlet said it successfully tested the tool on a vehicle. Now people are cracking the software, meaning it can be used for free. Discord servers with hundreds of members are seeing more people join, with current members trolling the newbies with fake patches and download links. If the tech gets out, it threatens to supercharge car thefts across the country, especially those part of the social media phenomenon known as Kia Boys in which young men, often in Milwaukee, steal and joyride Kia and Hyundai cars specifically because of the vehicles’ notoriously poor security. Apply that brazeness to all of the other car models the Flipper Zero patches can target, and members of the car hacking community expect thieves to start using the easy to source gadget.
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UpgradeInside the Underground Trade of ‘Flipper Zero’ Tech to Break into Cars
“Kia Boys will be Flipper Boys by 2026,” one person in the reverse engineering community said.Joseph Cox (404 Media)
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I use it at work to clone a customer's proximity card when I work in their building so they don't have to leave me theirs to get around. The one legitimate use I found.
I guess being able to trigger the customer service announcement without having to find a button in a store is nice.
Oh, absolutely. It's not something which should be encouraged, and against a well designed modern system it probably isn't possible (there must be some challenge-response type NFC systems on the market).
I'm just saying it isn't unambiguously "illegitimate"
there must be some challenge-response type NFC systems on the market
There are. Hotels use them for door key cards so they can't be cloned.
le·git·i·mate adjective /ləˈjidəmət/
1. conforming to the law or to rules."Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley
seems legit to me…
That's the definition of a legitimate use.
Cloning keycards temporarily with permission (until new ones are made.) Breaking into your own or a friend's car because the keys were left inside (until you get the keys back)
Cloning a TV remote just to lower the volume to a sane degree and turn it off (until they get a new TV, remote or find the old one).
Legitimate is a anything that you're allowed to do. It's a simple process to test legitimacy:
Did someone ask you if you can help?
If yes, did you tell them what you'd do?
If yes, did they agree?
And once you did whatever it was they agreed to, did you keep your ability to do the same thing in the aim of doing something they didn't consent to (once you cloned their car key, do you plan on stealing the car? Or once you cloned their remote, do you have an insatiable urge to fuck with them by abusing the remote?)
If you answer "yes" to all except the last one, the use is legitimate in 99.9% of cases.
The only reason this may be considered a non-legitimate use would be if you attached the exclusive economic right of making repairs or new keys to the OEM, which isn't how a sane world works.
And besides, tools like the Flipper truly are hacking tools. Today hacking has a bad rep, and the word used to mean more like hack something together.
Imagine Bob who is a DIY type of guy. His TV starts falling apart because the plastic casing broke. Bob takes some duct tape and glues the casing together. As the TV stand is also a bit wonky, he takes some screws as well just to be safe. He doesn't plan on keeping it for too long, just until he can find a fitting replacement that's not too expensive. Most likely, he's bound to keep it until the next Black Friday.
Bob just successfully hacked something up to keep his TV from falling apart.
That's the origin of the word "hacking". "To hack up" got shortened by attaching a new meaning to the verb, without bothering with the entire phrase, and making it relate only to electronic/digital hacking. So the TV example isn't hacking, but it is hacking up. It means "to make some temporary fix until a proper one isn't found".
Today, hacking has been conflated with exploiting and breaking digital locks, which is not what the original phrase meant.
Yes, which is why it's weird they were able to steal it, gol'dang time travelers. No I wasn't mistaken, time travelers. No I'm not bias because Warren Zevon rules, I said time travelers.
"Drop his donuts" means his dough circles fell off a table during the studio recording. You can hear him say "my donuts! Goddamn!" in the back of the track, it's hilarious.
Right at the 4:10 mark lmao
- YouTube
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.www.youtube.com
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"What changed?"
"We made them super easy to steal"
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Prentending to be hackerman is a legit usecase IMHO. They do seem like fun, but I personally can't justify the cost.
