Linux phones are more important now than ever.
E: apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate. Please don't be one of the 34 people that replied to tell me Linux is not ready.
Android has always been a fairly open platform, especially if you were deliberate about getting it that way, but we've seen in recent months an extremely rapid devolution of the Android ecosystem:
- The closing of development of an increasing number of components in AOSP.
- Samsung, Xiaomi and OnePlus have removed the option of bootloader unlocking on all of their devices. I suspect Google is not far behind.
- Google implementing Play Integrity API and encouraging developers to implement it. Notably the EU's own identity verification wallet requires this, in stark contrast to their own laws and policies, despite the protest of hundreds on Github.
- And finally, the mandatory implementation of developer verification across Android systems. Yes, if you're running a 3rd-party OS like GOS you won't be directly affected by this, but it will impact 99.9% of devices, and I foresee many open source developers just opting out of developing apps for Android entirely as a result. We've already seen SyncThing simply discontinue development for this reason, citing issues with Google Play Store. They've also repeatedly denied updates for NextCloud with no explanation, only restoring it after mass outcry. And we've already seen Google targeting any software intended to circumvent ads, labeling them in the system as "dangerous" and "untrusted". This will most certainly carry into their new "verification" system.
Google once competed with Apple for customers. But in a world where Google walks away from the biggest antitrust trial since 1998 with yet another slap on the wrist, competition is dead, and Google is taking notes from Apple about what they can legally get away with.
Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement.
Samsung One UI Removed Bootloader Unlock – What It Means for Users in 2025
Samsung One UI removed bootloader unlock officially in latest update. Learn what this change means for custom ROM users, developers, and how it affects Android enthusiasts.Pavithran (TrendsLife)
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hendrik
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to hendrik • • •It seems like you read the title as "everyone needs to switch to Linux mobile right now" but that's not what it says.
The point is, as you said, there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and that work is more important now than ever.
Flagstaff
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Flagstaff • • •I dunno! It will really require the participation of the entire community.
Gnome has been making great progress on the graphical front.
Notifications should be pretty simple, and probably should be provided by hardware manufacturers. But the support will need to be implemented into the apps that need them. That can potentially also fix the battery issue.
PostmarketOS I think is probably the most mature Linux mobile package currently but I'm no expert on the subject.
GNOME Shell on mobile: An update
Jonas Dreßler (GNOME Shell & Mutter)Vittelius
in reply to Ulrich • • •I'd argue that Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish are the most mature offerings. Both OSs are (or at least were at some point) developed as commercially viable alternatives to the duopoly. That gives them a headstart in terms of apps and overall pollish.
The postmarket shells are catching up, but you still get instructions like "drag and drop a file from your file manager to open it", which doesn't work on a phone. Phone UX still seems like an afterthought in many cases.
Postmarket OS is a desktop Linux system, but for phones. UT and Sailfish on the other hand are mobile OSs, that happen to use much of the same tech as desktop Linux. They are therefore much closer to the duopoly (for bettet or for worse).
Flagstaff
in reply to Vittelius • • •Vittelius
in reply to Flagstaff • • •Syncthing:
- Ubuntu Touch
- Sailfish
Navigation:
- Ubuntu Touch
- Sailfish
OpenStore
OpenStoreFlagstaff
in reply to Vittelius • • •folaht
in reply to Flagstaff • • •Have had both. Still have Sailfish because the phone is cheaper.
Also I thought Ubuntu Touch would be discontinued and I no longer use Ubuntu on my desktop,
but an Arch-based OS.
Best thing you can do is buy a phone that's most compatible to the OS.
So Fairphone 5 or Pixel 3a for Ubuntu Touch,
and Jolla 2 for the Sailfish.
Do not buy Pine64.
Pine64 is unusable.
Flagstaff
in reply to folaht • • •Dang it, I gotta change, I guess, unless this info is old:
Here's how to unlock the bootloader and root the Samsung Galaxy S23 right now
Skanda Hazarika (XDA)Vittelius
in reply to folaht • • •Isn't the VollaPhone Quintus the best option for Ubuntu Touch? (It's more expensive than the Fair Phone, but it ships with UT)
volla.online/en/index.php
Volla Mobile Devices
Volla Devicesfolaht
in reply to Vittelius • • •hendrik
in reply to Ulrich • • •Sure. It's just that the timeframe is a bit disheartening. To me... so all of this is highly subjective. We had the Nokia N900 in like 2009. And I was expecting to live the full Linux experience within a few years and those things to become a bit more affordable. And today it's almost 16 years later and it doesn't feel like we've come substantially closer. More recently we had Librem and Pine64 put some effort and publicity into it, and that's also been 5 years. The mobile/touch desktops made some good progress. PostmarketOS is kind of nice. But there are entire layers missing like the app framework in Android which enables such app lifecycles, connected standby... Sandboxing and a fine-granular permission system for proprietary apps (or just modern mainstream usage) is kind of in its infancy. And I'm not even sure if everyone is going to use Flatpak for everything. And all of those missing things are huge undertakings.
So I'm not sure when to expect such an every-day phone... Maybe in 2030 or 2035? But that's kind of late if the headline is "more important now, than ever". Because all the while Google is moving more and more stuff from AOSP into their proprietary Play services and it's getting uncomfortable for me. We have a deadline with the Google messes with the allowed apps on a phone starting 2027. And my life includes more and more mandatory apps, or I have to forfeit taking part in society, culture, convenience or riding a train... This year, Google started giving the GrapheneOS devs a hard time... Now they're making it even more complicated.
So of course not everyone has to use it, and I'm first of all concerned with my own wellbeing. But I really don't see a solution in the near future which is going to address the important issues if today and the next few years. So I'm a bit unsure if a Linux phone will come around and help me before it's too late, or if I need to find other ways to deal with it.
Ulrich
in reply to hendrik • • •TheCoralReefsAreDying69
in reply to Ulrich • • •Can you help me understand why Linux phones are the answer rather than a community maintained android fork?
Android is already fully featured and has a solid ecosystem so it's usable now, not in 5-10 years with less of a need for adjustment for the people who want to switch.
Basically, why take several steps backwards and start from scratch?
Ulrich
in reply to TheCoralReefsAreDying69 • • •TheCoralReefsAreDying69
in reply to Ulrich • • •I strongly disagree with this comment. I'll answer your numbered points from the original post one by one with my perspective:
Do you disagree with any of these? Would love to hear your thoughts
Ulrich
in reply to TheCoralReefsAreDying69 • • •Wow. Ok.
All "community driven forks" are based on Google's AOSP. None of them have the resources to develop this stuff from the ground up.
No but someone would sell Linux devices if they were commercially viable, and no one would buy a Linux device with a locked bootloader.
You wouldn't need it on Linux mobile because...it's not Android.
I already addressed this in OP.
fuck_u_spez_in_particular
in reply to Ulrich • • •But then you need apps that work on Linux (optimised for mobile/touch). You can also easily create Apps for Android without play integrity API necessity.
Realistically an Android fork makes more sense.
Though in my ideal dream world a Rust based mobile wayland compositor (etc.) will be the future of open mobile OS. I hope there's enough (financial) interest to at some point reach that future.
Ulrich
in reply to fuck_u_spez_in_particular • • •Correct again! Running Linux apps on Linux, what a concept!
It doesn't, for all the reasons I listed in OP.
fuck_u_spez_in_particular
in reply to Ulrich • • •Don't get me wrong, I'm the first promoting an Android free mobile Linux, free of big company influences.
Though, what I meant is that there's very few mobile optimised apps on Linux, and I doubt that changes soon. The Android SDK is very matured (like Compose for UI). It's fairly easy to create a good native app experience in Android. Less so for non-Android Linux. (I've developed apps for either) Think about that alone, which further complicates adoption, which TBH is just necessary to get to an ecosystem that us usable for daily usage.
I hope that changes sooner than later, but the current alternatives are just not there yet.
Ulrich
in reply to fuck_u_spez_in_particular • • •eldavi
in reply to hendrik • • •hendrik
in reply to eldavi • • •freebee
in reply to hendrik • • •Olgratin_Magmatoe
in reply to Ulrich • • •Definitely going to be trying for some kind of linux phone for my next one.
