If 4chan continues to ignore Ofcom, the forum could be blocked in the UK. And 4chan could face even bigger fines totaling about $23 million or 10 percent of 4chan’s worldwide turnover, whichever is higher. 4chan also faces potential arrest and/or "imprisonment for a term of up to two years," the lawsuit said.
Legislative and regulatory changes or actions at the state, federal, or international level may adversely affect the use, transfer, exchange, and value of virtual currency.
That means they agree their business can be affected by international regulations.
I know, its hard to believe your eyes, but it does say they can be adversely affected by international legislation and regulations if they want to do business there.
They could always opt to use a US-based payment processor that doesn't deal with international payments.
It specifically talks about the value of crypto currency, which can be affected by any number of external events. I'm going to assume you're simply trolling now.
Your company’s policies, procedures, and activities which relate to the Services, in each case to the extent reasonably necessary for Coinbase to comply with any applicable laws, rules, and regulations (including money laundering statutes, regulations and conventions of the United States or other jurisdictions), or the guidance or direction of, or request from, any regulatory authority or financial institution.
Not you again... genuinely convinced this user is a bot. He made this same argument a month ago on a now deleted post almost verbatim. I disputed his claims with evidence and they continuously moved the goalpost through the entire argument. either braindead or just software please ignore.
Not who you replied to, but: there is no legal, ethical, or moral, requirement for a business of one country to comply with the laws of another. If there was, all business would be beholden to the most overbearing government on any one subject. And just to specifically state it before it’s brought up, being tied into the international banking system doesn’t change that; if a state doesn’t want its citizenry doing business with a particular entity, it’s on them to stop it on their side or come to an agreement with the other’s government. Which does happen, especially with the conglomerate hegemony of components of the international banking system, but naturally that means that the only time any entity of a state is forced to comply with the laws of another is when their home-state demands it, which ultimately isn’t the laws of the other.
4Chan doesn’t have their own personal payment processor that they’re responsible for. They’re tied into processors like stripe and accept all payments that make it to them on the US side. So long as it is legal, which is typically the only way that a payment actually goes through as processors refuse the obviously illegal cases like encompassing embargoes. If the UK doesn’t want payments going to 4chan through a processor that operates in their country, it’s on them to stop the payment processor on their end.
The UK knows this, the fines are just one step towards them petitioning processors.
Imagine for a moment that 4chan is a business that sells alcoholic beverages in the US. Now imagine the UK has instituted prohibition and banned the consumption of alcohol.
now, some enterprising individuals have taken it upon themselves to buy, smuggle, and then sell those beverages inside the UK.
Clearly, the government has intended to ban the consumption of alcohol, not the sale of it.
Now the UK government is trying to shackle hefty fines against an American company for having the "audacity" of selling a product to an individual within the confines of the US.
again, the UK banned the consumption of alcohol, not the sale of. 4Chan isn't forcing UK citizens to drink the alcohol. They are simply selling the product, within their country of origin, to individuals who want to purchase it.
now, do you still think the UK government has a right to fine 4chan or do you think maybe the UK government should elaborate on their prohibition regulations to ensure their citizens are properly "protected"?
So in your scenario here, some enterprising individuals start off by smuggling alcohol into the UK. By definition according to Merriam-Webster, smuggling is: "to import or export secretly contrary to the law and especially without paying duties imposed by law".
According to UK laws, this has the following consequences:
Penalties for Drug Smuggling The legal consequences of drug smuggling in the United Kingdom are robust and intricate. These penalties are designed to deter and punish those involved in the illicit trade of controlled substances, and they vary significantly depending on the nature and scale of the offense.
Prison Sentences Convictions for drug smuggling can result in substantial prison sentences. The duration of imprisonment varies based on factors such as the type and quantity of drugs involved, the defendant’s role in the operation, and any previous criminal history. For Class A drugs like heroin or cocaine, sentences can range from several years to life imprisonment. The courts take a particularly stern stance on those involved in large-scale drug trafficking operations, often imposing the harshest sentences.
Fines In addition to imprisonment, courts may impose hefty fines on individuals convicted of drug smuggling. These financial penalties are meant to act as both a punishment and a deterrent. Fines can be substantial and are typically proportional to the severity of the offense and the defendant’s financial means.
Confiscation Orders The UK’s legal system has mechanisms to prevent criminals from profiting from their drug smuggling activities. Courts can issue confiscation orders requiring the defendant to surrender any assets or wealth acquired through drug smuggling. This means that criminals face prison time and fines and risk losing ill-gotten gains.
Forfeiture of Assets In cases where assets such as vehicles, boats, properties, or other possessions were used to commission drug smuggling offenses, law enforcement agencies can seize these assets through forfeiture proceedings. This serves as a punishment for the offender and a means to disrupt criminal enterprises.
Travel Restrictions Convictions related to drug smuggling can result in travel restrictions imposed on the individual. These restrictions may include bans on leaving the country to prevent the convicted person from continuing their criminal activities abroad. Such measures are implemented to ensure that those involved in drug smuggling cannot easily evade justice by fleeing the country.
Lets move to the selling of the illegally imported alcohol:
You can be stopped, fined or arrested by police if you’re under 18 and drinking alcohol in public.
If you’re under 18, it’s against the law: - for someone to sell you alcohol - to buy or try to buy alcohol - for an adult to buy or try to buy alcohol for you - to drink alcohol in licensed premises (such as a pub or restaurant)
However, if you’re 16 or 17 and accompanied by an adult, you can drink (but not buy) beer, wine or cider with a meal.
If you’re 16 or under, you may be able to go to a pub (or premises primarily used to sell alcohol) if you’re accompanied by an adult. However, this isn’t always the case. It can also depend on the specific conditions for that premises.
It’s illegal to give alcohol to children under 5.
For the sake of your argument, we'll remove the law that says its illegal to sell alcohol to children, I guess? Regardless, it might be some enterprising individuals that are selling it, but they are selling the alcohol in the UK. In UK currency, To UK residents. In the UK. We are getting into possibly exchanging UK currency for US currency, which is a whole new can of worms, but we can save that for later.
Now to your question:
now, do you still think the UK government has a right to fine 4chan or do you think maybe the UK government should elaborate on their prohibition regulations to ensure their citizens are properly “protected”?
Easy answer is yes. They should be fined for smuggling alcohol into the UK, which is what the current law calls for.
Now hypothetical for you.
Imagine for a moment that the UK has banned looking at alcohol if you are under 18. Doesn't matter if you look at alcohol if you are over the age of 18, but you just can't legally look at alcohol if you are under 18.
Now someone comes along named 4chan and builds a giant building in the UK that has a ton of alcohol inside of it. There isn't anything outside of the building. Its only inside where the alcohol is. They don't have protections in place that prevent anyone under 18 from going inside the building. Anyone can come in and look. You can be 5 years old, or 100 years old. As a matter of fact, tons of people from all over the UK come and visit this building daily, even children.
Now the UK government comes along and says, "Hey 4chan, you need to verify that anyone that goes into your building is at least 18 years old, because if someone under 18 looks at the alcohol in there, thats against the law."
4chan ignores the UK and continues letting anyone inside, not verifying anyone's age. Not only that, but they're actually selling alcohol to children in there, and letting children make their own alcohol as well.
Should the UK be allowed to fine/arrest 4chan until they meet the demands?
now, do you still think the UK government has a right to fine 4chan or do you think maybe the UK government should elaborate on their prohibition regulations to ensure their citizens are properly “protected”?
I went ahead and edited it for you so it says enterprising individuals.... which you end up asking about 4chan anyways
now, some enterprising individuals have taken it upon themselves to buy, smuggle, and then sell those beverages inside the UK
Wouldn't it be more akin to those individuals putting the alcohol into 4chan's trucks that are taking other stuff to the UK? (and worse with 4chan's knowledge)
In that case do you think it's unreasonable that the uk government imposes penalties for 4chan refusing to remove the alcohol that they know is there from the trucks.
And then if 4chan then refuses to pay said penalties start to not allow them to bring any trucks into the uk at all?
the "trucks" in your example are the users computers/phones.
the highways are the Internet, which is owned and maintained by the UK government after their "gate".
the alcohol is the content.
4chans trucks deliver to the UKs "gate" and the UK user does the rest from there on the UK highways.
if the UK doesn't want the alcohol in their country, they need to stop their citizens from purchasing it and block it from entering their country at their "gate".
this is what any reasonable country would do. they (UK) already do it for actual physical products like potassium bromate, azodicarbonamide, and certain artificial food dyes like Yellow 5 and Yellow 6.
Are they going to sue or fine the companies that manufacture those products? no. They're going to ban the products that use them and then go after the individuals that smuggle them in.
the "trucks" in your example are the users computers/phones.
No it's the packets being sent from the 4chan server.
Stopping every single packet (or in the real world truck) to check it isn't feasible, do that and you get 20 mile queues up the m20 (and the digital version of that). Plus any government trying to so it like that would get accused of tax payers money due to the insane amount of resources that would be needed.
Placing the responsibility on the company makes sense, so does issuing penalties for non compliance. The company that has a fine issued against them can of course ignore it if they're set up outside the country that issues the fine. But they should then expect the country issuing the fine to escalate. If they don't pay and don't comply they can expect to have any assets in the uk seized and eventually get blocked from operating entirely. And probably have any executives arrested of they enter the country. Ofcom can't just jump to getting a court order though because they need to be fair and give 4chan a chance to comply if they want to.
The problem with the online safety act is that it exists at all, and that they expect people to use third party authentication services many of which are operating from countries with poor data protection regulations. That said, as iit does exist the logic of saying that companies are the ones responsible for what people access from their servers does make sense.
It's a process. They need to issue the fine first to give them a chance to pay rather than jumping to blocking it. If they continue to refuse to pay that's where it'll go.
I guess thats not a threat? Not sure what else youd classify that as. "If you step on our turf you're going to be jailed" is just peaceful language haha
You have to obey the law of whatever country you are currently occupying, even if the rule is bad shit crazy, actually especially if the rule is bat shit crazy. There are plenty of people who have done nothing wrong who would be arrested if they step foot in China, but that doesn't really bother anyone because they don't step foot in China.
Also it would be interesting to see what they would even be charged with, since offcom don't really have authority to issue arrest warrants. Ofcom barely have the authority to enforce UK law in the UK. Otherwise the likes of GB news wouldn't exist.
You have to obey the law of whatever country you are currently occupying.
They're not "occupying" or even operating here. all the servers have been in Texas since 2008. The British gov are attempting to legislate feature implementations for companies that aren't operating in britain. it's ridiculous.
Apparently they are operating in the UK though apparently they are selling some kind of pro service, so they are operating in the UK. To be clear it's a stupid law, but it is the law.
Well, they are operating in britain, their website is accessible in britain and as such the UK can decide whether the website is accessible or not. The uk can't really punish them other than blocking their site if they don't comply, though.
I agree the law is stupid but them not having servers in britain is mostly irrelevant.
It's an interesting idea that countries could only fine websites that operate in said country. Could get away with a lot by finding a permissive country to do what would otherwise be illegal and worth of fines.
"Selling user's private information illegally? Buddy, Tuvalo don't care"
Then get your asses in order. If you have doubts, the French across ye pond taught pretty well how to use guillotines to achieve it. Didn't you guys also have a mask guy do the same?
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
The thing is, an indeterminable amount of users (and admins!) are feds, so despite giving the appearance of lawlessness, it’s actually fully compliant!
Imagine running a website for 20 years, changing absolutely nothing, and one day you're being targeted because someone else on the other side of the planet changed something at their end.
“Block us then. We’re not paying your fines and you’ll never arrest us as we’ll never step foot in your country. Get fucked.” That’s about the response I’d have I think… attached with a photo of tubgirl or something for the classic lawls.
Yeah, and a county could say "you can't do business in our county anymore" and block them
A country can ban dildos, but they don't get to tell a foreign factory they can't make dildos. If an importer orders dildos anyways, that's between the importer and customs. Which in this case the importer is the ISP
Otherwise the internet as we know it is very much over, and what we have instead is a mesh of country-nets.
which, TBH, doesn't seem so bad to me. as an european, i'm personally sick of all the sick (as in, unwell) culture from america swapping over via the internet and poisoning people's minds.
i mean, all the culture war is literally instigated by american capitalists to disrupt society and to disrupt the people's coherence, to make them weaker and therefore easier to exploit.
If it wasn't for continuous exposure to american influence, europe would long have drastic left-wing political reforms, i guess.
Oh yes, because it's not like Nigel Farage, Victor Orban and a bunch of other populists didn't make use of US companies and advisors (and russian funds...) on how to best fracture societies to their end. Clearly nuking the internet would put an end to that, and all would be well.
My server is in the corned of my bedroom. How the hell can I be operating in China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Brazil, Norway, or The UK if my bedroom is in none of those countries?
Yes. You can impose as much laws as you can enforce them. Don't want your citizens to buy anything from me, stop shipments at your border. Want to stop payments, talk to your banks. Want to stop access to my servers, block them at your routers.
Why the fuck should I enforce your rules for you? You made them, you figure out how you will make them work.
GDPR can only be enforced if the business wants to continue to do business in Europe. There are lots of non-European businesses that do not enforce GDPR rules but they can't sell products or services in Europe.
But of course 4chan doesn't sell any products or services anywhere, it's not a business, so it's a bit hard to see exactly how this could be enforced.
More likely than dining then for calls I don’t want to get they they facilitate by selling my data. Linda of like the scale car warrantee mail you get because the DMV sold your data.
This is a case of stupid laws that still don't understand the internet (35+ years in to wide use, mofos)
If an http GET request initiated from country A traverses routers and wires around the globe to grab some data from a server in country B, then we have to accept that the owners of the server are not "operating in country A" and in fact the user in country A is responsible for import.
If some laws in country A have a problem with this, then they should unplug their internet wires at the border, or at least learn how to use them and/or govern their citizens.
All that is tongue in cheek to say they can fuck right off.
Also why the fuck would you piss off 4chan with their years of stalking, ddosing, swatting, etc of successful campaigns against anything they felt wrongged or even just annoyed them.
Because these people have never even heard of it. The whole party is a bunch of absolute technophobes. You should see that online advertising it's pathetic.
