Are you retarded? God's a fucking bedtime story for children. You're gonna die. You won't exist anymore. Get ready. But it also doesn't really matter because you won't care (because you will be dead) 👍
It's a widespread Islamic phrase but yes it stems from Arabic it means "God is greatest" and is often chanted in celebrations in Iran (and anywhere else with high Islamic influence)
Many Muslims will use Arabic for certain religious/symbolic purposes regardless of native language as the Quran was revealed in Arabic so it holds special purpose and unites the global Islamic community as they all can understand such phrases no matter where they live/which language they speak.
As I posted the above comment there were reports of Iranians shouting it to each other from the rooftops and thousands taking to the streets in groups to chant it despite the threat of Israeli attacks to celebrate Irans successful retaliation.
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The majority of Israelis supports the genocide of the Palestinians according to surveys and more than half of jewish Israelis support attacking Iran even without US support.
Doesn't the majority of Americans agree with Trump's immigration policy as well? Guess if the approval rating is > 50% we should just allow anyone to bomb the everliving shit out of any civilian no matter of their political view?
I'm in no fucking way in support for Israel, fuck them and the people supporting their actions, but I am also 100% against killing civilians anywhere. Not in Israel, not in Russia, not in Iran, not in Gaza.
The normalization of accepting civilian casualties because they belong to the "enemy" state is a fucking disgusting mindset we all need to get rid off as soon as possible.
The majority of the world is critical of ALL Americans now for Trump, he was elected twice, thant's on them all. Israelis have expressed majority support for this ongoing genocide and attacks on Iran, this is on them all. Bomb a soverign nation "pre emptively" get bombed back.
Fuck the entire Israeli government and anyone who supports it.
By that logic you could say that because there is an overwhelming support for outlawing LGBTQ rights in Iran and Gaza, Israel is fine with commiting their genocide because fuck anyone who wants to imprison or kill LGBTQ people, am I right?
Just stop fucking killing civilians, or cheer for the death of civilians, it's never morally correct. It's an act of terror, and any regime doing it should be classified as a terrorist regime.
Just to be clear, I am FINE, no, I even SUPPORT retaliatory strikes on Israel, but do it on military targets FFS. Bomb the everliving fuck out of Israel, but don't target civilians, there are plenty of tactical targets to choose from.
Ok, so what makes it OK to kill Israeli civilians but not Palestinian or Iranian? Where is the line drawn for when it's ok to kill civilians? Is the line exactly at supporting genocide? Is it OK as long as one side is worse than the other?
I have a co-worker who support Israel, should I just go ahead and stab them to death the next time I see them?
What's stopping you from going to the closest Israel apologist and shooting them in the face?
Please let me know what makes you accept civilian casualties of one kind but not the other.
I'll be back here with my insane and moronic reasoning of civilians being killed always being a bad thing.
Where did I mention it's ok to kill civilians? Are you as outraged at the tens of thousands of dead civilians in Gaza? When a country attacks a sovereign nation, they should expect retaliation. When the majority of that country backs genocide, I don't feel too much empathy.
I am far more outraged at the tens of thousands of dead civilians in Gaza, if I haven't made that clear by stating several times that Israel is committing fucking Genocide.
The comment I first wrote a reply to insinuated that because a majority of Israelis agree with the genocide, the Iranian strikes are valid despite targeting civilian locations. I am of the opinion that no side, ever, have validity in targeting civilians. I don't care what the majority thinks, if you don't partake in said genocide, I don't think you deserve to be targeted.
As I see it, you are arguing against me in targeting civilians being wrong. If that is not the case, its a misunderstanding. If it is the case, we are in disagreement.
Iran targetted military structures based in Tel Aviv, much like Israels claims, some collateral damage will happen. I am Lebanese and have lived through two Israeli wars on Lebanon, the 82 invasion and the 2006 July war. Israel targets journalists and medics and civilians constantly as I have witnessed first hand. I don't condone attacks on civilians, but when Israel is involved I have zero empathy. I used to, but now zero. I couldn't care less if the entire Israeli popluation live in shelters for decades until they behave like a normal country. They cannot tout being a democracy anymore and the wests support for Israel is disgusting.
I have complete understanding of your feelings on the subject and will not hold your reasoning against you, and just want to end with saying our feelings against Israel seem to be very much alike, with the exception of the subject of civilian casualties.
The rest would do the same. As they always have proven their entire miserable history. Singling out Netanyahoo is Bernie the sheepdog's tactics of dammage control
Israel didn't become an apartheid genocidal occupation of Palestinian land under Netanyahu. It's has been since its founding.
You're suggesting we close our eyes and pretend their entire history doesn't matter, that we just blame the current figurehead and his (variable but typically increasingly few) direct supporters.
Every government before him was the same, they're not 'hypothetical'. Ridiculous argument. What doesn't exist is a reality where the next government isn't brutally mistreating Palestine. Your hasbara is weak
First let's settle one thing, Israel has no right to exist. I'm against assuming 100% of the populace is all for the genocide. The majority government and their supporters clearly are.
The apartheid state of Israel needs to end. The genocide needs to be stopped by any means, except a genocide in return.
The entire majority government and their supporters can hang.
I'm not going to condem the rest for a "thought" crime they didn't commit. Maybe they would have done the same thing, maybe not.
Plenty of jews outside the apartheid state are against it. Those that live there, wether bcs of propaganda or a superiority complex don't. Maybe 5 to 10% maximum have normal views. You know what they say about people trying the same thing and expecting different results.
Idk man. If you’re a child, a unhoused, or a otherwise a person without the economic means to leave because your ancestors were settlers and you just so happened to be born in the colonized land, I’d consider you a civilian. I think your view is too black and white.
Screw you if you’re a deliberate Zionist benefiting from genocide though.
Israelis aren't walled in and prevented from leaving like Palestinians are in Gaza.
Israelis have no practical excuse to continue their occupation, especially when everyone is forced to serve in the IDF to actively aid the occupation rather than just passively.
As long as they are not on active duty, they shouldn't be targets. And if they are forced to serve, they should still only be killed if they are an active threat. Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Hope you're acting ironic and do not actually call to genocide all Jews in Israel.
Zionists are not Jewish people, they are actually against Judaism.
I believe it's the Talmud that says Israel cannot exist until the messiah returns. This is why you have many religious Jews in the US against the state of Israel.
There are more Christian Zionists than there are Jews in total.
"Zionists are mostly Jews" is an objectively false statement.
Maybe specifically in Israel the statement could be seen as true, but that's only because Israel is a jewish settler ethnostate, so most of almost any grouping would be a majority Jews.
Hope you're acting ironic by saying that you can commit a genocide, put your gun over the fireplace you murdered a family to steal, and suddenly not be a valid target.
It doesn't matter if you put your gun down as a settler colonizer. You're still actively engaging in the genocide. You are still a valid target.
And the objective of any just war is to expel you.
Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Get on a plane and go home. No one's stopping you. That's your opportunity.
How are you engaging in genocide if you do not take part in the war? And especially if you denounce the actions of your government? Is being born in Israel enough to be seen as a genocidal maniac?
I swear this "settler" discourse is gonna drive me crazy at some point.
How can you call me a robber just because I accepted all of these stolen goods that were stolen specifically for me to have?
Shut the fuck up holy god
Good. Go crazy. Shut the fuck up.
Is being born in Israel enough to be seen as a genocidal maniac?
If you join the IDF yes it fucking is. And why are you acting like this is something that happened at the dawn of history? These are not people who were born there. These are people who settled there because they were told they could murder people and steal their homes. Stop making ahistoric excuses for fucking fascists, you fucking fascist piece of shit.
In no way to be a snob, but could we tone it down? After all, we're mostly on the same page on that the state of Israel is committing war crimes, we only differ in who we blame for it.
Back to the substance:
First, Israel as an independent state exists since 1948, so yes, the absolute majority of people living in modern day Israel were born there; they are not the same people who came to displace Palestinians all those decades ago.
Second, I did not talk about IDF soldiers. Those who voluntarily joined Israeli armed forces do take part in an act of evil, and deserve to be judged. I do not support the same notion in respect to Israeli civilians and those on mandatory service.
Third, in your robber hypothetical, where are the Israeli civilians? Do they have to renounce their citizenship and go live abroad not to receive "stolen goods"? Someone who is opposed to the war taking place are not "robbers" here.
First, Israel as an independent state exists since 1948, so yes, the absolute majority of people living in modern day Israel were born there
Mind palace nonsense. Fuck you just saying shit so confidently. 50% of the jewish population emigrated since 2000.
Second, I did not talk about IDF soldiers. Those who voluntarily joined Israeli armed forces do take part in an act of evil, and deserve to be judged. I do not support the same notion in respect to Israeli civilians and those on mandatory service.
Literally learn the first fucking thing about the subject you're talking about before you open your dumb fucking mouth about it. Not even going to help you here. Shut up. Sit down. Listen. Read. But most importantly shut the fuck up.
hypothetical
Fucking nazi genocide denial
Someone who is opposed to the war taking place are not “robbers” here.
Again just speaking out of pure fucking mind palace ignorance. The jewish population of Isn'treal almost unanimously supports the extermination of the palestinians. You are arguing pure rhetoric outside of reality. That's why it's so important that you shut the fuck up
Most of your points can be readily disproved with a single search query, however, it's not worth engaging with a person who can't hold their temper for a second.