Debating biting the bullet on the ~$800 cost of a fairphone.
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AmazingAwesomator
in reply to Olgratin_Magmatoe • • •i know it is still google, but i just started searching ebay for a used pixel 9 - looks like they are around $400-500 (pixel 10 came out last month). i figure getting graphene os on one of these may be an inexpensive path forward... still looking for good options, tho.
i'll have to check out fairphone. i remember something about them not being available in the US, but that may be old news.
tuckerm
in reply to AmazingAwesomator • • •Category:Fairphone - postmarketOS Wiki
wiki.postmarketos.orgAmazingAwesomator
in reply to tuckerm • • •oof, no wifi is kind of a dealbreaker for me; i have a home server and really dont want to have to be VPN'd into my home all the time 🙁
looks like fairphone 6 doesnt have much support on postmarket yet, but i'll keep an eye on it - ty ❤
tuckerm
in reply to AmazingAwesomator • • •Yeah, I don't think the Fairphone 6 is quite ready. In fact, since none of the previous Fairphone models ever got to full Linux usability, I don't really expect it to happen.
I think the best option -- and really the only option -- right now is the Furilabs FLX1. I'm planning on getting one soon.
swelter_spark
in reply to tuckerm • • •poVoq
in reply to tuckerm • • •Ubuntu Touch • Linux Phone
devices.ubuntu-touch.iotuckerm
in reply to poVoq • • •ultranaut
in reply to Olgratin_Magmatoe • • •I was looking into Fairphone and got sketched out, they do not really seem particularly trustworthy or competent.
For example: discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134…
Devices lacking standard privacy/security patches and protections aren't private - GrapheneOS Discussion Forum
GrapheneOS Discussion ForumOlgratin_Magmatoe
in reply to ultranaut • • •vermaterc
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to vermaterc • • •dukatos
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to dukatos • • •dukatos
in reply to Ulrich • • •khar21
in reply to Ulrich • • •mat
in reply to Ulrich • • •Hack3900
in reply to mat • • •Had family use it because they had a Huawei phone
mat
in reply to Hack3900 • • •eldavi
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ozymandias1688
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Ozymandias1688 • • •Bassman27
in reply to Ulrich • • •swelter_spark
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to swelter_spark • • •Dariusmiles2123
in reply to Ulrich • • •In my country, for all the banks I use, I need to have an app on my phone to access their website with my Linux computer.
So a Linux phone would need to provide this as I can’t be without access to my accounts.
Ulrich
in reply to Dariusmiles2123 • • •Wat.
PoisonedPrisonPanda
in reply to Ulrich • • •thats pretty common, in my country as well.
like a two factor authentication. but without TOTP. but with a proprietary app by the bank provided.
Ulrich
in reply to PoisonedPrisonPanda • • •Dariusmiles2123
in reply to Ulrich • • •Yeah it’s part of the 2 factors authentification process.
Back in the days you received some card reader generating a code, but that ain’t the case anymore..
So Linux would need to have a native version of these apps or a way to efficiently emulate Android or iOS.
Ulrich
in reply to Dariusmiles2123 • • •Dariusmiles2123
in reply to Ulrich • • •I didn’t know this. But I guess the bank has to allow it.
Last time I checked my banks were only allowing you to do such things through an app or at the bank (which is far from my village).
pmk
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to pmk • • •Twig
in reply to pmk • • •pmk
in reply to Twig • • •At the same time, many things that relate to proving that I am me has become very convenient in this society. For example I moved to a new apartment and they just sent a link to the contract and I signed it with the app and that was that, I did my taxes by just checking that the info they had was correct and signed it on my phone, etc.
deczzz
in reply to pmk • • •pmk
in reply to deczzz • • •beleza pura
in reply to Ulrich • • •MrSmith
in reply to Ulrich • • •Many cheaper online banks rely on their mobile app. Your debit card will not work wirhout an in-app confirmation. There's no web interface ("not secure enough").
Can I switch banks and make my life less convenient? Sure. Would I do it just to stick it to google? No.
hanrahan
in reply to vermaterc • • •Shimitar
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Shimitar • • •Shimitar
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Shimitar • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Shimitar • • •Shimitar
in reply to Flagstaff • • •There you go:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothin…
English technology company based in London, England
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Flagstaff
in reply to Shimitar • • •Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to Ulrich • • •I would like to move away from Android and iOS. But I'm not sure it's really feasible. Hell, I might even have to move fully to iOS, because that's what the wife uses. That's the challenge with Linux or alternative OSes on mobile. It goes against the purpose of the device - it needs to be able to interact with the people in your life.
Because I have Android and she has an iPhone, we can't easily share headphones (her AirPods or my generic ones) or some of the other accessories. For instance, I don't want a device without a 3.5mm jack, so none of my headphones work for her. About the only thing we can share is the USB-C cable, and it's less efficient on my device. We have to use Google Maps to share location, the built-in functions don't talk. We have to use regular SMS and calls or Discord to talk, because FaceTime and iMessage don't have compatible Android software. I love her with all my heart - and frankly speaking she's worth more to me than software advocacy.
That's what causes ecosystem lock-in. As Sartre said, Hell is other people.
Ulrich
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •That's not a "challenge" that linux can ever overcome. The only way to overcome that is to ask your wife to switch to a device that's respectful of you and her and everyone else.
I find it extremely irritating that so many people see other devices and "well I can't interact with them the way I want to so I'd better join them and contribute to the problems so I can also not interact with other people on free systems".
Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to Ulrich • • •Okay. Give me a Linux phone that works out of the box that suits the following dealbreakers:
Those are the dealbreakers for me.
Ulrich
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Listen, if you want to continue to contribute value to companies that want to fuck you at every turn because you can't be bothered to find other ways to overcome minor inconveniences, that's your prerogative. You're just like most people.
Once again, this is never going to happen. And this is NOT essential. To anyone. Not even a little bit. Ask your family members to use a different platform. There are HUNDREDS of messaging apps that all do the same fucking thing but aren't behind Apple's Walled Garden. If they can't be bothered, then it must not be important. I ask my friends and family to message me on Signal and most of them don't have a problem with it.
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swelter_spark
in reply to Ulrich • • •like this
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Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to swelter_spark • • •Hack3900
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Unfortunately not usable with Linux without a phone yet but so far the most accessible option
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anon5621
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to anon5621 • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Wait, aren't we on here due to privacy?
Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to Flagstaff • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to Flagstaff • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •like this
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magguzu
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Like you, I value my relationships and by extension my mental health more than which messaging app I use.
I hate Meta with a passion and them acquiring Whatsapp is probably the most disappointing acquisition of all time to me, but I'm going to continue using it because my wife, family in Latin America, and world friends all use it. And being lonely and out of touch isn't worth the satisfaction of knowing my data isn't being scraped to me. Others in these threads always seems to disagree here, and they're free to do that but it's not a lifestyle I'm interested in.
I'm making changes where I can; I self host a server for my media, photos, files. I'm going to install Graphene on my phone soon. I'm interested in picking up a cheaper older phone to try a Linux mobile OS on. I have my phone auto connect to my pihole to block trackers when I'm out of the house, etc. But I know as soon as it's something I have to inconvenience others with, it's not going to work.
Pick your battles.
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mnemonicmonkeys
in reply to Endymion_Mallorn • • •Endymion_Mallorn
in reply to mnemonicmonkeys • • •somerandomperson
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to somerandomperson • • •AstroLightz
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to AstroLightz • • •hobbsc
in reply to AstroLightz • • •drhoopoe
in reply to hobbsc • • •hobbsc
in reply to drhoopoe • • •brachiosaurus
in reply to AstroLightz • • •Sure about that?
bridgeenjoyer
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to bridgeenjoyer • • •dai
in reply to bridgeenjoyer • • •Banks allow me to login via their web interface, send money to a BSB + Account Number or even a PayID (email / phone number) but using their app to do just the same is too far?
It's total rubbish, honestly I've resurrected my OG ridge wallet and am planning on installing Graphene on my P7P to skirt the phone payment trap.