Yeah it's a stupid law and they were told it wouldn't work by industry experts. But the politicians that were in power when all this was first been decided were Conservatives and therefore arrogant and of the opinion that if they don't like something, it's realities responsibility to reconfigure itself.
Then Labour got in and for some reason implemented the stupid law anyway despite having heard none of the consultations, and of course now it turns out that the consultations told them not to do it. Now I'm sure the industry experts would have been ignored anyway but Labour look really daft now.
They have basically accepted that this law is unworkable and is basically going to be ignored by everyone, but they still have to go through all of the pantomime of trying to enforce it. I'm sure eventually they'll quietly kill it because the whole thing has been such an embarrassment for them.
Th US has taken it to step further. Somehow they've managed to convince a significant junk of the population that a tariff is not a tax, and that the tariff is paid by the importing country, even though that's not how tariffs work. They don't require reality to actually do anything, they just require the populace to be mind numbingly stupid. Fortunately, they are.
It's pretty ironic, the United States was founded on the back of unfair taxation, and yet financial literacy is probably lower in the US than it is in any other country in the world.
I think it's well established by now that this bunch of Labour politicians too are "arrogant and of the opinion that if they don’t like something, it’s realities responsibility to reconfigure itself".
That would amongst other things neatly explain why they went around and implemented the stupid law.
It also doesn't help that they're being advised by people who don't understand the world anymore and who's last real contribution was probably in the 1970s. The fact that they can't even capitalise on the fact that Boris Johnson has been found guilty of misappropriation of government funds is just ridiculous and shows how incompetent they are as politicians.
If some laws in country A have a problem with this, then they should unplug their internet wires at the border, or at least learn how to use them and/or govern their citizens.
What used to be called The Great Firewall of China. It used to be unthinkable for western countries.
You can't blame this on old people. This is only happening now that the Boomers are on the way out. People who sent international letters or made international phone calls were aware that they were communicating with a different country with different laws. I think we are seeing this now, because now we have people who experience the internet as something happening on their own phone, at their location.
The UK didn't ban leaded petrol until 1999 meaning most millenials will suffer from the boomer-loony disease as they were poisoned during their childhood.
Let's also not forget that fuel for light aircraft still contains lead :/
Funnily enough the CIA (yes, the CIA) was largely involved in keeping the internet a free and open space for all, heck they even contributed encryption algorithms to keep data private and such ...
The reason why the free internet existed for so long was because it was a big ideological project for the US. (the internet is the space of all ideas and as such represents the platonic/christian concept of heaven). It's only now ending because it's served its purpose. The people have exchanged ideas worldwide, and that only needs to happen twice, similarly to how you can only infect yourself with the same virus once (because the second infection does way less impact), you can only infect yourself with the same idea once. So, once the worldwide ideas are exchanged, the internet serves very little purpose anymore.
If 4chan make revenue by advertising UK goods and services to UK users, then they are very much operating in the UK. It's not reasonable to make the argument that you should be able to do business with a country and opt out of its laws simply by running the physical servers abroad. We don't tolerate it for wire fraud or CSAM, but nobody's rushing out to defend the sovereign rights of child abusers and scammers.
I don't agree with the Online Safety Act on its own terms, but this is a dud of an argument.
By your logic, any website with advertising is operating in EVERY country worldwide.
No. Every ad platform out there has the advertiser choose what region to advertise in. Nobody wants to pay to advertise in countries where they don’t sell their products. Likewise websites have the option not to serve countries they don’t want to comply with the laws of, and indeed many do this exact thing.
The whole argument being presented is being intentionally naive about both the technology and the law. Y’all are arguing based on how you WANT the world to be rather than how it is.
And as a website you don't deal with any of that, you just implement an ad platform's ad window and they serve whatever regional ads are relevant to your visitors. So yes, practically all websites with advertising would be operating in every country worldwide, by your logic.
Again you’re just factually wrong. The website operator has a wide degree of control over what can appear on their site in the admin panel. They even have the choice of which platform to go with if they don’t. And even if they didn’t, it’s still an argument that relies on “everyone does it ergo it must be ok”, which wouldn’t stand on its own terms either.
To repeat, I'm not supporting the Online Safety Act, but this whole argument seems to rely on the fictional notion that innocent website operators don't know where their data packets are being sent, which hasn't been true since the 1990s.
it’s still an argument that relies on “everyone does it ergo it must be ok”, which wouldn’t stand on its own terms either.
Given that's how the entire Internet works, it does stand on its own terms. The UK isn't influential enough to force the entire Internet to follow suit. They can take it or leave it.
I think this sentiment is common but misses some important things. First: the UK is a big market of internet users, so losing it is not insignificant. Second: most people will not bother with a VPN because it's annoying or costs money. Third: from the UK's perspective, banning non-compliant sites is a good thing.
Recognising all this is important, because it's part of resisting such censorious laws.
It's the 4th largest country of origin for 4chan from what I can find. It doesn't sound like you're actually responding to what I said is being missed. Guess you don't want to.
The argument 4chan uses is laughable. "Freedom of speech of every American?" Tere is no such protection in the US right now.
No one is watching the news? Trump is killing freedom of speech. Anyone dares to advocate equality is getting fired or estorcised. All rainbow, trans or minority rights signs are being eliminated. Our rainbow sidewalk in my city was repainted. Diversity programs are dismantled. Any minority names program is being renamed. Less black people are being hired in the white house than ever.
Even now som states require you to prove your identity before your can log into Internet.
I agree, but letting a foreign government dictate what you can and cannot say on your site is dangerous. If 4chan capitulates then countless other sites are on the chopping block.
I agree, but letting a foreign government dictate what you can and cannot say on your site is dangerous. If 4chan capitulates then countless other sites are on the chopping block.
British government fines an American company, based in America, for serving data from American servers that was compliant with American law.
This whole law is complete overreach. It's like banning a book and then getting mad at the author when one of your citizens buys one on holiday and brings it back with them
Yeah, how come the EU gets to regulate American services with all their data privacy laws? The EU is a tool of the governments to assert control over us, the common people. Plain and simple
Ignoring that the UK isn't part of the EU, the EUs privacy laws extend to all European citizens, and it has treaties with most of the world (including the US) allowing it to enforce those.
Capital punishment is a legal penalty in Iran.[2] The list of crimes punishable by death includes murder; rape; child molestation; homosexuality; drug trafficking; armed robbery; kidnapping; terrorism; burglary; incest; fornication; adultery; sodomy; sexual misconduct; prostitution;[3][4] plotting to overthrow the Islamic government; political dissidence; sabotage; arson; rebellion; apostasy; blasphemy; extortion; counterfeiting; smuggling; recidivist consumption of alcohol; producing or preparing food, drink, cosmetics, or sanitary items that lead to death when consumed or used; producing and publishing pornography; using pornographic materials to solicit sex; capital perjury; recidivist theft; certain military offences (e. g., cowardice, assisting the enemy); "waging war against God"; "spreading corruption on Earth"; espionage; and treason.[5][6] Iran carried out at least 977 executions in 2015, at least 567 executions in 2016,[7] and at least 507 executions in 2017.[8] In 2018 there were at least 249 executions, at least 273 in 2019, at least 246 in 2020, at least 290 in 2021, at least 553 in 2022, at least 834 in 2023,[9] and at least 901 executions in 2024.[10] In 2023, Iran was responsible for 74% of all recorded executions in the world, with the UN confirming that at least 40 people were executed in one week in 2024.
Frankly, 4chan users or operators would probably have violated some of those, were they under jurisdiction of Iranian law.
Pretty sure 4chan is Japanese owned now so I'm confused. I guess they still operate out of the USA. Idk. Currently owned by Hiroyuki Nishimura, who also owns 2channel. He acquired 4chan from Christopher Poole 2015. Good Smile Company is a major investor but he's still in charge.
Lots of corpo structures are just large parent companies that actually just own a bunch of smaller companies so that the parent company gets the profits while the smaller companies make the risky products and can be bankrupted at any minute.
The company I work for does that. We just bought a couple companies that were competitors in a risky but profitable market. The full idea is that if one company gets sued to oblivion, we let that company die, move all the employees and customers to the backup company, and call it a day.
They could go after the owner. I believe he lives in Japan, all the UK has to do is send an extradition request to the Japanese government, bing bang boom all done.
Which they would laugh at. Even the Chinese government would laugh at such a request. It isn't something that is considered universally a crime, like robbery and murder, but the type of shit they are asking for is so fucking unprecedented and unreasonable it's stupid.
It would be like if the UK demanded that France immediately extradite all legal handgun owners in France (where handguns are legal) because it is a crime to possess one in Great Britain and therefore they are criminals. Makes no sense.
Damn fucking straight. I hope it starts an privacy movement so big they realize that all the laws passed since 2000 against terrorism were abject failures and repeal all of them.
Canada is trying to pass major surveillance shit on par with the patriot act on steroids and effectively nullify the need for warrants, all in the name of 'strong borders' and anti terrorism even though it literally gives many US owned and operated companies full and complete access to digital information on Canadians, ironically weakening borders in every way.
And for what? What is the terrorism threat? Al-Qaeda was a always a joke, and the fact that 9/11 happened was far more due to a monumental failure of all intelligence services combined and not due to a lack of resources. Terrorist schemes have been thwarted in the past without the need for extensive surveillance... and most plots are still thwarted primarily by informants and insiders speaking to authorities. The whole 'we need to be super proactive ' has yielded shit results.
Most of the stuff that they claim was 'prevented proactively ' was literally entrapment. They found some mentally ill and/or lonely people who would have done nothing on their own, but ended up being goaded into stupid crap when undercover agents flirted with them, encouraged them, and even offered weapons and explosives for them to use, and if they agreed... well, that's when they nabbed them. No terrorism would have occurred if agents didn't do shit.
Have you ever wondered why so many people are highly distrustful of people talking about doing violent shit? Fed posting? Its because agents have such a long ass history of doing that that you cannot tell who is and who isn't a Fed.
4chan's actual legal response to this can be summarized as "We are incorporated in Delaware which has not been subject to UK law since 1783. See the Treaty of Paris".
Offcom has been drinking, came home in a blackout and committed domestic abuse of 4chan. Does Offcom even internet? Alternative plot twist, Offcom is trolling 4chan.
I wanna say that Offcom is doing a good job and trying to protect British people in good faith but I feel like they are being used as a cudgel by the British ruling class to advance an anachronistic agenda. Don't forget, they fired their expert drugs advisor for telling them that MDMA is comparable to horse riding in terms of safety. They want certain things to be true, regardless of the scientific accuracy.
Probably why they didn't do it in the first place.
They barely pay for moderation. Who is going to pay for that survey? And also why would they? Obviously most of the people on that site are under 18. That's when I used it.
What other demographic clicks the horny ads they run?
Access to Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat on mobile phones is currently restricted in Afghanistan. This comes after the Taliban cut internet and telecommunications services for two days last week.
The apps don't do anything useful if the government blocks connectivity to the servers that the software needs to talk to at the national network infrastructure level.
According to police data, domestic violence reports rose 62.3 per cent and dating violence, 30.5 per cent, during 2024’s holiday compared to non-holiday periods.
Ms Song Ran-hee, representative of the Korea Women’s Hot Line, said that entrenched patriarchal customs also heighten tensions during the holiday. “Family rituals such as ancestral rites remain male-centred in many households, with women shouldering most of the preparations. Even trivial criticisms over food or ingredients can trigger disputes,” she noted.
^^ Ah, there it is, folks.
“In some homes, men and women still eat at separate tables, with men served comfortably while women eat in the kitchen.
Quite disgusting, really.
There are patriarchal customs found in many cultures. We need to be progressive and take them all down.
unfortunately, there is a consistent harmonic of male-bullying-female among babboons, chimps, & humans, throughout known history.
unfortunately, "waiting until prejudice decides, of its own volition, to cease to exist", as the people who push that ALL cultural-alternatives are equally-valid, .. well, the evidence is that prejudice fights for its perpetual dominion instead.
I don't find it "disgusting" that such prejudice is still normal in the majority of the world's population: I find it DEPRESSING, instead.
Apparently male-bullying-female ( while gaslighting: pretending that male-"protects"-female ) has right to perpetuate itself, instead of equal-validity having the right to break/displace such male-bullying-female?
You have your position, I've got mine.
Because I've had it with karma: & I want to chop my continuum/soul out from getting-caught-in-any-more-lives, I'm sticking to mine.
I once came across a blog what was only photo-images of the 1920's..
Eventually I noticed that nearly none of the women in the images were happy.
They all looked either depressed, worn-down, fearful, infringed-from-having-validity, or otherwise harmed.
I don't care that some cultures have "established" that kind of asymmetry of human condition: it isn't a right to do that to any entire-category of humankind, & it especially isn't male right to do that to female-lives, while gaslighting about it.
The more competent one becomes at seeing through appearances, the more clear it is that it's still normal, among North American celebrities, too..
Finally, the adulteration of the story in the book of Genesis probably sets the standard for machiavelianism/dishonesty/gaslighting..
It's plainly visible even now that the text states that women "ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good & evil" WHICH MEANS MORAL-UNDERSTANDING, & then shared that with men.
That is rooted in hard fact: altruism is generalized mothering .. in wasps, in mammals, in anything we've found it in.
A Western philosopher has noted that nihilism's more common among men-philosphers: mothers can't afford to sell-out their children's lives that way, can they?
That the Judeo-Christian tradition twisted "women earned moral-understanding & shared it with men" to the perversion/prejudice-basis "women committed original-sin, downfalling our entire race" .. is unconscionable, yet established.
No matter: IF humankind WON'T get upright, THEN humankind won't survive The Great Filter, & next-century this world will be silent of our dishonesty/abuse/gaslighting, permanently.
This-century, our kind gets cornered into either growing-all-the-way-up XOR force-exterminating-our-species.
All the ideologies/prejudices/"religions" fighting for exclusive supremacism, still-accelerating-ClimatePunctuation, food-insecurity-migrations, war-produced-migrations, accelerationism, mass-shootings, civil-wars, every kind of machiavellianism imaginable, all of it, all together, until there's no rationality left, & only rampaging-ideological-BUTCHERING-tantrum is going-on, that's what it looks like humankind's epitaph is going to be.
But that's every-bit as fine as other-cultures-have-the-right-to-their-prejudices, isn't it?
There's no objective standard for judging anything, is there?
