Fediverse! I’ve been building a bridge to Bluesky, and they’re turning on federation soon, which means my bridge will be available soon too. You’ll be able to follow people on Bluesky from here in the fediverse, and vice versa.
Bluesky is a broad network with lots of worthwhile people and conversations! I hope you’ll give it a chance. Only fully public content is bridged, not followers-only or otherwise private posts or profiles. Still, if you want to opt out, I understand. Feel free to DM me at @snarfed@indieweb.social (different account than this one), email me, file a GitHub issue, or put #nobridge in your profile bio.
A number of us have thought about this for a while now, we’re committed to making it work well for everyone, and we’re very open to feedback. Thanks for listening. Feel free to share broadly.
cc @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
Re-introducing Bridgy Fed
Hi! I’m Ryan. I’ve been building social network bridges and related tools for over 12 years, including Bridgy, which connects personal web sites and blogs to centralized social networks…snarfed.org
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in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Luca Sironi likes this.
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in reply to mimo • • •Re-introducing Bridgy Fed
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in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Luca Sironi likes this.
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David B. Himself
in reply to Cloudbreaker • • •How is that for your privacy?
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SuperMoosie
in reply to JP • • •The difference is it is a commercial network. We have not signed up to the TOS AND he is copying everything with out permission from the user.
We did sign up just to the fediverse, not to make content for a billionaire.
If people want to post elsewhere they can sign up for the TOS.
It needs to be OPT IN If people want to use it.
@zatnosk @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Kay Ohtie
in reply to SuperMoosie • • •Considering each instance can have its own terms of service, this is a legal space that is largely untested currently. My thoughts are that the legality will boil down to "follow each instance terms", but it's an amazingly complex thing even there. And I say this even as an instance owner who thinks that bridgy should be explicitly opt-in either per-post, per-user, or per-instance.
Per-instance, to me, kind of makes the MOST sense for having an 'opt-out' tag in the bio -- each instance owner is then making their own users aware of the policy and can give them advance notice if they don't wish to be included. Just having a global "we can have your information even if you're unaware of it" policy is half the problem of the current tech industry snarfing up damn everything as if it's theirs to use, causing all the LLM garbage issues today.
Hell, the fact I'd have to end my wifi SSID in _at least_ two weird tag things, and one of them MUST be the last one, to avoid my wifi SSID, BSSID, and location getting snarfed by mapping cars (google, MS, etc) is just part of this. I have to take up limited characters in my bio for each service I want no part in? I have to make my SSID ugly just so a corp won't use info I didn't consent to them using? While I like the idea of being able to follow friends of mine who are on AT instead of fedi, and refuse to use fedi, it's not worth it being so open; I always figured there would be an opt-in mechanism, not yet more opt-out stuff.
C'mon, @activitypubblueskybridge, haven't you seen how many times people offering only opt-out are shown the distaste for this? =/ 'bridge' or not, it's still technically a specialized service, it's not transparent just because things are duplicated both ways.
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eishiya
in reply to JP • • •The difference is that when you post to the Fediverse, you expect your post to be federated within the Fediverse via its native means. One consents to this type of content propagation when they make posts on Fedi.
Bridging is something beyond that, and is not something one consents to when making posts on the Fediverse.
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the roamer
in reply to Zatty • • •reshared this
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Tim Erickson, @stpaultim
in reply to the roamer • • •This argument about consent is fictional. Anyone can create a server on the Fediverse and everyone on the Fediverse is conntected, without their consent.
Bluesky could create a Mastodon server, any commercial entity can create a server and everyone is linked without consent.
The only way to preserve consent on the Fediverse, is to create a server that is not linked to other servers, in which case you don't have to worry about this bridge.
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Tim Erickson, @stpaultim
in reply to Tim Erickson, @stpaultim • • •like this
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the roamer
in reply to Tim Erickson, @stpaultim • • •The BS bridge links to a commercial platform outside the Fediverse, rather than to other instances within the Fediverse. People sign up to their Fediverse instance in order to be connected within the Fediverse. Some people in the Fediverse also want to be connected to commercial external platforms, but many very definitely don't. They joined the Fediverse precisely because they want to be free from those platforms. That's where the "opt-out" mechanism violates consent.
#consent
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Ben Thompson 🐕
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Tim Erickson, @stpaultim
in reply to Ben Thompson 🐕 • • •The developer has made clear that this bridge is only possible if Blue Sky turns on Federation and made clear it will be a two way bridge.
I'll leave it at that.
snarfed.org/2023-11-27_re-intr…
Re-introducing Bridgy Fed
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chris@strafpla.net
in reply to the roamer • • •However, blueky could easily become one of the too big to block instances on the fediverse, but with a different culture concerning moderation (and archiving), and that may become a problem.
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Sam
in reply to Zatty • • •Please shut the fuck up.
Mastodon sends your posts to thousands of other servers without your consent. That is how ActivityPub works. This is doing absolutely nothing different.
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Markus
in reply to Sam • • •Bluesky isn't simply "another server"
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Världens bästa Kille™
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Tim Erickson, @stpaultim
in reply to Sam • • •I'm in agreement with your arguments. But, I'm fully against the tone and the aggressiveness of your responses.
It's nice that Mastodon has such nice features to block users such as yourself.
Your account is an opt-out account. No one was asked to consent to your hostility, it's just part of the network, however everyone has the option to block it (opt out).
I expect, I'll be taking advantage of that feature.
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computer toucher ._.
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Blake Leonard
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •I'm a big fan of bridges and this is the big one I've been eagerly waiting for. I'll probably add it to my wizard soon after it's available. Once the moderation issues get sorted out, I firmly believe that in the end, this will be a net positive for both networks, since Bluesky users will be able to follow and engage with the vibrant and growing communities and services here, and we'll be able to follow and engage with shitposters from Bluesky.
The moderation issues should be sorted out promptly, and I'm a little disappointed that you're going to open it up with little consideration about mod tooling, especially considering the lists and lists of known problematic users on Bluesky, from mere crypto-shills and scammers to bigots, transphobes, racists, fascists, and genocide supporters. I don't have any way to find or use Bluesky's mod lists from here so there needs to be some other way.
Plus, I'm sure Bluesky users want a way to mass-mute and mass-block bridged users, maybe even from particular instances, especially considering our ongoing tone police and reply guy problems, which have driven numerous people from here to there. I feel like this part is imminently solvable with automatically-populated moderation list(s), though.
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SuperMoosie
in reply to Blake Leonard • • •Where have we signed up for the bluesky TOS?
What gives this guy the right to copy our content we make for the fediverse available on a commercial network?
No one has consented for this.
Bridges need to be opt in.
@fediversenews @fedidevs @activitypubblueskybridge @snarfed.org @snarfed
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FinchHaven sfba
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Opt-in only, or I #DomainBlock
What is that again?
bsky.brid.gy?
So noted...
I want *nothing* to do with #Bluesky
#NoBridge has been added to my profile
cc @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews@venera.social
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unlofl [Promoted Toot]
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •"Moderate people, not code"
You do not have the resources to moderate everything that will flow over this bridge, so you shouldn't do it. Your project will force this work on other instance mods.
Opt-out is unethical because people aren't aware they're being opted-in, but also because it makes this bigger and dumps more work on other instances.
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unlofl [Promoted Toot]
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Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Luca Sironi likes this.
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Noxy 🐾🏳️🌈
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River :therian:
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Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
in reply to Noxy 🐾🏳️🌈 • • •Luca Sironi likes this.
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Pusher Of Pixels (old account)
in reply to Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲 • • •"I have essentially zero issue with a public post of mine being visible to any and all"
YOU speak for only YOU. Yet you seem happy to subject others to your comfort zone.
Do you not see why that's a significant problem?
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Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
in reply to Pusher Of Pixels (old account) • • •Bridgy Fed
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Pusher Of Pixels (old account)
in reply to Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲 • • •So you're supposition is people can choose how widely seen their content is?
That's kinda ironic considering this is entirely without choice for the vast majority who won't even know about it.
OptOut is a terrible idea on every angle.