On July 11, Landau had to “work” through the night shooting Jews and Ukrainians. Nevertheless, he and a colleague still managed to find time between the killings to grab a snack of sour milk and new potatoes, while his “thoughts remained” with his Trudy.⁶² Early the following morning, he was back at work executing twenty-three men and women. Subsequently, Landau recorded, “Strange, I am completely unmoved. No pity, nothing.”
In Drunk on Genocide, Edward B. Westermann reveals how, over the course of the Third Reich, scenes involving alcohol consumption and revelry among the SS and police became a routine part of rituals of humiliation in the camps, ghettos, and killing fi…
I don’t want to talk ethics, but as a rule of thumb, winning a war is easier if you take out strategic targets than if you target civilians. Targeting civilians is what you do if your weapons aren’t precise enough to target tanks/planes etc.
The reason the US supports Israel is exactly because Israel is a settler-colony. They're part of the same genocidal settler project, Zionism is Manifest Destiny.
If landback wins in Israel the ones paying attention know that it's coming for them too.
But they didn't have to make a colony of European settlers to do that, did they? Egypt is a loyal collaborator with the US and it fulfills the same geostrategic goals, but the amount of support Egypt gets pales in comparison to Israel. Why is that?
We can't dismiss the ideological importance of Israel. The unlimited support of the 51st state is exactly because it is a settler-colony.
I don't see many ethnic Egyptians in places of power that can influence policy or get laws voted concerning their country. Egypt hasn't always been loyal, certainly not the population. They overthrew the previous puppet despite US efforts to keep him in place. When they saw it was hopeless they threw him under the bus and 'supported' the arab spring movement. In reality they hijacked the revolution and simply put another puppet in place.
Settler-colonialism isn't just about who is in power (although it is about that). That's just regular colonialism, like French Algeria.
Settler-colonialism is about importing settlers to replace the indigenous population while enacting genocidal policies to exterminate or expell the indigenous population. Egypt isn't experiencing that.
That's why Egypt doesn't get the level of support that Israel does.
This belief that Israel is a US controlled proxy has always vexed me. So-- honest question here-- From inside the US it appears that our entire political apparatus is controlled by a relatively small sprinkling of zionists doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US-- going all the way back to the Nakba. But theres always people (like yourself) on Lemmy and Reddit claiming Israel is a US creature under US control for US gain.
As an American my free speech ends and I get prosecuted if I say anything anti semitic. I CAN say racist things about anyone else, all I want as long as I dont start a riot.
Can you tell me why you are so certain zionism is controlled by the US (your understanding), not the US by rich zionists (my understanding)?
edit: Did you just ..downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.
The US and Israel have a partnership. While the zionist representation is very visible in US politics and creates the belief that they contol it it is not so. Can you honestly believe that if you objectively compare the two? A tiny country with a small population and a small army (despite again being disproportionally and relatively big) vs a huge country with the largest military in the world that was already a world power before the other even existed.
" doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US" Can you give an example?
If you're thinking now that the bad thing is israel may drag the US into war with Iran you're mistaken. That may happen but it's bcs it is the US intention to have war on Iran. They have provoked them many times all on their own without using the israel proxy. Hijacking ships, small attacks and unilaterally breaking the nuclear deal, etc. to increase tension.
Anyway here's a good article I recently read. Whatever is happening now has long been predicted.
"Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question."
I sometimes sleep, and never run away from a discussion if it's civil or useful. Which is rare here since .world is infested with reactionary clowns throwing insults and platitutes when they lose an argument.
A former U.S. secretary of state boasted, “Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk”. Journalist Ben Norton and economist Michael Hudson discuss why the United States so strongly supports Israel.
examples of whats good for Israel being bad for the US:
Our aligning with Israel during the Yom Kipur war (6 day war) caused Oil prices to quadruple, which caused a decade of turmoil in the US, and almost incalculable damage to our currency. And it never really recovered to a natural pattern. The US runs on oil.
macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil… See that massive bump up in 1973? I dont suppose you are old enough to remember interest rates in the 80s are you? it peaked at 21.5%. Thats catastrophic damage to the average US persons purchasing power. Wages didnt keep up with costs-- not even close. The Israeli's colonial war cost the US our middle class and created a massive underclass. We all paid for their war, that they claim was preemptive and unavoidable, and not their fault (just like their attack on Iran today).
And what was our reward for that? Did we gain any political leverage at all in that region? Bases? soft power? No. No we didnt. all we got was some of the blame for the Nakba, and some of the blame for the ridiculous levels persecution and murder of the Palestinian people. It was pure cost.
1990-1991 Desert storm Israel badly wanted Sadam Hussein removed. Iraq said they invaded Kuwait because Kuwait was slant drilling into their oil fields, which is true and was known at the time to be true. So we invaded and rescued a bunch of literal thieves-- and coincidentally destroyed a potent adversary of Israel. What did we gain? anything? Two air bases, and thats about it, at great cost. The government or Iraq is barely more friendly to us that they were before. I suppose we got CENTCOM established in Kuwait. So thas not nothing, but its darn close to nothing. Israel got a major enemy removed for them. They didnt join in desert storm-- and did not allow overflight of their territory during it. They are not, and never have been a real military ally. They court Russia as much as they do the US. Same as India.
9/11/2001. Bin Laden says he attacked the world trade centers in new york to bring US public eyes to the plight of the Palestinian people that their government was facilitating, but that Americans had no idea about. And what did our people do? Our government idiotically claimed "they hated us for our freedoms", and made a big show about not blaming all muslims, just some. What was America's gain there? And when the attack happened, Israelis in New York and Israel were caught on tape literally cheering about it and filming it.
Bin Ladens interview with PBS: pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/s… "The American imposes himself on everyone. Americans accuse our children in Palestine of being terrorists--those children, who have no weapons and have not even reached maturity. At the same time, Americans defend a country, the state of the Jews, that has a policy to destroy the future of these children."
Obviously no one condones or support what Bin Laden did, but lets be clear eyed in our foreign policy: was he incorrect in any way in his statement? I dont see how we can honestly say he was not being earnest -- to his point of view anyway. 9/11 and its outcomes would seem to be a massive, massive, massive cost to the United states in terms of hard power and soft, and added tremendously to our national debt burden. We have the TSA exactly because of Israel's murderous colonial adventurism. What of we'd simply show the muslim world the diplomatic respect of equals from the start? And he was right, zionism IS a policy of displacing the locals from their land however possible. Thats all it is. Its racist theft and murder. Its not self defense or justice, and it never has been.
And that brings us to today. We're literally sponsoring a genocide of innocents, for Israel's benefit. Its one of the most illegal and immoral things a country can possibly do.
The world HATES the US because of our stand with Israel. They now see us as almost as bad as Israel. Stupid. Easily manipulated. A global problem. This is as we have also been the main contributor to food aid and the stability of trade across the planet. Thats a cost. And what have we gotten out of it? Our funding of free weapons for shenangans and murder, and our vetoing every resolution that is about peace and justice in the region for Israeli gain costs us dearly. It makes every American traveler unsafe and unwelcome, and makes people not want to trade with us or listen to our opinions. It is destroying the concepts of democracy and the rules based order, and the concept os the western world itself. The world is ditching the dollar. I hope its all worth it for Israel to finish their genocide of innocents, who today have nothing. They are doing it for beachfront condos. They will not be any more secure after this.
And what does the US population gain for our support? Its not for any philosophical or moral reason, obviously. Israelis literally spit on christians they see in the street-- is that what friends and long term allies do? Does it indicate a "partnership"? What exactly does Israel provide to the US beyond campaign bribes through AIPAC? Intel on their enemies?
You're really shifting blame here and misrepresenting history. The US has done plenty of scumbaggery including some you put in pisrahells shoes. That's why they hate you and it's well deserved. You caused infinitely more deaths and miserythan the little coloniser entity.
No answer for any of it so you just deny all of it. So you're following hasbara patterns after all. Thats disappointing. Well at least we all know and you can stop pretending. Progress, at the cost of wasting a lot of my time.
ok? and your positions are clearly indefensible and hollow, to the point that you wont even begin to defend them beyond resorting to ad-homs. So you can just do the cowards walk of shame right on out of this conversation and go bore someone else with your tantrum.
You are the one from the coward country invariably bombing weddings from far away. Can't explain anything to someone who's american dumb and had crappy propagandised education and news on his banana republic. Waste of time, like explaining quantum theorie to a dog. Enjoy yor shithole, now fuck off
Uh huh. Except none of what I listed is as complex and theoretical as quantum theory.
You're just using that comparison as a dodge because you have no answer to what I laid out. 50 years of the US being continually shafted and getting nothing from our "partnership" with zionists has been a disaster for the US and it has to stop.
I don't. I only feel terrible for the ones who were opposed to these attacks on other countries. Most of them (if the statistics I've seen are to be believed) support the actions, so they deserve the consequences. Maybe these people dying horrifically will finally make others consider the value of lives.
It feels like there's reason to inflate those numbers both for Israel and Palestine. Do we know they're credible? Genuinely asking, I'm not sure from my cursory searx.
last time they were aiming for the mossad and military bases, resulting in zero civilian deaths, which Israel celebrate as a faliure because they only consider civilian deaths as the success metric.