I would definitely play with one if I had one
It is true that this device can be used nefariously. But it's just a computer with a wide variety of very basic and common communication methods along with software to exploit them. There are many other computers like it that are just less popular. And to ban it is to ban said basic communication hardware like radio, WiFi, NFC, etc.
The solution is to mandate companies to provide a minimum level of security. Even giant companies with good reputations have giant security holes, like Apple or your bank, implementing mandatory SMS as 2FA. That shit should be illegal.
It is almost like their should be something written down somewhere. Like a guideline or rule or something...
Oh that is right, it is called a regulation requiring basic wireless security for extremely expensive consumer items.
Nope can't do that.
Won't someone think of the multi billion dollar corporations‽
Of course, this particular attack actually "works" with rolling codes (WILL desync your real keyfob), it requires the attacker to sniff one signal off your key (incl lock) and then they can spoof your key's rollover protocol (and any button, not just the one they sniffed) to reset the rolling code back to 0 and allowing them access. Iirc it's different from a standard replay attack in (definitely) that it can spoof other keys on the fob it hasn't read, and (I think) that while a trad replay attack requires the car not to hear the signal when recording I believe that doesn't matter with this attack.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to test it out since I'm not buying a serial locked flipper firmware from some guy who just got out of prison selling it on telegram.
If you literally never press the buttons, nor leave your keys alone with anyone else who could possibly push the buttons?
Then a guy with a $20 car unlock kit from Autozone can still get in. And so can a guy with a hammer, and a guy with a broken spark plug. Locks are suggestions, especially when you have windows.
And that's not even to mention people with actual SDRs that can repeat your key's signal and remote start your car, keep your fob in a faraday bag.
locksmith
OH you know what's up for sure then lmao.
Yeah tbh there's nothing a flipper can do that you can't do with a better tool, it just rolls a bunch of stuff into a digital swiss army knife of sorts. It's not something a real car thief would use, maybe someone would use it to break into your car and steal something but a car thief would have something purpose built, or just go low tech if they can. You can run marauder on it too with the wifi board though lol.
TBF most of these are failures and exploits on older devices.
Which are a dime a dozen across the entire industry. Security is rather difficult, especially when considering exploits and bugs.
Ofc many of these ARE the results of cut corners, though many are just a lack of security awareness or old devices with known exploits discovered long after manufacturing.
202w wrangler
Well, Jeep is not really a name for good innovation. They are stuck with a management that still thinks "mechanics" and sees electronics as a pure profit center, not as a gear in the system that has to be as reliable as the rest of it.
That doesn't require buying a special device, it was mostly crimes of convenience. I doubt the Flipper Zero will ever get that widespread.
I see this article more about reporting unfortunate news rather than boosting fear. The news seems to be "Car manufacturers don't take security seriously and people are exploiting it with a simple tool".
I'd rather hear about this now than wake up one day to see that my flipper is illegal because some politician watched a tiktok video.
I don't think it's merely "reporting unfortunate news"
It's about the flipper zero, not really about car theft per say and shitty, evil car security system where the dealer scams you as much as the thief for a key.
There's really no reason we can't use contactless smartcards for this, and that we can't program them ourselves with open source software.
The flipper zero itself is completely irrelevant about this. It's just a generic ISM band transceiver ... Only of note to the ignorant and technologically incompetent, but the journos have made this the centerpiece of the article.
This article convinced me to buy a flipper (I've been debating it for years). It's a super useful item that is absolutely going to get banned/hamstrung any day now for putting too much power into people's hands under the guise of "public safety".
I want it because it's so easy to use. I'm no hacker, but with a tool as convenient as this I'm sure I can piece some useful hacks together.
Although, ordering one before they reban it again may or may not be something to consider.
It's cool but not magic. If you're trying to fuck with something, you need to know what frequency it's on and what sort of signals do what. There is a bunch of preloaded stuff though, and a wide variety of tools like radio frequencies, nfc, Bluetooth, rfid, and infrared. So far the most useful thing I've done is turn the volume down on fox News on tvs in public areas.