I was one of the few in Australia to test Google wallet (thanks for the free cash google) and thought it was the bees knees. It's a fucking long con and fuck I feel dumb for falling into it.
Worst still my drivers licence is a phone app, so are my work certificates and probably a bunch of other shit that I'll only realize later.
I guess fuck around and find out shows its ugly face eventually.
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swelter_spark
in reply to dai • • •dai
in reply to swelter_spark • • •Ahh we don't really use cheques here in Aus. Payments being electronic doesn't worry me, pay lands in my account the same day it's processed, sometimes the following day if the accountants miss the deadline.
Sending someone money is generally instant using PayID, without fees too.
I use neobanks (no physical branches) so as long as their web interface works well enough for me, and I can use my own 2FA (not SMS based) ill be happy as a pig in mud.
Just wait and see if the climate turns to no physical cards in the next 5 - 10 years...
swelter_spark
in reply to dai • • •Mordikan
in reply to dai • • •☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
in reply to Ulrich • • •I imagine building on existing AOSP project like GrapheneOS or LineageOS would be the easiest path forward. There is already a decent ecosystem of open source apps available. You'd still need to figure out what to do with proprietary apps like Slack that regular people might need for day to day use.
Ultimately, the problem lies in lack of a hardware vendor willing to take make open phones that are geared towards running a custom OS on without having to jailbreak them. I really think the only way this can happen is if there was a vendor that focuses on providing a full stack open source system for mobile. Maybe a company like Liberux or even Framework will succeed at doing something like that at some point.
Liberux is using waydroid to add compatibility from what I've seen, so that may be the way forward where you have a base Linux system, and then a layer for running Android apps on top of it.
deczzz
in reply to ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ • • •swelter_spark
in reply to Ulrich • • •ArmchairAce1944
in reply to swelter_spark • • •network_switch
in reply to Ulrich • • •Yes. Need the kind of love desktop hardware got for Linux with mobile hardware. I don't need tap to pay and mobile deposit. That can come when the ball really gets rolling and the user base is too large to not service. For now I'd be happy with consistent phone/text support, signal application, a mobile Firefox, and the phone dockable to run full desktop applications. Strong enough hardware. Google are a bunch of jackasses. Need more phones to support PostmarketOS or something
Most apps I can replace with a web browser but the mass market has shown it's preference for an app store. Got to get payments integrated into Flathub
Hack3900
in reply to network_switch • • •dreadbeef
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to dreadbeef • • •maam
in reply to dreadbeef • • •oeuf
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to oeuf • • •oeuf
in reply to Ulrich • • •Cyberdecks are 1) pocketable 2) computing devices 3) often wireless, and 4) run Linux.
That's what people want from phones, so I figured it was a valid contribution to the discussion.
I guess not...
Ulrich
in reply to oeuf • • •oeuf
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to oeuf • • •unfinished | 🇵🇸
in reply to oeuf • • •jobbies
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to jobbies • • •Alaknár
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Alaknár • • •AdrianTheFrog
in reply to Ulrich • • •for 4 Linux would also kind have the same problem as a 3rd party ROM, (almost) no one is making mobile apps for Linux
Sure, there are a lot of desktop apps, but most don't have a mobile UI in mind
Ulrich
in reply to AdrianTheFrog • • •Alaknár
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Alaknár • • •hexagonwin
in reply to Alaknár • • •xia
in reply to jobbies • • •MrSmith
in reply to jobbies • • •My first thought was that a hard-fork of AOSP would be a much better solution than a Linux phone. But when you have locked down hardware, it doesn't matter, because you simply can't install it.
I still think a community fork of AOSP would be more efficient than Linux mobile.
oeuf
in reply to Ulrich • • •Are there any Linux mobile OSs that do not use a compatibility layer with Android underneath it?
I tried Ubuntu Touch a couple of years ago and couldn't get mobile data working with UK provider but apart from that it was very cool.
Ulrich
in reply to oeuf • • •Eskuero
in reply to Ulrich • • •I have a Pixel 9 Pro which is supposed to get security updates until 2031 but at the pace Google is closing Android down I wonder if it will even be viable to stay on an AOSP degoogled ROM until then.
I feel like the future is leading us to a place where we will have to reduce our mobile computing to a trusted but slow and unreliable main phone while keeping a secondary mainstream device for banking/government apps.
ninth_plane
in reply to Eskuero • • •Tenderizer78
in reply to ninth_plane • • •eclipse
in reply to Eskuero • • •Hack3900
in reply to Ulrich • • •wiki_me
in reply to Ulrich • • •Have you looked at the state of how open source smartphone os projects are funded? Seems like not enough people think it is currently important. i saw no bump in funding since the announcement. I would say the best bet is trying to help one of these projects with fundraising and trying to educate or convince enough people it is worth investing in. and obviously donate if you can. Although to be honest even i don't do that (i think i invest enough in FOSS).
Once i bought a phone i tried to pick one that is friendly for FOSS projects and went with a pixel (which grapheneos recommended). so voting or signaling with your wallet is an option.
I also think something like codeberg. where anyone can be a member if he pays fees that help fund the organisation and democratically elect a board that decides what to fund could be helpful. codeberg has a pretty good organic growth so that is encouraging but i don't know if there is enough interest in that.
codeberg's profile - Liberapay
Liberapaymaam
in reply to wiki_me • • •AdrianTheFrog
in reply to Ulrich • • •Got me worried (bc i have a newish oneplus phone) but apparently OnePlus is only doing that in China for now. Still not a good sign for the future...
☂️-
in reply to Ulrich • • •xiaomi is doing something like motorola, in which they drop support for unlocking older devices.
pretty slimy move considering those are the ones that need it the most. very disappointed in a manufacturer that otherwise makes great hardware.
friend_of_satan
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to friend_of_satan • • •T-Deck Pro Meshtastic
LILYGO®xthexder
in reply to Ulrich • • •I think the biggest thing lacking in this kind of hardware is displays. Where can you find a phone-sized 1080p display that doesn't require signing some NDA or reverse engineering the specs? OLED would be even better for battery life.
I don't see that probably 360p black-or-white e-ink display is going to be a good experience unless you're comparing it to a flip phone.
Ulrich
in reply to xthexder • • •sparky@lemmy.federate.cc
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to sparky@lemmy.federate.cc • • •sparky@lemmy.federate.cc
in reply to Ulrich • • •hexagonwin
in reply to sparky@lemmy.federate.cc • • •toastal
in reply to Ulrich • • •AbsolutePain
in reply to Ulrich • • •I'll consider a Linux phone as long as the following are met:
If these are met, I'll buy whatever is available in a year or two.
fading_person
in reply to AbsolutePain • • •This one requirement I believe to be already met. Mobile kde, for one, is pretty nice. I believe the bottleneck of linux phones are really in the hardware
kittenzrulz123
in reply to fading_person • • •plyth
in reply to AbsolutePain • • •Google and Facebook will cooperate. WhatsApp will never work reliably.
0x0
in reply to plyth • • •Use the web version, although you'll need a phone to authenticate.
Better yet, move out of whatsapp (i know, network effect).
Blisterexe
in reply to 0x0 • • •Twig
in reply to AbsolutePain • • •Zink
in reply to Ulrich • • •Smart phones are simultaneously such a wonder of human engineering and have become such a disappointment of human greed.
This whole situation has made me just care less about my phone, and use it less in my life while I use Linux PCs much more.
I don't see my phone as a "computer" at this point, really. It's more of a communication appliance. If I'm launching an app that's not texting, calling, GPS, or music, it's probably a replacement for a website I'd normally use on a PC.
Linux phones could change this though. The idea of your PC being your docked phone would work great for most use cases. Unfortunately though, even though I would love it I don't really see the general public jumping at the chance to get back to the desktop experience. I could maybe see a little traction in the business world.
fading_person
in reply to Zink • • •Zink
in reply to fading_person • • •Oh same here! My reduced phone usage has been part of a much larger overall improvement in my well being and being able to live in the moment and be content.