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Chris Trottier
in reply to Pusher Of Pixels (old account) • • •@AS4gBPS9axYI2RYbEe.snarfed.org@snarfed.org Opt-out is the default of the Fediverse. As a server admin, I don’t actively choose who federates with me. Federation happens as soon as my server “sees” another.
There is a way to change this default towards opt-in, and that’s by whitelisting. Most servers, including universeodon.com, don’t choose to go this route because it severely affects their visibility.
Another problem is that, even if you whitelist, once your content federates onto another server, it is beyond your control. It exists elsewhere. A malicious party who is on another server may interact with it in a distasteful, insensitive, perhaps illegal manner.
The way some servers have gotten around this is by turning off federation entirely. That is an option, but probably not one that most people on the Fediverse want.
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tallship
in reply to Chris Trottier • • •Yes indeed, Thanks for making that clarification for all of the clueless people posting here who hitherto believed otherwise, as if they ever had it that way.
They'll complain and threaten to go somewhere else, and of course, they're welcome to that option as well, but in the end...
"“Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
#tallship #FOSS #Fediverse #bridges #innovation #fools
⛵️
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Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
in reply to Pusher Of Pixels (old account) • • •uh yeah, that's the whole point. This bridge acts just like a regular Fedi user and follows all the same rules. If the bridge can't see your posts, it can't do anything with them - and you have full control over how visible your posts are. You also have the option of adding a hashtag to your profile, defederating from the domain the bridge lives on, or contacting the dev for a manual opt-out.
Plus, as far as I can tell, absolutely none of this is intended to happen in a vacuum. The documentation I linked earlier explains that users who are followed via the bridge still get a notification that they were followed, just like they were followed by a regular Fedi account. You'll see the BlueSky user names of each user that follows you through the bridge, and you'll be able to block individual users from seeing your account through the bridge if you so choose (in addition to the options above).
You'll have the same control over who can see your content that you would with any other Fedi user.
I'd strongly recommend reading the documentation to get a better understanding of how this is intended to work when it goes live.
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chris@strafpla.net
in reply to Pusher Of Pixels (old account) • • •@baralheia @noxypaws @snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ θΔ ⋐ & ∞
in reply to chris@strafpla.net • • •reshared this
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chris@strafpla.net
in reply to 🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ θΔ ⋐ & ∞ • • •Do you think that people who don’t know about the bridge would give a fsck about it - taking into account that their public posts are visible on instances of lemmy, friendica, pleroma,… and they don’t know about it?
Isn’t the way this bridge to bluesky is implemented exactly the way that another service on the fedi should be implemented?
Is it because bluesky is a commercial instance?
@pixelpusher220 @baralheia @noxypaws @snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ θΔ ⋐ & ∞
in reply to chris@strafpla.net • • •reshared this
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chris@strafpla.net
in reply to 🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ θΔ ⋐ & ∞ • • •So what’ the difference between the fedi
and bridged bluesky?
Just the protocol? What parts/variants?
If I ask those very angry posters in this thread, can they explain to me what activitypub is?
What about services that use OStatus? Are they fedi? And then most posts are accessible using rss and some are integrating this into their blogs.
Is wordpress an ok member of the fediverse?
@pixelpusher220 @baralheia @noxypaws @snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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chris@strafpla.net
in reply to chris@strafpla.net • • •where does it have to be implemented? Can a service use a different protocol for internal communication and communicate to external instances using AP? Can this part run as a separate server? What’s the difference to a bridge?
No, this drama is not about the protocol.
“The Fedi” means something(s) else and we need to understand this to solve the drama.
@pixelpusher220 @baralheia @noxypaws @snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
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hazelnot
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Cătă
in reply to hazelnot • • •Luca Sironi likes this.
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Cătă
in reply to hazelnot • • •@hazelnot :yell: you give consent when you publicly post something online. In fact, guess what, I can see your profile and whatever you publicly post without even logging in to your instance. How? I use a web browser.
Did you also give your consent to an obscure 3rd party app to display your content inside it? No. Let's just ban them all then, just like Xitter and Reddshit did, or like Meta/Faceshit did in the 1st place.
Oh, it's so great when we have stuff to help us reach content, from friends, from people we follow, but God forbid someone else reaches our content from other parts of the internet. Those that want that are just techbros.
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Jess
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •if me or other trans* individuals, or other marginalized groups (many of whom I'm sure will *never* see your post with the genuinely shit opt-out option) are harassed or otherwise receive uninvited abuse and commentary through your bridge, are you prepared to face legal challenges brought against you?
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Arataka
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Luca Sironi likes this.
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Lorrie W 🇺🇸 🫂 🇺🇦
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •I want to OPT OUT please.
#NoBridge for me.
This should have been an OPT-IN only
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zetta june, burrito seeker
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Adam ♿
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Dorothea Salo
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Congratulations! You convinced me to block your entire domain!
Well done, you exploitative git.
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in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Delta Sierra
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Such a service should be opt-in only, for the handful of folks who DO want their content used to generate traffic for Bluesky.
As I'm not one of those people, I am notifying you that I am opting out. It'd be nice if that request was honored, but realistically I know it won't be.
So fuck you.
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Jess
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •if me or other trans* individuals, or other marginalized groups (many of whom I'm sure will *never* see your post with the genuinely shit opt-out option) are harassed or otherwise receive uninvited abuse and commentary through your bridge, are you prepared to face legal challenges brought against you?
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Johannes Hentschel
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •@activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Shlee fucked around and
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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maegul
in reply to Shlee fucked around and • • •eh ... as with Threads + fedipact, there's likely a spectrum where the louder voices can mask the "middle of the road" voices, for better or worse. Anti-Bridge-Pact?
What exactly is the difference between this and a new instance? I'm genuinely unclear?
Like, do kbin instances respect search indexing preferences? What about other commercial instances like moth?
Is it the relative size of bksy?
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James Harris
in reply to maegul • • •like this
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maegul
in reply to James Harris • • •Yea, for me, the whole "I want a relatively anti-social social media" motive of many on masto seems like something that requires better institutional/infrastructural devices rather than merely distributing it amongst defed, personal blocks and outcries over opt-in/opt-out.
At some point, it seems, some people just want a different system than what this is. Like a closed FOSS Discord.
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maegul
in reply to maegul • • •Which, TBC, is all good by me.
It's just that the amount of noise and "drama" necessary to maintain this constant vigilance against what a decentralised social media protocol naturally allows seems like a potential dead end with diminishing returns.
EG, many on bsky that those here would like to talk to have probably left here because of this "noise" however much they align with the values here.
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Jon Quass
in reply to maegul • • •I just checked and Mastodon does have a whitelist mode instances can use of they really want control over their data.
"This mode is intended for private use only, such as in academic institutions or internal company networks, as it effectively creates a data silo, which is contrary to Mastodon's mission of decentralization. This setting was known as WHITELIST_MODE prior to 3.1."
docs.joinmastodon.org/admin/co….
@jbwharris @shlee @snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
Configuring your environment
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Shanie MyrsTear
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •A lot of people are upset about this but ya'll know, straight up, if your feed is live & people not auth'd can read your server feed you *don't have privacy*. Mastodon and the fediverse in general never said anything about expectations of privacy.
Snarfed here could have been a bad actor and never told you anything and as far as I know it's in the clear.
If you don't like it, block the bridge and move on.
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chris@strafpla.net
in reply to Shanie MyrsTear • • •reshared this
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Shanie MyrsTear
in reply to chris@strafpla.net • • •Lucky for you they gave admins an option of what you want done. Good actor.
A bad actor, for example, is likely already gathering your servers data and training it on a LLM as you have no power over THEIR server; you have *volunteered that data by federating*. Your ToS means nothing. Oops.
Someone truly worried about privacy would not be federating at all.
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dogzilla
in reply to Shanie MyrsTear • • •reshared this
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Shanie MyrsTear
in reply to dogzilla • • •that’s extremely dependent on what kind of privacy violation, but privacy concerns interfere with basic functionality when the admin(s) of your instance get(s) lazy, really.