Oh one thing I still have to try: some, maybe most handicap buttons for doors are actually radio frequency based and not hard wired, so if you can capture and replay the open signal, you could open a door without hitting the button and look totally jedi.
I hate it when they always add "ethical". First of all, when you say ethical you mean law-fearing, they don't really care about ethics and, secondly, "regular" hackers use it too, so it's just a hacker's swiss army knife...
Dude, do you want individual hacking to become illegal? Because people who are not hacking daily are prone to forgetting that some hackers don't actually act maliciously.
Also, yes, some hackers are ethical and do care. Not you, obviously. But some.
That's what you think is good about hacking? That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. That's what you get when you get your education from TV.
Hacking means "misusing/modifying crap to work how you want".
Ethical hacking is e.g. modifying devices you own to run software you want, like e.g. running homebrew software on a game console. It is finding and reporting security vulnerabilities so that companies can improve their security. It is modifying software or devices to e.g. removing privacy problems or tracking.
And ethical hacking and law-abiding hacking aren't the same either, since some ethical hacking activities might be illegal (e.g. violating restrictions on modifying devices) and some legal hacking activities might not be ethical (e.g. using legal hacking to dox people).
And ethical hacking and law-abiding hacking aren't the same either
I prefer saying 'grey hat' instead of 'ethical hacker' because ethical hacker is now used to mean 'pentester', 'red teamer' and all the other cybersecurity stuff, or so it seems to me.
that was the entire meaning of my comment, I clearly didn't make it clear enough.
panda_abyss
in reply to return2ozma • • •I moved in to a house with a garage and my in laws are constantly trying to give us crap to fill it up.
I don’t even know where they’re getting this stuff, they just show up and are like “oh, we’re getting rid of this dresser, we thought you’d like it” or “or, I bought this antique trunk at a yard sale, can you hold on to it”.
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tyler
in reply to panda_abyss • • •like this
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The Velour Fog
in reply to panda_abyss • • •like this
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baggachipz
in reply to panda_abyss • • •giantpaper likes this.
bbbbbbbbbbb
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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HootinNHollerin
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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aword
in reply to HootinNHollerin • • •Yup. Find me a car that respects my privacy and won't advertise to me and I'm in.
Edit to add: and no fuucking subscriptions to enable things the car can already do but disabled in software.
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paraphrand
in reply to aword • • •like this
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aword
in reply to paraphrand • • •like this
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in reply to aword • • •like this
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blargh513
in reply to paraphrand • • •I do not understand people who use their garage to store useless crap and leave their car outside. The car is more valuable than the crap.
Dump all that useless junk into a dumpster. Get a bike shed, put the mower in it too.
The garage is for cars, not bikes, mowers or trash nobody cares about.
Looking at you California.
bluGill
in reply to blargh513 • • •Only if you spend way too much money on a depreciating asset that won't be that valuable for long. For that matter storing inside or outside makes zero difference to the value. The stuff in my garage is more valuable than my car (my car is 26 years old so this is a much lower bar than most people), is more sensitive to weather than my cars, and I enjoy it more than cars.
I don't get this obsession people have with depreciating assets like cars. They brag about how great they are, take good care of it, and then 3 years latter trade in that piece of junk...
Besides, the worst weather for cars is bright sun, and most cars are parked outside in a parking lot (at work) when it is sunny, and only put in the garage when it is dark.
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acosmichippo
in reply to aword • • •my ford EV has no subscriptions (other than the usual sirius XM and nav subs that all cars have). There is data collection but you are able to opt out.
Also this is more of an issue with new cars in general, not a reason to choose a new ICE vehicle over a new EV.
Captain Aggravated
in reply to acosmichippo • • •acosmichippo
in reply to Captain Aggravated • • •Captain Aggravated
in reply to acosmichippo • • •I reckon it soon shall be, the way such things are trending.
The point you're trying to make is, if I willingly carry around a battery powered security hole in my pocket all the time, why should I be concerned about another one installed in my vehicle?