I recently saw a video from a harvard dude talking about how we NEED to be bored. It's when we fall into our baseline mental state and start thinking through shit and figuring life out. And not doing that can lead to anxiety and depression and other bad shit. Given my experiences, I certainly cannot disagree.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=orQKfIXM…
- YouTube
m.youtube.combridgeenjoyer
in reply to Zink • • •This is pretty much how I am. Use my desktop for important things. On weekends I try to not even have my phone on my person and I check it a couple times a day while it stays in the bedroom like a house phone. Life is so much better without it.
I unfortunately still do like to take it with if walking/biking/driving but I wish I didn't. Id like to have another phone that only makes phone calls for that but has my same number. Its funny. When I was a kid we didn't even think about it because none of us had phones. Going on a random dirt bike ride miles away with nothing. Better (also unsafe) times.
Im tired of smartphones consuming everyone's minds.
Zink
in reply to bridgeenjoyer • • •Resisting the standard smartphone addiction just makes the addiction of some others so much more apparent. My own wife is still pretty badly shackled to hers.
bridgeenjoyer
in reply to Zink • • •Ulrich
in reply to Zink • • •pastermil
in reply to Ulrich • • •Dariusmiles2123
in reply to pastermil • • •0x0
in reply to Dariusmiles2123 • • •Ulrich
in reply to pastermil • • •papertowels
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to papertowels • • •Resonosity
in reply to Ulrich • • •My next phone will be a Linux phone.
I was on board the Fairphone hype, and while I think they have a good message, I actually think Pine64 does exactly what they do - just without the flashy marketing. Fairphone still uses AOSP as the basis for their OSes, so there is still a risk of hardware lockout by Google. This is leaving alone other issues like no headphone jack and USB 2.0 for the latest generation's USB-C.
This is actually the same reason I think Ecosia won't succeed in the long term unless they build their own search engine. Luckily it looks like they've already started delivering results as of last month.
I should also mention that the PinePhone isn't Scott free from criticism either. Think I read somewhere that the camera is borked because the latest firmware or software update messed with the camera module functionality. No real fix for that soon, which sucks.
PinePhone
PINE64GreenShimada
in reply to Resonosity • • •I'm in the same exact boat.
At some point when Google kills custom ROMs, everyone working on customs ROMs won't have anywhere else to go other than a Linux phone.
tippingmyfoodora
in reply to GreenShimada • • •Ich would also like to use a Linux Phone as daily Driver but it is not really appealing in it's current state. So i really hope, you are right and perople will start working on that more.
I'm probably just a bit frustrated from trying to get postmarketos working on some old phones. I am really stunned about how much effort has been put into that but the systems are so closed down and different, that it is a leally hard job to cover them all.
GreenShimada
in reply to tippingmyfoodora • • •That's what Google wants, because people gave up on Jailbreaking iPhones because the loss of features wasn't worth it on the other side. Google probably doesn't love that their flagship is the best model for use with custom ROMs, plus they're also trying to lock out Xiomi as well for what that's worth.
While giving up is an option, someone somewhere needs to coordinate this entire OSS ecosystem to focus on singular projects. I would love to see a privacy and FOSS non-profit do exactly this.
🧟♂️ Cadaver
in reply to Resonosity • • •bobo
in reply to Resonosity • • •Exactly what they do, except it's not a functional product. "Overpriced, underpowered, and half-finished" is the motto of pine64.
PinePhone
PINE64Resonosity
in reply to bobo • • •Yeah, as I alluded to at the end of my post, Pine64 has a lot of issues with making their devices actually useful.
They base a lot of their development on the community though. So if the community isn't up to it, then virtually no one at Pine64 is.
bobo
in reply to Resonosity • • •You missed the overpriced and underpowered part. In the EU, the pinephone pro cost 600€, the same as the fairphone 6, and it's significantly worse in every single way. Even if it actually worked, who in their right mind would pay that much for a device that's going to run out of ram as soon as you open a few tabs in Firefox?
I doubt they'll be fixing anything since they seem to have stopped selling them.
Also, if we go by their track record with the pinetime, PRs fixing basic functionality will be left open for years. Like how they can't be bothered to accept fixes allowing the stopwatch to run in the background and not reset when you get a notification, let alone QoL improvements like being able to tell the time on your watch while the stopwatch is running.
Resonosity
in reply to bobo • • •Pine64 stopped selling the PinePhone Pro due to a lack of demand.
The regular PinePhone is still being sold, although a lack of a "Pro" qualifier certainly doesn't help their optics of producing a competent phone at today's standards.
Matt
in reply to Ulrich • • •Auth
in reply to Matt • • •Matt
in reply to Auth • • •hexagonwin
in reply to Auth • • •Piece_Maker
in reply to Auth • • •I have a laptop with a SIM slot and I can use mobile data, SMS and even make voice calls. It doesn't support 5G though. Also the mobile hardware is crap, and I get like a 10th of the speed over 4G that I do on my phone, plus it chews through battery.
So yeah, awesome feature but not as nicely implemented as I'd like. Hopefully the Thinkpad version is better!
Sunsofold
in reply to Ulrich • • •Aetherion
in reply to Sunsofold • • •AnimalsDream
in reply to Sunsofold • • •Ardens
in reply to Ulrich • • •I don't agree!
A linux phone, or any other open source alternative, has ALWAYS been more important than the ones we've got. Being locked into an eco-system, has always been bad for the regular user. It's about companies controlling people and the market, and it should never have to be a choice between a rock and a hard place.
I really wish that the Firefox phone had gained more support. And I wish that there will soon be a linux-phone for the regular person, all over the world.
But I guess people in general keep choosing to lock themselves in, by using Google and Apple...
Auli
in reply to Ardens • • •Ardens
in reply to Auli • • •burlemarx
in reply to Ardens • • •It's not a simple matter of choice. Most people aren't invested into open source, they just want to get by and do their mundane things. Most people aren't even aware of all the privacy stuff or abusive practices of big business, it's usually some more outspoken tech savvy person that decides to expose what the big corps are doing. So using open source is not a choice, like you would be just choosing your preferred cereal brand, but both a technical and political act. And most people are just into the system, they aren't aware of all malicious things around them.
Not only that, but also when companies feel threatened, they start imposing new technical and legal restrictions to make using OSS harder. Since they have more control over the whole production supply chain of devices, they have more cost effective options and even partnership with hardware vendors to make using OSS very hard or impossible.
Ulrich
in reply to Ardens • • •toastal
in reply to Ardens • • •KaiOS 4.x just dropped with Fx 128 I think. You will be on an underpowered flip phone, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing…
arc99
in reply to Ulrich • • •Android is Linux. It uses a Linux kernel paired with a BSD based user land. Also there is an AOSP version of Android which is Android without all the Google bits. LineageOS and some other security oriented firmwares derive from it. That isn't to say Google are necessarily happy about this entirely but at the same time, they open sourced most of Android and probably see it as a useful antitrust defence and the impact of flashed devices barely more than background noise.
The issue of bootloaders is an orthogonal matter since Linux or not does not mean bootloader or not - many black box devices use Linux but you won't be flashing them any time soon - TVs, set top boxes etc. I would argue that regardless of OS, there should be a right to repair law (e.g. in Europe) that allows people to maintain devices beyond their warranty. And if Samsung et al don't want to do it, then they should have an obligation to unlock devices upon request.
moopet
in reply to arc99 • • •Ulrich
in reply to arc99 • • •0x0
in reply to arc99 • • •It's the exact opposite.
ASOP is open-source, it's in the name.
Google's Android has been less and less open-source every year, they've been replacing AOSP apps with their own and vendor-locking them to their GooglePlayAppsWhatever system (hence microG), shunning away the open-source variants they replace.
mariusafa
in reply to 0x0 • • •I mean open source is that. The only reason open source exist is to be able to close some parts of its source (i.e. compatibility with privative software). Google promoted open source because it allowed them to close it whenever they want it. The Trojan Horse was always there, at plain sight.
That's why it's important to distinguish free software from open software. In most cases open source is just a label that companies can use to look friendlier.
arc99
in reply to mariusafa • • •mariusafa
in reply to arc99 • • •Yeah, it depends on the specific licence clauses. AOSP uses Apache Licence 2.0 which is normally regarded as a free software licence but it also could be regarded as Open software as by the OSS definition.
