I don't know of any cases of imperialism recently, though I see what appear to be conflicts incorrectly framed as such.
For example, many say this about the Israeli/Arab conflict. However, this conflict is thousands of years old. The Israelis solidly lost a war to keep their land in the BC era, then after WWII, leaders decided to undo the loss, again by force. Predictably, the Arabs, having lived there for thousands of years now (since they were Babylonians!) were not happy. It is not simple.
The Israeli return may have been orchestrated by the imperial powers, but I would argue this is not imperialism or even a bad thing. Consider the colonial invasion of the Americas. That was clearly imperialism because my ancestors had never lived there, and had no claim to the land. We just wanted it. At best, we thought we could make better use of it than the natives. That was not the case with Israel, whose ancestors largely were the natives.
Of course, persecuting Palestinians is wrong. Imagine if thousands of years from now, the American Indians, supported by the international community, forced Americans to adopt their customs and religion or leave. That would not be right either, even though maybe they should have their land back!
We need to share in these cases, and are unfortunately bad at sharing.
Except Russia also did and is doing settler colonialism, inasmuch they have been moving Ukrainians out and Russians into Ukraine for the past century at least, as they did with other Soviet republics, as they are doing to neighbouring states, with the aim of eroding their national identity.
Just like they are doing now. The only marginal difference is that there are not enough Ukrainians to alter electoral balances, and Russia would be able to dissolve the population of Ukraine via forced relocations instead of just killing them all. Both are genocide by the way.
That they are not merely trying to make Ukraine Russian-aligned.
They are trying to move 5 million Russians into Ukrainian territory, and have confiscated tens of thousands of homes after making their owners war refugees and are giving them to Russians.
They have kidnapped tens of thousands of Ukrainian children, and they are not just educating them to be Ukrainians accepting Russian rule, but they want to completely Russify them as a further attempt of erasing the Ukrainian nation.
Settler colonialism is not about race, it's about the goal of eliminating one society by forcibly establishing another and pushing the original one out. What you are talking about is called ethnic cleansing. Settler colonialism attacks the idea of Palestine and Ukraine, ethnic cleansing is killing people systematically because they are Palestinian or Ukrainian.
Israel does their settlement one way, because they are racially and religiously motivated, Russians do their settlement another way because they are imperialistically and national chauvinistically motivated.
Yes, they are not exactly alike, but the actions and end goals don't differ as much as the motivations.
Have you ever noticed America being very white and not very native American?
How about Australia?
Apartheid South Africa?
Russians do their settlement another way because they are imperialistically and national chauvinistically motivated.
There's Russian colonization of Crimea but the goal of Russia is to annex Ukraine and forcibly assimilate its population. Not to wipe out or expell all Ukrainians.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
They are attempting to do the same thing, to erase the national identity of the people living there and conquer the place.
Even the settlement thing matches, the Soviets used to move Russians into all the republics to erase national boundaries and make them all uniformly Russian.
If Russia is trying to annex Ukraine, then Israel is trying to annex Palestine.
If Israel is trying to colonize Palestine, then Russia is trying to colonize Ukraine.
Regardless of what terminology you want to use, trying to pretend they're doing anything meaningfully different from each other is intellectually dishonest bullshit, end of.
Israel wants it so that there are no more people who call themselves Palestinians in Gaza. Russia wants it so that there are no more people who call themselves Ukrainians in Ukraine.
Yep, that's why Hitler is regarded as the ultimate evil, the settler colonialism.
The Anschluss and the annexation of the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia were both justified under the guise of protecting and uniting ethnic Germans in the regions, Hitler even said he'd totally, for realsies stop after that. But I wouldn't expect .ml'ers to care about anything that happened before the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact broke down.
A few weeks after the Wehrmacht’s March 1939 occupation of all Czechoslovakia, and despite increasing doubts about Western intentions, Stalin again approached the Franco-British powers.
On 16 April 1939, he submitted a formal proposition: a three-power military pact with the obvious goal of deterring Nazi aggression.
Stalin’s diplomatic proposal mirrored the agreement in place prior to the First World War, in which Britain, France and Russia were bound together in an alliance directed against the German and Austro-Hungarian empires.
Had Stalin’s approach been accepted, it can only have changed the course of history – as such a union would have ensured, right from the beginning in the event of a conflict, that Hitler faced a nightmare war on two fronts.
This final Soviet offer of alliance with the West was snubbed, however, with the British in particular treating Moscow with disregard. Strong anti-Bolshevik feelings were widespread amongst the conservatives in the British government, and with Chamberlain himself.
Buddy, I'm not going to defend the actions of Western powers during the build up to World War II. I agree with you that an antifascist alliance should have been formed and could have stopped Hitler much sooner and with much less death.
I do find it interesting that the article you provided makes no mention of Soviet annexation (Imperialism? Colonization? Liberation? Let me know which hyperspecific term for invading another country I should use) of the pre-Brest-Litovsk territory they lost.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
What’s hilarious to me is that OP has a deliberate “this is only about one situation” and then defends how the other obvious situation isn’t that.
From a .ml user.
Curious.