Well, should I decide I wish to travel without being monitored, I can leave my phone behind and still travel rapidly.
My phone does not have access to my vehicle's CAN bus; my phone cannot disable the vehicle from afar should it detect I performed my own repairs or that I am not christian or that my skin is browner than the dictator will tolerate or whatever else the police will decide to murder me for.
WhyJiffie
in reply to acosmichippo • • •acosmichippo
in reply to HootinNHollerin • • •with the used EV tax credit there are good options at ~20k.
edit: why downvotes? the used EV market is bigger every year and if the price is under $25k you get a ~$4k credit.
rbesfe
in reply to acosmichippo • • •artyom
in reply to HootinNHollerin • • •atticus88th
in reply to artyom • • •IllNess
in reply to atticus88th • • •Privacy matters.
The government and corporations abused this information by stopping protestors getting to their destination.
Protestors can atleast use faraday bags or just leave their phones at home. Now they can't even get to important events.
Now this information is being used by ICE to arrest immigrants.
Considering how conservative views and Nazis are coming back in to fashion, this is very scary for anyone not white and male.
ramenshaman
in reply to IllNess • • •acosmichippo
in reply to IllNess • • •blargh513
in reply to IllNess • • •IllNess
in reply to blargh513 • • •whosepoopisonmybutt
in reply to atticus88th • • •HiTekRedNek
in reply to whosepoopisonmybutt • • •Did you know that before cellular phones were a thing, the phone company regularly sent out books with everyone's name, phone number, and sometimes even their address in them?
You could even find such a book in public in these little things called "Phone booths".
bluGill
in reply to HiTekRedNek • • •whosepoopisonmybutt
in reply to HiTekRedNek • • •HiTekRedNek
in reply to whosepoopisonmybutt • • •You've missed the point.
The point is the useful trivia I just told you.
whosepoopisonmybutt
in reply to HiTekRedNek • • •whosepoopisonmybutt
in reply to HiTekRedNek • • •HiTekRedNek
in reply to whosepoopisonmybutt • • •HootinNHollerin
in reply to artyom • • •artyom
in reply to HootinNHollerin • • •Vakbrain
in reply to HootinNHollerin • • •As opposed to what your comment implies, the drivetrain (EV or ICE) has nothing to do with cars spying on you. You should not blame the technology itself because shady car companies spying on your internet connected car. Most of them are well known ICE car brands that do the spying (GM, Volkswagen for instance)
Yes, most new ICE cars are Internet connected now, not just EVs.
Blame those greedy corporations, not the technology.
acosmichippo
in reply to Vakbrain • • •atrielienz
in reply to acosmichippo • • •entropicdrift
in reply to atrielienz • • •atrielienz
in reply to entropicdrift • • •bluGill
in reply to atrielienz • • •Lka1988
in reply to bluGill • • •bluGill
in reply to Lka1988 • • •Lka1988
in reply to bluGill • • •No need - I have two 46 year-old vehicles: a 1980 Honda XR500 motorcycle from 08/79, and a 1980 Mercedes 240D from 12/79. The motorcycle is currently torn apart in the garage, undergoing a full restoration. Believe me dude, I know aaaaaaall about the frustrations of long-discontinued parts 😂😂
Man I feel that so hard with the Mercedes. Poor thing has cancer and I'm not sure if it's possible to save in its current condition. It's got almost half a million miles, but goddamn it drives so, so nice... I think it needs a clutch though. Luckily, since W123 cars are sought-after classics at this point, there are still options, but it's gonna be a hell of a process if I decide to attempt a restoration. My dad (with help from me and my siblings, friends, and neighbors) somehow managed to save a pretty rusty 1963 VW Beetle almost 20 years ago, was about a 5 year process. That car recently went to a collector... I'm mad about it, but only in the "goddammit I wanted to inherit it" kinda way 😅
atrielienz
in reply to bluGill • • •The average car in the US is 12 years old. That average is higher in other countries. But regardless, that's not because cars are unfixable. It's because most people opt to buy a new or newer car when they feel like the vehicle they currently own is more expensive to fix than they'd like and a lot of that has nothing to do with the longevity of the vehicle and everything to do with how vehicle purchase can be financed vs how car repair can be financed.