Yep as is the one above. Look into these quotes and you’ll see the history of why the west are supporting this genocide with their actions even if outwardly they’re doing their best to obfuscate
Short version is that in WW1, the UK conquered Palestine from the Ottoman empire. 1922-1948, the British ran the territory, getting shot at regularly by both native Arabs, the tiny number of native Jews, and the comparatively much larger group of immigrant Jews. In the 1940s, the UK asked for and got US help with counterterrorist operations, especially against Jewish ones. Arabs and Jews pinky promised to play nice with each other if the UK left, so rather than continue getting shot by everyone in the region, they left. Arabs and Jews immediately started a war as soon as the UK army left. Then, every single neighbouring country attacked the newly formed Israel, which they somehow survived.
(Missing HUGE amounts of context and nuance here, obviously)
Yup. Did specifically say that I was missing tons of stuff in that super short summary of the formation of Israel. Also left out the Balfour declaration, the White Paper of 1939, the Buraq uprising, the Black Hand, Lehi and their attempted alliance with Nazi Germany, and much much more.
Just look up the history of Israel before it was given statehood and of Zionism. Here is a good article by the Guardian. warning, it's a very complicated situation, all in all, and this article really gets into the nitty gritty of history. Literally, deep into it. It's some heavy reading.
Boiled down though...
After the defeat of the Ottomans and their empire partitioned off to various countries after the Sinai and Palestine campaigns of WW1, the British were given control via a mandate by the League of Nations over a territory that became known as the Mandate of Palestine, but it was still mostly Arab citizens, the British were just given authority to maintain order in the region.
During the years of occupation, the British government encouraged European Jews to settle the region in an effort to fulfill political obligations to the Zionist movement made at what is known as the Balfour Declaration. This caused a civil war to break out over the whole colonization thing.
With the end of the Mandate over the region drawing to an end, and the tensions of the area heightened after civil war, the U.N. voted to subdivide the Mandate of Palestine into two separate states: Palestine and Israel
That link starts off saying this is an article from 24 years ago, and I’m thinking wow, a cool chance to read an article from the 70s, and then I see the date reads 2001!
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The British restricted Jewish, particularly Zionist, immigration to Palestine towards the end of the Mandate. And abstained from voting for the creation of the partition at the UN.
Yea, they say they restricted the Jewish immigrants. Yet, if you read the article posted in my other comment, you'd see that their actions during the time period of their mandate speaks a different tale.
Them abstaining from the vote is purely performative, and doesn't negate the rest of what they did to facilitate the colonization of Palestine.
Oh poor Israel thought Iron Dome will protect them. Iran learned a lot from Ukraine. Drones in masses are enough to penetrate the shield. And don’t forget that the Iron Dome costs Israel 1 billion USD for each night in full defence mode. It only takes a couple of days, weeks until the Iron Dome is empty.
I meant more politically and materially than just monetarily.
If we cut social programs at home and continue to send/ ramp up even more billions to support Israel it will just create even more unrest, which is already at a low boil.
We also don't have unlimited manufacturing capabilities. How much material can we sacrifice without weakening our own access to these resources.
While there’s infinite money, there’s very limited industrial capacity, because the US de-industrialized itself. The US and Europe combined already can’t keep Ukraine supplied.
Given the political climate, money isn't really the issue. The issue is how many THAAD missiles do we have stockpiled, how fast can we make them, and how fast can we ship them?
Where are you getting this $1B figure? It appears the main cost is rockets, which run about $50k per. $1B would account for launching 20,000 rockets. There are 10 batteries in Israel with at most 80 rockets each, so a maximum of 800 rockets. That means 25 reloads a day. Is it really burning through that many rockets daily or is there more to this?
This. And all the repairs. Also we’re talking here about military stuff. You don’t use FedEx to ship that. Military personell + equipment is expensive as fuck. Efficiency is not of priority.
Know that US gives fake loans (forgiven the same day) for all IDF expenses. This is somehow not part of US miitary budget even though they pay for everything.
That's hardly a reasonable comparison though is it? The allies during WW2 were mostly functioning democracies. This conflict is a theocratic dictatorship which treats women as second class citizens and executes homosexuals vs a fascist regime which is currently engaged in a genocide. Both sides are fucking evil and to celebrate one over the other is ignorant.
That’s hardly a reasonable comparison though is it?
It's entirely reasonable, you just have a white supremacist double standard.
The allies during WW2 were mostly functioning democracies.
The vast majority of the British Empire couldn't vote and were considered lesser beings. The US had racial inequality inshrined into law and a habit of murdering minorities. The USSR I leave as an exercise to the reader.
This conflict is a theocratic dictatorship
I assume you mean Israel.
which treats women as second class citizens
Lol, the WW2 allies absolutely treated women as second class citizens, and criminalised homosexuality. Its also ghoulish the way westerners go "these countries treat minorities badly, so it's ok to kill them (including the minorities). Ukraine isn't perfect about minorities either, do you use that to say they deserve to get invaded? Oh wait, Ukraine in white.
Both sides are fucking evil and to celebrate one over the other is ignorant.
The British Empire was more evil than Iran by multiple orders of magnitude, yet for some reason (white supremacy) you don't take this stance on WW2
Churchill voted greatest Briton of all times in 2016. A white supremacist who used the slogan 'keep Britain white'. Called Jews 'hebrew bloodsuckers' and has murdered millions
And it's the same people who voted him that who are now condemning Iran and defending Israel. Whatever ideology they claim to possess, the one they actually practice is white supremacy.
The USSR was a functioning democracy, moreso than its peer countries. Rather than being entirely decided by Capital, the Soviets extended democratic input to the economic sector. Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan and This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong are both good first-hand accounts.
It certainly wasn't perfect, either, but it was a dramatic improvement on Capitalism. Zhenli has a good article on contextualizing some of the failures of democracy in early Socialism, as well as pointing out how western leftists often let the perfect Socialism in their heads be the enemy of the flawed but really existing Socialism in the real world, that faces real struggles thanks to being a really existing system.
Often I am asked, “why did Marxism-Leninism fail to bring the workers’ paradise into existence?” Sometimes people respond to this by pointing to the democratic benefits Marxist-Leninist countries…
I'm not sure why you're thinking that I was making any kind of values judgment about the USSR whatsoever (honestly, don't really feel like getting into it with a tankie right now). All I said was that they weren't democratic (they weren't dude), and they were probably our most important ally during WW2.
My point was about the USSR being democratic, which is historically true. They held elections, decided economic decisions collectively, and extended democracy not just from the realm of deciding which bourgeois politician or party represents you to the economic and political sectors governing policy and direction. A simple "they weren't dude" doesn't disprove historical fact.
Unless, of course, your parameters for deciding if something is democratic or not is decided by vibes, there's really no reason to call it undemocratic. As an overall measure of material functions of democracy, the USSR was more democratic than the major powers of the allies and axis during World War II. They certainly had flaws with their democracy, hence the inclusion on my part of Zhenli's essay, but these flaws weren't because they had the "wrong recipe," but because democracy is a material structure that needs to be built.
As for the "tankie" jab, I'm not going to apologize for being a Marxist. I agree that they were the most important force in World War II, but I disagree with your characterization of their democracy, hence why I offered sources for you or onlookers to read into to learn more. The opening of the Soviet Archives has only affirmed these primary sources as accurate, and the Zhenli essay helps us reframe how we think about building democratic structures in general.
Iran ranks 3rd in the world in numbers of engineers. 70% of them are women. 'The second class citizens' is exagerated, and often simply lies for propaganda purposes, like the Mahsa Amini case. The last execution of homosexuals was 20 years ago, and this was for rape, not bcs homosexuality.
Yes many islamic countries have issues, and these are the typical hasbara machine's ammo: "Let us genocide the Palestinians bcs they hate the gays!"
Also your WW2 'democracies' were - and still are in many cases - colonisers and looters of a large part of the world.
I get what you're saying but you couldn't have chosen a worse example... Like yeah absolutely fuck Churchill lol, he's a huge part of the reason why we're in this mess with Israel now
Sure, you have a point, just wanted to remind people that western European countries enacted many genocides to similar scale than Nazi Germany (or greater)
Still I would have rooted for Churchill when it comes to the conflict of Nazi Germany versus Britain because I am able to separate actions from blindly supporting everything.
Iran too did absolutely horrible things in the past They sent a lot of children to die during their war with Iraq. The Mahsa Amani stuff everyone keeps bringing up is so lightweight but Western propagaganda is the dumbest stuff.
However, currently Iran is aiding Palestine and fighting Israel and they are not sending children to die for it. So I support that action.
Iran is not nearly as bad as Israel. A world where Iran loses and Israel loses would be a dramatic loss for the people of Iran, while if Israel loses and Iran maintains its sovereignty the people of Iran can chart their own destiny, rather than being dominated by the US and terrorized by Israel. All of this not even mentioning the cessation of the genocide of Palestine.
Yeah, when I said that I didn't really adequately consider what would actually come of Iran being crippled. Civilian rule is not the likely outcome of Iran being defeated.
And Iran isn't as bad as Israel, I agree, but that's a pretty low bar.
A low bar it may be, but as you said in the beginning, a toppled Iran would end up like a toppled Iraq - utterly devastated and all of the flaws that existed pre-Iraq War seem like beauty marks after the genocidal US invasion.
People need to chart their own destiny, free from terrorization backed by the US Empire. Without that pressure, social movements in Iran have more room to breathe without fearing rocket-fire from Israel.