If you have active Admins and you can bring your concerns to their table, or they pay attention to #mastoadmin and do their due diligence, you will have a “safer” server.
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dogzilla
in reply to Shanie MyrsTear • • •Unlike every other social media, you can just spin up your own instance and be your own admin. Unless you’re paying your admin, you have zero right to demand or expect anything from them and it’s on *you* as a user to whom this (or any other issue) is important to follow that stuff.
If you don’t agree with how your admin runs their instance, fire up your own
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Shanie MyrsTear
in reply to dogzilla • • •I never said anything about “demanding” anything from anyone. If you have a shit admin though, or believe they are not healthy for you, yes, feel free to change servers. Only weakness is you “lose” your previous posts but whatever.
But if you are an admin and don’t at least sit and listen to your server, why are you an admin of social media?
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🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ θΔ ⋐ & ∞
in reply to Shanie MyrsTear • • •reshared this
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Shanie MyrsTear
in reply to 🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ θΔ ⋐ & ∞ • • •How to take a point and not at all understand what it means for $500, Alex.
It’s possible to do bad thing, so take control of your server and prevent it in an active way.
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🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ θΔ ⋐ & ∞
in reply to Shanie MyrsTear • • •reshared this
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SuperMoosie
Unknown parent • • •There is no opt in.
He is sending all your posts across to a commercial site, with out anyones permission.
@snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Kinky Kobolds
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •This should be opt-in, not opt-out. BlueSky doesn't use ActivityPub and, therefore, the tools users have to protect themselves on Mastodon are incompatible with your bridge.
I'll be talking with the other moderators and admins of furry-focused servers to inform them of this new risk to marginalized users and I'm confident they'll be taking appropriate actions to keep our communities safe.
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Sara
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •you should not be setting this up as opt-out
I didn't consent to be part of your experiment, and if I wanted an account on some other network I'd have one
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in reply to Sara • • •reshared this
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in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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wet forest moon folklorist
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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chronohart
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Krista, Darth Moose Shark
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Wow. This is just such an epically bad call. I can't imagine reading the room this badly.
ANY privacy advocate you talk to - and I really suggest you talk to a few - will give you the burning side-eye for thinking you have the right to force folks to opt out.
And you should definitely look into the fact that you may be violating the GDPR. Someone else certainly will.
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Sam
in reply to SuperMoosie • • •reshared this
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Michael T. Richter
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •@snarfed.org@snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
> … we're very open to feedback.
Here's your feedback you fuckwit: get fucked.
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Victoria Fierce
in reply to Michael T. Richter • • •reshared this
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Anders Borch
in reply to Michael T. Richter • • •you have to appreciate someone so openly breaking their instance rules about proper conduct.
It makes it easier to report and block them.
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tallship
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Ryan,
How refreshing!
Another bridging mechanism to extend the reach and interoperability with other Fediverse protocols in the #DeSoc space is most welcome, and from the limited analysis I've been able to perform so far this is a novel approach to what some point in the future will find other Fediverse platforms incorporating in their network stacks.
So far, we've got seamless nostr interoperability to add to the other fine protocols such as Diaspora, ZOT, Nomad, OStatus, ActivityPub, and others in the mix. You might also wish to take a look at the repo for Minds to see how they've made seamless integration between the ActivityPub and nostr portions of the #Fediverse as well, and oh, pay no mind to the infantile and disparaging remarks that some small minded folks in this thread have exhibited - they are free to *defederate themselves from the Fediverse at any time.
We've been following withe some enthusiasm your project in the Fediverse-City community and it would be a pleasure to have you participate there. Your insight into the open and public aspects of Fediverse traffic in the #DeSoc world is a testament to the innovation and evolution that is possible in obviating the proprietary, privacy disrespecting, deprecated monolothic silo networks that have sowed so much acrimony and subjugation over the very people whom they seek to quantify as their business products.
You're performing a great service here, feel free to block any miscreants in this thread who don't understand the definition of public.
Also, might I suggest that instead of offering a `#nobridge keyword index, you think about offering a solution as a FEP here?:
codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/
There are a lot of Fediverse platform developers I'm sure that you'll find welcoming, encouraging, and willing to offer assistance in formulating solutions to silence the adolescent juvenile mindsets that have been berating you in this thread for your selfless commitment to the well being of us all.
In the future, the Fediverse that we perceive and interact within will become its own heterogeneous superset of networking protocols to facilitate effortless communications between individual parties regardless of which portions of the Fediverse and their associated protocols implemented. Just like #OStatus has been largely supplanted by ActivityPub, and #ZOT has been superseded by #Nomad, the ActivityPub portion of the Fediverse will also eventually be deprecated and replaced by other stacks that will emerge from the ether of creativity. In the meantime, we'll be bridging between the various protocol stacks, and Bridgy-fed is one of those tools that serves to make that a reality 😀
Thank you again, for your selfless contribution to #DeSoc and the Fediverse. it's a fantastic achievement that will serve to benefit many in both the #ATP and #ActivityPub portions of the Fediverse!
#tallship #bridgy #FOSS #Fediverse #DeSoc #innovation
⛵️
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Ryan Barrett
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Thank you all for the feedback, both good and bad. I knew I’d hear some pushback that this should be opt in instead of opt out, and I obviously did. I’ve also had some useful conversations and ideas on how to bridge (ahem 😄) that gap and make opt in more realistically usable, along with a few interesting compromise points between opt in and opt out. I’m grateful to everyone today who engaged and talked constructively and offered those new techniques. It’s very possible that this will land somewhere along that spectrum other than fully opt out.
I had plenty of work to do already before launch, and now I have a number of other important ideas to explore too. That’s great! I really do appreciate it. I’ll definitely check back in well before this launches.
https://snarfed.org/2024-02-12_52106
snarfed.orgWren Reilly
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •The GDPR applies to US-based companies that offer services to people in EU Member States. It applies to not-for-profit organisations. It will apply to you. Figure this out before launch.
Besides, consent matters even if you don't get fined for ignoring it.
tallship
Unknown parent • • •Johannes, There isn't one - they're talking out of their ass.
They're just making noise and emotionally distressed to discover that this is how the #Fediverse currently works, and always has worked - and it's not just the #ActivityPub portions of the Fediverse, or even the Fediverse - it's the entire #Internet...
"If you affect a public post, you have no expectation of privacy".
For those who still feel some sense of having been offended, I welcome them to unplug their computers and toss their iPhones and Androids into the trash. That's really their only option, and they'll come to that realization some day, maybe, and it is of no consequence for anyone else in the world if they don't.
#tallship #FOSS #networking #privacy #ignorance
⛵️
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tallship
Unknown parent • • •Yes, we do try to respect the Creative Commons licenses - it's a great thing.
And statistically, studies have revealed that we also do our very best to respect the wishes of publishers who rebuke and refuse to allow their works in a distribution channel where items are DRM encoded.
People should have more faith in the intentions of folks trying to do good, methinks 😀
There will always be bad actors
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Franc Mac
in reply to Ryan Barrett • •Hi @Ryan Barrett
as a Friendica user I already have the possibility to connect to the world of Bluesky, but I'm really happy that you are creating a useful tool for all other users of the fediverse!
Bluesky is a project with many critical issues and with volumes that can be problematic to manage for the instances of the Fediverse, but it is objectively a very interesting environment that is attracting the best of the users who had remained on Twitter but who unfortunately had not managed to settle into the architecture of the Fediverse.
Every project designed to create bridges deserves to be respected and supported.
For this I thank you!
@Ryan Barrett
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Herr Günni alt
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •@activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Franc Mac
Unknown parent • •@jakob 🇦🇹 ✅
I am also an administrator of Friendica and for this very reason I know that I cannot ask the developers of the other social networks in the Fediverse to develop special connection bridges with other social networks.
In fact, Friendica is a software that was born "hyperconnected by design": today it supports Bluesky and Tumbir and I remind you that Friendica also supported Facebook and Twitter, at least until these social networks removed support for their APIs!
For this reason you shouldn't worry about the bridges that are about to be built: the nice thing about bridges is that they connect to other places, but in case of danger they can be blown up.