Maybe there isn't to you, but there is to me: objective-morality is a valid-concept, though only for a subset of questions ( not cultural-stuff, but things like equal-validity, yes )
Yes, I get your point , though you make some colorful extrapolations. I'm not saying I'd be agreeing to others morality or condoning differences in our own morality, because they are all different, everybody has their own views. What I don't like is when people claim the higher moral ground, without understanding any of the other's cultural context and by proclaiming their culture should be like ours. Other cultures are other cultures. You can disagree with (some) of their practices, and equally other cultures will probably say similar things of yours.
But when femicide. and domestic abuse in the West is on the rise it's an increasing problem. So, that's why I said; maybe lets focus first on fixing our own shit, before pointing the finger on someone else.
A sobering report released by UN Women and the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) on Monday reveals that in 2023, 140 women and girls died every day at the hands of their partner or a close relative, which means one woman killed every 10 minutes.
A ( metaphoric ) point that I find humankind is ignoring/denying:
WHEN you're on a bus that's being driven by 1 or another gang, & those gangs are fighting each-other for supremacism/dominion, & they don't care whether anyone survives, because it is their ruling that is the only thing that matters to them,
AND THE PATH THEY'RE TAKING IS FATAL TO THE WORLD,
it doesn't matter "who" drives the bus when it leaves the cliff: the "stampeding off the cliff" is fatal to the whole herd, see?
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is something that needs to be having ALL gov't policies tied to it, when judging what is authorized, & what isn't.
AND it needs to be the test for moralities, too.
Does something amplify the still-accelerating ClimatePunctuation?
IF so, THEN it has to have sooo much benefits that it's worth it.
Does it protect the millenia-established male-bullying-female?
THEN it costs both current & future lives, and rights, and our species' real-viability.
As many have pointed-out, male-bullying-female automatically shuts-down 50% of our brains being allowed to contribute to our surviving this-century, & that is idiotic or worse.
ALL the problems have to be seen, & balanced against each-other.
What Russia's doing to Ukraine ( & soon to the EU as a whole ), what Trump will shortly be doing to Canada ( same as Russia->Ukraine, for the same colonial-imperial motivations ) are survival-grade problems.
Different election-systems/processes have long-term-morality consequences.. making particular-futures more or less likely..
There's an English mathematician ( redhead, kinda roundish, moved to Glasgow for professional reason, it was a yt video of his, aweful video, stupendous insight ) who identified that there is exactly 1 thing that all the most-successful complex-projects do, that none of the unsuccessful ones do:
create a functionally-complete visual-spacial model of the required system, leaving no kind of function out,
and only then begin the scaling of that model into implimentation.
Even questions of morality can be dealt-with this way, identifying that some choices extinguish us, & when people can SEE that, then our thinking changes.
It isn't hearing-about this-issue, or that-issue, or whatever, it isn't being reminded and holding-everything-in-our-heads,
it is SEEing it, as a visual-spacial model, so that the consequences become implied in how the representation looks, and then we can begin judging things objectively.
Now consider 2 allowed-futures, 1 where 50% of the human-lives have their life-potential stomped-on by male-supremacism, & the other where ALL humans are allowed contributing to our viability..
Which is more-likely to survive this-century's Great Filter ( when a species that won't grow-up has nuclear-level technologies, & does a multi-stage global tantrum-pogrom to beat/break/smash "god" into obeying unconscious-ignorances "godly" ENTITLEMENT, as the tantrum-toddler it is, that OUR OWN unconscious-mind is now enacting )?
That's objective, not mere-opinion/cultural-opinion.
Here's an example of competing-moralities:
Some want all internal-combustion-engines killed, today, no matter the cost.
Others want a phased switch.
I'm with the phased, but aggressive switchover people, simply because I know that if you kill all of them, immediately, then you've just executed the economic-viability of remote-regions, & their people.
City people don't have a problem with policies which butcher rural lives: this is consistently proven..
& the remote lives of people who live .. say in the Aussie outback, or in Canada's north, or offshore .. why should international-policy respect/value them, when they're not where the money is, right?
But to me, you have to look at the whole overall, & consider all the effects, & balance the whole.
You can't hold that women's lifeworth "isn't important enough to count in the world's balance-sheet, because men never counted it in the past" .. that isn't good-enough.
Here's another example of competing-moralities:
Which should we do?
Oppose the genociding of Palestinians, XOR oppose the genociding of Ukranians, XOR oppose genociding in Sudan, XOR oppose genociding in the Congo region, XOR oppose femicide in either China, XOR India, XOR here in the West?
The framing is the problem: it presumes that only 1 can be chosen.
Caving on ANY of these is .. disintegrity, to be polite.
& caving on any of these will have strategic-survival consequences for our future.
The leaving-Somalia-to-piracy, and not providing them with any alternative, meant that they did convert to piracy, & now that piracy-economy can't be removed: it's now a whole world shipping problem.
The leaving-northern-Mexico-to-the-drug-cartels and not breaking that from ruling that country's civilization, means that now those drug-cartels can't be removed.
What we allow to set-deep-roots bites our future in the face, with venom, consistently..
All this to say, that .. yeah, sometimes morality is objective, in spite of what the absolute-relativists pretend.
Red-meat based diet isn't only economically strategic-suicide, & health ( yes, the heart-attack-rate is increased by eating red meat, no matter which country one is from ), but it's also ecologically-suicide.
Opposing those facts is ideological/moral for some factions.
But objectivity must override ideology, XOR we, as a species, are .. finished, this-century.
In Science there is a fundamental-principle: IF the experiment contradicts the theory, robustly, & it isn't some confounding-factor, THEN the theory's falsified.
Feynman was big on that.
Ideology-based "science" IS NOT Science, see?
All who hold that all questions of morality are only-cultural-opinion, & that there is no objective-standard that can validly be applied.. the evidence contradicts that.
"it's all relative" is an ideological position, but the fact that some choices produce greater-slaughter whereas other choices reduce harm .. is real, is objective, is fact.
So, no, I do not accept that morality is only opinion/culture-habit, and is not in any way objectively-testable or objectively-measurable..
The problem is in finding which values are long-term, vs which aren't,
in finding which values are concentration-of-benefits-to-few/eradication-of-benefits-from-many & forcing the measurement-system to correctly-identify that as narcissism, as it objectively is ( instead of the propaganda-is-"journalism" system we now have, brainwashing all the discussions )
in finding which values uphold the LivingPotential in all lives, vs the values which only value some lives' potential..
etc..
Eventually patterns of bias become visible, & then one has to remember that universe's Natural Selection law is going to be the final judge.
Our opinion isn't what kills us when we stampede-off-a-cliff, right?
It's the fact that we indulged in making-believing & now our bones & body-lives are broken, right?
The question of whether incompetence/intentional-ignorance is a socially valid decision, however: certainly it's socially valid.
Stupid, but socially valid.
Humankind has every right to force its own extinguishment, while making-believing in ego-games, all it wants!
But there is "morality" in that snuffing-of-all-future-generations, too, isn't there?
No, I do not stand with the "it's all relative: no objective-standard for any moral-question exist, nor can it ever exist, & we ought just accommodate prejudice until it ceases perpetuating-itself, that's the proper moral stand".
Exactly as Martin Luther King, Jr, stated: accommodating injustice anywhere, is a moral crime: it means that fundamentally, one is accommodating injustice, & that has consequences everywhere.
Our world's in a survival-of-the-fittest stage, natural for this level of population-saturating-the-planet, & which morality survives this-century will be decided by questions of moral-darwinism AND by questions of did-humankind-survive-or-not.
Women having equal-validity increases the odds of humankind-surviving this-century.
Women not being allowed equal-vality decreases the odds of humankind-surviving this-century.
The same is true of the question about oligarchy/corporate-feudalism/monarchy/etc .. various concentration-of-rights-and-exclusion-from-rights paradigms.
Objective-morality requires that civil-rights stand against such privilege-rules-exclusively paradigms.
This, itself, is objective morality, in action.
( everybody, feel free to block me, as all logged-in people can do .. see only what you want to be seeing, right? )
On October 13, a court outside Paris will put on trial Dr. Dilnur Reyhan, a prominent French-Uyghur scholar and activist, and the president of the European Uyghur Institute, for the criminal offense of “degradation of property belonging to others.”
Three employees of China’s embassy in Paris had filed a complaint against Dilnur Reyhan for her participation in a protest against the Chinese government at a Paris-area music festival in September 2022. During the festival, she allegedly threw red paint on an embassy banner, which, one plaintiff reported, resulted in a €25 shoe-cleaning fee.
The Chinese government alleged that Dilnur Reyhan had caused “damage to property” and that it was a “racist attack” -- a charge later dropped. Dilnur Reyhan was publicly protesting Chinese government crimes against the Uyghurs in northwest China, including mass arbitrary detention and imprisonment, torture, enforced disappearances, mass surveillance, cultural and religious persecution, separation of families, and forced labor. Human Rights Watch and others have concluded that some of these acts amount to crimes against humanity.
“For the Chinese embassy, the aim is not to win or lose the case, but to impose a psychological and financial cost [on me] to silence [my] criticism,” Dilnur Reyhan said during a hearing in March. “I should not be prosecuted by the French courts but, instead, protected against China’s attempts to silence me.”
[...]
The prosecutor initially dismissed the Chinese government’s complaint in 2023. But the prosecutor reopened it on appeal a month after Chinese President Xi Jinping made an official visit to France in May 2024 and hundreds of Uyghurs, Tibetans, and others protested. A hearing scheduled for March 2025 was postponed until October when neither the Chinese embassy representatives nor its employees showed up.
In recent years the Chinese government has escalated its harassment of critics abroad and members of the diaspora, acts of abuse beyond China’s borders known as “transnational repression.” For instance, in July Chinese authorities arrested a Chinese student, Tara Zhang Yadi, for the grave crime of “inciting separatism,” all because she advocated for Tibetan rights while studying in Paris.
Not OP and not particularly knowledgeable, but under Modi India has shifted into something closer to old-school, early 1900s fascism than almost any other country currently. For example, his rise to power was largely on the back of inciting mob violence against Muslims while giving the perpetrators impunity. He continued that policy on the national level, and his party's paramilitary wing is much like the Brownshirts.
Coordinated Pro-Russian Propaganda Network Targeting ActivityPub and ATProto Services
Update October 25: Accounts are still being created (571 observed so far), and a number of servers are either unwilling or unresponsive in removing these accounts. A list of servers recommended for limiting or defederating is now available at about.iftas.org/library/known-…
Update October 14: Accounts are still being created, and unused accounts registered earlier are being activated.
Since 15 September, IFTAS has been tracking a coordinated network of over 300 accounts operating across Mastodon. These accounts are engaged in a high-volume propaganda campaign, promoting pro-Russian narratives and linking to Telegram channels associated with known state-aligned disinformation operations. We became aware of a related investigation by the Antibot4Navalny research team that observed these accounts bridging to Bluesky, and we have since collaborated to enhance our investigations and share our findings. Their public post provides further context.
Antibot4Navalny’s observations identified additional impacted services we were unaware of, and highlighted that accounts were still being created. Furthermore, thanks to their specific expertise in this area, this helped clarify and confirm that what we were seeing was indeed the work of a coordinated campaign with an increased likelihood of it being a state-sponsored or state-approved campaign.
We have been contacting affected Mastodon administrators, and are now moving to a public advisory to inform the broader network.
The network includes accounts impersonating reputable news outlets such as BBC News, Euronews, and Meduza, designed to give credibility to Telegram propaganda links. We believe it may be connected to the “Pravda/Portal Kombat” pro-Russia propaganda network.
Accounts are hosted across numerous Mastodon instances and bridged into Bluesky, creating the appearance of independent sources. Activity on Bluesky helped reveal aggregate patterns, identical usernames, posting schedules, and content themes more clearly than across decentralised Mastodon services.
This campaign appears to mimic tactics observed in earlier influence operations, blending low-cost automation with impersonation and volume-based amplification.
Remember every time we find Putin backed propaganda outside of Russia in the wild, it's nearly always boosting predominantly conservative viewpoints versus anything else.
Outside of their borders they're more interested in people fighting with each other than anything like coming together. Right wing politics is how they do that
Sorry, but this is wrong. They're also actively sponsoring "left wing" propaganda, to further sow discord. Depending on which group you yourself belong to, it's just easier to spot "the others".
And of that propaganda being created, that conservative inclined people are most likely to fall for it: journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/…
There seem to be plenty of other papers that more or less reach those same conclusions with a good number of citations, but I can't find anything really at all on Google Scholar concluding the opposite with a quick search, let alone something also credible.
The closest some papers come is saying that they try groups all over the political spectrum, as their goal is disunity ultimately, but they seemingly don't really have any kind of continued success with misinforming those groups anywhere near as effectively. They more or less all end up concluding that most of the propaganda targets conservatives, because they're the ones that fall for it.
I think one of the problems with citing that first study as evidence Russian disinfo is targeted at conservatives more than liberals is that it only studied one case, and Russian disinformation campaigns tailor their disinfo to different demographics, often through brute force/trial and error. So it is quite possible that the particular case they studied happens to be tailored to (or more successfully resonated with) conservatives, while another specific case would have resonated with liberals more thus resulting in more liberal exposure by their metrics.
Your assertion that more is conservative is a meaningless assertion in the context of this discussion.
More can be conservative on average but you don't see an average view of the internet, you see your filter bubble, and that source backs up the original assertion that yes, Russia is targeting leftists too.
Rumors and smears are part of free speech. To the extent that right-wing trolls and their audience are actual voters, it's essentially just a coarse form of ordinary political speech.
The extent to which a foreign government acting coverly is either creating or artificially boosting such content is scandalous.
True enough. But even a tyrannical government at least has a presumable intent of working for the betterment of its country. (Albeit through wrongheaded and small-minded means )
A.foreijgn power, especially a historical adversary and bad actor, is instead presumably working to harm or diminish us.
No, they have the intent of working for themselves. That's it. They don't give a shit about the country and you should never presume the ruling class of your country has your country's best interests in mind.
You presented it as proof that Russia is supporting misinformation on the left. To be that, it has to both include all three parts of the claim -- that there is disinformation on the left, that Russia is covertly supporting disinformation, and that some of the disinformation on the left was supported by Russia.
If your wife sleeps around, and I engage in casual sex, it does not necessarily follow that I slept with your wife.