The problem with this licence is that it allows distribution of binaries based on the original source code without having to share the source or even changing the licence.
This means that Google could effectively take the entire (some part of Google Android is already close sources) AOSP in the current state (with the contributions of thousand of individual developers) and use it to start developing a close source Android OS project. Since Google are the main developers of Android and they could shift OG Android into a closed environment that could be no longer compatible with the old one. Google also is the main provider of security fixes. Since phone manufacturera want to able to run Google Android (stock Android) this could make old Android versions (before privatization) incompatible with phones.
For example let's say that Google Android changes the main OS ABI or API. Then programs made for Google Android wouldn't be compatible with other Android versions.
This would basically make users decide or you stay with Google Android (close sourced) and you trust use because "do no evil ;)". Or you stay with your free software versions of Android that are no longer compatible with current Android programs basically forcing you to have an OS that's not able to run "common" programs, basically isolating you from the mainstream smart phone use cases like having banking apps, mainstream chat apps, etc.
arc99
in reply to mariusafa • • •You think if they used another licence it would be any different? Countless open source projects have a GPLv3 + proprietary licence which is way more evil than Apache - they poison the open source with GPLv3 so no competitor can contribute without revealing their changes while they themselves can use the proprietary licence. e.g. Trolltech and QT for example but there are many others.
And frankly you should be blessed that you have a fully fledged, open source phone OS you may fork and build from. The OP wants a Linux phone OS and AOSP is a Linux phone OS. There are many forks of Android, closed and open that wouldn't exist if Google had just decided to be proprietary from the get go. They were under no compulsion to do this but they did. If you have used LineageOS, or GrapheneOS for example then you are a beneficiary of this. You are completely at liberty to have a de-Googled modern phone OS powered by Linux right now.
mariusafa
in reply to arc99 • • •QT uses one or another, either GPLv3/LGPLv3/GPLv2 or privative. Poisoning open source? If you refer to the fact that they allow a closed source licence, yes I also dislike that. But how is GPLv3 poisoning anything? If you want to use and modify/contribute to the QT project then you have to maintain user freedoms unless you pay QT for their rights. In the end term, the user is always respected since contributions to base qt are always free software. With only a GPL licence then the developers would need to share source code for their distributions. The Multiple-Licence allows third party developers to gain "fully-paid-ownership" which allows them to close source it.
Also since QT it's allowed to be shiped with LGPL third party devs can close source their parts of code that link against QT.
So it's basically an interesting way of having a permissible licence while keeping the QT base fully libre.
Probably you refer to the availability that open source philosophy gives. Yeah, that is the principal difference between libre software and open software. Open software advocates for fully openness for the sake of the developers no matter what they want to make later with it, libre software advocates for the source code of the end user.
glitching
in reply to Ulrich • • •the vast majority of commenters here either have no direct experience with a Linux phone or have seen some shallow youtube "review" of a dude swiping the same two screens left/right and extrapolate a buncha shit that has no contact with reality.
presently, and in the foreseeable future, linux phones aren't an android alternative, they are just linux on the phone, i.e. they allow you to do linux shit on a handheld device.
like, the bleeding edge version of any variant (plasma mobile, gnome, phosh) isn't even close to an Android phone from like 2015, let alone a modern one.
and that's before we touch on the pillars of mobile tech like fluidity, battery efficiency, reliability, etc., none of those things are even in a remotely passable state, not to mention - using the thing to make calls. you are better off forgetting about the camera, as well.
and the reason is simple, not only is there a gargantuan discrepancy between evil corp's resources and the predominantly unpaid enthusiasts, each dev team's reimplementing shit that's already solved on another platform. apple doesn't have to do that. google as well.
then there's the idea that the javascript-backed Gnome - that has issues running fluidly on super-capable hardware - is the basis on a low-power device on which the linux mobile phone experience is built. reinventing solved shit, but in a stupid way - THREE FINGER swipe on a phone, really?
although there's a solid app base, the apps that are supposedly mobile friendly are few and far between, most are just downright unusable on a vertical screen and dog help you if launch an electron app. firefox, even with pmOS patches (useless without) is tiresome to use. you can forget about dating, ubering, banking, or even just using a messenger everybody else does.
if you're squeamish about flashing custom recoveries and ROMs, the e.g. pmOS install process is way, way, way more involved and failure prone. if you go with ubuntu touch or mobian, even more so.
finally, if you're talking about a device that you've grown accustomed to to the extent that you're using it subconsciously, swiping and multitasking and such whilst walking and dodging other pedestrians - no such thing exists over here.
I'm just tying this up because I keep reading about "switching", people are either delusional or misinformed, there's nothing (yet) to switch to.
get a couple of $50 ex-flaghips to play with, flash lineageOS on one and pmOS on the other and that should hold you over for a coupla years.
Flipper
in reply to glitching • • •glitching
in reply to Flipper • • •that's not a thing, presently. the OS has trouble running on its own and handling "native" apps, let alone introducing an emulation to the mix.
of course, it can and does work to some extent - but not one where you depend on it, like you do with modern phones.
quick_snail
in reply to Flipper • • •Auli
in reply to glitching • • •Yaky
in reply to Auli • • •Osmin on PinePhone was... Tolerable. I'm just pleasantly surprised it worked okay with GPS being integrated into the modem.
Takes a long time to get a GPS fix (like old standalone GPS units), but it's possible to provide A-GPS data to it.
Ulrich
in reply to glitching • • •glitching
in reply to Ulrich • • •I'm not critiquing your post, I'm just clarifying to a buncha people who think otherwise that it's not an option.
as to "it needs to accelerate", I have a grim outlook. the only way it's gonna do that is if there significant cash behind it and if everything non-essential is to be trimmed so that a functional platform can emerge. in our ever-enshittifying, greater-fool-theory investment climate, it's doubtful there loose capital with such an agenda, and I doubt such a thing is even on the horizon.
same way with "desktop linux"; like, can you image where we'd be if every development effort is geared towards just one DE/WM, instead of tons of duplicated efforts and abandoned paths? yeah, good things eventually emerge from all the disjointed chaos, but eventually. and our joint assessment is that we're running outta time for the "eventual" part.
Ulrich
in reply to glitching • • •glitching
in reply to Ulrich • • •see, this is the thing I'm talking about. your comment indicates that it's possibly a viable alternative to OS developed by the wealthiest corps in the world, for 15+ years and people are like "ok, there's options"...
it is nowhere near that. it's linux on a mobile device, and that's such a humongously, vastly different thing than an alternative and that should be the first and foremost thing said. same with the "android is linux" bozos in every thread (it really, really isn't) who are not helping the issue, at all.
and then we can dwell on whether it's usable or not in its present state.
Ulrich
in reply to glitching • • •It already is. It's just a matter of porting it over to a different form factor.
currycourier
in reply to glitching • • •quick_snail
in reply to glitching • • •What dating apps work in Andorid? Lol
Piece_Maker
in reply to glitching • • •What?? PmOS and Ubuntu Touch both have very easy, foolproof installers. No idea about Mobian to be fair.
I've been using only Linux-based mobile OS's since my first smartphone, and while you're right for a lot of the new breed made for the Pinephone and Librem, Sailfish OS and Ubuntu Touch are both perfectly useable for lots of people. Both have a decent app ecosystem and both support running Android apps to fill in the gaps (I've used both, the proprietary Jolla one is about as good as it gets and is practically seamless for like 99% of Android apps).
Of course there's going to be people who will respond to me to say they can't possibly switch because of that one app that they and 5 other people in the world use, as though they're in any way relevant to what I've said. Just the same as when I post about people switching to Linux on the desktop and there's always that one Fusion 360 user who thinks everyone in the world also uses Fusion and so Linux can't possibly ever work for anyone.
glitching
in reply to Piece_Maker • • •Crozekiel
in reply to Piece_Maker • • •To be fair, Fusion 360 is pretty good... I hate to love it, to miss it. I can't wrap my head around the work flow in FreeCAD.