@Ryan Barrett @Ryan Barrett
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Mastodon•ART 🎨 Curator
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •You can go ahead and opt out all of mastodon.art until your bridge is FULLY opt-in.
You've been here since 2017? Long enough to have seen enough entitled techbros think they can claim some kind of ownership over people's data here and use it without consent, and get railed for it.
Opt out is not consent. Fuck off.
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Anders Borch
in reply to Mastodon•ART 🎨 Curator • • •You may want to reconsider your "Fuck off" comment while on mastodon.art:
mastodon.art/about/more#code-o…
Mastodon.ART
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PhantaNews ✅
in reply to Anders Borch • • •reshared this
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to Franc Mac • • •Franc Mac likes this.
Tim Erickson, @stpaultim
in reply to Sam • • •There is nothing to prevent a commercial organization from setting up a Mastodon server, in fact I believe that there are already examples of that.
So, there is no protection on Mastodon now for sharing your content with commercial services.
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George Saich
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Tim Erickson, @stpaultim
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Thanks for your work on this valuable feature for the Fediverse AND for your transparency and willingness to listen to the feedback of the community.
Please, don't let the loudest and most hostile voices discourage you.
Clearly, we all need to do better at communicating how the Fediverse works and setting realistic expectations about privacy on this network.
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Löwe (inactive)
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •Luca Sironi likes this.
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Andre
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •If you'd like to use our content, how about paying us for it?
Or at least consider the copyright position of each post/account rather than assuming what we produce is free for you to re-use.
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Luca Sironi
in reply to Andre • • •Andre, you know, this public post you just wrote, has been temporarily cached by my pleroma server. I wonder if you consider that i'm using your content by simply answering you.
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Andre
in reply to Luca Sironi • • •That would be using the content as intended. In the same way that allowing a browser to cache a web page doesn't entitle the browser use to then republish that content under their own domain.
Similarly, owning and using a DVR doesn't grant one the right to sell copies of a TV show.
I can borrow a book from a library, but that doesn't entitle me to photocopy it, rebind it and sell it to another library.
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Luca Sironi
in reply to Andre • • •so i'm preemptively good person/ server because i use activitypub but you don't trust bluesky the company, because they are using that other AT protocol.
But once they opened their protocol, it's not just their company using it, other no profit actors can use it as well.
There are mastodon servers owned by company already.
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Andre
in reply to Luca Sironi • • •I'm not anti-corporate at all. I have no problem with a large entity implementing native activitypub and interacting natively with the community.
I do not see bridges/gateways that republish content as that at all.
Further, I understand there's a difference between offering someone a beer and having them walk into my house and help themselves to the fridge.
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chronohart
in reply to Luca Sironi • • •It's not a matter of trust; it's a matter of choice. I (and many others) made the *choice* to not touch bluesky and now that choice is being taken away from everyone, by default, unless the individual user happens to know this is coming and hoe to stop it.
When the alternative is to flip this "simple" opt-out to an *equally simple* opt-in, the decision to make it opt-out is a decision to take choice away from your demographic in order to artificially enhance the user uptake of your product.
@PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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in reply to chronohart • • •reshared this
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •What if I block #BS (just love the acronym 😉) and the BS #bridge but one or more of my followers who ARE "bridged" boost or link my content? Will it appear on #BS?
@chronohart @luca @PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Jamie Booth
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •This is a really good question and I don't know the answer. This is the kinda of thing I think we should be asking about the bridge.
@snarfed do you know the answer to this?
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Oliphantom Menace
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •reshared this
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Jamie Booth
in reply to Oliphantom Menace • • •I'm wondering if that means there may be a functional difference between blocking the bridge vs adding the #nobridge tag?
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •An excellent question.
boothcomputing.social/@jamie/1…
@oliphant @snarfed @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @fedidevs @fediversenews @chronohart @activitypubblueskybridge
Jamie Booth
2024-02-14 23:38:15
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Jamie Booth
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •reshared this
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in reply to Jamie Booth • • •reshared this
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to Hartmut Neubauer • • •(1/2)
I guess I can answer this question now: once s.o. quotes or boosts your content (= new post) you lose control of your content and cannot prevent it from being shared.
I'd say, unless you limited the post to your followers, however if one of your followers were on the #Friendica or #Hubzilla platform, they'd still be able to quote your post and then you'd still lose control,...
@jamie @chronohart @luca @PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •(2/2)
...correct @shiri? (I hope I have understood everything correctly that all of you had such great patience to explain to me today.
//
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol
Not exactly accurate. Anyone can copy and paste your words into the post box and quote you. Some platforms make it easier than others though.
Also, Mastodon is rumored to be including quote posts soon, so even on Mastodon, people will be able to quote you.
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •Copy and paste is possible, anywhere, always, yes.
Difference: copy & paste will not leave a trail to your original post, a link will.
#Mastodon was supposed to have quote posts last summer. Then @Gargron sent a lengthy explanation that resources had to be recomitted to fix backend features. Since, I haven't heard anyhting new regarding this, but I have not searched for it either.
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol
Actually, it can. I can manually type your handle and what you said and it will reference you. Just mentioning someone's handle such as
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Hartmut Neubauer
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •Of course, you are right regarding the issue of boosting content. So I would like to intervene a little bit earlier.
If, e.g., Babsi on Bluesky follows Mary on Mastodon, Mary already has given her consent to interact with BS via the Bridge. But now Freddie, another fediverse user who has NOT given this consent, answers to Mary's post. Question: Can Babsi read Freddie's comments?
->
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Hartmut Neubauer
in reply to Hartmut Neubauer • • •Yes, but the "like", "share" and "answer" buttons are hidden or disabled for Babsi; furthermore Freddie's fediverse address ("@freddiemiller@friendica.xyz") is hidden so that it is not easy for Babsi to mention him. Perhaps it is even possible to prevent textwise selection and copying. But even if copy & paste would be possible, as @HistoPol mentioned, no trail would be left. ->
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Hartmut Neubauer
in reply to Hartmut Neubauer • • •3rd: to display and allow all. But this might be difficult and a contradiction to that what Freddie has agreed to.
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Hartmut Neubauer
in reply to Hartmut Neubauer • • •reshared this
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to Hartmut Neubauer • • •Sounds öike an excellent solution
We need to beef up moderation!--We're going to be inundated by people with a completely different (net) sozialization and #netiquette:
mastodon.social/@HistoPol/1106…
@jamie @chronohart @luca @PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews @shiri @snarfed.org
HistoPol (@HistoPol@mastodon.social)
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chronohart
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •If you are an ActivityPub user that wishes to connect with bsky, you will likely find information about this bridge, assuming it isn't an immediate failure, as soon as you search the web for a method to connect ActivityPub to bsky.
@luca @PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Jamie Booth
in reply to chronohart • • •reshared this
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chronohart
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •What about people that came to ActivityPub specifically because people that were harassing them are not here? This bridge makes it just that much easier for abusers to find their victims again because all they have to do is try a remembered Twitter handle to see if they get a hit through the bridge.
Do you disagree that this sort of abuse can happen?
@luca @PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Jamie Booth
in reply to chronohart • • •No, but they could also create an AP account and harass the person. This bridge doesn't make that any more or less likely. You still have the same tools to block a user even if they are over the bridge.
I think there are a lot of positives to connect people who landed on different platforms. The possibility of harassment is really a more global Internet problem not AP/BS/Threads specific.
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chronohart
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •You're confusing "possible" with "likely". Yes, it is absolutely *possible* for an abuser to join AP in order to find their victim, but it's less *likely* because that is an additional barrier.
On the other hand, if the abuser joins BS because they prefer that network and the only way to find their victim is to join AP, that will be enough of a barrier for many abusers to give up, making it less *likely* for the abuse to happen.
I agree that there are a lot of positives to connecting folks across networks *when they actively want to do so*, but it shouldn't be foised on people that already actively chose to join AP *instead* of BS.
@luca @PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Jamie Booth
in reply to chronohart • • •I don't believe the choice of network matters that much. I think the harasser is more likely to go that extra step. If not, then a simple AP block solves that problem and that's a minor cost to enable better communication between people.