A common suspicion in America is that Vladimir Putin believes that Trump as POTUS is good for Russia, and that Putin interferes with US politics with a specific goal of helping Trump.
If you have some reporting that directly links Russia to left-wing disinformation I'd love to read it. But the BBC article I read after following your link didn't have any such link.
When you make a statement it's your responsibility to provide proof because what if you're talking out of your ass? How would we find any proof in that scenario when it literally wouldn't exist? How would we know if you misinterpreted a source? How would we know we misinterpreted the correct source? What if we think what you're saying is so stupid we don't want to waste our time looking for proof? There are a lot of reasons the burden of proof shouldn't fall on us, which means the burden of proof should fall on the person who made the statement. They know if what they said is factual and if it's factual they know where they found this fact and thus it would be significantly less effort for them to find and present the source.
Better. That actually supports the assertion that Russia does engage in left-targeted disinformation (in Canada, on Twitter.)
It also supports the original point you dismissed as "wrong" -- of the 90 "most influential" accounts, only 9 were subjectively identified as "Canadian far left".
Maybe you should spend more time reading the actual articles, and not just their headlines?
Absolutely and utterly false. They try and promote fighting, anger, and distrust of government to everyone.
They target leftists with things that will upset them, make them angry at the right and the government and other leftists and sow further discord and polarization.
Less extreme Leftists generally aren't nearly as likely to be control freaks as the right (although there are always exceptions), so getting them (as a group) angry enough to fight takes much more effort than it does the right.
A source for my lived experience? Or do you mean an example?
I have been banned from .ml twice for stating that Russia shot down a civilian airliner over Ukraine - a matter of incontrovertible fact which has absolutely nothing to do with any leftist theory, as far as my masters degree in political science can discern.
.ml is moderated to be ideologically one sided. Pro-capitalism is literally not allowed and will deleted. Making a pro-west or anti-China or Russia comment is like a bat signal for .ml admins and users alike to dogpile on your comment.
It’s their right to moderate their instance how they see fit, but removing content on ideological grounds is going to result in people thinking what’s left is propaganda.
For the most part I like .ml users, I don’t care for the admin team and moderator decisions and that’s why I’m not on that instance. I could care less about the fact my instance is defederated from hexbear users or grad users. They do want to be polarizing and live in a propaganda bubble
I wouldn't call them that. Most if not all of them are genuine people with some having accs for many years before Reddit crossed the line for most of us and them becoming anyhow relevant to interfere. In a recent hexbearean post about fediverse negativity I've read a couple of opinions with a notion that federating with others wasn't that great, and they were pretty happy just by themselves. I assume, it's the same for other two too. That's a game too long and effortful to be a psyop imho. Their positions and where they get their info are things to argue, but let's not get as far as dehumanizing them.
Almost everywhere I soundly proclaim that I am a russian dummy anarchist, that I live in that state for I have no options, and I angrily disagree with their fascination, mystification of what it is, I hold a grudge with anyone who wants that russki mir to be the model the whole world should share.
I, nevertheless, find a lot of points, like personal stuff and grieveancies, theoretical things, sympathy to protesters, to Gazan survivors that I share with them. Unlike transparently racist/fascist troll comms that were there, unlike their campaigns I've noticed, there is a huge population of real people worthy of talking, arguing with.
Call me any names and ban me, but as long as any person or community is supportive of basic pillar causes like body autonomy, you, like, can at least talk to them and find something in common.
What I missed though, is that Diva said the same, but misleadingly doubted the existence of russian bot networks. Them and state suppression ruined the rusophonic space to that degree I dropped it altogether. I don't know how their actions affected other countries, but as a nolifer shitposting addict trying to trust them just a bit, I came through fire, water and copper tubes before dropping them altogether. They are like current Twitter, but worse. And, well, fuck, I wasn't abandoning that to find the next option already corrupted.
To be honest I didn't understand the thrust of most of what you wrote, but if you are against the Rusky Mir, you are probably on the right side to begin with. If you are an anarchist, you probably have no place on .ml to begin with.
Drunktexting and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
The main point why I wrote it was that I don't find them either bots or artifical influencers. They do probably want to have some reach or fresh blood, but don't want their local culture to be spread too thin like it's reddit 2.0. They are anything but cancer that I've met seeing real botfaming ops.
And, although I don't share many of their thoughts, most of the posts I see in my feed discuss common issues where we aren't that far from each other. Closer, than to maga/zionist/z-crowd. And in that context I find it alright to not draw any lines and just talk.
When things start to get overly political, well, that's a whole another thing, where different bestest solutions are incompatible, historical betrayals are dugged up and the internet infighting ensues. It's exhausting and pointless with just 2mil mostly irrelevant nerds on Fediverse. It's easier to just scroll through some amuzing takes, and instead focus on things where we can cooperate.
"I have to admit, I'm always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up," the CIA agent says.
"Thank you," the KGB agent says. "We do our best but truly, it's nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them."
The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. "Thank you friend, but you must be confused... There's no propaganda in America."
Lots of people can not stand the fact that you don't agree with them. They will accuse you of being a bot or something, rather than to accept the fact that people have different opinions on things.
The fact the comments here are so contentious is just funny. I will block as is appropriate but so far have not had to do to much of it on the fediverse. Man it needs to be reciprical though so their training is limited.
There are obviously agents from elsewhere, and some of them may be pretty effective, but it's nothing compared to Trump and Co getting money from the likes of Saudis and acting like they own the place. If the main concern is american politics, well, the real worms aren't theoretical or real foreign enemies, but corrupted fuckheads that ignore human, state rights, shutdown government, pack people from the streets to deport. No enemy could've done such damage so-called friends are doing.
The rise in right-wing nationalism has been notable across Europe, as well. It's a good guess that the Russians have been pushing that, too. The US is just ahead of the curve.
The network includes accounts impersonating reputable news outlets such as BBC News, Euronews, and Meduza, designed to give credibility to Telegram propaganda links. We believe it may be connected to the “Pravda/Portal Kombat” pro-Russia propaganda network.
Accounts are hosted across numerous Mastodon instances and bridged into Bluesky, creating the appearance of independent sources. Activity on Bluesky helped reveal aggregate patterns, identical usernames, posting schedules, and content themes more clearly than across decentralised Mastodon services.
If your first reaction was to post "posts I dislike are Russian bots", then you haven't actually grasped the argument. It has nothing to do with anyone disagreeing with specific posts.
It's also very telling that you're reflexively posting that when it says nothing about the data being presented.
The Grayzone has geolocated the underground bunker of an important military command and control center nestled within a densely populated Tel Aviv neighborhood. Known as ‘Site 81,’ the U.S.-built facility houses a hyper-secretive intelligence base.
When Iran struck a series of targets in the heart of north Tel Aviv with ballistic missiles on June 13, Israeli authorities immediately cordoned off the area to prevent journalists from filming the damage. “The building on this compound was just hit,” Trey Yingst of Fox News reported as he arrived that evening at the site of HaKirya, Israel’s Defense Ministry headquarters, and the nearby Azrieli Center. But within seconds, Israeli police officers arrived to aggressively shunt Yingst away from where he was standing, just north of the HaKirya Bridge on the west side of Menachem Begin Road.
That day, Iranian missiles struck the north tower of the Da Vinci apartment complex roughly 550 meters southwest of Yingst’s location. The Grayzone has determined that the building sits immediately south of the “Canarit” / “Kannarit” Israeli Air Force towers and above an underground military intelligence bunker jointly administered by the US and Israeli militaries. According to an analysis of leaked emails, public documents, and Israeli news reports, the location is host to a highly secretive, electromagnetically shielded intelligence facility known as “Site 81.”
Israel aggressively censors information relating to its urban military and intelligence facilities while simultaneously accusing its adversaries of engaging in ‘human shielding’ – a practice of protecting military targets with civilian populations that is prohibited by international humanitarian law. While the existence of a U.S. Army project to expand Site 81 to a 6,000 square-meter facility was widely reported from government records circa 2013, the specific location remained unknown...
It's always projection with fascists. "Khamas is using human shields!!!1!" "oh shit, pay no attention to our super secret spy base we built with the American Nazis right under apartment buildings in the middle of a residential area. We just really liked the location for other less illegal reasons."
ttbomk, India did an official execution/hit/assassination of a Canadian Sikh man, sometime in the last couple of years..
it isn't "just Muslims" that Modi's modeled-on-Republican-religious-polarization is cutting: it's everybody not-Hindutva, apparently.
No matter: His fake-protection against China is going to get his Hindutva-India butchered by China, when Russia refuses to lift a finger against its puppetmaster China, .. perhaps as soon as next-year.
( ever seen an addict fighting against their own unconscious-mind's addiction, for their own life & losing?
The whole world looks like that, to me, now.
Addicted-to-ideologies, "no time for" things like still-accelerating-ClimatePunctuation, or strategically-required quality-of-education & child-nutrition, or absolute-epidemic-mitigation, or international-state-backed-terrorism..
ideology's always 1st..
it will be, until there's nobody left, apparently.
I believe it's common there to celebrate with gunfire. It probably wasn't especially chosen to celebrate ceasefire with gunfire. I could be midtown though.
When I visited Jerusalem with my wife several years ago we were also standing upright in our hotel room when we suddenly heard yelling and gunfire and when we spoke to the hotel guys they told us we shouldn't worry, it was just a wedding celebration.
Wouldn't that not be just another reason to not fire weapons randomly in populated areas?
But what you are saying is basically exactly what I am trying to get at: War has become so much normalized in the region, that people just don't know otherwise any more. Quoting the somewhat fitting Cranberries song: "In your head, they're still fighting". Even while a glimmer of peace is shining across the horizon.
I'm from the region and this is a thing even in places that aren't and have historically not erupted into violent outbursts. It's just a local culture thing, and according to Wikipedia isn't even an exclusively Middle Eastern thing.
Even as initial celebrations unfolded, details of the agreement remained unclear on Thursday, including whether the parties in Egypt had made any progress on thornier questions about the future of the conflict, such as whether Hamas will demilitarise, as Trump has demanded, and how the war-torn territory will be governed in future.
So it isn't even conclusive. There's no way to make sure Israel won't break the cease fire. There's only hostage trade. Hopefully there's more detail coming out soon.
They'll probably wait until the hostages are exchanged and return to annihilation
Probably won't even wait that long.
While the broader population seem to genuinely consider the hostages extremely important, the decision makers in the government don't care about them except as a convenient excuse for doing what they've always wanted to do.
I mean, I can see that some people are easily fooled by him when he speaks like an idiot, makes silly faces and tells all the possible lies he can, but yeah, he didn't do shit.
If Harris has won and took the exact same actions as Trump as it relates to Israel, which doesn't seem too unlikely given the way all of Washington on both sides kowtows to Israel, would you be taking the same stance that "she didn't do anything to help bring this about?"
Look, I hate Trump as much as the next guy, but I find it unlikely people would be coming out of the woodwork to slam Harris, even if she did the exact same things.
Just because someone is a villain, it doesn't mean that literally every single thing they do is villainous. I'm not gonna stop drinking Coke, just because Donald Trump drinks Coke. And I can recognize the the US was positively involved in this ceasefire negotiation, even if I hate the guy heading the US.
Trump can still be evil, even if he's right sometimes, and even if he does the right thing sometimes. He's not a comic book character. He's a very real, human kind of evil. And just because he's not stomping on puppies every day doesn't mean he's not bad.
And if you're not willing to admit when he does a good thing, your hatred isn't founded in reality, it's founded on purest tribalism.
Some of those gathered in the city’s hostage square said Trump should be recognised for his role in brokering the deal, calling for a “Nobel prize to Trump” as they gathered in the early hours of the morning to celebrate.
Oh, he'll love to hear that. I, for one, find it hard to give him any credit beyond 'he was there'. Then again, Biden was so incredibly weak stopping Israel, fighting under him might have dragged on for longer.
Technically a ceasefire is just a pause in hostilities. Like if you stop bombing to refuel the bombers. And there is a good chance that Bibi will do just that.
I really loved when, a few years ago, he fell ill and flew to France (IIRC) for medical treatment. His family was so sure he wouldn't make it, they filled a commercial airliner with people ready to flee the country.
Then he bounced back! GD Methusala over here. And they all had to go home and pretend like nothing happened.
As the central African country prepares for Sunday's presidential election, he said he would not be heading out to vote. [... ] “He is already too old to govern, and it’s boring knowing only him as president," Nghobo told The Associated Press
The British government’s refusal to testify that China is a national security threat in a major espionage trial has signalled to Beijing that “the UK can be bullied”, according to a former senior diplomat who was due to be a prosecution witness in the now-collapsed case.
The warning comes after Stephen Parkinson, the director of public prosecutions (DPP), revealed that his team had repeatedly tried and failed to obtain witness statements from the government that said China was a threat to UK national security.
Prosecutors had to abandon the trial of two British men charged with spying on parliamentarians for China, just weeks before it was due to start, because of the government’s refusal to provide the evidence, Parkinson said in a letter to MPs on Tuesday.
Charles Parton, a former UK diplomat who spent more than two decades working on China, Hong Kong and Taiwan, had been due to appear as a prosecution witness in the trial.
“In broad fashion, this [collapse] says to the Chinese, ‘yes, we can bully the British, they will crumble if we play hard ball in whatever the negotiation is’ — that’s the worrying thing to me”, he told the Financial Times.
The failed prosecution was, he added, “a missed opportunity to demonstrate clearly China’s espionage efforts, and to say to anyone thinking of betraying our national interest, that you will be caught and punished”.
Parton, now an associate fellow at the Royal United Services Institute, said: “There is absolutely no doubt China is a threat, and it’s a common sense point. A threat equals hostility, intent and capability. Well, each of those is very easy to prove.”
Their main purpose is enabling their users to consume content from various sources in one place.
Uh, no? RSS/Atom only contains a summary. It's to inform you about news, a alternative to E-Mail newsletters. Website scraping is extra functionality some clients do.
RSS/Atom can contain a summary, or it can be the full article. It's the choice of the website what to put in it. They only put a summary to force you to visit their webpage to serve ads.
I have tried all sorts of RSS feeds. All the same painful to navigate through a painful, outdated email-like interface that makes it vastly inferior to, you know, scrolling through a website.