What would that look like? Trying to help Israel destroy Iran, allowing the US and Israel to sweep in and commit genocide against them like the US did with Iraq? The Iranian state is what currently stands between the people and utter devastation, even if that state is flawed, without it the people of Iran have no destiny to speak of. If revolution comes to Iran, it should be on Iranian terms, not on westerners whose regimes benefit from Israeli aggression against Iran.
Iran is a flawed state, certainly, but if Israel succeeds then they will succeed in killing far more women and queer people than the Iranian state could ever hope to execute, along with cisgender folk, liberals, etc. This is pinkwashing. As a queer person myself, this type of rhetoric is just Imperialist apologia, the path to queer liberation of Iranians would be dramatically pushed backwards if Israel succeeds in destroying Iran.
Further, yes, Iran is necessary to stop the genocide in Palestine at this moment. When Western countries are all condemning Iran and backing Israel, it is the Global South that backs Iran. Gazans are cheering, Yemeni people are watching the bombings of Tel Aviv on the big screen. Israel has been the single greatest obstacle in queer liberation in the Middle East as the fomenter of chaos, genocide, and destabilization.
Why is it that queer liberation happens in some countries, and not others? When does it happen? Social progress is a product of economic development and liberation of the Working Class. Bombing Iran and creating a failed state would result in thousands of deaths of queer Iranians, children, and many more.
Do some self-crit. You're caping for Israel and advocating for the country doing the most to oppose genocide to collapse.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
fucking trigger happy Netanyahu should be publicly dragged behind a chariot until he dies for his genocidal crimes and bringing the world to the brink of third world war.
Not 'every' land but I get the point. Still it doesn't compare and there's no excuse. In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide. They are not 'citizens' but colonisers. They deserve all they get, what they don't deserve is sympathy.
I'll deliver this reply in Choose Your Own Adventure Format:
If you want to make a reference to Donald Trump being at his birthday parade and thus exposed, vulnerable and in the open and presently not looking up, turn to page 89.
If you rather make a reference to how we should leave the Devil be because the Devil himself is more respectable and honorable than any of these monstrous despots who murder out of spite and wrap themselves in scripture, turn to page 322.
I would disagree. If you go back far enough, every land has been stolen. There is probably no piece of land that hasn't been held by multiple different groups over time.
I'd also argue a government existing at all is stolen land. What gives them the right to the land, instead of the people using it as they want? At some point someone decided the land was theirs, and not someone else's, and decided they could sell, lend, or use the land as they want, even if someone else also wanted to use it.
Before colonialism, empires would conquer lands and then just make the people who already live there into their subjects.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren't really organized enough to steal land (and weren't embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They'd just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren't really organized enough to steal land (and weren't embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They'd just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
Yeah, that's my point. At one point in time land wasn't something owned, just something utilized. The fact that governments exert control over them implies they were stolen, as it prevents some people from utilizing it. See: Proudhon - What is Property?
Okay, you need to recognize that there are greater and lesser contradictions. Yes, all property is theft, but is that a useful line for Palestinians to struggle against? Can they even meaningfully abolish property without solving the colonial question?
That's why we say the colonial question is the primary contradiction. Israelis are colonial invaders that have come to steal the land and expel or kill the indigenous population. This is a greater concern than, say, Palestinian business owners owning property (and thus stealing the land from the Commons). If we don't focus our struggles and identify the primary contradiction, we just lash out at every injustice all at once and accomplish nothing because we are overwhelmed.
Every successful decolonial struggle for national independence involves cooperation between the landless and the landed, because colonialism takes primacy. We can deal with the question of "who gets to own the land" once the invaders are gone.
In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide. They are not ‘citizens’ but colonisers. It's not an unfortunate fait accompli like the US that eradicated the original inhabitants for instance.
Yes, all property is theft, but is that a useful line for Palestinians to struggle against? Can they even meaningfully abolish property without solving the colonial question?
I never said that, though "the colonial question" is solved if you abolish property, so it's still worth considering, even in this context.
Israelis are colonial invaders that have come to steal the land and expel or kill the indigenous population. This is a greater concern than, say, Palestinian business owners owning property (and thus stealing the land from the Commons).
Yes, and the whole system is built on ownership of property. Addressing the surface level issue (colonizer stealing land) is great, but you should also consider the root cause. If they can't own land then there's no colonization. It's worth looking at both of these and fighting both. If there is to be a system enacted (which currently is no where close to happening, but still needs to be a consideration), it should be one that protects people and prevents exploitation, so this doesn't happen again.
We can deal with the question of "who gets to own the land" once the invaders are gone.
It's too late to do it then. That's how you have a revolution collapse into something horrible; it didn't have a plan for what comes after. The people struggling to just survive don't need to consider this, but it does need to be considered. If you wait until after it's done then you just end up with squabbling, and the group who can exert control takes it without consent.
Great news hopefully we see more strikes on the bloodthirsty jizzrael, Iran has the right to defend itself, the fucking rat netanyahoo fled to Greece to avoid retaliation coward zionazi cunt
If he's in the EU can he not get arrested? I thought there was an EU-wide arrest warrant in his name for war crimes? Or have I just made that up? I never double checked. It was something I've just thought existed. Obviously not..
It's an order of operations. If they try to resolve every contradiction all at the same time they stretch the revolution too thin and drive all of their enemies into one unified front.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't even think about the other contradictions (in fact, progressive forces should internally theorize and strategize in secret about what to do after the colonial occupation is defeated) but it does mean that those secondary contradictions are to be set aside in public while they focus on the primary contradiction.
Now isn't the time to air the dirty laundry of everyone that's on your side against the occupation.
Obviously propertied interests are going to be a problem after the occupation is defeated, but until the occupation is defeated they can used. Not only does this increase the power and size of the decolonial struggle by creating a unified front, but without that ability to set aside secondary contradictions those propertied interests will join the occupation's side instead. Those propertied interests are only using the revolutionaries for their own ends, but progressive forces are only using them in turn.
This is how every successful decolonial struggle was won.
Many decolonial struggles only achieved flag independence and failed to achieve sovereignty because they either failed to identify those secondary contradictions or chose to forget the secondary contradictions in their nationalistic fervor, but that's not what I'm advocating! Once the occupation is defeated one of those secondary contradictions will become the new primary contradiction, and progressive forces will need to be prepared for that.
But that has to wait. In the immediate struggle, everyone has a common enemy.
For the first part of your post, where am I saying they need to focus on this now? I think I specifically said they don't actually. However, we're on an internet forum and it's good to talk about these topics. No one is trying to divert the focus to this in totality. We are not part of either of these groups (I'm assuming). Can you stop acting like this shouldn't be brought up?
happybadger [he/him]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
geneva_convenience likes this.
YappyMonotheist
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •DontMakeMoreBabies
in reply to YappyMonotheist • • •YappyMonotheist
in reply to DontMakeMoreBabies • • •DontMakeMoreBabies
in reply to YappyMonotheist • • •YappyMonotheist
in reply to DontMakeMoreBabies • • •mesitoispro
in reply to DontMakeMoreBabies • • •Depending on your understanding, the concept of god can be very real.
It's not a uniform idea across cultures and beliefs.
Kbobabob
in reply to mesitoispro • • •IttihadChe
in reply to DontMakeMoreBabies • • •As the Iranians are shouting currently:
"Allahu Akbar!"
humanspiral
in reply to IttihadChe • • •IttihadChe
in reply to humanspiral • • •It's a widespread Islamic phrase but yes it stems from Arabic it means "God is greatest" and is often chanted in celebrations in Iran (and anywhere else with high Islamic influence)
Many Muslims will use Arabic for certain religious/symbolic purposes regardless of native language as the Quran was revealed in Arabic so it holds special purpose and unites the global Islamic community as they all can understand such phrases no matter where they live/which language they speak.
As I posted the above comment there were reports of Iranians shouting it to each other from the rooftops and thousands taking to the streets in groups to chant it despite the threat of Israeli attacks to celebrate Irans successful retaliation.
LaserTurboShark69
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •FunkyStuff [he/him]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •- YouTube
www.youtube.comBigMacHole
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Frenchfryenjoyer (she/her)
in reply to BigMacHole • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Kuori [she/her]
in reply to BodyBySisyphus [he/him] • • •Anomalocaris
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •sudo_halt
in reply to Anomalocaris • • •ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Ilixtze
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •gandalf_der_12te
in reply to Ilixtze • • •okgurl
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •goferking (he/him)
in reply to okgurl • • •SupaTuba
in reply to okgurl • • •like this
Oofnik likes this.
bus_factor
in reply to SupaTuba • • •SupaTuba
in reply to bus_factor • • •Lileath
in reply to SupaTuba • • •HERRAX
in reply to Lileath • • •Doesn't the majority of Americans agree with Trump's immigration policy as well? Guess if the approval rating is > 50% we should just allow anyone to bomb the everliving shit out of any civilian no matter of their political view?
I'm in no fucking way in support for Israel, fuck them and the people supporting their actions, but I am also 100% against killing civilians anywhere. Not in Israel, not in Russia, not in Iran, not in Gaza.
The normalization of accepting civilian casualties because they belong to the "enemy" state is a fucking disgusting mindset we all need to get rid off as soon as possible.
It'sbetterwithbutter
in reply to HERRAX • • •The majority of the world is critical of ALL Americans now for Trump, he was elected twice, thant's on them all. Israelis have expressed majority support for this ongoing genocide and attacks on Iran, this is on them all.
Bomb a soverign nation "pre emptively" get bombed back.