If this conversation around Bridgy Fed proves anything it's that we need more, less hostile communication between people.
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Ubergeek
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •reshared this
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Hartmut Neubauer
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •@chronohart @luca @PCOWandre @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Jamie Booth
in reply to Hartmut Neubauer • • •That takes a lot of time, and as someone in IT, most people take the defaults and are SHOCKED to learn some features exist. 😁
Having this behave like the rest of the fediverse accelerates the awareness and usefulness of the bridge.
You can more rapidly achieve the goal of allowing people to connect and converse. That is after all why the fediverse exists. The rest of this is semantics.
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Hartmut Neubauer
in reply to Jamie Booth • • •Anyway. Before the new bridge service starts, I would strongly recommend to deal with European data protection laws for they are stronger in the EU than elsewhere.
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in reply to Hartmut Neubauer • • •reshared this
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Joshix
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Ryan Barrett
in reply to Joshix • • •I'm happy to opt you out manually, as I mentioned, you don't have to change your bio.
Joshix
2024-02-12 21:06:54
:baba_yaseen: :agenderFlag: :transgenderFlag:
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •@snarfed.org@fed.brid.gy I think you do not – or perhaps deliberately do not – understand the concept of “informed consent”. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have good intentions here. The road to hell is paved with those, and this is going to be another slab.
You are also assuming that people who do not want this will somehow be aware that this is happening, find your blog post (that nobody will ever read) and then realise they should put a hashtag in their bio to remove themselves. That’s not really an “opt-out” because how will anyone know this is happening? Even if a hundred people boost your primary post, that is only a small selection of all fediverse users, let alone instances that even know.
That means there is no way that any given user will even know they can opt-out of something that they do not even know is scraping them. How can you moderate user behaivour when you do not even know this is happening in the first place?
Especially since this means our posts will be on BlueSky, without any recourse for us to remove them from BlueSky because we do not have a consent agreement with BlueSky.
This is also highly illegal under the GDPR, which applies in the EEA and UK, which means you are breaking the law of 30+ nations at the same time. So not only are you just oblivious to the concept of “hey, I don’t like my posts being on BlueSky”, you are also oblivious to your legal requirements as a data handler.
Krista, Darth Moose Shark
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •"Moderate people, not code" fails to learn from the simple fact that technology is not, and has never been, neutral.
You have to do both.
Nice catchphrase, but completely meaningless.
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in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Snowshadow 🇨🇦
in reply to Allen • • •Who would want to deal with an organization that has the audacity to pull this stunt!
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Allen
in reply to Snowshadow 🇨🇦 • • •reshared this
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Snowshadow 🇨🇦
in reply to Allen • • •The Arrogance!!
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Proxima Centauri
in reply to Allen • • •Mastodon federates by default to all new instances. Bluesky Bridge is only a new instance.
Your problem is with Mastodon, not with this bridge.
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Allen
in reply to Proxima Centauri • • •Which is why I asked @Gargron to opt out.
And, being ok with seeing several problems in one scenario, I also don’t like being opted into something I didn’t ask for.
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user8e8f87e
in reply to Allen • • •reshared this
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Allen
in reply to user8e8f87e • • •reshared this
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Snowshadow 🇨🇦
in reply to user8e8f87e • • •reshared this
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chris@strafpla.net
in reply to user8e8f87e • • •While my instinctive reaction was “leave us alone” I didn’t find a definition for “us” and I don’t think that the angry people have.
My conclusion is that the bridge is *exactly* what the rest of the #fedi is. All the drama is stupid.
Shun it for size or lack of moderation, not for existing.
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dogzilla
in reply to chris@strafpla.net • • •reshared this
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user8e8f87e
in reply to dogzilla • • •Yes. Implement the AP protocol and you are part of it; then anybody can decide to block you. That’s how it works. I really hope @snarfed will just implement it.
(Nice profile picture btw! 🖤❤️)
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Snowshadow 🇨🇦
in reply to Proxima Centauri • • •What irritates me is that I left social media for quite a period of time b/c I was fed up with the nonsense going on in corp. owned social media platforms. So I found out about fediverse and now threads is here and bluesky.
That's fine...I just don't want to see any of it or interact with those instances and I have blocked them...I don't want that toxic element in my TL.
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FeralRobots
Unknown parent • • •How do defederation & account level domain blocks prevent some commercial entity from setting up a server & syndicating via the activitypub protocol?
@stpaultim @sam @SuperMoosie @snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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FeralRobots
Unknown parent • • •@snarfed.org @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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Jon Quass
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •@activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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zeitverschreib [mastodon]
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •I trust that you will change OptOut to OptIn before your bridge goes online.
Just to make sure, I hereby prohibit the bridging of any information from this instance to BlueSky.
Furthermore, what are your plans for posts with more than 300 characters? I hope that you are not planning to forward incomplete posts to Bluesky, possibly destroying their meaning.
#nobridge
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Joana de Castro Arnaud
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •I have no interest of connecting into Bluesky, and I'm offended by your assumption that me, and most people, would be interested (opt-out instead of opt-in).
I call for #fediblock of bsky.brid.gy, and I'm blocking you. Thank you for listening.
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Ugly Bag of Mostly Water
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •#nobridge #idontconsent #fuckinvasivetechbros
seahorse
in reply to Ugly Bag of Mostly Water • • •reshared this
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Ugly Bag of Mostly Water
Unknown parent • • •My admin took care of it.
I do not consider a bridge to bluesky or anything owned by a scumbag like dorsey to be "passive." I consider it to be the first step to #enshittification.
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Johanna, CanCon variant
Unknown parent • • •Shiri that’s the most apt analogy I’ve found so far! May I appropriate that? I find myself sometimes trying to explain fediverse concepts to outsiders.
I usually resort to the villages-of-many-small-unique-buildngs vs. one-single-monolithic-high-rise allegory.
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Jon (now at neuromatch.social)
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Golda
Unknown parent • • •could you block individual fediverse users from bluesky?
i'm not sure on fediverse if we currently can block individual users effectively anyway from this direction?
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Carlota Lacumi Appreciator
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Ugly Bag of Mostly Water
Unknown parent • • •you wasted your time defining passive and active, I could not care any less.
The definition I understand for enshittification is: "the pattern of decreasing quality of online platforms that act as two-sided markets."
Using a little knowledge and just a little bit of basic reasoning, I expect bluesky to only decrease the quality (as in, enshittify) of the mastodon experience.
More words more words more words
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eishiya
Unknown parent • • •My problem isn't so much with federating with Bluesky, but with the opt-out mechanisms this bridge offers. They are all non-standard (not part of either protocol), with the exception of instance-level blocks. If user-level blocks (e.g. me personally blocking the bridge domain) works, then I'm less bothered, but AFAIK OP hasn't responded to that query.
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eishiya
Unknown parent • • •This is a good point, and I should know better than to conflate AP services with the whole Fediverse.
After I made that post, I did think about how this is different from federating with, say, Diaspora, which I personally don't have a problem with. I think the difference is that Bluesky is a corporate product that offers no reason to assume good faith. Same deal with Threads, which uses AP.
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Golda
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Fern Woodsson 🌿
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Ubergeek
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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eishiya
Unknown parent • • •I think hashtags are a poor mechanism. Bio space is often limited, and bios are intended to be read mainly by humans - people want them to look nice and not be full of hashtags like nobridge, noai, nobot, etc.
I think if there's no protocol-level opt-out possible, the next best thing would be to provide a low-spoon way to opt-out, such as via a form. "Contact me on socials or open an issue", however well-intentioned, comes off as requesting more effort than is reasonable for many folks.
Qazm
in reply to Golda • • •reshared this
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Qazm
Unknown parent • • •Yeah.
Each PDS publishes its local users' block lists (and changes to that should be part of its outbound AT firehose), so the bridge can send blocks to Bsky. On the fedi side, it should notice them at least through authorised fetch, but there's probably some activity pushed for changes there too.