FFS, RSS people must have grown up on being desk jockeys stuck in Outlook all day and they don't know how to navigate anything else.
I don't know if it's Lemmy not standing different opinions than: A) some opinions don't add much value to any conversation except to say "I disagree" and that's both not super helpful and in a small community I'd argue it's healthy for positive engagement to be more prevalent than negative engagement. B) some comments disagree or tear down a solution without offering up a good alternative - which leaves the people with solutions feeling worse for their solution, the problem unaddressed in a different way, and if someone likes their solution or even knows it's superior to alternatives it becomes very easy to down vote a subjectively wrong opinion.
In this instance "going to the website" is not a helpful alternative for a tool who's purpose is to aggregate many desired websites into one location only when they have new content. "Going to the website" would be less efficient both in time and effort. This person saying they don't get them, while being on Lemmy - a site aggregator - is to me very funny.
My instinct was to down vote because it was already down voted and for the reasons above, but your comment gave me pause so now I won't down vote but I also won't upvote because it's not content I think anyone should waste their time reading.
Should there be a neutral response on site aggregators for this very circumstance? Never thought about that before.
I think that's a very common and logical instinct/bias. I'm fairly confident you and everyone else does this as well. If someone told you two compare two drinks and that one was expensive, the expensive one gets a statistical boon. If someone says this book sucks and the author is an asshole, you're primed to take previously neutral statements and skew them towards a negative understanding.
I always read before voting but ya, we have bias my guy and talking about them is good.
I’ve liked using FreshRSS in the past, but has the developer finally capitulated and allowed users to sort entries by publication date?
It was probably the most requested feature and they always insisted it didn’t make sense or wasn’t possible despite being a common feature among other RSS feed readers.
my problem with these was that id have one website filling up the feed with a lot of posts and another interesting website that only makes a post every once in awhile and i almost never see it
I have a firehose folder on freshrss that has its own rotation rules such that posts are only retained for a couple days and are then deleted. It is also excluded from the “main” feed listing. Works great for news sites.
I’ve been using FeedBin after Google Reader sunset… so, a long time now. Every year I say I’ll bring it in-house, then I get billed for another year and say fuck it. It works fine. And now they have a minimalist podcast app called Airshow that lets me use my FeedBin account to synch my podcasts across devices. So, whatever… take my money. 25$ a year isn’t going to break me.
Edit: want to add that I use Netnewswire (free) to read my feeds. Integrates Feedbin and isn’t overkill on ridiculous feature that turn it into a p.o.s. subscription app.
Abdel Qader Sabbah and Sharif Abdel Kouddous Oct 13, 2025
In Khan Younis, thousands of people gathered to greet the freed detainees, who arrived in dozens of buses operated by the Red Cross and in Red Crescent ambulances. The crowds gathered in the courtyard of Nasser Hospital and on rooftops and balconies overlooking the medical complex where the freed captives were taken for medical checks. Nasser hospital, which has been repeatedly bombed by the Israeli military, is one of only 13 out of 38 hospitals still partially functioning in Gaza.
Freed detainees wearing gray jumpsuits leaned out of bus windows and waved to the crowds. Family members and friends embraced them through the windows as they drove by.
VIDEO: Hundreds of Palestinian Captives Released in Khan Younis From Israeli Detention
Abdel Qader Sabbah and Sharif Abdel Kouddous Oct 13, 2025
In Khan Younis, thousands of people gathered to greet the freed detainees, who arrived in dozens of buses operated by the Red Cross and in Red Crescent ambulances. The crowds gathered in the courtyard of Nasser Hospital and on rooftops and balconies overlooking the medical complex where the freed captives were taken for medical checks. Nasser hospital, which has been repeatedly bombed by the Israeli military, is one of only 13 out of 38 hospitals still partially functioning in Gaza.
Freed detainees wearing gray jumpsuits leaned out of bus windows and waved to the crowds. Family members and friends embraced them through the windows as they drove by.
Abdel Qader Sabbah and Sharif Abdel Kouddous Oct 13, 2025
In Khan Younis, thousands of people gathered to greet the freed detainees, who arrived in dozens of buses operated by the Red Cross and in Red Crescent ambulances. The crowds gathered in the courtyard of Nasser Hospital and on rooftops and balconies overlooking the medical complex where the freed captives were taken for medical checks. Nasser hospital, which has been repeatedly bombed by the Israeli military, is one of only 13 out of 38 hospitals still partially functioning in Gaza.
Freed detainees wearing gray jumpsuits leaned out of bus windows and waved to the crowds. Family members and friends embraced them through the windows as they drove by.
CNN will host a live town hall with progressive lawmakers Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Wednesday, October 15, the network announced Friday.
The town hall will air at 9 p.m. ET and will be moderated by CNN’s Kaitlan Collins from Washington, DC.
The event comes as the government shutdown is set to enter a third week, leaving roughly 1.4 million federal employees furloughed or working without pay. The funding lapse has already affected travel, and its impact could soon be seen on food assistance programs and the economy overall.
Mark Elliott, Professor of Public Law at the University of Cambridge, provides a good analysis on Starmer's comments.
The Prime Minister insists that the dropping of China-related espionage charges occurred for reasons entirely outwith the control of his government — but his argument that his hands were tied by the previous government’s position on China is, at best, highly contestable ...
The reality is that it is open to the government today to say that it considers that China was a threat to national security in 2021–23 and to offer that view as evidence for the purpose of criminal proceedings ...
The Prime Minister has claimed that his government’s hands are tied in relation to whether China constituted an ‘enemy’ for the purpose of a now-dropped criminal prosecution under…
During Friday's massive strike action in support of the Palestinians, demonstrators went to the Italian national team's training centre in Florence to demand the match against Israel be called off.
As of Tuesday only around 4,000 tickets had been sold for the game in Udine, a small city in Italy's far north-east, which was picked specifically to help limit the potential for disorder.
Italy are struggling to qualify automatically for next year's World Cup finals and the pressure on the team is exacerbated by the tension surrounding next Tuesday's qualifier with Israel in Udine.
All children – wherever they are in the world – deserve to be children: to explore, laugh and play, especially since play is a vital path to their learning and growth. But what about Palestinian children’s play time – or lack thereof? This is a human right taken from them by Israel.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Israel and Hamas have agreed to the “first phase” of his peace plan to pause fighting and release at least some hostages and prisoners, U.S. President Donald Trump said Wednesday in announcing the outlines of the biggest breakthrough in months in the two-year-old war.
“This means that ALL of the Hostages will be released very soon, and Israel will withdraw their Troops to an agreed upon line as the first steps toward a Strong, Durable, and Everlasting Peace,” Trump wrote on social media. “All Parties will be treated fairly!”
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on social media, “With God’s help we will bring them all home.” Hamas said separately that the deal would ensure the withdrawal of Israeli troops as well as allow for the entry of aid and exchange of hostages and prisoners.
Hamas plans to release all 20 living hostages this weekend, people familiar with the matter told The Associated Press, while the Israeli military will begin a withdrawal from the majority of Gaza.
So what are the odds this lasts, and how does Trump react if his grand plan falls apart? The 20 point plan seems like it'll be a very hard sell in Israel in general, let alone to the far right partners in Netanyahu's coalition.
The reason I don’t think that will happen is he needs his evangelical base and they’re obsessed with full support for Israel because they desperately want the temple in Jerusalem rebuilt because they think it’ll bring about the end times.
It's possible. And then how does Israel react? There's already been talk of autarky over there, and they have a nuclear arsenal. The pieces are there for a last-ditch attempt at becoming a rogue state if US backing disappears.
A nation like North Korea, for example, has good relations with one neighbour, and their relations with the other entirely depend on how much they've pissed them off lately.
Israel isn't so fortunate. Without support from countries like the US, they'd likely cease to exist, given how they've systematically pissed off every neighbour they have.
It's not an exact analogy, though, because they're actually stronger than their neighbors, who don't really have superpower allies of their own. If Israel were to take that path, they'd start by expanding (more), and rely on the weakening of the world order to get away with it. The economics would be straight out of the historical empires.
I think that's plausible just because of how deep into the hate Israeli society has gotten, and how they've already set up economic and legal mechanisms like that on a small scale, through their settlement movement.
The other option is basically that, however it shakes out through domestic politics, they give up and do whatever the US makes them. Which would be less frightening, but leaves another chapter to be written whenever the US fully loses interest in having anything to do with them, since the shift away from Zionism crosses party lines there.
The whole regime lies twice every time they open their mouth once. Sorry Diaper Donnie, you still haven't earned that Nobel Prize, now release the Epstein files.
This is like the third time we've been at the "both sides agree!" Portion of things, only for it to never actually happen, Israel just continues the murdering...
Germany's competition watchdog has announced an investigation of Chinese discount online retail site temu.com, suspecting it of influencing retailers' prices. The site is the fastest-growing of its kind in the world.
Some people have the audacity to say that Trump's policies don't lead to misery and death.
U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio sat before Congress and declared: “No one has died” because of his government’s decision to gut its foreign aid program. Rubio also insisted: “No children are dying on my watch.”
But the data says and projects otherwise.
A study published in The Lancet journal in June said the U.S. funding cuts could result in more than 14 million deaths, including more than 4.5 million children under age 5, by 2030.
The United States could have been a beacon of hope and a model to look up to. For many years, that was the case for people and immigrants all around the world.
In a matter of months, that has all crumbled to its foundation. It's so hard to watch.
No, it was never a model all around the world. The US has been hurting some groups of people for hundreds of years. Don't think they don't see it... So foreign aid is good, but don't get all patriotic on us.
My use of 'all' was a generalization, not literal. Historically, many people around the world did view the U.S. as a model and a place to aspire to, even as others rightly criticized its actions. My point is that the MAGA slogan claims to be trying restore (something like) that old image, yet their actions only deepen global resentment.
It would be great to see the US genuinely become a beacon of hope again (and atone for their sins), but I'm not holding my breath. Honestly, I've been cheering on other nations to fill that role. I'm not a US nationalist or patriot.
I'm afraid that you aren't seeing just how bad it really is:
There are specific dimensions to human-evil:
narcissism
machiavellianism
sociopathy-psychopathy
nihilism
sadism
systemic-dishonesty
eradication-of-objectivity
eradication-of-considered-reasoning
( and possibly others I haven't found, yet )
The problem is that MAGA is pushing-the-envelope on ALL these dimensions, simultaneously, & less than 1/4 way through Trump's 2nd term, he's got about 1/2 of "Project 2025" implimented.
People don't underrstand: there's a tipping-point" when it becomes totalitarian-dictatorship, & that point is *fast approaching.
The manufacturing of homelessness, combined with the criminalization of homelessness,
The law he got enacted that exempts him & his appointees from court-injunctions & related court actions,
The law he used to de-register Democrat voters, just before the Trump/Harris election,
The law that allows him to simply remove citizenship from everybody he doesn't like, "denaturalization",
There is NO limit to the evil that they will bee allowed to "legally" enforce, shortly.
As I tried explaining to the USMC, some time before Sept 11, 2001, "the USMC obeys any LEGAL order" does NOTHING to protect the USMC's heart/spirit once the law has been rewritten so that murdering babies is now a legal order.
The reason he's throwing-around the National Guard sooo much, now, is simply because it's part of how he's going to be enforcing his removal-of-rights-from-the-"woke", from the non-Republican, from the non-White, obviously too, in his enforcement of his confederate-kingdom..
The only saving-grace is that he'll be waging war on 3 fronts: war against Canada, because it's intolerable to him that he doesn't possess the entire-continent ( that's why he wants Greenland: to seal-off Canada from Europe, to quicken our butchery )
war against the US itself, Civil War Part2,
AND war against the countries to the US's south, basically all of Central America & much of South America,
WHILE picking fights with China whenever he can, offshore ( the navy )..
This is going to be the worst 6-7y that the Americas EVER had, once that tipping-point is crossed.
( & anybody who thinks that Russia isn't going to launch all-out war against Europe once NATO's butchered, is foolish: China'll be backing them, North Korea'll be backing them, & Canada'll be looking like Ukraine does, right now, if not like the way Mariupol did..
& China'll be rampaging Asia, with impunity..
etc.
IOW, regional-conquering will be the only thing the world is orienting-to for literally years, until Putin & Trump implode )
Tipping-points are violations of status-quo, & we're all unconsciously-wired to ignore violations-of-status-quo, unfortunately..
IF you're not with Trump, & you're in the Americas, please consider arming yourself significantly better than you are now..
( I've spent my life trying to find the Himilayan-Buddhist-monastery HOME that my soul remembers, from a previous-incarnation/life..
it is depressing-as-hell to have to say what I just told you, but it is dishonest to even think-of not telling you that.
I expect that there will be a couple hundred million dead in North America by the early 2030's, in Trump's rampaging of our world.
I expect that there will be a similar percentage dead in Europe then, too.
Even if I'm wrong by over-estimating-by-factor-of-2, that'd still be .. unimaginable for us, now, right?
US's Civil War Part2 .. civil wars are BAD: the most intense hatred-enforcement of any kind of war.
I hope that Canada's Carney finds somebody who can think in the proper frame-of-knowing that CAN stand, systematically, against Trump, because as European journalism has identified, he's spineless against Trump in the longer-term, & that isn't strategy: we're deadmeat, if that remains ruling Canada.
Financially, he's got no equal, that I know-of, anywhere near Canadian politics, but .. as a war leader??
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
They've crunched the numbers and know the vast majority of those people will die long before they are entitled to the money. They just won't pay the rest.
Not true. The sign up bonuses go to their next of kin. Russia is legitimately paying it out.
There are entire regions that have regeared their local economies to depend on these payouts. Because it's mostly underdeveloped regions signing up, this has become the most bizarre and macabre investment program in the world. Here's an excellent video on the topic.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
typo: "that's why SO many Russian casualties" .. "do" changes the meaning to incomprehensible, & I suspect that many who don't have English as their primary language might not understand how to fix the meaning..
You're spot-on, of course: this is the point I'd been going to make!
Those mobile-crematoriums that Russia uses, to avoid paying-out the death-amount for fallen soldiers: machiavellianism taken to a degree I'd never have imagined..
I've heard of plenty of cases were people (or their next of kin) didn't get shit. I'll grant that that was from the first 2 years of the war, maybe they got their act together.
dont worry, putin is just grabbing the undesirables, from the poor regions,aka ethnic russians, and not the white russians moscow and st petersberg area.
