> afaict abolishing MW will likely lead to most people who are currently on MW getting pay cuts. With some delay, it will then lead to some currently-unemployed people finding work at even lower wages.

No, because those people are paid that minimum wage because their skills make them give as much back as value. So no it doesnt work that way, nor is there any evidence to suggest it does.

> How many "some" are, I can't tell, so I don't think there's a clear argument either way.

The chart I provided shows exactly what that number is. A 50% increase in minimum wage would result in 50% increase in the number of people with no high school diploma being unemployed. You dont need to guess you have a peer reviewed study telling you. The relationship is linear, so when you double minimum wage you double the number of people who dont have a job (among those without diplomas). For those with a high school diploma the increase is only slightly smaller.

@aiono @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor

@freemo @Mr_Teatime @rootfake
> No, because those people are paid that minimum wage because their skills make them give as much back as value. So no it doesnt work that way, nor is there any evidence to suggest it does.

A quick search led me to this
journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.11…

@freemo @aiono @rootfake
I'm careful to not praise tje German system too much because it sure has issues -- but the "taxes are immoral and companies must behave like psychopaths" argument is rubbing me the *very* wrong way.

I'm happy to pay my taxes, even if I think the current government's priorities are completely backwards. I'd be even happier if I knew that a larger part of it went towards being humane (instead of weapons and shit, and subsidies for super-rich idiots and psychopath companies whi are doing more than well enough for themselves)

In your world, everyone is forced to work fulltime just to stay miserable. In my world, you can say no to a bad job offer or quit an abusive work contract and go home without fear. You've no idea how good that feels.

> "taxes are immoral and companies must behave like psychopaths"

Considering no one said anything of the sort I would imagine it would bother you, figments of your imagination tend to do that.

When I argued education should be free and cover all levels of education and other forms of skill training (trade schools, educational degrees from bachnlors to PhD, etc) what part of that assumes I am against taxes when surely taxes would need to pay for this.

What I am arguing is instead of acting like true psychopaths and expecting companies to just be so altruistic they just give people money to live off of that is more than they actually earn for the company, that we actually make these people marketable so companies dont **need** to be charities, that they will pay them a living wage because the skills they bring the company is actually worth that living wage. Likewise reducing the number of people in low-paid jobs, thus decreasing the supply and likewise raising their wages out of need.

All of this would still need to be payed for with taxes, but instead of just handing out free money and causing actual **proven** harm to the very people you want to help Im suggesting actually helping them. No one said taxes are immoral, but **wasting** taxes to actually harm the people you are trying to help is.

@aiono @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor

@freemo
hoookay...

So, where we agree is that education should be free.

I just noticed you're living in the Netherlands. So how are you dealing with the taxes here when you found the German system too expensive? I've studied in Germany (no fees, plus government support for expenses!), worked there for some years, then the UK, and now the Netherlands. The UK is certainly much more social than the US (but eroding quickly, which is why we left), but everywhere employers are expected to care for their employees -- and that is right and proper for me because the only peoe who want to go back to Dickens' times are those who don't mind getting rich by making others miserable. And those are not my friends.

@aiono @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor

In dickens time did they have free education and generous welfare system? Stop with the nonsense rhetoric, **no one** here is suggesting we abolish worker protections and minimum wage and call it a day, so the fact you keep harping ont he same loaded language is getting tiring.

What I am proposing is a system of free education and job training **to the extreme** and a good welfare system to help people during the transition. Nothing remotely dickens about it, its about the responsbility being ont he government to create healthy economies and to be the "charity" and not companies, which is how it should be.

As to your question, I have lived in many places from egypt to the USA to the Netherlands, in fact I've lived in most major countries at this point, or at least most regions (europe, asia, americas, etc).I am not against taxes, as I stated before I'm against wasted taxes.. wasting it on minimum wage when it makes the problem **worse** rather than investing it in welfare and education that actually fixes the problem. In the netherlands they actually use their taxes for actual good, it covers (partly) education, it provides decent welfare systems, and that money is spent well on infrastructure and social works. Compare that to the USA where most of the taxes are completely wasted, I dont mind spending the extra money if i see those benefits actually being realized. Now they still waste a **lot**, and their system of minimum wage isnt helping. But overall they arent wasting all of our money on military or walls, so by in large it is spent on tangible things, more so than in the USA at least.

@aiono @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor

@freemo
Alright ... I think I'll call it a day.
I can't claim to understand your idea because I still sense a lot of contradictions, and the idea that enough education could remove unemployment or low-pay jobs (is that what you say? not sure!) sounds questionable, to say the least.

The correlation between mimimum wage and unemployment seems to be real (under what circumstances?), but I would not trust it to the extent you do. Everything else ... sorry, I find it hard to figure out what you even think without getting sidetracked, triggered or plain confused. You're probably not an idiot but I don't really want to invest the time and energy to figure it all out now.

Have a good day, and thanks for your patience.

@aiono @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor

No worries, disengaging, and recognizing your own tendency to get triggered and thus perhaps not having a fruitful conversation is a very matrue choice, and I respect that. Should you feel you want to understand my stance at some point you are always welcome back.

@aiono @rootfake @MikeDunnAuthor