The main "issue" is that it's a push vs. pull and collation boundary, so the bridge must bookkeep this info locally and can't just translate volatile network requests on demand.
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Ugly Bag of Mostly Water
Unknown parent • • •Oi, how about unwelcome assholes that feel the need to unwantedly splain things?
Hold this mute, since you don't take hints
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Qazm
in reply to Qazm • • •An interesting aspect of blocks on Bsky is that they're non-destructive, so they don't actually cut follow-relationships (but essentially fully suspend them) and are pretty reversible. I think that's an implementation detail though and neither AT nor AP really prescribe this one way or another.
Non-destructive blocks are a bit nicer with shared blocklists, since that means less "spiky" computing and that block lists can't do as much damage if they become unreliable.
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Hazelnoot
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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jeremiah
Unknown parent • • •Sure, but this isn't bridging to another Fediverse server.
I have tools within Mastodon to deal with other ActivityPub servers without talking to admins. This isn't that. This is bridging to corporate networks which is what many of us are explicitly trying to avoid.
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Kinky Kobolds
Unknown parent • • •I know that public posting means it's readable to anyone on the Internet who finds it. But as long as it's on Mastodon, I still have controls to edit and remove things as necessary. My account being mirrored to another service without my consent removes the ability to control my content.
And besides, the right to reproduce a work belongs to a copyright holder. All it takes is one person who can afford to lawyer up and this becomes a prohibitively expensive lesson in copyright law.
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Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸
in reply to Kinky Kobolds • • •reshared this
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DJ Sundog
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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C.Synthare
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Allen
Unknown parent • • •Am I understanding correctly that you think it’s arrogant to simply ask an instance moderator a question, while not threatening to burn the village down?
It’s cool that people are interested. Where there’s one side, there’s another. The point we’re trying to make is this should be OptIn BECAUSE it’s created by a private entity, that’s all. It’s not an outrageous take.
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to Allen • • •@Allen
Out of the over 46,000 independently operated servers on the fediverse, how many are run by private entities? I don't know but I am guessing that it is more than 1.
At least with Bluesky and Threads, it is easy to block. But I am guessing that it would be nearly impossible to figure out which of the 46,000 ActivityPub-enabled servers are commercial and which are not.
And Threads will be connecting to ActivityPub natively. And so will WordPress. Both will bring in millions of users.
I respect people's choice to block whomever they want, but the ActivityPub part of the fediverse already has commercial servers in it. Bluesky would just be one more, which you are free to block.
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Daisy Doo & TuxieGirl Betty
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Tim Chambers
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Tim Chambers
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •reshared this
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David B. Himself
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •This was my feeling when the Threads freakout happened last summer and it has been confirmed since yesterday.
A lot of Mastodon users don't understand the first thing about the Fediverse and federation.
And it's concerning when some of those people are Mastodon admins.
#Mastodon#Fediverse#Federation#Consent#Privacy#BlueSky#Threads
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Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Evan Minto
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Johannes Hentschel
Unknown parent • • •@snarfed.org
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Miles
in reply to Kinky Kobolds • • •I hear you on the distrust of BlueSky. I think it's also important to remember that a lot of these same issues apply to other Mastadon or ActivityPub servers as well.
Mastodon instances honor edits to posts as they want to present the most up-to-date information, but I could see easily imagine an instance presenting a history of edits; that's something we wouldn't really know unless we started looking around the internet.
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chronohart
Unknown parent • • •There are several reasons people are complaining. One good reason I've seen is that this will expose users to a social media ecosystem that they *explicitly* chose to stay away from for their own personal safety. This would be kind of similar to someone creating a new system to forcibly connect your server to one that your admin already blocked due to its members constantly harassing folks on your server.
Just because you can't imagine this being a problem in your own life, that doesn't mean the problems other people have should be ignored.
You can tell the developer doesn't give a shit what people actually want because he stated, in almost these exact words, if people got the warning about this bridge that an opt in would provide, no one would want to use it. Or "my product will be so unlikable, the only way people will use it is if they don't know it's there".
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Hazelnoot
Unknown parent • • •That's exactly my point, though. I've opted into the fediverse, not BlueSky or Twitter or Nostr or anything else that's been bridged before.
Qazm
Unknown parent • • •The bridge can't really filter in this direction, since afaik AT firehose subscriptions are anonymous. Rather, it's Eta's PDS that enforces the bridged block. Delta's instance should also stop sending posts to the bridge, as AP does not use a firehose, but only if there are no other (not-blocked) bridged Bsky followers.
A meaningful desync happens only when the block is rescinded: The bridge may have to automatically re-follow Delta as Eta to restore consistency, since I don't think you can 'remove a follower' on AT.
What happens with a follow in the other direction depends on whether there are separate block and unfollow activities generated by Mastodon. If yes, then no desync happens and Delta('s software) can choose whether they still follow Eta after the block is gone. If blocking does imply unfollowing in AP, then the bridge would have to translate AP blocks into AT block-and-unfollow.
Delta would then not follow Eta after the block is gone, unless Delta('s instance) re-follows Eta explicitly.
Maybe there's some inconsistency detection and cleanup scheme built into one or both of the protocols, too, in which case the bridge should make use of that where possible. I'm not aware of such a mechanism, though.
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Qazm
in reply to Qazm • • •If the bridge forgets about the block somehow, then the follow may be restored on the AT side if Eta's PDS pulls Delta's AT repository from the bridge to refresh/catch up after a disconnect and doesn't see the block, yes.
The bridge can probe whether Delta blocks Eta over AP at least if Delta's instance requires Authorized Fetch, so when possible, it should probably do that at a low frequency to keep its records straight.
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JP
Unknown parent • • •(Disculpe, estoy aprendiendo español!) ¿Quieres "bridge" a Bluesky con tecnologías de asistencia para invidentes?
(Excuse me, I’m learning Spanish!) you want to “bridge” with Bluesky with assistive technologies for the blind?
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Mastodon•ART 🎨 Curator
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Csepp 🌢
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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ric is writing a blog
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Ubergeek
Unknown parent • • •Ubergeek
Unknown parent • • •chronohart
Unknown parent • • •If it's so fantastically easy to just drop a hashtag in your bio to block the bridge, why can't that method be used to *join* the bridge instead? We should be operating from a consent-first model. Folks already chose to avoid bluesky *by joining a network that isn't bluesky* and now this bridge is going to force them to actively reinforce that decision.
That's assuming they even know this bridge exists in the first place! As much discussion as there is about this thing right now, there are and always will be folks that don't know anything about the bridge in time to prevent it from touching them. This is going to be yet another complication that folks have to consider when they join the fediverse, which is already criticised for being very complicated for new users.
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Greg Walker
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •You have this totally the wrong way round and are not respecting user privacy. If you're making big changes like this the default should be opted out, not opted in with a choice to opt out.
Don't be a dick like Facebook et.al do the right thing from the start.
Also we Europeans have stronger data protection laws and I suspect you're breaking them.
#respectuserprivacy
#GDPR
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Bennett
Unknown parent • • •Hey Shari, most bridged services I've used are transparent about the bridge existing. I'm apart of a community that bridges IRC, Matrix, and Discord. This is instantly transpatent regardless of protocol or platform. This is usually how I've seen them work in social communities.
A lot of folks like this space because it's insular and allows them to attempt to control their reach, additionally the culture in many spaces here is heavily consent based.
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Bennett
in reply to Bennett • • •Do you genuinely believe that the main reason folks do not like this is because they don't understand what a bridge is? Same question applies to Apub/Masto. I suspect it's because folks here want to be asked if XYZ is fine or not, not because of a technical misunderstanding. Generally moderators help ensure the culture of consent is followed.
I feel you misunderstand where the folks you're replying to are coming from.
Andre
Unknown parent • • •No, I'm upset because this is a private beer party and you gatecrashed and you're handing the beer to your shady friends in the back alley.
I get your mindset. If you get touch it, it's yours. The mindset that sees nothing wrong with ripping people's writings and republishing them. Nothing wrong with helping yourself to any photograph you see on the internet and using it for whatever purpose you see fit. Scrubbing the author's names off and feeding them into your content farm.