Considering how cheap life is in Russia, and how expensive recruitment bonuses are, I'm surprised they haven't already switched to conscription which they have a long history of.
They have conscription, but Russia can't send conscripts abroad unless they're at war, and this is a special military operation, not a war. The real question is "Why don't they go to war, and send the conscripts?" And the answer why people don't understand why Russia doesn't is because they think Russia is a single country. That's a very normal thought to have when you live in the west, because say, France or Poland, are a single country.
But Russia is basically two countries. You've got Moscow, which has 20 million people and is slightly bigger than the Netherlands, and Saint Petersburg which has 6 million people but is also somewhat smaller. Those two cities are where the government sits, it's where all the decisions are made, where all the companies are, where all the capital sits and all the investements get made. Moscow has technology, internet, plumbing, subways, etc etc.
And then there's the entire rest of Russia, which you can sorta-kinda view as a massive colonial empire of Moscow. They get to decide nothing, they exist to provide labour for all of Moscow's capital and to have resources that can be exploited. It's where all the GDP comes from, yet they have no money because all that mineral wealth immediately goes back to Moscow.
Declaring war and sending in the conscripts would mean people from Moscow (read: People who actually matter) would get send to war, as opposed to the "colonial troops". Literally nobody in Russia cares about what happens to the 4 million people living in de Federal Republic of Bashkortostan (it's a real place, I promise), but everyone cares what happens to the people in 140.000 people in Kolpino, because it's part of St. Petersburg.
Surely it would be a piece of cake to fudge the laws and come up with some excuse to exempt those two regions from conscription? Not like they care about anyone's established rule of law anyway.
When the US still had conscription, they implemented college wavers so rich and middle class (largely white) kids could avoid serving in Vietnam and only poor kids and minorities had to do the fighting and dying. Now we have an all volunteer military but since we don't have universal healthcare or higher ed, we force our poor to serve in the military if they want those things.
With a new school for "drone commandos," the massive "Cold Start" drone war games, and an ambitious air defense reform, India is rewriting its military playbook amid challenges from Pakistan and China.
Both Sunzi ( Sun Tzu, in the old way of naming him: it means Master Sun ) & Clausewitz would have a bit to say about that..
You aren't going to have military dominance, unless you've significantly out-invested your competitors/opponents.
Pretending that India's competitors/opponents are significantly out-invested by Modi's India .. is a pathetic joke.
< digging >
LMAO
India's next-year budget is around $80B, whereas China's is around $300B.
( that AND the fact that Modi has "bet the farm" on Russia's aiding India against China, when Russia's now an economic-vassal-state of China: they won't lift a finger against their new puppetmasters )
Crossing fast-track citizenship off the books was a key migration-related election campaign promise from Chancellor Merz's CDU. Critics argue that this will deter highly qualified immigrants from coming to Germany.
Too stupid to be like Trump. You've got to be Merz for that. TBF he might be just too stiff and socially inept to be a good copy, but still: who in the world might want to imitate Trump except comedians and Merz?
We could argue which of the two is the bigger asshole, but I would definitely say Trump is the bigger idiot. Maybe I'm a bit too influenced in this decision by his incoherent speeches though, which is currently more an Alzheimer thing, but I have never heard any old recordings that were much better. Merz can speak and cover his lies much better.
The provocation on September 10 triggered a wave of social media messages in Poland, originating from Russian and Belarusian accounts, in part blaming Ukraine or NATO for the incident.
The complete article identifies that the platforms, like Facebook, won't deplatform disinformation, even enemy-of-country disinformation, because it is profitable.
They won't comply.
& .. you will notice that the national-governments therefore are .. capitulating to the platforms, .. not wielding any law, any fines, any jailtime, an ANYthing, to coerce platform-compliance with national-law.
So, the "responsible" authorities are "helpless", then, .. while our countries are intentionally misrailed ( not identical with "derailed", but deliberately put on wrong rails ) by Russia: our governments, due to not having any spine, are "unable" to make that stop.
Enjoy the consequences of that, a few years down the road, when Trump has declared open war on NATO ( using Greenland to seal-off & butcher Canada, for his "continental kingdom" ), ditching Europe to Putin's Russia ( China backed, because of how that'll benefit China once Europe is butchered, in a few years .. "The destruction of the West is the midwife of Chinese dominion" )..
it's fucking inevitable, & it's unfolding as blatently/obviously as it can.
WHEN we have no spine to enforce integrity in our own institutions, AND "our" institutions have no spine to enforce integrity in their domains, AND everybody just accommodates the true-enemy-of-our-viability rewriting our owncountries .. while "wringing their hands", *displacing national-integrity..
it is our population that will be butchered, exactly as the Ukrainian population is currently being butchered because we accommodated Russia's invasion, after promising Ukraine that we'd protect them if Russia ever attacked them, when we got Ukraine to give-up their nukes..
Maybe our-race NEEDS to be butchered from existence, so that our souls might, someday, on some other world, have a speck of motivation to have integrity, then, instead of having any now..
The appeasers-of-Hitler certainly made many others pay for their non-responsibility..
Why would this-generation be any different?
This makes me wonder: when Trump's goons are literally murdering people willy-nilly, anybody who won't insta-grovel to their authority's "lordhood", will the Democrats THEN admit that they aren't going to be taking back the US of A through election??
WHAT THE FSCK DEGREE OF EVIDENCE IS REQUIRED TO CAUSE AUTHORITY TO SOMEHOW BEGIN EMBODYING INTEGRITY??
Infinite?
Species-wide DarwinAward's inevitable, then, & this is our kind's final century.
An organism's immune-system only has actual chance of breaking an infection IF IT IS FIGHTING infection.
If it's accommodating, instead-of fighting, then .. there is ZERO chance of breaking the infection, & the pathogen then OWNS the fate of the organism.
This is true of countries, as well as of individual-organisms.
But still, nobody would dare to help against Russia. If they don't need help -- good for them. I'm interested in more wars involving Russia and its allies.
Ethiopia purchases arms from Russia as well. Russia was supportive to Ethiopia in Tigray. Ethiopia has been a solid ally for Russia in the UN since the the war started. Ethiopia has a good relationship with Russia
Ethiopia has a better relationship with Russia than Eritrea and because, weirdly, Eritrea and Israel have a fairly good relationship, so my friends enemy is not necessarily my enemy, in this case, but a good contact to sell weapons to while I look for money to find my special military operation, and take my skim for you know, war effort. Also noted is that Ethiopia and Israel are fairly good friends, but I believe Israel operates some military out of Eritrea.
However, Russia will flip weapons to Ethiopia and Eritrea and watch them shoot it out. That being said, Ethiopia is the bigger monster when it comes to equipment because of its licensed manufacturing deal for old Soviet hardware, up to large field guns, I think, but is battle fatigued. Eritrea has far greater manpower of highly trained but poorly motivated and poorly equipped soldiers. Null sum game.
Also, they aren't going to fight. Aferwerki has enough problems at home, and his own tenure is at risk. Age has caught up and younger upstarts are sensing blood in the water. So while his avenue is to distract with a ports war, conveniently, it is again, a null sum game.
All hail Somaliland. The new powerbroker and infrastructure operator in the region.
That whole region is impossible to see how it ends up. Ethiopia and Trigray. Ethiopia and Eritrea. Ethiopia and Somolia. Somalia and Puntland and Khatumo. Egypt and Ethiopia. Sudan hanging out in between with their own civil war. Then over time Rwanda is setting themselves up to try and be the Israel and may end up to varying degrees attacking everyone
You have seen the massive amounts of weapons going to Ukraine?
Help is going there. Saying nobody wants to help Ukraine is disingenuous at best, and just a flat lie at, well, not even worst, just normal.
Look, I know that it would have been awesome if Europe would send soldiers but there is this thing where you try not to make things worse. Putting European soldiers there might very well escalate the Ukraine invasion to something we will all regret
You have seen the massive amounts of weapons going to Ukraine?
No, I haven't. But I am an engineer and therefore am capable to count to 100. I know even bigger numbers, so, let's say, 15, doesn't impress me at all. I wouldn't call it "massive".
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said that it would investigate how Tesla’s semi-autonomous driving software handles railroad crossings.
That was Donnys way to scratch Elon's back for helping with the campaign. After the back stabbing and subsequent fall out, I'm sure Elon took all his people out.
WHY THE FUCK ARE PEOPLE STILL EXPECTING THIS GARBAGE TO WORK? Tesla’s “full self driving” crashes have been widely covered. Is it simple ignorance? Are they not aware of the news? Is it stubbornness? Laziness? Thinking that “it won’t happen to me”? Do they sincerely believe Musk’s lies?
I know that victim blaming isn’t the answer, and that’s not what I’m doing. I just want to know what’s going on in their heads.
People don't know about the unreliability of such systems. They also don't know how simple Tesla's autopilot is compared to other systems.
As a person who has used OpenCV before, I would never trust a computer vision system. I maybe could trust LiDAR based systems as those can see 3 dimensionally but that's a big "maybe".
The weirdest part to me is that one apple engineer who died in a tesla crash. I have no idea how an engineer working in a software company could trust that thing
I have no idea how an engineer working in a software company could trust that thing
Because many of us are fucking morons. I had one colleague who was writing the control software for a baseball-throwing machine. Despite being way past the deadline and way over budget, the client asked him to create a special version of the software so the machine could be used with Little League teams. He decided to do his first test of this version on a field with actual Little Leaguers on it, which resulted in a 125 mph knuckleball (no spin at all so incredibly erratic in flight) a foot above a 10-year-old kid's head. Which resulted in the only time in my programming career that I had to physically intervene to prevent a fistfight between two people (my boss and the client).
What's mad is there are self-driving vehicles that do actually seem to work. There is even a few that have enough confidence to remove driving controls. But they use LiDAR, the one technology that musk refuse is to incorporate for some reason.
I think an analogue version would be a taxi. Buses drive set routes I would hope that the self-driving car can go on all roads not just pre-selected ones.
Tesla should be fined and forced to change when saying or responding with "despite its name self driving is not self driving". They continue to lie. With continued consequences. At the cost of others and the public.
Them responding as such is absurd. Them getting away with that even more so.
How is this clearly defective product still on the market?? If any other car manufacturer had "features" that were so consistently causing this much mayhem they would have recalled all vehicles and been held liable.
We don't look at car features in isolation. e.g. seatbelt or airbag could cause injuries too in a crash, but we have them because it's better than not having them.
In the same token self driving doesn't have to be perfect, it just need to be better than humans. I don't know what Tesla's number looks like, just speaking generally.
I hated working for target 20 years ago. They aren't guests, they're customers. It's not a guest experience, it's shopping. And if I don't want to smile, fuck off and quit trying to say I should smile more.
And I'm a guy. I hear women get told they should smile more WAY more often than I did when I worked at target. Those people saying that can fuck all the way off onto a cactus dildo.
It's one German state. Nevertheless, better than none. Sadly, for instance, Munich moved away from Linux to Microsoft in 2017 (end of project limux). Did I mention Microsoft has a location there?
Earlier switches were primarily about cost-savings, so Microsoft would just swoop in with discounts and backroom deal$, or offer discounts to anyone considering copy-catting, isolating the early-adopters.
This case is not about cost but data sovereignty, and it's also a smaller switch (keeping the Windows OS), so we can have hopes for better success.
Well, we have like 3 decades at most of this kind of tech, and really only a couple of generations modern capitalism, so it's a bit tough to say "always" about anything. It would be more accurate, historically, to say that the monarchy always wins - but especially in that case - past performance does not guarantee future returns.
Of course I remember. There is no too big to fail, too.
But that does not mean it's not getting replaced by another one. That's also a pattern. Or maybe the meta game changes, someone else has money and invests and holds a lot of smaller players. Still.
For docker it would be Kubernetes and that's Google.
Lol, I don't know of that's intentional shade but that photo is of my hometown (Lübeck), which is in the state (SH) but not the capital. So they didn't find a photo from capital (Kiel) they that was aesthetically pleasing enough to accompany the article?
This isn’t really newsworthy anymore - European governments are all moving towards digital sovereignty for stuff like this, which makes sense. Microsoft will most likely start offering “host your own” cloud versions of these products soon to try and stop/slow the exodus, as controlling your own data becomes more and more important to governments and companies.
According to the article, it is due to restructuring that has nothing to do with the spite layoffs being used by the Trump administration to punish Democrats for their unwillingness to support a dramatic 2x increase to healthcare expenses for Americans.
AFAIK JPL is part of the University of California, not NASA and I’m pretty sure this isn’t the first round of layoffs at JPL in the last few years.
Edit: It’s Caltech. I misremembered.
Edit 2: People seem to not be understanding what I am saying so I will clarify: JPL - Founded in 1936. NASA - Founded in 1958.
While NASA is the primary sponsor of JPL today its management has always fallen to its original founder, Caltech. Both JPL and Caltech are considered Federal Contractors. The decision to lay people off was made by JPLs management and has nothing to do with the current government shutdown. This is the third round of layoffs at JPL in the last 18 months or so and is largely due to cuts and restructuring to planned missions like the Mars Sample Return.
Find information about employment at JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory), a Federally Funded Research and Development Center funded by NASA, managed by Caltech.
Space mission and science news, images and videos from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), the leading center for robotic exploration of the solar system.
I misremembered, but my point still stands; the decision for layoffs, this being the third round in 18 months, didn’t come from the government it came from JPLs management which isn’t NASA.
of course it does. nasa pays the bills and they are the ones who say "we will hire or fire people, because we do or do not have money". management from caltech says "ok, these are the people who have expertise we need".
you don't think they are giving money to someone and that someone does whatever they want with these money, do you?
That’s literally how think tanks work. Their paychecks come from Caltech not NASA. They answer to the board of governors not NASA. But you also seem to have forgotten the context of the original comment I was replying to.
Thing is, when the economy is already going downhill... You ought to increase government spending instead of reducing it. It puts more money in the economy. More people with jobs also spend more money at businesses that employ people.
Well unfortunately the President of the United States is bad at business and the Republicans are ...Republicans. The only thing that matters to either are rich people.
Oh I know, I'm just fully enjoying the irony of watching the man who was supposed to lower the grocery prices make fewer people be able to afford groceries.