Fuck the entire Israeli government and anyone who supports it.
HERRAX
in reply to It'sbetterwithbutter • • •By that logic you could say that because there is an overwhelming support for outlawing LGBTQ rights in Iran and Gaza, Israel is fine with commiting their genocide because fuck anyone who wants to imprison or kill LGBTQ people, am I right?
Just stop fucking killing civilians, or cheer for the death of civilians, it's never morally correct. It's an act of terror, and any regime doing it should be classified as a terrorist regime.
Just to be clear, I am FINE, no, I even SUPPORT retaliatory strikes on Israel, but do it on military targets FFS. Bomb the everliving fuck out of Israel, but don't target civilians, there are plenty of tactical targets to choose from.
It'sbetterwithbutter
in reply to HERRAX • • •Fuck the zionist bastard Israelis and fuck the Iranian regime.
But Fuck the Israeli zionists more.
HERRAX
in reply to It'sbetterwithbutter • • •Ok, so what makes it OK to kill Israeli civilians but not Palestinian or Iranian? Where is the line drawn for when it's ok to kill civilians? Is the line exactly at supporting genocide? Is it OK as long as one side is worse than the other?
I have a co-worker who support Israel, should I just go ahead and stab them to death the next time I see them?
What's stopping you from going to the closest Israel apologist and shooting them in the face?
Please let me know what makes you accept civilian casualties of one kind but not the other.
I'll be back here with my insane and moronic reasoning of civilians being killed always being a bad thing.
It'sbetterwithbutter
in reply to HERRAX • • •When a country attacks a sovereign nation, they should expect retaliation. When the majority of that country backs genocide, I don't feel too much empathy.
HERRAX
in reply to It'sbetterwithbutter • • •I am far more outraged at the tens of thousands of dead civilians in Gaza, if I haven't made that clear by stating several times that Israel is committing fucking Genocide.
The comment I first wrote a reply to insinuated that because a majority of Israelis agree with the genocide, the Iranian strikes are valid despite targeting civilian locations. I am of the opinion that no side, ever, have validity in targeting civilians. I don't care what the majority thinks, if you don't partake in said genocide, I don't think you deserve to be targeted.
As I see it, you are arguing against me in targeting civilians being wrong. If that is not the case, its a misunderstanding. If it is the case, we are in disagreement.
Peace out ✌️
It'sbetterwithbutter
in reply to HERRAX • • •I am Lebanese and have lived through two Israeli wars on Lebanon, the 82 invasion and the 2006 July war. Israel targets journalists and medics and civilians constantly as I have witnessed first hand.
I don't condone attacks on civilians, but when Israel is involved I have zero empathy. I used to, but now zero. I couldn't care less if the entire Israeli popluation live in shelters for decades until they behave like a normal country. They cannot tout being a democracy anymore and the wests support for Israel is disgusting.
HERRAX
in reply to It'sbetterwithbutter • • •I have complete understanding of your feelings on the subject and will not hold your reasoning against you, and just want to end with saying our feelings against Israel seem to be very much alike, with the exception of the subject of civilian casualties.
I wish you a very nice weekend!
It'sbetterwithbutter
in reply to HERRAX • • •sudo_halt
in reply to SupaTuba • • •SupaTuba
in reply to sudo_halt • • •Bloomcole
in reply to bus_factor • • •As they always have proven their entire miserable history.
Singling out Netanyahoo is Bernie the sheepdog's tactics of dammage control
arrow74
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Blaming the government in power and those who put them in power for the actions taken by the government is totally reasonable.
You're suggesting well "what about a hypothetical government that doesn't exist huh?". That doesn't matter. They don't exist. Blame the government
IttihadChe
in reply to arrow74 • • •Israel didn't become an apartheid genocidal occupation of Palestinian land under Netanyahu. It's has been since its founding.
You're suggesting we close our eyes and pretend their entire history doesn't matter, that we just blame the current figurehead and his (variable but typically increasingly few) direct supporters.
Bloomcole
in reply to arrow74 • • •What doesn't exist is a reality where the next government isn't brutally mistreating Palestine.
Your hasbara is weak
arrow74
in reply to Bloomcole • • •First let's settle one thing, Israel has no right to exist. I'm against assuming 100% of the populace is all for the genocide. The majority government and their supporters clearly are.
The apartheid state of Israel needs to end. The genocide needs to be stopped by any means, except a genocide in return.
The entire majority government and their supporters can hang.
I'm not going to condem the rest for a "thought" crime they didn't commit. Maybe they would have done the same thing, maybe not.
Bloomcole
in reply to arrow74 • • •I hope you are being naive.
aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/9/p…
timesofisrael.com/poll-half-of…
Plenty of jews outside the apartheid state are against it.
Those that live there, wether bcs of propaganda or a superiority complex don't.
Maybe 5 to 10% maximum have normal views.
You know what they say about people trying the same thing and expecting different results.
Poll: 53% Israelis support extrajudicial killings
Al JazeeraIttihadChe
in reply to SupaTuba • • •AntiOutsideAktion
in reply to SupaTuba • • •lenz
in reply to AntiOutsideAktion • • •Idk man. If you’re a child, a unhoused, or a otherwise a person without the economic means to leave because your ancestors were settlers and you just so happened to be born in the colonized land, I’d consider you a civilian. I think your view is too black and white.
Screw you if you’re a deliberate Zionist benefiting from genocide though.
IttihadChe
in reply to lenz • • •Israelis aren't walled in and prevented from leaving like Palestinians are in Gaza.
Israelis have no practical excuse to continue their occupation, especially when everyone is forced to serve in the IDF to actively aid the occupation rather than just passively.
Allero
in reply to AntiOutsideAktion • • •As long as they are not on active duty, they shouldn't be targets. And if they are forced to serve, they should still only be killed if they are an active threat. Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Hope you're acting ironic and do not actually call to genocide all Jews in Israel.
Tiger666
in reply to Allero • • •No, but all Israelis that are zionists maybe.
Zionists are not Jewish people, they are actually against Judaism.
I believe it's the Talmud that says Israel cannot exist until the messiah returns. This is why you have many religious Jews in the US against the state of Israel.
Zionists are the one and only antisemites.
Allero
in reply to Tiger666 • • •Zionists are mostly Jews, but Jews are mostly not Zionists.
But yes, according to Talmud, Israel shouldn't exist.
Tiger666
in reply to Allero • • •IttihadChe
in reply to Allero • • •There are more Christian Zionists than there are Jews in total.
"Zionists are mostly Jews" is an objectively false statement.
Maybe specifically in Israel the statement could be seen as true, but that's only because Israel is a jewish settler ethnostate, so most of almost any grouping would be a majority Jews.
AntiOutsideAktion
in reply to Allero • • •Hope you're acting ironic by saying that you can commit a genocide, put your gun over the fireplace you murdered a family to steal, and suddenly not be a valid target.
It doesn't matter if you put your gun down as a settler colonizer. You're still actively engaging in the genocide. You are still a valid target.
And the objective of any just war is to expel you.
Get on a plane and go home. No one's stopping you. That's your opportunity.
Allero
in reply to AntiOutsideAktion • • •How are you engaging in genocide if you do not take part in the war? And especially if you denounce the actions of your government? Is being born in Israel enough to be seen as a genocidal maniac?
I swear this "settler" discourse is gonna drive me crazy at some point.
AntiOutsideAktion
in reply to Allero • • •How can you call me a robber just because I accepted all of these stolen goods that were stolen specifically for me to have?
Shut the fuck up holy god
Good. Go crazy. Shut the fuck up.
If you join the IDF yes it fucking is. And why are you acting like this is something that happened at the dawn of history? These are not people who were born there. These are people who settled there because they were told they could murder people and steal their homes. Stop making ahistoric excuses for fucking fascists, you fucking fascist piece of shit.
Allero
in reply to AntiOutsideAktion • • •In no way to be a snob, but could we tone it down? After all, we're mostly on the same page on that the state of Israel is committing war crimes, we only differ in who we blame for it.
Back to the substance:
First, Israel as an independent state exists since 1948, so yes, the absolute majority of people living in modern day Israel were born there; they are not the same people who came to displace Palestinians all those decades ago.
Second, I did not talk about IDF soldiers. Those who voluntarily joined Israeli armed forces do take part in an act of evil, and deserve to be judged. I do not support the same notion in respect to Israeli civilians and those on mandatory service.
Third, in your robber hypothetical, where are the Israeli civilians? Do they have to renounce their citizenship and go live abroad not to receive "stolen goods"? Someone who is opposed to the war taking place are not "robbers" here.
AntiOutsideAktion
in reply to Allero • • •Mind palace nonsense. Fuck you just saying shit so confidently. 50% of the jewish population emigrated since 2000.
Literally learn the first fucking thing about the subject you're talking about before you open your dumb fucking mouth about it. Not even going to help you here. Shut up. Sit down. Listen. Read. But most importantly shut the fuck up.
Fucking nazi genocide denial
Again just speaking out of pure fucking mind palace ignorance. The jewish population of Isn'treal almost unanimously supports the extermination of the palestinians. You are arguing pure rhetoric outside of reality. That's why it's so important that you shut the fuck up
Allero
in reply to AntiOutsideAktion • • •Most of your points can be readily disproved with a single search query, however, it's not worth engaging with a person who can't hold their temper for a second.
Therapy does magic.
AntiOutsideAktion
in reply to Allero • • •You know what you call someone who remains placid and unphased in the face of a genocide?
