The real question is why I even replied when I'm sure I know you're a disingenuous troll.
Based on the downvotes in this thread and the other one you posted, it seems no one like your opinion or feigned ignorance. But don't take to mean you're an underground hero, some takes really are just that bad.
Really not sure what the point of your ire is here. And you’re kind of coming off like an ass.
AIPAC and the people they influence are notorious for twisting and misrepresenting rhetoric that’s even slightly critical of the Israeli government. It pays to be extremely deliberate and careful when speaking publicly on those topics. You and I may understand the nuance of Mamdani’s position, but (to be blunt) a lot of more stupid and/or less engaged voters on NYC won’t necessarily have the same reaction. You’ll probably deride me as a “centrist” for saying this, but to ignore the propagandistic influence that AIPAC exerts is essentially an unforced error. So, yes, it is a absolutely good and correct to call out Bibi’s genocidal campaign, but it is a way better idea to do that in a specific, careful, and nuanced fashion, in the interest of minimizing AIPAC’s ability to twist the words into a weapon against him.
No it doesn’t. It’s an acknowledgement that the Israeli government and zionists in general have a strong tendency to jump on and misrepresent even the most mildly critical statements, and to be careful in that context. Sanders is providing pragmatic, tactical political advice, nothing more. And that’s fine and appropriate. Stop trying to outrage farm against people who actually do support Palestinians and are meaningfully against genocide.
I’m not going to litigate semantics of the English language with you.
In my estimation, you are reading far more nuance into that statement than is either implied or meant directly. I disagree with your evaluation, and I think you’re just trying to pointlessly stir up trouble where there’s not actually a problem.
You’re not going to convince me by being pithy and making inaccurate negative insinuations about one of the very few genuinely upstanding politicians that exist in this country.
It's a complex issue Bernie is alluding to. There are a lot of Jewish people who think of Israel of sort of "Their place" in the world where they are centered and the controlling stake of culture. People who are raised to think this way feel critism towards the place as an attack on their Jewishness. Those feelings can override and get in the way of treating Isreal as a country, with a political agenda and make it feel as though it were a criticism of Jewish people.
You know that whole "facts don't care about your feelings" thing the right gets on about? It's actually backwards. Feelings do not care about facts and if you don't adequately explain your purpose you can make people feel victimized even when they aren't. Jewish people who feel victimized by critism of Israel are responding to a mix of cultural programming because the idea of Israel is their security blanket. Problem is the security blanket isn't actually securing them from anything, it was just a tool to soothe anxieties about having a place to retreat to free of persecution... and now that the security blanket has been proven to be woven out of asbestos and warcrimes the trauma of prying peoples attachment from it is causing damage amongst a historically persecuted group. This is Bernie's reminder - to be sensitive to the process of individual trauma while detangling them from the genocidal regime it's emotionally fuzed to.
Not saying Israel is complex. Dealing with the victims of the propaganda is complex.
Compassion isn't just good praxis, people who fall back on feeling victimized double down on whatever their base investment is. If you want people to accept facts and actually change their minds you have to engage the person's feelings first.
Nice try. Bernie is very critical of Israels actions himself but don't take my word for it, since you can't be bothered looking it up yourself befor posting misinformation, here is his own statement about the matter: www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-statement-on-israel-palestine-and-growing-humanitarian-disaster/
Lastly, Hamas has been very clear, both before its barbaric attack on October 7th and after that attack, that their goal is perpetual warfare and the destruction of Israel. Just last week a spokesman for Hamas, Mr. Taher El-Nounou, told the New York Times, “I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us.” I am not quite sure how you negotiate a ceasefire with a terrorist organization that is dedicated to perpetual war.
Holy YIKES at least get a more recent quote instead of "I oppose a ceasefire and want all Palestinians to be killed" Sanders.
That's just obviously incorrect. Even the evidence you just posted and highlighted contradicts your conclusion. You're being willfully ignorant at this point.
In your dream world it does. Again, people are buying your bullshit. You realize the same person you're accusing of being pro Israel is also accused by the Heritage Foundation as part of Project Esther to be part of the "Hamas Support Network"?
The “Hamas Caucus” has support in the Senate from Bernie Sanders (I–VT); Chris Van Hollen (D–MD); Elizabeth Warren (D–MA); and, to varying degrees, several others.
PROJECT ESTHER A National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism National Task Force to Combat Antisemitism The Torah, in the Book of Esther (Megillat Esther), tells us that in the mid-fourth century BCE, a thriving Jewish community in ancient Persia risked…
FlexibleToast
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to FlexibleToast • • •glimse
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to glimse • • •glimse
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •"They will twist your words. Make them untwistable"
"Watch your phrasing, Israel and the media will take anything out of context"
Are you sure you know who Bernie Sanders is
geneva_convenience
in reply to glimse • • •If you think any of this should be said to Zohran Mamdani:
Are you sure you know who Zohran mamdani is?
glimse
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •The real question is why I even replied when I'm sure I know you're a disingenuous troll.