He is a moron to be sure, but crashes like this make opportunities for those with means to gobble up the big stuff cheap. Sure ground beef is expensive as fuck right now but I bet the wagu steak hasn't changed nearly as much. Hell when the economy is going well the rabble want a taste of the good stuff. Better to keep them in their place.
There is an argument to be made that having secure high paying government jobs harms other sectors by taking employees and raising average pay, forcing them to keep up. We aren't anywhere near that being an issue though, but there is a limit where more government jobs can make recovery harder, when other sectors go out of business competing with it and there's nowhere for anyone to go once the government jobs close.
cmnybo
in reply to schizoidman • • •like this
Australis13, wagesj45, fistac0rpse, DaGeek247 e joshg253 like this.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to cmnybo • • •Then 4chan shouldn't do business in the UK by selling 4chan passes there.
4chan should just block UK IPs. They already ban VPN IPs from posting, so obviously they have some infrastructure there to support that.
like this
magnetosphere likes this.
Ilovethebomb
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •like this
fistac0rpse, joshg253 e dhhyfddehhfyy4673 like this.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to Ilovethebomb • • •like this
Skua likes this.
dubyakay
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •like this
dhhyfddehhfyy4673 likes this.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to dubyakay • • •troed
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •like this
dhhyfddehhfyy4673 likes this.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to troed • • •troed
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •9tr6gyp3
in reply to troed • • •troed
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •"allow"
Seems to me as if the people in the UK sign up with an american company.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to troed • • •4chan has not disabled accepting payments from UK residents through their Coinbase portal. Therefore they are allowing UK residents to pay them.
4chan is not geo blocking UK visitors in their Cloudflare portal, so they are allowing UK residents to visit their site.
4chan wants all the benefits of UK business without obeying their laws.
troed
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •4chan isn't in the UK and has no reason to figure out what laws apply there.
When you made this post, did you first check which countries your post ended up in?
9tr6gyp3
in reply to troed • • •4chan agreed to the terms of service agreement here:
coinbase.com/legal/user_agreem…
That means they agree their business can be affected by international regulations.
troed
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •9tr6gyp3
in reply to troed • • •I know, its hard to believe your eyes, but it does say they can be adversely affected by international legislation and regulations if they want to do business there.
They could always opt to use a US-based payment processor that doesn't deal with international payments.
troed
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •9tr6gyp3
in reply to troed • • •LoreSoong
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •like this
fistac0rpse e dhhyfddehhfyy4673 like this.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to LoreSoong • • •Perspectivist
in reply to LoreSoong • • •NiHaDuncan
in reply to Perspectivist • • •9tr6gyp3
in reply to NiHaDuncan • • •NiHaDuncan
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •4Chan doesn’t have their own personal payment processor that they’re responsible for. They’re tied into processors like stripe and accept all payments that make it to them on the US side. So long as it is legal, which is typically the only way that a payment actually goes through as processors refuse the obviously illegal cases like encompassing embargoes. If the UK doesn’t want payments going to 4chan through a processor that operates in their country, it’s on them to stop the payment processor on their end.
The UK knows this, the fines are just one step towards them petitioning processors.
GreenKnight23
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •Imagine for a moment that 4chan is a business that sells alcoholic beverages in the US. Now imagine the UK has instituted prohibition and banned the consumption of alcohol.
now, some enterprising individuals have taken it upon themselves to buy, smuggle, and then sell those beverages inside the UK.
Clearly, the government has intended to ban the consumption of alcohol, not the sale of it.
Now the UK government is trying to shackle hefty fines against an American company for having the "audacity" of selling a product to an individual within the confines of the US.
again, the UK banned the consumption of alcohol, not the sale of. 4Chan isn't forcing UK citizens to drink the alcohol. They are simply selling the product, within their country of origin, to individuals who want to purchase it.
now, do you still think the UK government has a right to fine 4chan or do you think maybe the UK government should elaborate on their prohibition regulations to ensure their citizens are properly "protected"?
like this
fistac0rpse likes this.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to GreenKnight23 • • •Okkkkkay so I'll play your hypothetical game.
So in your scenario here, some enterprising individuals start off by smuggling alcohol into the UK. By definition according to Merriam-Webster, smuggling is: "to import or export secretly contrary to the law and especially without paying duties imposed by law".
According to UK laws, this has the following consequences:
Lets move to the selling of the illegally imported alcohol:
For the sake of your argument, we'll remove the law that says its illegal to sell alcohol to children, I guess? Regardless, it might be some enterprising individuals that are selling it, but they are selling the alcohol in the UK. In UK currency, To UK residents. In the UK. We are getting into possibly exchanging UK currency for US currency, which is a whole new can of worms, but we can save that for later.
Now to your question:
Easy answer is yes. They should be fined for smuggling alcohol into the UK, which is what the current law calls for.
Now hypothetical for you.
Imagine for a moment that the UK has banned looking at alcohol if you are under 18. Doesn't matter if you look at alcohol if you are over the age of 18, but you just can't legally look at alcohol if you are under 18.
Now someone comes along named 4chan and builds a giant building in the UK that has a ton of alcohol inside of it. There isn't anything outside of the building. Its only inside where the alcohol is. They don't have protections in place that prevent anyone under 18 from going inside the building. Anyone can come in and look. You can be 5 years old, or 100 years old. As a matter of fact, tons of people from all over the UK come and visit this building daily, even children.
Now the UK government comes along and says, "Hey 4chan, you need to verify that anyone that goes into your building is at least 18 years old, because if someone under 18 looks at the alcohol in there, thats against the law."
4chan ignores the UK and continues letting anyone inside, not verifying anyone's age. Not only that, but they're actually selling alcohol to children in there, and letting children make their own alcohol as well.
Should the UK be allowed to fine/arrest 4chan until they meet the demands?
GreenKnight23
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •gonna be honest, I didn't read anything past this part.
I didn't read any of it because you clearly didn't read what I said.
here's the part you conveniently forgot and it literally changes the entire argument.
next time you want to argue your point don't employ the use of bad faith tactics and try to argue your point without manufacturing flaws.
9tr6gyp3
in reply to GreenKnight23 • • •LOL okay but you said:
I went ahead and edited it for you so it says enterprising individuals.... which you end up asking about 4chan anyways
GreenKnight23
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •9tr6gyp3
in reply to GreenKnight23 • • •NiHaDuncan
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •9tr6gyp3
in reply to NiHaDuncan • • •then_three_more
in reply to GreenKnight23 • • •Wouldn't it be more akin to those individuals putting the alcohol into 4chan's trucks that are taking other stuff to the UK? (and worse with 4chan's knowledge)
In that case do you think it's unreasonable that the uk government imposes penalties for 4chan refusing to remove the alcohol that they know is there from the trucks.
And then if 4chan then refuses to pay said penalties start to not allow them to bring any trucks into the uk at all?
GreenKnight23
in reply to then_three_more • • •the "trucks" in your example are the users computers/phones.
the highways are the Internet, which is owned and maintained by the UK government after their "gate".
the alcohol is the content.
4chans trucks deliver to the UKs "gate" and the UK user does the rest from there on the UK highways.
if the UK doesn't want the alcohol in their country, they need to stop their citizens from purchasing it and block it from entering their country at their "gate".
this is what any reasonable country would do. they (UK) already do it for actual physical products like potassium bromate, azodicarbonamide, and certain artificial food dyes like Yellow 5 and Yellow 6.
Are they going to sue or fine the companies that manufacture those products? no. They're going to ban the products that use them and then go after the individuals that smuggle them in.
then_three_more
in reply to GreenKnight23 • • •No it's the packets being sent from the 4chan server.
Stopping every single packet (or in the real world truck) to check it isn't feasible, do that and you get 20 mile queues up the m20 (and the digital version of that). Plus any government trying to so it like that would get accused of tax payers money due to the insane amount of resources that would be needed.
Placing the responsibility on the company makes sense, so does issuing penalties for non compliance. The company that has a fine issued against them can of course ignore it if they're set up outside the country that issues the fine. But they should then expect the country issuing the fine to escalate. If they don't pay and don't comply they can expect to have any assets in the uk seized and eventually get blocked from operating entirely. And probably have any executives arrested of they enter the country. Ofcom can't just jump to getting a court order though because they need to be fair and give 4chan a chance to comply if they want to.
The problem with the online safety act is that it exists at all, and that they expect people to use third party authentication services many of which are operating from countries with poor data protection regulations. That said, as iit does exist the logic of saying that companies are the ones responsible for what people access from their servers does make sense.
zecg
in reply to 9tr6gyp3 • • •then_three_more
in reply to cmnybo • • •richardwallass
in reply to cmnybo • • •dreadbeef
in reply to cmnybo • • •lumen
in reply to dreadbeef • • •What? No it doesn’t, not as long as the people responsible don’t step foot in the UK.
If they do - yes they’ll be arrested for having broken UK law.
dreadbeef
in reply to lumen • • •Echo Dot
in reply to dreadbeef • • •You have to obey the law of whatever country you are currently occupying, even if the rule is bad shit crazy, actually especially if the rule is bat shit crazy. There are plenty of people who have done nothing wrong who would be arrested if they step foot in China, but that doesn't really bother anyone because they don't step foot in China.
Also it would be interesting to see what they would even be charged with, since offcom don't really have authority to issue arrest warrants. Ofcom barely have the authority to enforce UK law in the UK. Otherwise the likes of GB news wouldn't exist.
PrettyFlyForAFatGuy
in reply to Echo Dot • • •They're not "occupying" or even operating here. all the servers have been in Texas since 2008. The British gov are attempting to legislate feature implementations for companies that aren't operating in britain. it's ridiculous.
Echo Dot
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •Blisterexe
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •Well, they are operating in britain, their website is accessible in britain and as such the UK can decide whether the website is accessible or not. The uk can't really punish them other than blocking their site if they don't comply, though.
I agree the law is stupid but them not having servers in britain is mostly irrelevant.
RaivoKulli
in reply to cmnybo • • •It's an interesting idea that countries could only fine websites that operate in said country. Could get away with a lot by finding a permissive country to do what would otherwise be illegal and worth of fines.
"Selling user's private information illegally? Buddy, Tuvalo don't care"
troed
in reply to RaivoKulli • • •RaivoKulli
in reply to troed • • •troed
in reply to RaivoKulli • • •RaivoKulli
in reply to troed • • •magic_internet_wizard
in reply to cmnybo • • •KSP Atlas
in reply to magic_internet_wizard • • •Venia Silente
in reply to KSP Atlas • • •Antagnostic
in reply to schizoidman • • •- YouTube
www.youtube.comlike this
wagesj45 likes this.
/home/pineapplelover
in reply to Antagnostic • • •deczzz
in reply to Antagnostic • • •tal
in reply to schizoidman • • •You don't want to be locked in a small cell with 4chan for two years.
pastermil
in reply to tal • • •Sabata
in reply to tal • • •Not again.
pastermil
in reply to schizoidman • • •vodka
in reply to pastermil • • •Arcane2077
in reply to pastermil • • •ImgurRefugee114
in reply to schizoidman • • •FauxLiving
in reply to ImgurRefugee114 • • •pHr34kY
in reply to schizoidman • • •Imagine running a website for 20 years, changing absolutely nothing, and one day you're being targeted because someone else on the other side of the planet changed something at their end.
Tell them to piss off.
They'll come after your phpbb instance next.
CallateCoyote
in reply to pHr34kY • • •anarchyrabbit
in reply to CallateCoyote • • •ABetterTomorrow
in reply to schizoidman • • •nevemsenki
in reply to schizoidman • • •TheJesusaurus
in reply to nevemsenki • • •If they operate in China then it seems legit. If they don't operate in China it's a non issue.
This might be stupid, but the corollary of your statement is that a sovereign nation can't impose laws on foreign business....
That what you want?
nevemsenki
in reply to TheJesusaurus • • •Unironically yes. Otherwise the internet as we know it is very much over, and what we have instead is a mesh of country-nets.
I mean, what is actually "doing business" when it comes a simple web page or a forum for example? Merely existing and being reachable.
theneverfox
in reply to nevemsenki • • •Yeah, and a county could say "you can't do business in our county anymore" and block them
A country can ban dildos, but they don't get to tell a foreign factory they can't make dildos. If an importer orders dildos anyways, that's between the importer and customs. Which in this case the importer is the ISP
gandalf_der_12te
in reply to nevemsenki • • •which, TBH, doesn't seem so bad to me. as an european, i'm personally sick of all the sick (as in, unwell) culture from america swapping over via the internet and poisoning people's minds.
i mean, all the culture war is literally instigated by american capitalists to disrupt society and to disrupt the people's coherence, to make them weaker and therefore easier to exploit.
If it wasn't for continuous exposure to american influence, europe would long have drastic left-wing political reforms, i guess.
nevemsenki
in reply to gandalf_der_12te • • •TheJesusaurus
in reply to TheJesusaurus • • •nevemsenki
in reply to TheJesusaurus • • •pogmommy
in reply to TheJesusaurus • • •TheJesusaurus
in reply to pogmommy • • •Mr. Satan
in reply to TheJesusaurus • • •Yes. You can impose as much laws as you can enforce them. Don't want your citizens to buy anything from me, stop shipments at your border. Want to stop payments, talk to your banks. Want to stop access to my servers, block them at your routers.
Why the fuck should I enforce your rules for you? You made them, you figure out how you will make them work.
you being the UK government, in this case.
TheJesusaurus
in reply to Mr. Satan • • •RaivoKulli
in reply to nevemsenki • • •Echo Dot
in reply to RaivoKulli • • •GDPR can only be enforced if the business wants to continue to do business in Europe. There are lots of non-European businesses that do not enforce GDPR rules but they can't sell products or services in Europe.
But of course 4chan doesn't sell any products or services anywhere, it's not a business, so it's a bit hard to see exactly how this could be enforced.
RaivoKulli
in reply to Echo Dot • • •MajorasTerribleFate
in reply to RaivoKulli • • •RaivoKulli
in reply to MajorasTerribleFate • • •General data protection regulation (GDPR) | EUR-Lex
eur-lex.europa.euMajorasTerribleFate
in reply to RaivoKulli • • •SocialMediaRefugee
in reply to nevemsenki • • •BananaIsABerry
in reply to SocialMediaRefugee • • •SocialMediaRefugee
in reply to BananaIsABerry • • •muusemuuse
in reply to SocialMediaRefugee • • •nucleative
in reply to schizoidman • • •This is a case of stupid laws that still don't understand the internet (35+ years in to wide use, mofos)
If an http GET request initiated from country A traverses routers and wires around the globe to grab some data from a server in country B, then we have to accept that the owners of the server are not "operating in country A" and in fact the user in country A is responsible for import.