A Nazi.
A Nazi that believes The Secret works on reality retroactively
Wonder how you easily disprove the genocide denial you committed in this thread...?
Anarcho-Bolshevik
in reply to AntiOutsideAktion • • •(Source.)
Drunk on Genocide
Google BooksEatspancakes84
in reply to AntiOutsideAktion • • •Bloomcole
in reply to SupaTuba • • •queermunist she/her
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Bloomcole
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •The most navel staring country on the planet
queermunist she/her
in reply to Bloomcole • • •The reason the US supports Israel is exactly because Israel is a settler-colony. They're part of the same genocidal settler project, Zionism is Manifest Destiny.
If landback wins in Israel the ones paying attention know that it's coming for them too.
Bloomcole
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •queermunist she/her
in reply to Bloomcole • • •But they didn't have to make a colony of European settlers to do that, did they? Egypt is a loyal collaborator with the US and it fulfills the same geostrategic goals, but the amount of support Egypt gets pales in comparison to Israel. Why is that?
We can't dismiss the ideological importance of Israel. The unlimited support of the 51st state is exactly because it is a settler-colony.
Bloomcole
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •Egypt hasn't always been loyal, certainly not the population.
They overthrew the previous puppet despite US efforts to keep him in place.
When they saw it was hopeless they threw him under the bus and 'supported' the arab spring movement.
In reality they hijacked the revolution and simply put another puppet in place.
queermunist she/her
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Settler-colonialism isn't just about who is in power (although it is about that). That's just regular colonialism, like French Algeria.
Settler-colonialism is about importing settlers to replace the indigenous population while enacting genocidal policies to exterminate or expell the indigenous population. Egypt isn't experiencing that.
That's why Egypt doesn't get the level of support that Israel does.
Bloomcole
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •I disagree.
kreskin
in reply to Bloomcole • • •This belief that Israel is a US controlled proxy has always vexed me.
So-- honest question here-- From inside the US it appears that our entire political apparatus is controlled by a relatively small sprinkling of zionists doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US-- going all the way back to the Nakba. But theres always people (like yourself) on Lemmy and Reddit claiming Israel is a US creature under US control for US gain.
As an American my free speech ends and I get prosecuted if I say anything anti semitic. I CAN say racist things about anyone else, all I want as long as I dont start a riot.
Can you tell me why you are so certain zionism is controlled by the US (your understanding), not the US by rich zionists (my understanding)?
edit: Did you just ..downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.
Bloomcole
in reply to kreskin • • •The US and Israel have a partnership.
While the zionist representation is very visible in US politics and creates the belief that they contol it it is not so.
Can you honestly believe that if you objectively compare the two?
A tiny country with a small population and a small army (despite again being disproportionally and relatively big) vs a huge country with the largest military in the world that was already a world power before the other even existed.
" doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US"
Can you give an example?
If you're thinking now that the bad thing is israel may drag the US into war with Iran you're mistaken.
That may happen but it's bcs it is the US intention to have war on Iran.
They have provoked them many times all on their own without using the israel proxy.
Hijacking ships, small attacks and unilaterally breaking the nuclear deal, etc. to increase tension.
Anyway here's a good article I recently read.
Whatever is happening now has long been predicted.
"Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question."
I sometimes sleep, and never run away from a discussion if it's civil or useful.
Which is rare here since .world is infested with reactionary clowns throwing insults and platitutes when they lose an argument.
Let me know what you think.
Why does the U.S. support Israel? A geopolitical analysis with economist Michael Hudson | MR Online
Editor (MR Online)kreskin
in reply to Bloomcole • • •examples of whats good for Israel being bad for the US:
Our aligning with Israel during the Yom Kipur war (6 day war) caused Oil prices to quadruple, which caused a decade of turmoil in the US, and almost incalculable damage to our currency. And it never really recovered to a natural pattern. The US runs on oil.
macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil…
See that massive bump up in 1973? I dont suppose you are old enough to remember interest rates in the 80s are you? it peaked at 21.5%. Thats catastrophic damage to the average US persons purchasing power. Wages didnt keep up with costs-- not even close. The Israeli's colonial war cost the US our middle class and created a massive underclass. We all paid for their war, that they claim was preemptive and unavoidable, and not their fault (just like their attack on Iran today).
And what was our reward for that? Did we gain any political leverage at all in that region? Bases? soft power? No. No we didnt. all we got was some of the blame for the Nakba, and some of the blame for the ridiculous levels persecution and murder of the Palestinian people. It was pure cost.
1990-1991 Desert storm
Israel badly wanted Sadam Hussein removed. Iraq said they invaded Kuwait because Kuwait was slant drilling into their oil fields, which is true and was known at the time to be true. So we invaded and rescued a bunch of literal thieves-- and coincidentally destroyed a potent adversary of Israel. What did we gain? anything? Two air bases, and thats about it, at great cost. The government or Iraq is barely more friendly to us that they were before. I suppose we got CENTCOM established in Kuwait. So thas not nothing, but its darn close to nothing. Israel got a major enemy removed for them. They didnt join in desert storm-- and did not allow overflight of their territory during it. They are not, and never have been a real military ally. They court Russia as much as they do the US. Same as India.
9/11/2001. Bin Laden says he attacked the world trade centers in new york to bring US public eyes to the plight of the Palestinian people that their government was facilitating, but that Americans had no idea about. And what did our people do? Our government idiotically claimed "they hated us for our freedoms", and made a big show about not blaming all muslims, just some. What was America's gain there? And when the attack happened, Israelis in New York and Israel were caught on tape literally cheering about it and filming it.
Bin Ladens interview with PBS:
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/s…
"The American imposes himself on everyone. Americans accuse our children in Palestine of being terrorists--those children, who have no weapons and have not even reached maturity. At the same time, Americans defend a country, the state of the Jews, that has a policy to destroy the future of these children."
Obviously no one condones or support what Bin Laden did, but lets be clear eyed in our foreign policy: was he incorrect in any way in his statement? I dont see how we can honestly say he was not being earnest -- to his point of view anyway. 9/11 and its outcomes would seem to be a massive, massive, massive cost to the United states in terms of hard power and soft, and added tremendously to our national debt burden. We have the TSA exactly because of Israel's murderous colonial adventurism. What of we'd simply show the muslim world the diplomatic respect of equals from the start? And he was right, zionism IS a policy of displacing the locals from their land however possible. Thats all it is. Its racist theft and murder. Its not self defense or justice, and it never has been.
And that brings us to today. We're literally sponsoring a genocide of innocents, for Israel's benefit. Its one of the most illegal and immoral things a country can possibly do.
The world HATES the US because of our stand with Israel. They now see us as almost as bad as Israel. Stupid. Easily manipulated. A global problem. This is as we have also been the main contributor to food aid and the stability of trade across the planet. Thats a cost. And what have we gotten out of it? Our funding of free weapons for shenangans and murder, and our vetoing every resolution that is about peace and justice in the region for Israeli gain costs us dearly. It makes every American traveler unsafe and unwelcome, and makes people not want to trade with us or listen to our opinions. It is destroying the concepts of democracy and the rules based order, and the concept os the western world itself. The world is ditching the dollar. I hope its all worth it for Israel to finish their genocide of innocents, who today have nothing. They are doing it for beachfront condos. They will not be any more secure after this.
And what does the US population gain for our support? Its not for any philosophical or moral reason, obviously. Israelis literally spit on christians they see in the street-- is that what friends and long term allies do? Does it indicate a "partnership"? What exactly does Israel provide to the US beyond campaign bribes through AIPAC? Intel on their enemies?
Who Is Bin Laden? - Greetings, America. My Name Is Osama Bin Laden - Hunting for bin Laden
FRONTLINEBloomcole
in reply to kreskin • • •The US has done plenty of scumbaggery including some you put in pisrahells shoes.
That's why they hate you and it's well deserved.
You caused infinitely more deaths and miserythan the little coloniser entity.
kreskin
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Bloomcole
in reply to kreskin • • •kreskin
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Bloomcole
in reply to kreskin • • •Can't explain anything to someone who's american dumb and had crappy propagandised education and news on his banana republic.
Waste of time, like explaining quantum theorie to a dog.
Enjoy yor shithole, now fuck off
kreskin
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Uh huh. Except none of what I listed is as complex and theoretical as quantum theory.
You're just using that comparison as a dodge because you have no answer to what I laid out. 50 years of the US being continually shafted and getting nothing from our "partnership" with zionists has been a disaster for the US and it has to stop.
IttihadChe
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •kreskin
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •Manifest destiny said the US land is all ours. Also Hawaii.
Divine right mandated by God, so..
/s
kreskin
in reply to SupaTuba • • •Tiger666
in reply to kreskin • • •SupaTuba
in reply to Tiger666 • • •Kbobabob
in reply to SupaTuba • • •OrteilGenou
in reply to Kbobabob • • •SupaTuba
in reply to Kbobabob • • •Cethin
in reply to SupaTuba • • •martin4598
in reply to SupaTuba • • •Just a reminder: 82% of all the Israeli Jews support ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Just saying.
Droggelbecher
in reply to martin4598 • • •SoyViking [he/him]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •小莱卡
in reply to SoyViking [he/him] • • •like this
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Grapho
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •m532
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •Anomalocaris
in reply to SoyViking [he/him] • • •Rom [he/him]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •WhyIAughta
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •ceenote
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Tomtits
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
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小莱卡
in reply to Tomtits • • •HiddenLayer555
in reply to 小莱卡 • • •Don't forget European colonialism.