You are not invited to my party.
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Hazelnoot
Unknown parent • • •respectfully, I still disagree. Those networks are entirely separate from the one that we're currently on (ActivityPub). The communities are different, the servers are different, the software is different, even the protocol is different. It's disingenuous to consider them all the same when there's literally no relation.
Side note, but that actually does exist. I once encountered a Mastodon instance that has been patched to automatically suspend any instance running Pleroma. I also know someone who uses a script to detect and block Soapbox instances. Not saying I support that, of course, but it's definitely a thing that some people do here.
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Fell
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Jamie Booth
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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chronohart
Unknown parent • • •Oh *FUCK* you. You do not get to tell people the harm they experienced and the safety they now have is *imaginary*. Wow. There's no help for you. We're done.
@snarfed.org
Ubergeek
Unknown parent • • •so... It slurps content from one network, into another, without consent from at least one party, correct?
Because I never consented to being tracked by bsky and used in their LLM and advertising data...
Baral'heia Stormdancer ΘΔ🐲
Unknown parent • • •Robur
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •@aeris you may be interested in this.
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Jigme Datse
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Jamie Booth
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Jamie Booth
Unknown parent • • •My guess is it won't have any way to know. But I don't know if BS has a bot tag like Mastodon.
I would also say not all bots are bad. You can have bots that report traffic or weather. Governments have bots for distributing information.
I feel like a lot of the responses to this have been reactions to the worst possible scenario. That rarely happens. Reality is somewhere in the middle.
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Mark Gardner
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Jasdemi :fediverse:
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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F4GRX Sébastien
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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soc
in reply to Ryan Barrett • • •reshared this
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Allen
Unknown parent • • •I had messaged @snarfed.org to ask about opting out and Ryan couldn’t have been any more respectful. He’s also looking at a way to make it opt in (github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/…)
I apologized for being part of the heat and look forward to supporting Ryan’s work when possible.
Opt-out is a terrible default and should be reconsidered · Issue #835 · snarfed/bridgy-fed
GitHubFranc Mac likes this.
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Macumba Macaca
in reply to Allen • • •reshared this
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Allen
in reply to Macumba Macaca • • •It is indeed, but that’s what happens when passionate people collide in a new-ish environment. We’re all trying to find a way to get what we want, and hopefully fair compromises can be had for any of these challenges.
Wishing you a beautiful day!
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Tony Hoyle
in reply to chronohart • • •One thing that occurs to me is the bluesky TOS:
"By sharing User Content through Bluesky Social, you grant us permission to: <lots of stuff>"
An opt out bridge simply can't obey that.. they don't have rights to grant permission to mastodon posts they don't own. Opt in they can have a TOS with similar wording that says you agree to allow that stuff to happen.
1/2
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Tony Hoyle
in reply to Tony Hoyle • • •(Some of that is solvable by people licensing their posts under CC for example, but there's no common mechanism for it yet.. and it's not certain whether BS would accept that as complying).
F4GRX Sébastien
Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •#Bluesky #Block
Very concerning, indeed.
How would I go about this?
Would I need to block any and all friendica and hubzillla instances?
"you should be concerned of the thousands of instances like mine (Friendica and Hubzilla) ...boost your post, then it'll be copied over to Bluesky with no actual connection to you in the network, so your blocks will not apply and you will have no control over the post afterwards."
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •"...Friendica and Hubzilla) that will natively support Bluesky. If we boost your post, then it'll be copied over to Bluesky with no actual connection to you in the network,..."
Besser another question, as so far, I had been in favor of #Friendica;
Does this mean if I were 2 use these 2 platforms, I could never prevent my posts / content from being seen on #Elmo's PayPal platform?!?
Or is there really no difference?
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol It is my understanding that boosts won't be passed on if you block the bridge or add
#nobridgeto your profile because the boost still has you as the original author. This would be true no matter which software a person is using.But if someone quotes you (on any platform, not just the ones mentioned) or takes a screenshot of your post, that would not be blocked. And people can do that now without the bridge. Windows comes with software that allows people to take screenshots. So do phones. And most other fediverse platforms other than Mastodon allow quoting.
The fediverse has over 100 different projects and multiple protocols already connected to it. If you are concerned that people will quote you or boost you on other networks, you might want to consider a whitelist servers where you only allow approved Mastodon instances.
With or without the Bluesky bridge, you are about to be outnumbered by Threads, WordPress, and other projects coming online. ActivityPub is an open network, after all. Always has been.
But the nice thing is that you can control who you connect with by blocking or whitelisting. In your case, being on a whitelist server would probably address your concerns.
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Unknown parent • • •reshared this
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Evan Minto
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •reshared this
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •Thanks a lot, Scott.
I am aware of several of these things. A friend of mine, stefanbohacek.online/@stefan, created jointhefediverse.net to remedy this lack of undesirable for newbies and no-nerds.
I know what #whitelisting is general, but how would I go about this on #Mastodon?
The whitelist, if I don't want to do everything manually (no-go,) would need to be "intelligent" and able to discern the platform s.o. is using for his handle...
I can live with the screenshot issue.
Join the fediverse!
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol
I don't use Mastodon, so I don't know for sure. Some people have mentioned that there is a whitelist mode that is called "limited federation mode" or something like that. The admin would have to turn that on since it is for the whole instance.
If you don't want to use whitelist mode, people have been talking about blocklists that can be imported into Mastodon. I am not familiar with how they work. Maybe someone who uses Mastodon could answer this one?
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Qazm
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •In short, it's just like blocking one-by-one but as batch-action. Admins can also block domains using wildcards, I think.
However, either would not work to block specific software. You would indeed have to use an instance in limited federation mode, where each connection is checked one-by-one, to avoid federating with Friendica and Hubzilla instances that could copy your posts over.
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to Qazm • • •@Qazm There are other options, like using a platform that has privacy, access lists, permissions, and better moderation tools. Mastodon only has block lists, which limits user's control over their own posts.
For example, on Mastodon you can block someone so you can't see their posts, but you can't stop them from replying to posts they have already seen. On Hubzilla, you can actually turn off commenting on your posts so no one can reply or so that specific people can't reply, and can even delete other people's replies to your thread. You control the conversation in your thread. You can't do that on platforms like Mastodon.
Also, on Hubzilla, it is all about user choice. So if Hubzilla implements the Bluesky protocol, both the admin AND the user would have to opt-in. Users would have to actively turn on the Bluesky addon to federate with Bluesky. Otherwise none of their posts will ever be sent to Bluesky. I am pretty sure Friendica will work the same way.
So Hubzilla and Friendica would actually do a better job at blocking Bluesky than the bridge does. And the bridge actually has a lot of options for blocking Bluesky.
So instead of blocking Hubzilla and Friendica, you probably want to start using it instead, since it gives you better protection against Threads and Bluesky than Mastodon does.
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •(1/n)
I think I owe you a quick #INTRO, as I have not been in contact with you before, so you might better understand my concerns.
I am a political commentator, as well as an activist. This is why I cannot remain silent:
This is a global super-election year. #Democracy is up for grabs in about 50 countries.1)--This is how the billionaires and the #autocrats like #Putin and #Xi see it, or how #YoelRoth...
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@activitypubblueskybridge
AP-AT-BridgeGroup
Very interesting, how is it possible that you boosted my #Intro thread, even though I have #NoBridge in my bio and am not even a member of your group?!?
@shiri @jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •Thanks for the explanation, Shiri.
I pay attention to such thinks, but even with hindsight, I do not see such a group reference.
On #Mastodon, groups are also possible, but I forgot how to use them, as I used them so little.
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol
For someone like you, you would probably want to post publicly, to as many platforms and protocols as you can, so you reach a wider audience. But you would need to choose a platform with better permissions and moderation tools.
For example, you would want to control who can comment on your posts and be able to delete comments that are toxic. Mastodon does not have this capability, but most platforms that have threaded conversations give you that ability.
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •(2/n)
...former head of #Twitter's Trust and Security department, might have phrased it. 2)
We have all seen what has happened to #Twitter. What many still don't know, is why he is supposedly burning a lot of money with the purchase: 3).