If some laws in country A have a problem with this, then they should unplug their internet wires at the border, or at least learn how to use them and/or govern their citizens.
All that is tongue in cheek to say they can fuck right off.
like this
Lippy likes this.
Routhinator
in reply to nucleative • • •Spaz
in reply to nucleative • • •Echo Dot
in reply to Spaz • • •BurgerBaron
in reply to Spaz • • •Echo Dot
in reply to nucleative • • •Yeah it's a stupid law and they were told it wouldn't work by industry experts. But the politicians that were in power when all this was first been decided were Conservatives and therefore arrogant and of the opinion that if they don't like something, it's realities responsibility to reconfigure itself.
Then Labour got in and for some reason implemented the stupid law anyway despite having heard none of the consultations, and of course now it turns out that the consultations told them not to do it. Now I'm sure the industry experts would have been ignored anyway but Labour look really daft now.
They have basically accepted that this law is unworkable and is basically going to be ignored by everyone, but they still have to go through all of the pantomime of trying to enforce it. I'm sure eventually they'll quietly kill it because the whole thing has been such an embarrassment for them.
SocialMediaRefugee
in reply to Echo Dot • • •Which is exactly what they have done with tariffs in the US.
Echo Dot
in reply to SocialMediaRefugee • • •Th US has taken it to step further. Somehow they've managed to convince a significant junk of the population that a tariff is not a tax, and that the tariff is paid by the importing country, even though that's not how tariffs work. They don't require reality to actually do anything, they just require the populace to be mind numbingly stupid. Fortunately, they are.
It's pretty ironic, the United States was founded on the back of unfair taxation, and yet financial literacy is probably lower in the US than it is in any other country in the world.
SocialMediaRefugee
in reply to Echo Dot • • •Aceticon
in reply to Echo Dot • • •I think it's well established by now that this bunch of Labour politicians too are "arrogant and of the opinion that if they don’t like something, it’s realities responsibility to reconfigure itself".
That would amongst other things neatly explain why they went around and implemented the stupid law.
Echo Dot
in reply to Aceticon • • •0x0
in reply to Echo Dot • • •You mean lobbyists?
General_Effort
in reply to nucleative • • •What used to be called The Great Firewall of China. It used to be unthinkable for western countries.
You can't blame this on old people. This is only happening now that the Boomers are on the way out. People who sent international letters or made international phone calls were aware that they were communicating with a different country with different laws. I think we are seeing this now, because now we have people who experience the internet as something happening on their own phone, at their location.
ayyy
in reply to General_Effort • • •Semperverus
in reply to ayyy • • •gandalf_der_12te
in reply to Semperverus • • •Retirement is when it's about time to get into big politics. Most politicians on higher levels are 60+ y.o.
Semperverus
in reply to gandalf_der_12te • • •SkyezOpen
in reply to Semperverus • • •Tell that to the corpse of Diane Feinstein that they puppeted weekend at Bernie's style for months after she died.
I'm barely exaggerating
justadudeingear
in reply to ayyy • • •General_Effort
in reply to ayyy • • •UK cabinet is mainly GenXers. I didn't count exactly, but Boomers still seem to outnumber Millennials. Definitely on the way out, though.
I wouldn't mind the politicians from 30 years ago, who stayed away from this bullshit.
Rhonda Sandtits
in reply to General_Effort • • •The UK didn't ban leaded petrol until 1999 meaning most millenials will suffer from the boomer-loony disease as they were poisoned during their childhood.
Let's also not forget that fuel for light aircraft still contains lead :/
ParadoxSeahorse
in reply to Rhonda Sandtits • • •gandalf_der_12te
in reply to General_Effort • • •Funnily enough the CIA (yes, the CIA) was largely involved in keeping the internet a free and open space for all, heck they even contributed encryption algorithms to keep data private and such ...
The reason why the free internet existed for so long was because it was a big ideological project for the US. (the internet is the space of all ideas and as such represents the platonic/christian concept of heaven). It's only now ending because it's served its purpose. The people have exchanged ideas worldwide, and that only needs to happen twice, similarly to how you can only infect yourself with the same virus once (because the second infection does way less impact), you can only infect yourself with the same idea once. So, once the worldwide ideas are exchanged, the internet serves very little purpose anymore.
skisnow
in reply to nucleative • • •If 4chan make revenue by advertising UK goods and services to UK users, then they are very much operating in the UK. It's not reasonable to make the argument that you should be able to do business with a country and opt out of its laws simply by running the physical servers abroad. We don't tolerate it for wire fraud or CSAM, but nobody's rushing out to defend the sovereign rights of child abusers and scammers.
I don't agree with the Online Safety Act on its own terms, but this is a dud of an argument.
AwesomeLowlander
in reply to skisnow • • •With wire fraud and csam, the activity is illegal in the host country as well as the target country, which is not the case here.
By your logic, any website with advertising is operating in EVERY country worldwide.
skisnow
in reply to AwesomeLowlander • • •No. Every ad platform out there has the advertiser choose what region to advertise in. Nobody wants to pay to advertise in countries where they don’t sell their products. Likewise websites have the option not to serve countries they don’t want to comply with the laws of, and indeed many do this exact thing.
The whole argument being presented is being intentionally naive about both the technology and the law. Y’all are arguing based on how you WANT the world to be rather than how it is.
AwesomeLowlander
in reply to skisnow • • •skisnow
in reply to AwesomeLowlander • • •Again you’re just factually wrong. The website operator has a wide degree of control over what can appear on their site in the admin panel. They even have the choice of which platform to go with if they don’t. And even if they didn’t, it’s still an argument that relies on “everyone does it ergo it must be ok”, which wouldn’t stand on its own terms either.
To repeat, I'm not supporting the Online Safety Act, but this whole argument seems to rely on the fictional notion that innocent website operators don't know where their data packets are being sent, which hasn't been true since the 1990s.
AwesomeLowlander
in reply to skisnow • • •Given that's how the entire Internet works, it does stand on its own terms. The UK isn't influential enough to force the entire Internet to follow suit. They can take it or leave it.
Flax
in reply to nucleative • • •Bronzebeard
in reply to schizoidman • • •Harvey656
in reply to Bronzebeard • • •Bronzebeard
in reply to Harvey656 • • •At least a little?
According to this article they pull in 230 million a year. For a shitty forum that looks like it's run on 1995 tech
Harvey656
in reply to Bronzebeard • • •Buckshot
in reply to Bronzebeard • • •yetAnotherUser
in reply to schizoidman • • •SocialMediaRefugee
in reply to schizoidman • • •MeThisGuy
in reply to SocialMediaRefugee • • •MajorasTerribleFate
in reply to MeThisGuy • • •> be me
> mfw
The defense rests.
Bgugi
in reply to MeThisGuy • • •Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In
in reply to SocialMediaRefugee • • •Gemini24601
in reply to schizoidman • • •0x0
in reply to Gemini24601 • • •WALLACE
in reply to Gemini24601 • • •It works the same way they can fine domestic businesses: Pay up or we'll stop you from doing any more business in this country.
In the context of a website like 4chan that means pay the fine or get blocked by every UK based ISP.
Tattorack
in reply to WALLACE • • •Oh no! That one country out of all the other ones will be the biggest loss ever!
Anyway, about these things called VPNs.
FishFace
in reply to Tattorack • • •I think this sentiment is common but misses some important things. First: the UK is a big market of internet users, so losing it is not insignificant. Second: most people will not bother with a VPN because it's annoying or costs money. Third: from the UK's perspective, banning non-compliant sites is a good thing.
Recognising all this is important, because it's part of resisting such censorious laws.
Tattorack
in reply to FishFace • • •The population of internet users is tiny compared to the total population of internet users in the Western world.
Nothing great or significant is lost.
FishFace
in reply to Tattorack • • •Tattorack
in reply to FishFace • • •I just dint think any of it matters. UK is a big market for Internet users... Yes, like any other developed country.
It is only the 4th largest country for 4chan... Which isn't even in the top 3.
The UK not having access to 4chan is of no consequence, and the kinds of people that still hang out there would probably know their way around a VPN.
There is no further thing that's worth addressing.
CatDogL0ver
in reply to Gemini24601 • • •The argument 4chan uses is laughable. "Freedom of speech of every American?" Tere is no such protection in the US right now.
No one is watching the news? Trump is killing freedom of speech. Anyone dares to advocate equality is getting fired or estorcised. All rainbow, trans or minority rights signs are being eliminated. Our rainbow sidewalk in my city was repainted. Diversity programs are dismantled. Any minority names program is being renamed. Less black people are being hired in the white house than ever.
Even now som states require you to prove your identity before your can log into Internet.
American invention? American right? Lol.
ArmchairAce1944
in reply to CatDogL0ver • • •ArmchairAce1944
in reply to CatDogL0ver • • •Ultraword
in reply to schizoidman • • •PrettyFlyForAFatGuy
in reply to schizoidman • • •British government fines an American company, based in America, for serving data from American servers that was compliant with American law.
This whole law is complete overreach. It's like banning a book and then getting mad at the author when one of your citizens buys one on holiday and brings it back with them
Gal
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •Natanael
in reply to Gal • • •ArmchairAce1944
in reply to Gal • • •madjo
in reply to Gal • • •𝙲𝚑𝚊𝚒𝚛𝚖𝚊𝚗 𝙼𝚎𝚘𝚠
in reply to Gal • • •ArmchairAce1944
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •I think Iran should fine the UK just as much for allowing the Satanic verses to be sold since that novel are banned in Iran.
Any argument they give is the same argument why the 4chan shit is laughable.
tal
in reply to ArmchairAce1944 • • •You probably don't want Iran to have jurisdiction over your dot-com.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_…
Frankly, 4chan users or operators would probably have violated some of those, were they under jurisdiction of Iranian law.
overview of the use of capital punishment in Iran
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)PrettyFlyForAFatGuy
in reply to tal • • •tal
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •General_Effort
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •BurgerBaron
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •nagaram
in reply to BurgerBaron • • •Its probably a parent company situation.
Lots of corpo structures are just large parent companies that actually just own a bunch of smaller companies so that the parent company gets the profits while the smaller companies make the risky products and can be bankrupted at any minute.
The company I work for does that. We just bought a couple companies that were competitors in a risky but profitable market. The full idea is that if one company gets sued to oblivion, we let that company die, move all the employees and customers to the backup company, and call it a day.
Capitalism baby!
DarkAri
in reply to PrettyFlyForAFatGuy • • •🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮
in reply to schizoidman • • •I wanna see how a website would be sent to jail.
biggeoff
in reply to 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮 • • •like this
jsheradin likes this.
Chaotic Entropy
in reply to biggeoff • • •sqgl
in reply to Chaotic Entropy • • •sleen
in reply to 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮 • • •Cybersteel
in reply to 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮 • • •ArmchairAce1944
in reply to Cybersteel • • •Which they would laugh at. Even the Chinese government would laugh at such a request. It isn't something that is considered universally a crime, like robbery and murder, but the type of shit they are asking for is so fucking unprecedented and unreasonable it's stupid.
It would be like if the UK demanded that France immediately extradite all legal handgun owners in France (where handguns are legal) because it is a crime to possess one in Great Britain and therefore they are criminals. Makes no sense.
MrSulu
in reply to schizoidman • • •FishFace
in reply to MrSulu • • •ArmchairAce1944
in reply to schizoidman • • •GreenBottles
in reply to schizoidman • • •ArmchairAce1944
in reply to GreenBottles • • •Damn fucking straight. I hope it starts an privacy movement so big they realize that all the laws passed since 2000 against terrorism were abject failures and repeal all of them.
Canada is trying to pass major surveillance shit on par with the patriot act on steroids and effectively nullify the need for warrants, all in the name of 'strong borders' and anti terrorism even though it literally gives many US owned and operated companies full and complete access to digital information on Canadians, ironically weakening borders in every way.
And for what? What is the terrorism threat? Al-Qaeda was a always a joke, and the fact that 9/11 happened was far more due to a monumental failure of all intelligence services combined and not due to a lack of resources. Terrorist schemes have been thwarted in the past without the need for extensive surveillance... and most plots are still thwarted primarily by informants and insiders speaking to authorities. The whole 'we need to be super proactive ' has yielded shit results.
Most of the stuff that they claim was 'prevented proactively ' was literally entrapment. They found some mentally ill and/or lonely people who would have done nothing on their own, but ended up being goaded into stupid crap when undercover agents flirted with them, encouraged them, and even offered weapons and explosives for them to use, and if they agreed... well, that's when they nabbed them. No terrorism would have occurred if agents didn't do shit.
Have you ever wondered why so many people are highly distrustful of people talking about doing violent shit? Fed posting? Its because agents have such a long ass history of doing that that you cannot tell who is and who isn't a Fed.
Rooty
in reply to schizoidman • • •nuxi
in reply to schizoidman • • •Balldowern
in reply to schizoidman • • •BilboBargains
in reply to schizoidman • • •Offcom has been drinking, came home in a blackout and committed domestic abuse of 4chan. Does Offcom even internet? Alternative plot twist, Offcom is trolling 4chan.
I wanna say that Offcom is doing a good job and trying to protect British people in good faith but I feel like they are being used as a cudgel by the British ruling class to advance an anachronistic agenda. Don't forget, they fired their expert drugs advisor for telling them that MDMA is comparable to horse riding in terms of safety. They want certain things to be true, regardless of the scientific accuracy.
Jacqui Smith slaps down drugs adviser for comparing ecstasy to horse riding
Guardian staff reporter (The Guardian)wabasso
in reply to BilboBargains • • •gallopingsnail
in reply to wabasso • • •BilboBargains
in reply to wabasso • • •nutsack
in reply to schizoidman • • •nagaram
in reply to nutsack • • •Probably why they didn't do it in the first place.
They barely pay for moderation. Who is going to pay for that survey? And also why would they? Obviously most of the people on that site are under 18. That's when I used it.
What other demographic clicks the horny ads they run?
nutsack
in reply to schizoidman • • •