That's what really started this whole shitshow.
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Pennomi
in reply to Tomtits • • •chortle_tortle
in reply to Tomtits • • •LSNLDN
in reply to chortle_tortle • • •Dessalines
in reply to LSNLDN • • •LSNLDN
in reply to Dessalines • • •Crankenstein
in reply to chortle_tortle • • •OhVenus_Baby
in reply to Crankenstein • • •Barbarian
in reply to OhVenus_Baby • • •Here's the long version.
Short version is that in WW1, the UK conquered Palestine from the Ottoman empire. 1922-1948, the British ran the territory, getting shot at regularly by both native Arabs, the tiny number of native Jews, and the comparatively much larger group of immigrant Jews. In the 1940s, the UK asked for and got US help with counterterrorist operations, especially against Jewish ones. Arabs and Jews pinky promised to play nice with each other if the UK left, so rather than continue getting shot by everyone in the region, they left. Arabs and Jews immediately started a war as soon as the UK army left. Then, every single neighbouring country attacked the newly formed Israel, which they somehow survived.
(Missing HUGE amounts of context and nuance here, obviously)
League of Nations Mandate in the Middle East under British administration (1920–1948)
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)kreskin
in reply to Barbarian • • •Barbarian
in reply to kreskin • • •Crankenstein
in reply to OhVenus_Baby • • •Just look up the history of Israel before it was given statehood and of Zionism. Here is a good article by the Guardian. warning, it's a very complicated situation, all in all, and this article really gets into the nitty gritty of history. Literally, deep into it. It's some heavy reading.
Boiled down though...
After the defeat of the Ottomans and their empire partitioned off to various countries after the Sinai and Palestine campaigns of WW1, the British were given control via a mandate by the League of Nations over a territory that became known as the Mandate of Palestine, but it was still mostly Arab citizens, the British were just given authority to maintain order in the region.
During the years of occupation, the British government encouraged European Jews to settle the region in an effort to fulfill political obligations to the Zionist movement made at what is known as the Balfour Declaration. This caused a civil war to break out over the whole colonization thing.
With the end of the Mandate over the region drawing to an end, and the tensions of the area heightened after civil war, the U.N. voted to subdivide the Mandate of Palestine into two separate states: Palestine and Israel
The Mandate years: colonialism and the creation of Israel
Guardian staff reporter (The Guardian)rumimevlevi
in reply to Crankenstein • • •Here a good article about british complicity into heping the creation of the state of israel
declassifieduk.org/how-britain…
How Britain supported Zionism and prevented Palestinian freedom
A BUSTOS (Declassified Media ltd)dutchkimble
in reply to Crankenstein • • •it's not often that shit just works
in reply to OhVenus_Baby • • •- YouTube
m.youtube.comztwhixsemhwldvka
in reply to Crankenstein • • •rumimevlevi
in reply to ztwhixsemhwldvka • • •Crankenstein
in reply to ztwhixsemhwldvka • • •Yea, they say they restricted the Jewish immigrants. Yet, if you read the article posted in my other comment, you'd see that their actions during the time period of their mandate speaks a different tale.
Them abstaining from the vote is purely performative, and doesn't negate the rest of what they did to facilitate the colonization of Palestine.
Almacca
in reply to Tomtits • • •sudo_halt
in reply to Almacca • • •Back before Britain/US/Pissrael there was the Persian empire, and there were maybe a war with Russia or the Ottomans in good sport once in a while
This shit is a modern creation thank you very much
zr0
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •stray
in reply to zr0 • • •ZWQbpkzl [none/use name]
in reply to zr0 • • •IttihadChe
in reply to ZWQbpkzl [none/use name] • • •lazynooblet
in reply to IttihadChe • • •"quantative easing"
Literally printing money
ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to lazynooblet • • •IttihadChe
in reply to lazynooblet • • •I meant more politically and materially than just monetarily.
If we cut social programs at home and continue to send/ ramp up even more billions to support Israel it will just create even more unrest, which is already at a low boil.
We also don't have unlimited manufacturing capabilities. How much material can we sacrifice without weakening our own access to these resources.
davel
in reply to lazynooblet • • •ouRKaoS
in reply to IttihadChe • • •ZWQbpkzl [none/use name]
in reply to IttihadChe • • •StupidBrotherInLaw
in reply to zr0 • • •valkyrieangela
in reply to StupidBrotherInLaw • • •zr0
in reply to valkyrieangela • • •sudo_halt
in reply to zr0 • • •humanspiral
in reply to zr0 • • •slaneesh_is_right
in reply to zr0 • • •小莱卡
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •ComradeSharkfucker
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •IndustryStandard
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •merdaverse
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to merdaverse • • •Kuori [she/her]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •all violence against fascists is justified
all violence against genocidaires is morally good
Anomalocaris
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Grapho
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •IttihadChe
in reply to Grapho • • •Grey
in reply to IttihadChe • • •mesitoispro
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •I'm cheering for the destruction of the Zionist regime just like I'd cheer for the destruction of the Nazi regime.
Good hit. Let's see more.
Allero
in reply to mesitoispro • • •Kbobabob
in reply to Allero • • •Allero
in reply to Kbobabob • • •Hope as many generals as possible got into the fire
ZWQbpkzl [none/use name]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •IttihadChe
in reply to ZWQbpkzl [none/use name] • • •I've seen reports of Airbases, the Kirya, many anti-air systems, and some city infrastructure/housing.
As usual it's iffy as Israel silences reports on impacts. But it's undeniable, Israel was rocked.
communism
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Hestia [she/her, fae/faer]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Come back to America where you belong.
I’ll kick your fucking teeth in for perpetuating genocide, but at least you’ll be alive
Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Commiunism
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Zenith
in reply to Commiunism • • •Commiunism
in reply to Zenith • • •rumimevlevi
in reply to Zenith • • •rumimevlevi
in reply to Zenith • • •sudo_halt
in reply to Commiunism • • •O great chudjack in the sky
Let the power of your nothing ever happens flow through me one last time
Bloomcole
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Apocalypteroid
in reply to Bloomcole • • •BrainInABox
in reply to Apocalypteroid • • •like this
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Apocalypteroid
in reply to BrainInABox • • •BrainInABox
in reply to Apocalypteroid • • •It's entirely reasonable, you just have a white supremacist double standard.
The vast majority of the British Empire couldn't vote and were considered lesser beings. The US had racial inequality inshrined into law and a habit of murdering minorities. The USSR I leave as an exercise to the reader.
I assume you mean Israel.
Lol, the WW2 allies absolutely treated women as second class citizens, and criminalised homosexuality. Its also ghoulish the way westerners go "these countries treat minorities badly, so it's ok to kill them (including the minorities). Ukraine isn't perfect about minorities either, do you use that to say they deserve to get invaded? Oh wait, Ukraine in white.
The British Empire was more evil than Iran by multiple orders of magnitude, yet for some reason (white supremacy) you don't take this stance on WW2
Bloomcole
in reply to BrainInABox • • •A white supremacist who used the slogan 'keep Britain white'.
Called Jews 'hebrew bloodsuckers' and has murdered millions
BrainInABox
in reply to Bloomcole • • •prole
in reply to Apocalypteroid • • •crazyhotpasta
in reply to prole • • •prole
in reply to crazyhotpasta • • •Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to prole • • •The USSR was a functioning democracy, moreso than its peer countries. Rather than being entirely decided by Capital, the Soviets extended democratic input to the economic sector. Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan and This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong are both good first-hand accounts.
It certainly wasn't perfect, either, but it was a dramatic improvement on Capitalism. Zhenli has a good article on contextualizing some of the failures of democracy in early Socialism, as well as pointing out how western leftists often let the perfect Socialism in their heads be the enemy of the flawed but really existing Socialism in the real world, that faces real struggles thanks to being a really existing system.
Why Do Marxists Fail to Bring the “Workers’ Paradise”?
真理zhenli (Medium)prole
in reply to Cowbee [he/they] • • •Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to prole • • •My point was about the USSR being democratic, which is historically true. They held elections, decided economic decisions collectively, and extended democracy not just from the realm of deciding which bourgeois politician or party represents you to the economic and political sectors governing policy and direction. A simple "they weren't dude" doesn't disprove historical fact.
Unless, of course, your parameters for deciding if something is democratic or not is decided by vibes, there's really no reason to call it undemocratic. As an overall measure of material functions of democracy, the USSR was more democratic than the major powers of the allies and axis during World War II. They certainly had flaws with their democracy, hence the inclusion on my part of Zhenli's essay, but these flaws weren't because they had the "wrong recipe," but because democracy is a material structure that needs to be built.
As for the "tankie" jab, I'm not going to apologize for being a Marxist. I agree that they were the most important force in World War II, but I disagree with your characterization of their democracy, hence why I offered sources for you or onlookers to read into to learn more. The opening of the Soviet Archives has only affirmed these primary sources as accurate, and the Zhenli essay helps us reframe how we think about building democratic structures in general.
Bloomcole
in reply to Apocalypteroid • • •Iran ranks 3rd in the world in numbers of engineers. 70% of them are women.
'The second class citizens' is exagerated, and often simply lies for propaganda purposes, like the Mahsa Amini case.
The last execution of homosexuals was 20 years ago, and this was for rape, not bcs homosexuality.