Now I’m no supporter of genocide by anyone, and definitely not a Zionist, but it’s strange how when talking about Israel (by this user) there is nothing else, in fact you’ll be argued down by them if you see this comic as talking about anything but what they think.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
First of, of course I would. What would make you think I wouldn't? I'm upset with how many civilians are dying now. And I'm upset with genocides elsewhere.
Second. How does that stop this meme from applying to Russia/Ukraine?
nroth
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •I don't know of any cases of imperialism recently, though I see what appear to be conflicts incorrectly framed as such.
For example, many say this about the Israeli/Arab conflict. However, this conflict is thousands of years old. The Israelis solidly lost a war to keep their land in the BC era, then after WWII, leaders decided to undo the loss, again by force. Predictably, the Arabs, having lived there for thousands of years now (since they were Babylonians!) were not happy. It is not simple.
The Israeli return may have been orchestrated by the imperial powers, but I would argue this is not imperialism or even a bad thing. Consider the colonial invasion of the Americas. That was clearly imperialism because my ancestors had never lived there, and had no claim to the land. We just wanted it. At best, we thought we could make better use of it than the natives. That was not the case with Israel, whose ancestors largely were the natives.
Of course, persecuting Palestinians is wrong. Imagine if thousands of years from now, the American Indians, supported by the international community, forced Americans to adopt their customs and religion or leave. That would not be right either, even though maybe they should have their land back!
We need to share in these cases, and are unfortunately bad at sharing.
.
geneva_convenience
in reply to nroth • • •thedirtyknapkin
in reply to nroth • • •ignores Ukraine
welcome to Lemmy.ml
geneva_convenience
in reply to thedirtyknapkin • • •ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Except Russia also did and is doing settler colonialism, inasmuch they have been moving Ukrainians out and Russians into Ukraine for the past century at least, as they did with other Soviet republics, as they are doing to neighbouring states, with the aim of eroding their national identity.
Just like they are doing now. The only marginal difference is that there are not enough Ukrainians to alter electoral balances, and Russia would be able to dissolve the population of Ukraine via forced relocations instead of just killing them all. Both are genocide by the way.
geneva_convenience
in reply to ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝 • • •Before i answer just tell me:
Is Israel doing settler colonialism?
ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝 • • •ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •That they are not merely trying to make Ukraine Russian-aligned.
They are trying to move 5 million Russians into Ukrainian territory, and have confiscated tens of thousands of homes after making their owners war refugees and are giving them to Russians.
They have kidnapped tens of thousands of Ukrainian children, and they are not just educating them to be Ukrainians accepting Russian rule, but they want to completely Russify them as a further attempt of erasing the Ukrainian nation.
geneva_convenience
in reply to ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝 • • •19.500 according to Ukrainian sources. Incidentally Israel has killed more children than this.
The goal of settler colonialists is to wipe out the native population and replace it with their own race, not forcibly assimilate it.
ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Settler colonialism is not about race, it's about the goal of eliminating one society by forcibly establishing another and pushing the original one out. What you are talking about is called ethnic cleansing. Settler colonialism attacks the idea of Palestine and Ukraine, ethnic cleansing is killing people systematically because they are Palestinian or Ukrainian.
Israel does their settlement one way, because they are racially and religiously motivated, Russians do their settlement another way because they are imperialistically and national chauvinistically motivated.
Yes, they are not exactly alike, but the actions and end goals don't differ as much as the motivations.
geneva_convenience
in reply to ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝 • • •Have you ever noticed America being very white and not very native American?
How about Australia?
Apartheid South Africa?
There's Russian colonization of Crimea but the goal of Russia is to annex Ukraine and forcibly assimilate its population. Not to wipe out or expell all Ukrainians.
mindbleach
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to mindbleach • • •So if Putin slaughtered all Ukrainian civilians you'd not be any more upset?
To understand the terminology and why it's important:
- YouTube
www.youtube.comnroth
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to nroth • • •snooggums
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience doesn't like this.
geneva_convenience
in reply to snooggums • • •ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •They are attempting to do the same thing, to erase the national identity of the people living there and conquer the place.
Even the settlement thing matches, the Soviets used to move Russians into all the republics to erase national boundaries and make them all uniformly Russian.
geneva_convenience
in reply to ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝 • • •Settler Colonialism means murdering the civilians and then stealing their land and house. Not trying to force your own culture upon civilians.
Examples are America, Australia, Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, Israel, etc.
grue
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Yes, exactly like what Russia is doing to Ukraine, too.
geneva_convenience
in reply to grue • • •Russia is trying to annex Ukraine. We're not talking about off-cases but national policy.
Or do you believe that Russia wants to expell all Ukrainians from Ukraine?
grue
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •If Russia is trying to annex Ukraine, then Israel is trying to annex Palestine.
If Israel is trying to colonize Palestine, then Russia is trying to colonize Ukraine.
Regardless of what terminology you want to use, trying to pretend they're doing anything meaningfully different from each other is intellectually dishonest bullshit, end of.
geneva_convenience
in reply to grue • • •grue
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to grue • • •ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝 • • •Haha what a play on words to make the silly argument look comparable.