#Musk and his #TESCREAL 4) adherents from Silicon Valley are vying for world domination. #Elmo already is the world's most...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •(4/n)
... successful has so far been the #FederalistSociety in conjunction with the #CenterForNationalPolicy (#CNP), among whose major feats are putting #Trump in the #WhiteHouse and hijacking the #US #SupremeCourt. 6)
#Autocrats like #Putin and #Xi trying to gain influence through military and economic means are the other group of people trying to destroy #Western #democracies by disseminating...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •(3/n)
...influential fascist, just considering his market power regarding #SpaceX 5) and the "voice" he has as #X owner. By turning off his #StarLink service in #Crimea, he has successfully prevented potentially victorious strikes by #Ukraine against #Russia's invasion force.
But they are not the only #billionaire group vying for even more power. The most...
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •(6/n)
...#PredictivePolicing. 8)
*2024 certainly isn't the year to remain silent:*
#Poland lost and regained its democracy twice already.
The *US* might lose it to a ruthless autocrat in 2025.
And #Ukraine is fighting tooth and nail for its #democracy.
//
FOOTNOTES:
1) weforum.org/agenda/2023/12/202…
2) mastodon.social/@HistoPol/1110…
3) mastodon.social/@HistoPol/1100…
4) mastodon.social/@HistoPol/1105…
...
HistoPol (@HistoPol@mastodon.social)
MastodonHistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •(5/n)
... #disinformation and carrying out #CyberWarfare.
And, last but not least, another, even more dangerous #PayPal of #Elmo, #PeterThiel, is enabling governments around the globe to get rid of opponents. The dangerous spyware he owns, #Palantir, is being used e.g. to hunt down investigative journalists in #SouthAmerica 8) and elsewhere 7) and for #discriminatory...
Jupiter Rowland
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol
That's because Mastodon doesn't tell you that
Not yet. They're working on it. And everything else that has working groups/forums now is afraid that Mastodon will re-invent the wheel in a way that's the most incompatible possible to what already exists on more than half a dozen Fediverse projects.
What you mean is probably Guppe, but that isn't built into Mastodon and a far cry from what's possible on Friendica.
CC: @Jamie Booth @Oli @Ryan Barrett @Luca Sironi @Andre @chronohart
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Friendica #Groups
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •"If you operate in a "I control where my message goes" manner, then you're operating in a manner that can be very easily silenced. It drastically limits your reach.
It's one of those fundamental things where you can't have it both ways, control over your reach is inherently limiting to your reach."
Excellent point, Shiri. Taken.
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •(1/2)
"If you operate in a "I control where my message goes" manner, then you're operating in a manner that can be very easily silenced. It drastically limits your reach.
It's one of those fundamental things where you can't have it both ways, control over your reach is inherently limiting to your reach."
Excellent point, Shiri. Taken.
However, please...
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •"...have to shut down the whole network to stop you.
Bridges make it even harder for them because then you can also jump between platforms and if they can't shut down your server they'd have to shut down every single bridge..."
I begin to like #bridges. #FascismProof and #AutocracyProof, so-to-speak 😀
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
like this
Luca Sironi likes this.
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •(1/2)
"If Bluesky starts pumping hardcore propaganda and silencing leftist voices... then the bridge offers a light, showing the abuse and giving them a way out that doesn't involve starting over from scratch."
How so? I have not read that you can migrate you #BlueSky account to another #Fediverse platform, say, #friendica
However, for me the single biggest #exit barrier is, that I...
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •(2/2)
...would lose my over 40k posts again, and *a lot* of them are important to me, as I regularly reference back to older posts. Furthermore, convos/discussions, such as these, are of value and are also worth keeping for future reference. They'd be lost, too, by moving. AFAIC, there is only one #Fediverse platform that permits migrating posts, but only internally, too.
//
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •" But you would need to choose a platform with better permissions and moderation tools.
For example, you would want to control who can comment on your posts and be able to delete comments that are toxic. "
Very true.
However, I have a very strick block policy and in 98% of cases, the threat of using it, helps.
I always wonder a little bit what happens, after I block s.o.
My understanding is, that his/her posts remain, but we cannot see each others posts anymore (counter-block, mostly)
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol On platforms like Hubzilla and Streams (and most other platforms that support threaded conversations), you have more control.
Basically, a threaded conversation is a container, and the person who started the conversation controls what goes into that container. If you, as the person who started the conversation, don't like what someone said, you can delete their post. Since it is part of your container, a delete notification goes out to everyone participating on your thread and the post gets deleted for them too. The person who originally posted it would still have their copy, and their followers might still see it, but it would no longer be distributed via your thread to people following the thread. You can also prevent someone from commenting on your post at all, which in that case, their comment gets rejected and is not distributed to anyone.
It works similar with forum topics, except the forum owns the initial conversation. The administrator or moderator can delete posts and restrict commenting.
The threaded conversation model gives you more control over the conversation than non-threaded platforms based on pre-X Twitter.
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Scott M. Stolz
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •@HistoPol
That is one of the main reasons the fediverse exists and and is structured the way it is.
There still are some concerns about trolls commenting on your posts, but that can be dealt with using the proper tools.
This applies to the fediverse as well.
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Qazm
in reply to Scott M. Stolz • • •@scott I don't think so. Other Hubzilla or Friendica instances that receive a Hubzilla post over AP can still boost it over there, right?
The reply control from your instance won't stop Mastodon users from replying either (though it will stop you seeing those replies, and to some extent will reduce the visibility of replies).
I think it all comes down to what's outlined in foggyminds.com/display/c6ef095… (saw that post a little after my reply above) and open federated social media in general being built around own-access-choices rather than data control, outside of posting modes with very limited reach which *should* be implemented with more privacy than they are.
Shiri Bailem
2024-02-15 20:45:10
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •Highly interesting.
I think this sentence is missing the alternative method to #AccountMigration:
"The way out is because you can leave without severing connections."
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
Unknown parent • • •I did this using a Tool migrating from the (now) #DeadBirdSite.
Still, not being able to migrate the convos is NOT an "alternative", but an *escape hatch*."
One example, that many will know:
Imagine, that you invented 1000's of hours uploading and curating pics and shorts on your #Instagram account.
For whatever reason, you cannot maintain your account. Starting a new one, you lose all your work (it's not just...
@jamie @oliphant @snarfed.org @luca @PCOWandre @chronohart @snarfed
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HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴
in reply to HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴 • • •(2/2)
...just the pics, but the interaction with contacts.)
PS:
I know:
...there are tools for exporting (beside the point)
...many people here even autodelete there posts (utterly different use-case)
...it's better than on most corporate sites (yes, but still just "rudimentary" flexibility, at least on #Mastodon.)
...that #Firefish(?) (still?) supports own-post migration (but that was no choice when I joined)
//
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Luca Sironi
Unknown parent • • •I didn't knew this thing that you can't migrate your follower from mastodon to friendica 😐
From mastodon to pleroma (and i think also misskey) it works.
cc @informapirata
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informapirata ⁂
in reply to Luca Sironi • • •I understand your difficulties, but always remember that Friendica is compatible with ActivityPub BUT it works with a different protocol and its profiles are particular objects that contain a kind of unique key
@shiri
Luca Sironi
Unknown parent • • •@activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
Well, migrating followers (just followers) should really be a standard feature of ActivityPub then.
One that must be implemented by all the supposed AP compatible projects
Nobody is gonna buy the theoretical reach of all the same people, like real freedom to change fediverse provider.
cc @evan
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informapirata ⁂
Unknown parent • • •I'm actually pretty sure Friendica put up Activitypub a few months later than mastodon, but otherwise I agree with what you say.
@luca
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informapirata ⁂
in reply to Luca Sironi • • •In reality, when it comes to migrations, Friendica does much more than any other ActivityPub-compatible platform, such as importing all the messages and contents of the old profile...
Friendica cannot be responsible for Mastodon's flaws 🤷🏽♂️
@evan @shiri @activitypubblueskybridge @fedidevs @fediversenews
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