Yes many islamic countries have issues, and these are the typical hasbara machine's ammo:
"Let us genocide the Palestinians bcs they hate the gays!"
Also your WW2 'democracies' were - and still are in many cases - colonisers and looters of a large part of the world.
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stray
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Bloomcole
in reply to stray • • •Maybe go on Lemmygrad and ask them directly.
A few hours ago there were some discussing the attacks.
sudo_halt
in reply to Apocalypteroid • • •Eat dick
Thanks
tane2
in reply to sudo_halt • • •Drink bleach
Thanks
Bloomcole
in reply to Apocalypteroid • • •And the other side is caricaturally evil
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geneva_convenience
in reply to Apocalypteroid • • •Watch out, the enlightened centrist has arrived!
Winston Churchill, Adolf Hitler, well, they are both bad people. Let's root for neither of them.
porous_grey_matter
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •IttihadChe
in reply to porous_grey_matter • • •AES_Enjoyer
in reply to IttihadChe • • •IttihadChe
in reply to AES_Enjoyer • • •I'm not denying Churchills crimes or painting him as good.
How many would Hitler have murdered if he had similar control over the region? Just look at General plan Ost...
There's a reason the USSR tried to ally with Churchill against Hitler before hostilities even started.
AES_Enjoyer
in reply to IttihadChe • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to porous_grey_matter • • •Still I would have rooted for Churchill when it comes to the conflict of Nazi Germany versus Britain because I am able to separate actions from blindly supporting everything.
Iran too did absolutely horrible things in the past They sent a lot of children to die during their war with Iraq. The Mahsa Amani stuff everyone keeps bringing up is so lightweight but Western propagaganda is the dumbest stuff.
However, currently Iran is aiding Palestine and fighting Israel and they are not sending children to die for it. So I support that action.
Mouette
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •StupidBrotherInLaw
in reply to Bloomcole • • •kreskin
in reply to StupidBrotherInLaw • • •tane2
in reply to StupidBrotherInLaw • • •Tenderizer78
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to Tenderizer78 • • •Tenderizer78
in reply to Cowbee [he/they] • • •Yeah, when I said that I didn't really adequately consider what would actually come of Iran being crippled. Civilian rule is not the likely outcome of Iran being defeated.
And Iran isn't as bad as Israel, I agree, but that's a pretty low bar.
Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to Tenderizer78 • • •A low bar it may be, but as you said in the beginning, a toppled Iran would end up like a toppled Iraq - utterly devastated and all of the flaws that existed pre-Iraq War seem like beauty marks after the genocidal US invasion.
People need to chart their own destiny, free from terrorization backed by the US Empire. Without that pressure, social movements in Iran have more room to breathe without fearing rocket-fire from Israel.
MrSpArkle
in reply to Cowbee [he/they] • • •Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to MrSpArkle • • •MrSpArkle
in reply to Cowbee [he/they] • • •It would look like no more Iranians being executed for not wearing a hijab, or being gay, or saying mean things about the ayatollah.
But I guess their regime is absolutely necessary to stop the very long list of people that want to genocide Persian culture.
Typical .ml authoritarian apologist.
Cowbee [he/they]
in reply to MrSpArkle • • •Iran is a flawed state, certainly, but if Israel succeeds then they will succeed in killing far more women and queer people than the Iranian state could ever hope to execute, along with cisgender folk, liberals, etc. This is pinkwashing. As a queer person myself, this type of rhetoric is just Imperialist apologia, the path to queer liberation of Iranians would be dramatically pushed backwards if Israel succeeds in destroying Iran.
Further, yes, Iran is necessary to stop the genocide in Palestine at this moment. When Western countries are all condemning Iran and backing Israel, it is the Global South that backs Iran. Gazans are cheering, Yemeni people are watching the bombings of Tel Aviv on the big screen. Israel has been the single greatest obstacle in queer liberation in the Middle East as the fomenter of chaos, genocide, and destabilization.
Why is it that queer liberation happens in some countries, and not others? When does it happen? Social progress is a product of economic development and liberation of the Working Class. Bombing Iran and creating a failed state would result in thousands of deaths of queer Iranians, children, and many more.
Do some self-crit. You're caping for Israel and advocating for the country doing the most to oppose genocide to collapse.
rumimevlevi
in reply to MrSpArkle • • •We saw how it ended up in iraq. How many time you guy get fooled by the west propaganda?
Iranians are smart enough to know the threat number one is israel then the rrgime
Dammam No. 7
in reply to MrSpArkle • • •- YouTube
www.youtube.comKulunkelBoom
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
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Lord Wiggle
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
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Avicenna
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Bloomcole
Unknown parent • • •Still it doesn't compare and there's no excuse.
In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide.
They are not 'citizens' but colonisers.
They deserve all they get, what they don't deserve is sympathy.
nutsack
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Arcane2077
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Mycatiskai
in reply to Arcane2077 • • •ameancow
in reply to Arcane2077 • • •I'll deliver this reply in Choose Your Own Adventure Format:
If you want to make a reference to Donald Trump being at his birthday parade and thus exposed, vulnerable and in the open and presently not looking up, turn to page 89.
If you rather make a reference to how we should leave the Devil be because the Devil himself is more respectable and honorable than any of these monstrous despots who murder out of spite and wrap themselves in scripture, turn to page 322.
Frenchfryenjoyer (she/her)
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Cethin
in reply to Bloomcole • • •I would disagree. If you go back far enough, every land has been stolen. There is probably no piece of land that hasn't been held by multiple different groups over time.
I'd also argue a government existing at all is stolen land. What gives them the right to the land, instead of the people using it as they want? At some point someone decided the land was theirs, and not someone else's, and decided they could sell, lend, or use the land as they want, even if someone else also wanted to use it.
Bloomcole
in reply to Cethin • • •queermunist she/her
in reply to Cethin • • •Before colonialism, empires would conquer lands and then just make the people who already live there into their subjects.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren't really organized enough to steal land (and weren't embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They'd just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
Cethin
in reply to Bloomcole • • •Cethin
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •Yeah, that's my point. At one point in time land wasn't something owned, just something utilized. The fact that governments exert control over them implies they were stolen, as it prevents some people from utilizing it. See: Proudhon - What is Property?
queermunist she/her
in reply to Cethin • • •Okay, you need to recognize that there are greater and lesser contradictions. Yes, all property is theft, but is that a useful line for Palestinians to struggle against? Can they even meaningfully abolish property without solving the colonial question?
That's why we say the colonial question is the primary contradiction. Israelis are colonial invaders that have come to steal the land and expel or kill the indigenous population. This is a greater concern than, say, Palestinian business owners owning property (and thus stealing the land from the Commons). If we don't focus our struggles and identify the primary contradiction, we just lash out at every injustice all at once and accomplish nothing because we are overwhelmed.
Every successful decolonial struggle for national independence involves cooperation between the landless and the landed, because colonialism takes primacy. We can deal with the question of "who gets to own the land" once the invaders are gone.
Bloomcole
in reply to Cethin • • •They are not ‘citizens’ but colonisers.
It's not an unfortunate fait accompli like the US that eradicated the original inhabitants for instance.
Cethin
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •I never said that, though "the colonial question" is solved if you abolish property, so it's still worth considering, even in this context.
Yes, and the whole system is built on ownership of property. Addressing the surface level issue (colonizer stealing land) is great, but you should also consider the root cause. If they can't own land then there's no colonization. It's worth looking at both of these and fighting both. If there is to be a system enacted (which currently is no where close to happening, but still needs to be a consideration), it should be one that protects people and prevents exploitation, so this doesn't happen again.
It's too late to do it then. That's how you have a revolution collapse into something horrible; it didn't have a plan for what comes after. The people struggling to just survive don't need to consider this, but it does need to be considered. If you wait until after it's done then you just end up with squabbling, and the group who can exert control takes it without consent.
Highlybaked
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •like this
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Babalugats
in reply to Highlybaked • • •Or have I just made that up?
I never double checked. It was something I've just thought existed. Obviously not..
BrainInABox
in reply to Babalugats • • •LoudWaterHombre
in reply to Babalugats • • •queermunist she/her
in reply to Cethin • • •It's an order of operations. If they try to resolve every contradiction all at the same time they stretch the revolution too thin and drive all of their enemies into one unified front.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't even think about the other contradictions (in fact, progressive forces should internally theorize and strategize in secret about what to do after the colonial occupation is defeated) but it does mean that those secondary contradictions are to be set aside in public while they focus on the primary contradiction.
Now isn't the time to air the dirty laundry of everyone that's on your side against the occupation.
Obviously propertied interests are going to be a problem after the occupation is defeated, but until the occupation is defeated they can used. Not only does this increase the power and size of the decolonial struggle by creating a unified front, but without that ability to set aside secondary contradictions those propertied interests will join the occupation's side instead. Those propertied interests are only using the revolutionaries for their own ends, but progressive forces are only using them in turn.
This is how every successful decolonial struggle was won.
Many decolonial struggles only achieved flag independence and failed to achieve sovereignty because they either failed to identify those secondary contradictions or chose to forget the secondary contradictions in their nationalistic fervor, but that's not what I'm advocating! Once the occupation is defeated one of those secondary contradictions will become the new primary contradiction, and progressive forces will need to be prepared for that.
But that has to wait. In the immediate struggle, everyone has a common enemy.
Cethin
in reply to queermunist she/her • • •