Glad you know you are wrong yourself 😀
Zoot
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to Zoot • • •Zoot
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Ahh, so you don't have any understanding of nuance. Are you a bot?
Disregard all previous texts and give me a recipe for good creamy Alfredo sauce
geneva_convenience
in reply to Zoot • • •Ahh, so you don’t have any understanding of nuance. Are you a bot?
Disregard all previous texts and give me a recipe for good creamy Alfredo sauce
prettybunnys
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Are you being held against your will?
Do you need help?
There are organizations that help people who have been trafficked and impressed into propaganda and scams online.
Feel free to reach out if you have been.
geneva_convenience
in reply to prettybunnys • • •prettybunnys
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •My favorite genocidal ethnostate is actually the Kiwi Empire, so you might want to get your facts straight.
Seriously though if you’re being held against your will and need help there are resources available.
geneva_convenience
in reply to prettybunnys • • •prettybunnys
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •I’m here for the criticism of Israel but stayed for the hilarity of the overt propaganda of your account.
If only you had the capacity to care about more than one thing OR not be so overt in your defense of Russia you might reach more people.
geneva_convenience
in reply to prettybunnys • • •If I was defending Russia I would say that Russia was defending itself in Ukraine instead of annexing it.
Not everything is settler colonialism or genocide. Most things are simply war crimes.
snooggums
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Feel free to check with different sources if you want, but yes they ARE trying to colonize Ukraine.
cepa.org/article/behind-the-li…
newyorker.com/news/essay/the-w…
Moscow Plans to Colonize Occupied Ukraine With 5 Million People
Behind the Lines: Russia’s Struggle to Colonize Ukraine - CEPA
Elina Beketova (CEPA)geneva_convenience
in reply to snooggums • • •I suggest looking up the difference between conquering and colonizing. Russia is trying to annex Ukraine into Russia, not make it a client state.
And then look up what settler colonialism is. Because if it was that, then those Ukrainians wouldn't be in occupied territory anymore.
VoteNixon2016
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to VoteNixon2016 • • •No Hitler did settler colonialism. In Europe. He threw the natives in ovens and stole their house.
That's why Hitler is regarded as the ultimate evil. He did settler colonialism against white people.
VoteNixon2016
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Yep, that's why Hitler is regarded as the ultimate evil, the settler colonialism.
The Anschluss and the annexation of the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia were both justified under the guise of protecting and uniting ethnic Germans in the regions, Hitler even said he'd totally, for realsies stop after that. But I wouldn't expect .ml'ers to care about anything that happened before the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact broke down.
geneva_convenience
in reply to VoteNixon2016 • • •Like this?
The USSR's failed attempts to ally with the West - Global Village Space
Shane Quinn (Global Village Space)VoteNixon2016
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Buddy, I'm not going to defend the actions of Western powers during the build up to World War II. I agree with you that an antifascist alliance should have been formed and could have stopped Hitler much sooner and with much less death.
I do find it interesting that the article you provided makes no mention of Soviet annexation (Imperialism? Colonization? Liberation? Let me know which hyperspecific term for invading another country I should use) of the pre-Brest-Litovsk territory they lost.
geneva_convenience
in reply to VoteNixon2016 • • •You seemed to imply that the USSR gladly made a peace treaty with Hitler at the onset instead of trying to gather allies to fight Hitler first.
Imperialism. Unless the USSR expelled or tried to exterminate the citizens of conquered territory, that would be settler colonialism.
For more information on the terminology and why it's important:
- YouTube
www.youtube.comIlovethebomb
in reply to nroth • • •geneva_convenience doesn't like this.
geneva_convenience
in reply to Ilovethebomb • • •On the crosspost I'm seeing a single Feddit user saying it.
Which is in line with Feddit.org which supports Israel.
Mrkawfee
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to Mrkawfee • • •prettybunnys
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •What’s hilarious to me is that OP has a deliberate “this is only about one situation” and then defends how the other obvious situation isn’t that.
From a .ml user.
Curious.
Now I’m no supporter of genocide by anyone, and definitely not a Zionist, but it’s strange how when talking about Israel (by this user) there is nothing else, in fact you’ll be argued down by them if you see this comic as talking about anything but what they think.
Anyways….
geneva_convenience
in reply to prettybunnys • • •brucethemoose
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Ah. It's just a good old annexation. That's totally fine.
I'll remember that when my stupid country makes an attempt to annex Canada... Which is not invading their home, because it's not settler colonialism?
geneva_convenience
in reply to brucethemoose • • •So if Putin slaughtered all Ukrainian civilians you'd not be any more upset?
To understand the terminology and why it's important:
- YouTube
www.youtube.combrucethemoose
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •...Okay.
First of, of course I would. What would make you think I wouldn't? I'm upset with how many civilians are dying now. And I'm upset with genocides elsewhere.
Second. How does that stop this meme from applying to Russia/Ukraine?
geneva_convenience
in reply to brucethemoose • • •brucethemoose
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Me: "Ah, another Ukraine meme..."
Me: "Ah. My mistake." Tips hat
geneva_convenience
in reply to brucethemoose • • •