But more often I am shocked by people saying they have to stay on windows because of Office... Like, the fuck? MS doesn't even want you to have that installed on your computer anymore and is pushing all web based, but that is going to keep you on Windows?? Nothing there is particularly hungry, just put it in a VM if you absolutely can't get by with one of the several great alternatives.
Hawk
in reply to Piece_Maker • • •This seems less of a problem in the US, but a lot of stuff here is done with some apps that won't run on these distributions.
Banks have created identity provides which now the government also uses, and they're locked down to Android and iOS. Without these, making payments or do other stuff you need your identity for gets hard. And there are used by hundreds of thousands of people daily.
If they can run, I'd switch over instantly, but now I'm pretty much stuck.
FosterMolasses
in reply to glitching • • •Thank you. I get what OP is saying, but in general I'm so over the constant blind Linux fanboy hype train, like it's the solution to everything. One of the reasons I can't really stand to be on this instance unless I see something important enough to hit the front page. I'll take a remotely functional windows dist with customized features over pretty much any linux OS anyday in order to not struggle to complete the most basic, essential tasks.
Life's too short to spend glued to Stackexchange instead of actually getting shit done.
HereIAm
in reply to FosterMolasses • • •What are these "most basic, essential" tasks you're struggling with? Outside of trying to get Discord to screen share nicely with Baulders gate 3 and the one time I accidentally overwrote the python 3 install and broken it, it has been pretty pain free. And I code with both .NET and with Android Studio, I do plenty of gaming, and some photo editing. All things beyond the most basic of tasks and I rarely run into issues.
Have I broken a Linux install? Yep. But I've also bricked a handful of Windows systems poking around in the registry.
Baldr
in reply to HereIAm • • •Crozekiel
in reply to FosterMolasses • • •mazzilius_marsti
in reply to Ulrich • • •Auli
in reply to mazzilius_marsti • • •Skorp
in reply to Auli • • •Tracker blocking uses flawed heuristics. The only methods that are typically used are static lists which is just badness enumeration. There is nothing stopping the app/service from sending the data down a different domain that isn't blocked or a domain that can't be blocked without breaking the service.
Adding to that, how do we even decide what is a "tracker"? What is the definition? Some might say it includes all telemetry or crashlytics. Are those inherently malicious?
I don't think it would make sense for GrapheneOS to include something flawed like a "tracker blocker" that lulls people into a false sense of security. They use robust and meaningful methods for improving the privacy and security of the OS.
Ulrich
in reply to mazzilius_marsti • • •Busyvar
in reply to Ulrich • • •Currently i am looking for a Jolla phone commerce.jolla.com/products/jo…
They are private company but seems to be very user friendly and carefull with their dev community. What do you think about them folks?
Jolla C2 Community Phone
Jolla Shopgoldkiddo
in reply to Busyvar • • •Lifter
in reply to Busyvar • • •Regrettable_incident
in reply to Ulrich • • •quick_snail
in reply to Ulrich • • •Meh, this will just push more people to not install gapps. None of these issues affect folks who don't install gapps.
The best apps are on fdroid, anyway. If I was a Dev I wouldn't bother putting it on Google play, anyway
Mike
in reply to quick_snail • • •quick_snail
in reply to Mike • • •Ulrich
in reply to quick_snail • • •It absolutely does, if you actually read the OP.
quick_snail
in reply to Ulrich • • •Crozekiel
in reply to quick_snail • • •How delusional are you? Samsung holds over 20% of the worldwide mobile phone market, only beat by Apple by a few percent.
And that is ignoring the obvious trend from Google to lock down the Android ecosystem to only them and their partners. If they have their way, they will make 3rd party ROMs nearly impossible, block all 3rd party apps, and close the door on fdroid. Maybe what has been done so far doesn't affect you, but if no one gets in their way, it absolutely will and soon.
Ulrich
in reply to quick_snail • • •I don't even know how to answer that. Nothing in the OP has anything to do with Google apps.
Samsung is the largest android manufacturer by a wide margin.
bridgeenjoyer
in reply to Ulrich • • •Is it possible to have my normal shitty samsung for stuff that wont work on a linux phone, and have like a pinephone for simple calls and stuff, but have them both use the same phone # ? I doubt.
Cuz when hiking or something I like a phone for safety but I dont want distractions.
Ulrich
in reply to bridgeenjoyer • • •Dharma Curious
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Dharma Curious • • •Just sign up with your service of choice and log in on whatever devices you want.
Someone suggested jmp.chat elsewhere.
mariusafa
in reply to Ulrich • • •I just hope that this time we go Free Software and not committing the mistake of going Open Source for a 3rd time (BSD/UNIX AT&T; Android/Google). Unless we want to fall with the same stone yet once more.
Android going Open Source allowed Google to close Android once it got mature. It's a Trojan Horse, yet people still go Open Source and then complain when some company closes their source.
Phoenixz
in reply to mariusafa • • •Though we can't use the android name and logo, the software that was open so far is still open for use.
Take that part and continue building from there
smiletolerantly
in reply to mariusafa • • •bufalo1973
in reply to smiletolerantly • • •AnimalsDream
in reply to bufalo1973 • • •I get where this argument is coming from, but I don't think there are meaningful differences in the success of gpl or other copyleft licenses, vs permissive ones (except maybe cases where someone was willing and able to enforce the gpl in court). Companies are no less capable of doing EEE with copyleft. There are also plenty of permissively licensed software projects that have gained a lot of popularity, just like some gpl ones have.
The difference in traction between Linux and BSD probably has more to do with the same kinds of forces that allowed Android to succeed and then crowd Windows phones out of the market.
mariusafa
in reply to smiletolerantly • • •My bad for no specifying I didn't use a very specific naming indeed. Normally Open Source it's used for source code that's not copylefted or copylefted software that does not defend user freedom (Although Open Source OSS does not say that, indeed GPL by the OSS definition is open source software). On the other hand Free software is commonly used for GPL like software (although most of the so called open source software could also be named free software). Also free software does not refer to "gratis" software. For a better explanation you can check this and this.
Anyways what I wanted to point out is that software that protects user freedoms and is copylefted (like GPL) protect users because the source code is protected from being closed if it is distributed.
On the other hand some open source software (open as open access), like ASOP, give open access without any protection for the user freedoms. For example the BSD-3-Clause.
I prefer to use the term Free Software instead of Open Software, because it points out that the whole meaning behind the licence is to maintain source code freedoms. On the other hand Open software seems to defend the fact that the source code is open but not its freedoms.
Both OSS Open source and FSF Free software definition refer to mostly the same set of licences, which in order to distinguish you would need to check the particular details like copyleft, etc.
Free Software, Open Source, FOSS, FLOSS - same but different - FSFE
FSFE - Free Software Foundation Europeyoumaynotknow
in reply to Ulrich • • •viewports
in reply to Ulrich • • •It would be cool to see people move beyond the standard smartphone and into some sort of hotspot and linux based palmtop or umpc like setup
I had something like that in the early 2000s with a nokia n800 and it worked well enough I'm sure it would be even better now
Tydragon
in reply to Ulrich • • •It’s not daily-driver ready for everyone, but it frees you from Google and OEM lockdowns.
If we want an open mobile future, this is the project worth supporting.
ArmchairAce1944
in reply to Tydragon • • •StupidBrotherInLaw
in reply to Tydragon • • •pogmommy
in reply to StupidBrotherInLaw • • •postmarketOS - Open Collective
opencollective.comstrung6387
in reply to Tydragon • • •wowwoweowza
in reply to Ulrich • • •Mwa
in reply to Ulrich • • •also i am pretty sure Google cannot fully get rid of AOSP, especially Android is put on any phone that isn't Google.
tho even before the Goolog fuckery these things where there.
Samsung required a a leaked program to Unlock its bootloader(Odin which is proprietary), and would trip Knox.
Xiaomi required a wait time to unlock its bootloader, and the unlocking bootloader thingy is proprietary.
Banking apps wouldnt work with root and stuff, even before the Play Integrity API forcing thingy.
mr_right
in reply to Ulrich • • •indeed, android has been a shit show for the last couple of months and its not looking good.
i was thinking that this will make rooting and by extension custom ROMs prevalent again which hopefully will take us back to the golden age of android modding, but be careful of what you
wish for.