Based on the downvotes in this thread and the other one you posted, it seems no one like your opinion or feigned ignorance. But don't take to mean you're an underground hero, some takes really are just that bad.
☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ doesn't like this.
geneva_convenience
in reply to glimse • • •☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ likes this.
gravitas_deficiency
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Really not sure what the point of your ire is here. And you’re kind of coming off like an ass.
AIPAC and the people they influence are notorious for twisting and misrepresenting rhetoric that’s even slightly critical of the Israeli government. It pays to be extremely deliberate and careful when speaking publicly on those topics. You and I may understand the nuance of Mamdani’s position, but (to be blunt) a lot of more stupid and/or less engaged voters on NYC won’t necessarily have the same reaction. You’ll probably deride me as a “centrist” for saying this, but to ignore the propagandistic influence that AIPAC exerts is essentially an unforced error. So, yes, it is a absolutely good and correct to call out Bibi’s genocidal campaign, but it is a way better idea to do that in a specific, careful, and nuanced fashion, in the interest of minimizing AIPAC’s ability to twist the words into a weapon against him.
geneva_convenience
in reply to gravitas_deficiency • • •This line very specifically implies that Zohran has crossed the line in the past and does not make the correct distinction.
gravitas_deficiency
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to gravitas_deficiency • • •gravitas_deficiency
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •I’m not going to litigate semantics of the English language with you.
In my estimation, you are reading far more nuance into that statement than is either implied or meant directly. I disagree with your evaluation, and I think you’re just trying to pointlessly stir up trouble where there’s not actually a problem.
geneva_convenience
in reply to gravitas_deficiency • • •gravitas_deficiency
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to gravitas_deficiency • • •When you are so infatuated with a politician that you refuse to acknowledge their faults.
Reminds me of a certain red cap folk.
DrivebyHaiku
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •It's a complex issue Bernie is alluding to. There are a lot of Jewish people who think of Israel of sort of "Their place" in the world where they are centered and the controlling stake of culture. People who are raised to think this way feel critism towards the place as an attack on their Jewishness. Those feelings can override and get in the way of treating Isreal as a country, with a political agenda and make it feel as though it were a criticism of Jewish people.
You know that whole "facts don't care about your feelings" thing the right gets on about? It's actually backwards. Feelings do not care about facts and if you don't adequately explain your purpose you can make people feel victimized even when they aren't. Jewish people who feel victimized by critism of Israel are responding to a mix of cultural programming because the idea of Israel is their security blanket. Problem is the security blanket isn't actually securing them from anything, it was just a tool to soothe anxieties about having a place to retreat to free of persecution... and now that the security blanket has been proven to be woven out of asbestos and warcrimes the trauma of prying peoples attachment from it is causing damage amongst a historically persecuted group. This is Bernie's reminder - to be sensitive to the process of individual trauma while detangling them from the genocidal regime it's emotionally fuzed to.
geneva_convenience
in reply to DrivebyHaiku • • •It's not complex at all. It's Nazi-like settler colonialism.
And Zohran already very clearly seperates Zionism and Judaism. Bernie is concern trolling. As is anyone pretending he has a valid point.
DrivebyHaiku
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •Not saying Israel is complex. Dealing with the victims of the propaganda is complex.
Compassion isn't just good praxis, people who fall back on feeling victimized double down on whatever their base investment is. If you want people to accept facts and actually change their minds you have to engage the person's feelings first.
geneva_convenience
in reply to DrivebyHaiku • • •doortodeath
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-statement-on-israel-palestine-and-growing-humanitarian-disaster/
geneva_convenience
in reply to doortodeath • • •Holy YIKES at least get a more recent quote instead of "I oppose a ceasefire and want all Palestinians to be killed" Sanders.
Duamerthrax
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to Duamerthrax • • •FlexibleToast
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to FlexibleToast • • •FlexibleToast
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •geneva_convenience
in reply to FlexibleToast • • •FlexibleToast
in reply to geneva_convenience • • •In your dream world it does. Again, people are buying your bullshit. You realize the same person you're accusing of being pro Israel is also accused by the Heritage Foundation as part of Project Esther to be part of the "Hamas Support Network"?
heritage.org/progressivism/rep…
Maybe do even the slightest bit of research before you speak next time.
Project Esther: A National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism
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geneva_convenience
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geneva_convenience
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geneva_convenience
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