It also has a lot to do with people who don't or won't fix things before they snowball, and or become astronomically expensive problems. Taking care of a vehicle is about doing regular maintenance (which most people don't do), and getting at the very least an annual inspection (which most people also don't do unless they're forced to).
I won't be buying a new car ever. I can say that with absolute certainty. I have rehabbed my current car in just about every way I can. Machined/honed block, new valves, new piston/lan rings, new head gasket, new water pump, new thermostat housing, new valve cover, new injectors, rebuilt transmission with new clutch, all new hoses, all new gaskets, new HP fuel pump. I will continue to do so because to me it's worth it. Doner cars are readily available, but I probably won't need one specifically because my car is considered and enthusiast car. I have walked into a dealer and ordered parts and my car is 15 years old. I also owned a 20 year old version of this car with the same ability to order parts directly from the dealer.
Most people aren't buying used unless they have no choice. They will continue to buy new cars regardless of the controversy surrounding them.
I think it's a bit disingenuous assume that older cars will not be available. Especially considering that the EV's that are new right now aren't going to survive 25 years without costly repairs of their own. I'd salvage an engine from an older car. I wouldn't salvage a battery pack from an older car.
youmaynotknow
in reply to Vakbrain • • •Cethin
in reply to HootinNHollerin • • •icystar
in reply to Cethin • • •Bullshit.
Devmapall
in reply to return2ozma • • •My parents have a garage full of junk. It used to drive me crazy. We have strong storms where we live and a tree/branches falling are a real possibility of damaging their cars. Plus hail storms sometimes.
It's mainly my moms stuff. Some of it is worth money but it's not being sold or anything.
If they used the garage as something other than storage it would be one thing. Instead it's full of stuff for no real reason.
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Snot Flickerman
in reply to Devmapall • • •My mother refuses to admit she's a hoarder, and none of her things are really valuable. She's clean, it's not like she lives in filth, but she lives in 4000 square feet (main floor + basement) and has three full wall closets plus a room in the basement all filled with every item of clothing she has ever owned. I can barely fill a small closet with all my clothing. Her closets aren't small, either. They are about 15 feet wide, each. So three 15 feet wide closets absolutely crammed with shit, and each one of them has storage space broken into three sections, about three feet tall each above each closet. Everything is crammed full. None of it is ever pulled out to be used for anything. She has all these things from her family she has kept for "memories" but 1. they mean nothing to me because I hate my extended family and 2. I won't be able to afford to store them and won't have reason to when she's gone.
I don't fucking get it, it's a massive house, and it's just stuffed to the fucking brim with crap crap crap!
paraphrand
in reply to Snot Flickerman • • •There are lots of factors that lead to people of her generation ending up like this. It’s really common.
One factor for some people, is not wanting to face how wasteful we are. It’s putting off the reality that it’s all landfill. Just one of many reasons. And I think it might be common with people who are not exactly hoarders, but also manage to hold on to so much.
Sure, they could donate it… but the rationalization could spin up again knowing that’s just another cope, because most of it will go from the donation place to the landfill.
GreyEyedGhost
in reply to paraphrand • • •like this
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paraphrand
in reply to return2ozma • • •officermike
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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katy ✨
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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paraphrand
in reply to katy ✨ • • •There can be multiple factors.
People with garages big enough for a nice car that also have it stuffed with things probally have money too. Right?
HiTekRedNek
in reply to paraphrand • • •I have a garage that could hold 4 cars if you parked 2 rows of them....
My single income household of 3 is just barely above the national poverty level.
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icystar
in reply to paraphrand • • •What the fuck? I can tell you don't have a garage, because for 99% of them size isn't going to impact the 'niceness' of the car you can have in it.
Challenge: People who lived in major cities understanding that there's more to life than what goes on in them.
Level: Impossible.
🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮
in reply to return2ozma • • •acosmichippo
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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frongt
in reply to acosmichippo • • •like this
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GreyEyedGhost
in reply to frongt • • •like this
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redknight942
in reply to GreyEyedGhost • • •like this
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sem
in reply to redknight942 • • •acosmichippo
in reply to frongt • • •like this
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Lka1988
in reply to return2ozma • • •How about talking to the landlords who refuse to install EV chargers? Or maybe talk to manufacturers who won't sell a basic EV that isn't overpriced?
This is just "Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong!" again.
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shalafi
in reply to Lka1988 • • •mojofrododojo
in reply to shalafi • • •fast charging requires a larger service connection than a wall outlet. you can slow charge from a normal wall outlet, but it will take ages to fully charge a modest battery.
generally people have it installed by an electrician, running a new conduit from the circuit breaker.
Usernameblankface
in reply to mojofrododojo • • •mojofrododojo
in reply to Usernameblankface • • •...this obviously depends on how far your commute is, and how large the battery is.
supercarblondie.com/tesla-cybe…
How long it takes to charge Cybertruck with a regular outlet
Alessandro Renesis (Supercar Blondie)shalafi
in reply to mojofrododojo • • •mojofrododojo
in reply to shalafi • • •like this
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blargh513
in reply to shalafi • • •In the us, home chargers will typically run on 240 volts, similar to a dryer or electric stove.
The amperage can be as low as 16 amps (not common) and up to 40 amps. There are higher amperage chargers, but they're not super common. Most homes dont have that much capacity provisioned and adding it to the breaker box means new circuits and often the power company has to provide a higher capacity meter. It gets expensive.
Since volts x amps = watts, a 240 volt charger that operates at 40 amps will charge at 9600 watts or 9.6 kilowatts (maximum).
You can charge using a standard 120v outlet, most are rated for 15 amps. However, you will get 120v x 15a = 1800 watts or 1.8 kilowatts (maximum).
spongebue
in reply to blargh513 • • •spongebue
in reply to shalafi • • •How much do you drive in a year? What kind of car are you looking at?
For the average driver, a 120V (normal) outlet on a smaller car is actually perfectly fine most of the time. If you think you might get a bigger car, or multiple EVs, you may want to look into a level 2 setup. And while you're at it, use thicker wires so you can run more power through it. But don't feel like you have to go overboard. I think the sweet "buy once, cry once, hard to come up with a situation where this isn't enough" number is a 50 amp 240V circuit running a 40A charge cord (always charge at 80% of your circuit rating, max).
But if your panel can't take it or you want to do it cheaper or whatever, a 20A 240V circuit is on the lower end of the level 2 spectrum and it can still do a lot... Like, more than double that "average driver" amount for level 1. And here's the fun part: everyone is so afraid of 240V and think it takes special wiring or whatever. It really doesn't. I've got a 240V air compressor outlet on a 20A circuit, just like what I suggested a minute ago. It uses the exact same wiring as the 120V next to it. The only difference? It's connected to two "opposing" hots with a double breaker (not terribly more expensive) rather than a single hot on a single breaker plus a neutral as you'd see on 120V. All you need to do is wrap the white wire (usually neutral) with a colored (not green, that's ground) electrical tape to indicate that it carries current. Do it on both sides. Easy peasy, up to code, and uses really affordable wiring.
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spongebue
in reply to shalafi • • •Also, volts and amps are apples and oranges. Home electric circuits mostly run on 120 volts, but some bigger things like stoves and central air run on 240 volts instead. Amperage is the other piece of the puzzle. Wire sizing is largely based on how many amps the circuit can carry. Multiply the two together, and you get watts. Divide that number by 1000, and you get kilowatts.