I DON'T WANNA USE STOCK ANDROID. DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA DON'T WANNA
Ulrich
in reply to mr_right • • •mr_right
in reply to Ulrich • • •i know that's why i'm seething right now, we are hopeless since custom roms and root users are a fraction of a fraction that is people who install apk outside google
removing the ability to unlock bootloaders is just another negative
TheLazyNerd
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to TheLazyNerd • • •Tortellinius
in reply to TheLazyNerd • • •Raptorox
in reply to Tortellinius • • •Tortellinius
in reply to Raptorox • • •Raptorox
in reply to Tortellinius • • •Tortellinius
in reply to Raptorox • • •sqgl
in reply to Raptorox • • •Raptorox
in reply to sqgl • • •I also don't know them in depth, but from what I do know:
Lineage is a tweaked AOSP, it doesn't have google apps by default but can use MindTheGapps or microG
/e/OS is either their own system or heavily modded android, iirc it uses microG by default (mG is by /e/ i think)
Graphene is a privacy-focused android mod that can use googl.e apps, but in a sandbox. Basically a separate space, where they don't have any access to outside data
So basically they all lack google by default, but with different ways to use apps that use google
sqgl
in reply to Raptorox • • •TheLazyNerd
in reply to Tortellinius • • •AnimalsDream
in reply to Ulrich • • •While I support the continued progress of real Linux phones, have a Pinephone, and even wasted all of yesterday trying to make a working build of Armbian for retro handheld I have; I think it's more practical to focus on open Android distributions, getting more phones out that can support multi os's and buying those, and growing a robust app market system that can compete with Google Play.
F-Droid is almost there, but being open-source doesn't mean something has to be free of charge. F-Droid should be extended, or possibly an additional app manager be established, that still promotes software freedom and privacy, but allows for devs to charge for their apps as well.
Ulrich
in reply to AnimalsDream • • •I just laid out how the entire Android ecosystem as a whole is in jeopardy. That was the entire point of the post.
AnimalsDream
in reply to Ulrich • • •Nothing that has or will happen can stop the parts of Android that are already open from remaining open. Yes there will be fewer choices. Yes this means alternative ROM makers will have no choice but to shoulder more of the development burden themselves. And yes this means there's going to be significantly fewer open Android devices and new manufacturers will have to make the intentional effort to make and sell new devices that are free by design - a few of which already exist.
But no matter how many obstacles open Android has, the thing you're ignoring is that it's still in a far better place than mobile Linux. For a start, any device that respects rights enough to be Linux compatible will automatically be compatible with free and degoogled versions of Android as well.
What these growing problems are is a galvanizing call. Samsung, Xiaomi, and OnePlus, and Google were never our friends. Whatever their imperfections, at least Pine64, Purism, BQ, Planet Computers, Murena, Fairphone, F(x)tec, Volla, and SHIFT have sold hardware that was rights respecting by design. We need more companies or other organizations to do that, and we need to choose to buy and promote more devices like that.
And as that happens more, open Android and Linux are going to benefit equally, but there's no getting around the fact that for now and the forseeable future, the open Android variants are still far more mature, far more feature-complete, way closer to the kind of user experience the vast majority of people expect, and far more established.
And again, probably the biggest missing thing we need there is an app marketplace that competes more directly with Google Play, that gives more devs good incentives to want to switch away from Play.
Ulrich
in reply to AnimalsDream • • •Not really relevant if future development stalls.
The thing you're ignoring is that Linux is continually progressing and improving while Android is regressing.
The hardware is irrelevant when the software is fundamentally broken.
AnimalsDream
in reply to Ulrich • • •No, in a lot of ways the open Android roms keep getting better, despite every possible obstacle being thrown in their way. It's easy to make a mature platform sound like it has "stalled", when you're comparing it to alternatives that are still so unusably bad that they have nowhere to go but up.
Do what you want, but get real. If you care more about making your ideals happen, maybe stop debating internet randos so feverishly, and start making pull requests.
Ulrich
in reply to AnimalsDream • • •It's not "stalled", it's regressing. I explained all of this in detail in the OP.
My brother in Christ, you came in here and debated me in my thread. I am not debating with myself here...
Did it ever occur to you that everyone is not a coder?
bonus_crab
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to bonus_crab • • •What does "that bad" mean? It gives Google ultimate control over what apps you can install on "your" phone. Essentially bringing it on PAR with Apple.
There are (currently) ways to distribute apps outside of Play Store on Android. So no. I don't even have a Google account anymore for them to associate with my payment information.
strung6387
in reply to Ulrich • • •Only if you're using Android, though. It makes sense to me that Google would want publishers of Android apps to be verified, since Google would face backlash if any attacker could publish Android apps anonymously.
Ulrich
in reply to strung6387 • • •...Yeah? That was my point. It's time to move away from Android.
I don't think you understand. This is the way it's always been, since the beginning of Android.
It may be what Google wants; as a user it is absolutely not what I want. It is not any of Google's business what I install on my device. If they want to provide it as a service and give users the option to opt out of it, I'm totally fine with that. As is, it sure looks like they just want more control, the same way Apple has. I'd be very unsurprised to see Google following in their footsteps in short order and requiring 27% of their income in order to be "verified", or blocking apps that compete with them, or making it so God Damn frustrating that developers just quit, as they have on the Play Store.
I Cast Fist
in reply to strung6387 • • •boonhet
in reply to strung6387 • • •This is about installing APKs, not apps downloaded from the Play Store. Which, by the way, also have no quality control. Publish a YouTube downloader and it gets taken down in 3 seconds. Make an app to steal people's data, perhaps even steal their money? Literally not an issue.
Google doesn't want you to be able to install a secure open source YouTube client that can ignore ads, or modified apps that can bypass ads they serve that 3rd party app developers put in. They do not give a fuck about attackers getting all your shit. They also don't want you using NextCloud if you could be using Google Drive - so rest assured, Nextcloud fuckery will now continue on APKs too, not just the Play Store verifications.
In all of this, Apple is in some ways better than what Google wants to do - only because Apple makes money off all devices that run iOS. So they don't really care if you use something like NextCloud instead of iCloud - they already made money off you, anything else is a bonus. Of course they do still want to keep you paying for shit and they don't want to be sued by Google for allowing ad-free youtube apps, so they're only marginally better.
bonus_crab
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to bonus_crab • • •I dunno, ask Apple, they've been getting away with it for 20 years.
phx
in reply to bonus_crab • • •I Cast Fist
in reply to Ulrich • • •At this point, the "best" solution might be buying one of those SBC (single board computers) that also has an android image, like orangePi or ODroid and "build" the rest of the phone on top of it. Might be the only way people can get a screen smaller than 6" as well. I say Android in this case because it has access to all the apps without needing emulation or Waydroid
OOOOORRRRR, just buy an used older phone that you know is easy to unlock and install a custom rom. Did that with a motorola G6, am happy with lineage. Not the fastest phone by a long shot, especially as newer versions of many apps just introduce more bloat because fuck you, but perfectly usable for messaging and video watching. Also has a headphone jack!
Ulrich
in reply to I Cast Fist • • •Raptorox
in reply to I Cast Fist • • •GitHub - V3lectronics/SPIRIT: Smartphone based on the Raspberry Pi CM 5.
GitHubkittenzrulz123
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ill address your issues with Android and then ill give my issues with mobile Linux:
::: spoiler 1
Yeah this is bad but not even devastating for custom roms like GOS or LineageOS
:::
::: spoiler 2
I highly doubt Google would lock the bootloader, they still make the most friendly devices for custom roms (yes even after all they have done). Also Samsung hasnt acturally allowed custom roms for a while now while Xiaomi doesn't either.
:::
::: spoiler 3
Even if a developer used the Play Integrity API it doesn't mean custom roms or other operating systems like GOS arent supported. I use GOS and have had no issues with play integrity, there are no incentives to require a certified Android device.
:::
::: spoiler 4
Sideloading isnt going anywhere and tbh I doubt this will be strongly enforced, Google will always have the threat of root resurfacing. You dont even need root to get rid of Google Play services and install MicroG.