My car's battery has a capacity of 65 kilowatt-hours, meaning it can run 65 kilowatts for an hour, 1 kilowatt for 65 hours, 13 kilowatts for 5 hours... You get the idea. Same idea goes for charging. My 240V 40A charging setup (which runs on a 50A breaker) can give almost 10 kilowatts of power, meaning my battery will be charged 0-100 in about 6.5 hours. A regular outlet gives about a kilowatt and can do it in about 65 hours. But before you think that's useless, remember that you can easily plug in daily and if you only use a fraction of your battery each day, it's no big deal at all!
bluGill
in reply to shalafi • • •Zen_Shinobi
in reply to shalafi • • •like this
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shalafi
in reply to Zen_Shinobi • • •Zen_Shinobi
in reply to shalafi • • •Lka1988
in reply to shalafi • • •bountygiver [any]
in reply to Lka1988 • • •Lka1988
in reply to bountygiver [any] • • •icystar
in reply to Lka1988 • • •This is huge. Keep in mind, every additional bullshit "feature" in your car will end up costing you more than it costs the business.
This is why we've been conditioned to accept so much superfluous bullshit as possible.
artyom
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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calmluck9349
in reply to return2ozma • • •surewhynotlem
in reply to calmluck9349 • • •like this
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icystar
in reply to surewhynotlem • • •Nothing really wrong with florida.
I say this, because I've come across genuine morons who live in Texas and have the nerve to scoff at florida while ignoring their shithole state and the one directly to the east of it.
sem
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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Skysurfer
in reply to sem • • •spongebue
in reply to Skysurfer • • •I think that number is a bit off. Yes, there is overhead when charging a car to run its battery management system, heat losses in the wiring, etc. But it's not 20-30% of the ~kilowatt of power you'd run through level 1. A quick search says that 20% loss is at the higher end for level 1 (probably 15% on the lower end) but even level 2 has about a 10% loss.
The bigger issue is that level 1 just doesn't have nearly as much power as level 2. Most cars charge at level 1 at 8-16 amps. Most level 2 setups charge at a few times that, plus the voltage is doubled so the total power ends up being about 10x as much. But that's not to say everyone needs that power either. Honestly, for the average driver it's quite easy to make level 1 work.
ulterno
in reply to spongebue • • •No, that number corresponds to the WiFi you need to connect it to, to send all the telemetry and the LLM that will be running on some server in the US, picking data out of your telemetry and deciding which company to sell it to, while your car is powered.
spongebue
in reply to ulterno • • •ulterno
in reply to spongebue • • •Yes. Satire.
I am poking at the current trend of evolution of products.
Of course, cars are not wasting so much of energy on those things just by being turned on... Yet.
spongebue
in reply to ulterno • • •Yeah... So for those of us more or less forced into a car-dependent city plan, EVs are pretty awesome and much better for the climate than an ICE car. But they also take a different mindset than the gas-powered cars we've spent decades living with.
Muddying the waters with irrelevant comments like that, things not specific to EVs at all, doesn't help any. Yes, it happens, and yes, it's creepy. I even posted on the old site about how to disable it on my car (same username, feel free to check my posts). But when you add in stupid stuff like that, you're not helping anything.
Jesus
in reply to return2ozma • • •M0oP0o
in reply to return2ozma • • •People can't afford a new car, let alone an EV, let alone a carport or car hole.
This is just tone deaf poor blaming.
oh_
in reply to return2ozma • • •like this
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ulterno
in reply to oh_ • • •"We mean electric cars, you commie! The next time you talk about that thing, you are going out that window."
\s
thatKamGuy
in reply to oh_ • • •Chicken and egg situation, Americans drive because that’s how their cities and suburbs are laid out (excluding NYC, for the most part).
They don’t rely on alternatives because they are slow, inconvenient or non-existent; alternatives can’t be built up as the costs can’t be justified based on existing patronage levels.
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_stranger_
in reply to thatKamGuy • • •like this
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bluGill
in reply to _stranger_ • • •like this
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thatKamGuy
in reply to _stranger_ • • •BussyCat
in reply to oh_ • • •like this
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bluGill
in reply to BussyCat • • •BussyCat
in reply to bluGill • • •bluGill
in reply to BussyCat • • •Most suburbs a store is not that far. you will often drive more than that for a store you like but something is closer.
american suburb covers a lot of variation. If you have a horse as some of the least dense support that is different from ones where you get a postage stamp lot. Streetcar suburbs designed before cars are ess dense than the new developments they are putting is around me today.