:::
::: spoiler Conclusion
That seems highly unlikely, even with everything Google has done the fact is AOSP is the only mature open source mobile project.
:::
Now ill get to my issues with mobile Linux:
::: spoiler Hardware
As of now there is no good hardware and no plans by any company to make good hardware in the future.
:::
::: spoiler UI
Mobile Linux interfaces are at least a decade behind Android, clunky and bearly usable. Btw yes I have tried them recently, they suck. For the most part mobile Linux interfaces are made by developers who would never acturally daily drive them.
:::
::: spoiler Software support
Not a lot of Linux software supports arm and those that do either don't work with touchscreens or have them as an afterthought.
:::
::: spoiler UX
The software that does work generals isnt designed with small screens in mind and are very often scaled down desktop apps
:::
::: spoiler Basic functionality
Basic functionality is absolutely not there on Linux phones, things like calling and texing either require commands or outright dont work at all. For example according to the Postmarketos Wiki in order to change volume on a Pixel 3a during a call you need to manually change it with commands. Genuenly what the fuck, if im on an important call the other person isnt going to wait several hours for me to fiddle with the terminal. If I need to send a text now im not waiting several hours until it works.
:::
::: spoiler Security
Mobile Linux has all the security issues as Linux with no mitigations, except phones contain a lot more personal information and are more likley to be a target for data extraction.
:::
Samsung One UI Removed Bootloader Unlock – What It Means for Users in 2025
Pavithran (TrendsLife)Ulrich
in reply to kittenzrulz123 • • •Not yet. It's a concerning trend. It's certainly put a strain on their already-limited resources.
...why not?
They had unlocked bootloaders. Now they don't. That's all I can say about that.
That's...exactly what that means. That's the entire point.
Oh well I suppose if you have no issues, no one else is either? No. You're just not using the apps in question. But once again, it is a concerning growing trend. More and more apps are implementing it.
Why would Google lie about this?
As you might have read in the first sentence of the OP, I was not suggesting installing it now.
kittenzrulz123
in reply to Ulrich • • •Crozekiel
in reply to kittenzrulz123 • • •kittenzrulz123
in reply to Crozekiel • • •eclipse
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to eclipse • • •eclipse
in reply to Ulrich • • •pogmommy
in reply to eclipse • • •eclipse
in reply to pogmommy • • •amuck1924
in reply to Ulrich • • •So what is our alternative? I get that we need to start working on an actual viable open platform, but it seems like the difficulty is mostly hardware and device manufacturers locking the bootloader at this point, isn't it? So is that where we need to go? To make the "Raspberry Pi" of mobile phones?
I'm happy to help, I just don't have the free time to spearhead a whole project.
Ulrich
in reply to amuck1924 • • •amuck1924
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to amuck1924 • • •toastal
in reply to Ulrich • • •Matt
in reply to Ulrich • • •Seasm0ke
in reply to Ulrich • • •like this
metaStatic likes this.
Baldr
in reply to Ulrich • • •null_dot
in reply to Baldr • • •qx1vsx
in reply to Ulrich • • •null_dot
in reply to Ulrich • • •RiverRabbits
in reply to null_dot • • •null_dot
in reply to RiverRabbits • • •boovard
in reply to null_dot • • •nutbutter
in reply to boovard • • •Ulrich
in reply to boovard • • •Ulrich
in reply to null_dot • • •null_dot
in reply to Ulrich • • •I said it's android.
Its going to be a problem but it's not yet.
tomenzgg
in reply to Ulrich • • •I'm probably going to spam this around a bit, since most people don't seem to know about it, but a reminder that FuriLabs has a (GNU+)Linux phone with decent spec.s and the ability to run Android app.s (from what I've heard) pretty decently: furilabs.com/
Biggest drawback is it's based on Halium. Usual growing pains of a new product/company apply but apparently the company is pretty responsive and their dev.s have worked with customers to get things like calling working with the carrier and bands of their country where it hasn't worked before so improvements move pretty quickly.
Collection of different experiences I've variously seen online over the last year or so:
* clehaxze.tw/gemlog/2025/07-20-…
* news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4…
* reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1f…
* reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1j…
* theregister.com/2025/02/03/fur…
I don't own one, myself, so I can't give any personal experience but I've seen it around for a few years now but most people don't seem to even know about it. Maybe there's a reason for that? But none I've ever seen anyone say.
FuriPhone FLX1: A Debian-powered brick that puts GNOME in your back pocket
Liam Proven (The Register)yyprum
in reply to Ulrich • • •I've been a mobile dev for many years, I fell in love with the Nokia 810 with maemo which kinda got me started, but I never had one myself. I moved to OpenMoko and saved to buy a Neo. But then Android became big with Google's support and all companies rushing to have an alternative to iOS with the iPhone. Back then when Android meant openness. As much as I loved the openmoko project it had plenty of issues as a daily driver, so eventually I cracked and moved to Android with a Galaxy S2, ah, the innocence back then when one could think Google was actually different... Actually doing good and creating a great Linux phone.
I absolutely agree on all your points. It is time to kill Android as a free/open source idea if it is not dead yet. And you know what, Linux is absolutely ready to substitute anything as a mobile platform. It needs more polishing in terms of UI but Maemo nearly 20 years ago already offered a great UX IMO. Thank you Microsoft and all Nokia management for destroying it.
Now, I say Linux as a mobile platform is ready... But we all know it doesn't lack problems. What are those? The problems come from anticompetitive practices, locked hardware for chips, drivers and so on, specially all related to phone networking. The other main problem is apps which is only a small issue with all the ways there are available to make android apps run on Linux, that is... Until google comes to fuck things up with the points #3 and #4 you make. Those are the biggest threats right now, and it's no wonder Google is doing that. They are preventing the possibility of competition arising. Like I said, I have been a dev for many years, it absolutely sucks the path all tech is taking. But there are solutions, just need to have proper anticompetitive practices and protections... At least in Europe we kinda do, but more needs to be done.
The main point is, Linux as an alternative is kinda ready, if only there was a real posible competition to be had outside of being incredibly rich.
Taiwanese corporation that codeveloped Openmoko Linux
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Thevenin
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Thevenin • • •utopiah
in reply to Ulrich • • •The discussions here are quite passionate so a bit of a reality check :
"PineStore has also discontinued the PinePhone Pro which was talked about in the last recent blog post. TLDR, sales were low". pine64.org/2025/08/16/august_2…
So... people here say they do want one, but clearly not like that one.
Also recently the crowd funding of indiegogo.com/projects/liberux… barely reached 10% of €1,434,375 Fixed Goal with just 135 backers.
So... also clearly not that one either.
So what accelerated development do people not just want to claim they do want, but actually pay for?
August Update: Note-able Tablet Updates
PINE64Ulrich
in reply to utopiah • • •The suggestion was that we need it, not that a large number of people want it.
The software development really needs to happen before hardware sales. Pretty pointless without it.
https://anarchist.nexus/u/y0kai
in reply to Ulrich • • •My next phone will run Linux, even if it is inconvenient.
As soon as this phone is paid off, I'll be changing from Google Fi as well. Which sucks because it's hella cheap.
Marafon
in reply to • • •https://anarchist.nexus/u/y0kai
in reply to Marafon • • •I'm likely going to go to t-mobile as they're cheap from what I understand and they make up a big part of the network that google leases, along with (i think) US Cellular, or something similar.
That said, I've got about a year to decide, unless someone decides to hire me and then I can pay my phone off early.
Ulrich
in reply to • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Flagstaff • • •~~apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate.~~
I switched to Visible Wireless for now.
AmbiguousProps
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to AmbiguousProps • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Ulrich • • •Broken
in reply to Flagstaff • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Broken • • •Broken
in reply to Flagstaff • • •Is there a way to make the feed images big thumbnails like on thunder? I was looking around and didn't see a setting for that. That's really the only thing I'm not liking so far, everything else seems like an improvement.
Flagstaff
in reply to Broken • • •Broken
in reply to Flagstaff • • •Flagstaff
in reply to Broken • • •