Lka1988
in reply to BussyCat • • •I live in the suburbs. The older kids can bike to the local Walmart (save it) as there is a pedestrian tunnel that crosses under the main road, providing a complete pedestrian/bike path from one end of the town to the other.
I'd prefer if we had more of those, but it's something.
BussyCat
in reply to Lka1988 • • •Lka1988
in reply to BussyCat • • •SoftestSapphic
in reply to BussyCat • • •It's really isn't difficult
Our government just won't spend the money to do it
BussyCat
in reply to SoftestSapphic • • •If you want useful public transit then it needs to connect population centers where people are. People are lazy and don’t want to walk more than 1/2 mile to a bus stop so if you have a population density of 1000/ sq mi that means any one bus stop is only going to be able to provide adequate coverage to 250 people. With so few people per stop it needs to make a lot of stops to be useful which then makes it slow which further lowers use. At that density it also doesn’t make logical sense to have designated bus lanes so they are stuck going slow in traffic as well. So now you have an expensive system that nobody uses because it sucks
If you have higher density then you can justify more lines which makes them actually useful and can add things like light rails which really make a difference
Bike transit is usually easier in those lower density areas but due to the low density getting between places is usually a bit further away so there are usually higher speed limit roads that aren’t as good for cyclists so more expensive barriers need to be constructed or they have to follow less direct paths which causes cycling to be slow
corsicanguppy
in reply to BussyCat • • •Infrastructure alone to Bungalow jungle is never cost-effective: as Detroit learned, it never pays for itself with property tax.
I say we jack the property tax on low-dense residential to properly reflect a 20-year amortization and all the operating expenses of the infrastructure used, all the way back to City Hall, so that it does pay for itself (and the farther out, the more expensive to fix, the more expensive the tax).
At the same time, the city will
- wreck a park (wait for it)
- put up 40 storeys of mixed use
- offer to buy the shitty bungalows around the building, with an option to buy into ready condo space
- same for businesses, because #mixed-use
- use adjacent bungalow space for central square. Start with transit station underneath
- build 7 more towers
- offer same buy-up to adjacent bungalows
- surround with greenspace and one really ineffective laneway to connect garages under building with roadway out there
- begin offering more incentives for bungalow people to give up their home for agri space and move into mixed-use
- repeat until city is transformed to efficient walkable oases linked by transit
People think they can't do apartments, but I'm sure a spacious 1200sqft place planned with an eye to sight-lines isn't what they're thinking. We love our (smaller) apartment near the mixed-use block that sprung up , and everything we need is within that block. From daycares and pet stores to restaurants and coffee-shops and take-out, and gyms (plural) and insurers and a market and a chemist and an insurer and a physio... it's endless, and they're still building out more commercial space.
But you have to build the new space, properly configured with GOOD (rail) transit, before you can get people out of their cars.
icystar
in reply to oh_ • • •Have you seen America? It's huge.
There's also way more to America than the metropolitan cities you've been conditioned to prioritize.
oh_
in reply to icystar • • •etherphon
in reply to return2ozma • • •muusemuuse
in reply to return2ozma • • •roofuskit
in reply to return2ozma • • •3abas
in reply to roofuskit • • •Because they keep buying shit they don't need and hording it in the garage, while their car sits outside in the driveway exposed to the elements.
Hyperinflation and incoming recession aside, Americans have been using their garages for junk storage for many decades.
icystar
in reply to 3abas • • •Don't get me wrong, most of them spend money like morons while complaining they need more.
However, electric vehicles are still just too expensive of an investment to justify to the average American.
This could probably be fixed if the leeches maximizing profit off of them made less profit, but why would they do that unless they're forced to?
icystar
in reply to return2ozma • • •