I haven't sensed more anger from fedi towards #bluesky recently. It has always been this way and it's justified imo.
So the renewed effort to get us to STFU makes me think bluesky is about to announce something bad for the decentralized social media community (maybe their business model?) and they want big names on record as opposing criticism so they won't say anything when the moment comes that they really should.
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Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to william.maggos • • •william.maggos
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •@mackuba @thisismissem
I don't think this renewed push started with that.
Mastodon Migration
in reply to william.maggos • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •Thing is, that the debate was about Bluesky PBC centralization issues, and the pushback ostensibly focuses on AT Protocol, but by extension includes criticism of Bluesky.
So, again there is a conflation of AT Protocol and Bluesky when it serves their PR interest, but a separation when it does not.
Edit: The point is AT Protocol again serving as a rhetorical shield for Bluesky PBC decentralization washing.
Emelia 👸🏻
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@mastodonmigration @mackuba @wjmaggos@liberal.city so the thing is: mastodon can implement, at a single server level, age verification. Just like there are other apps for bluesky/AT Protocol that don't implement age verification (deer.social, blacksky, others)
Mastodon does actually track IP addresses [ 1, 2 ]. It could do IP geocoding in order to provide integration points to perform age verification.
Yes, I think these age verification laws are terrible, but it is irresponsible for us to claim that age verification laws can't be followed by the software, and this just leaves server administrators liable and at risk, which isn't good either.
1. github.com/mastodon/mastodon/b…
2. github.com/mastodon/mastodon/b…
mastodon/db/schema.rb at main · mastodon/mastodon
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in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •@thisismissem @mackuba
Don't think this is really a technical matter. It's just software, so of course there is nothing fundamental that can not be done. The issue comes down to the feasibility of enforcing these measures. Because Bluesky PBC is a relatively small very centralized target for enforcement they are particularly vulnerable. Internationally decentralized Mastodon, writ large, is not something that can easily be subjected to enforcement action.
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in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@thisismissem @mackuba
Discussing this vulnerability is not dumping on AT Protocol, which, as you point out, could and does have independent decentralized components. The protocol itself is not the problem. The current topology of the network and overwhelming dominance of Bluesky PBC is.
We are in a time when susceptibility to forces that seek to exert control over social media is very important. As such, these discussions are not only warranted, but vital.
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Emelia 👸🏻
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •damon likes this.
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in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •No there is not. And yet, in this case regulators did not go after anyone. One network decided to proactively capitulate while the other said it would not comply and offered rationales for resistance. This too should be part of the discussion.
And not saying that banding together to push back on these laws is not also important. All of this needs to be fair game for discussion and strategizing.
Emelia 👸🏻
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@mastodonmigration @mackuba there's literally been a bunch of sex work and adult positive instances shutting down, and a bunch more questioning if they can afford the liability.
One service (bluesky) decided it was safer to avoid legal liability and find ways to work within the laws, this included a protest move to prohibit access from a state with a terrible age verification law (the very same thing Pornhub does).
The other (mastodon), seemingly decide that it didn't want to deal with any of the legal liabilities, essentially leaving admins to fend for themselves, whilst also ignoring the fact that Germany has had age verification requirements for accessing adult content since 2007 or something.
But fighting between us isn't going to win any push back against these terrible laws.
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in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •Yes, and you could also say that the one that chose to capitulate in advance and avoid legal liability did so because they judged (probably rightly) that they were a very vulnerable target.
No one should be blaming Bluesky PBC for taking this sensible action. It would be a disservice to their shareholders to do otherwise.
The point is that their highly centralized nature gave them no choice.
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in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •And we need to be able to both have this discussion and band together to oppose these horrible laws.
And we will be better able to oppose them from positions of relative distributed decentralized strength than as highly concentrated centralized targets.
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Emelia 👸🏻
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@mastodonmigration @mackuba highly centralized targets.. you mean like this?
Like, if a regulator wants to enforce action, it's easy for them to find targets that would have a chilling effect on the entire network.
We aren't necessarily as decentralised as we may think, and I'll remind again that many platforms are either hosted by Hetzner, OVH, or behind Cloudflare.
You really don't want to draw the ire of regulators, but that's the way things have been going.
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in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •@thisismissem @mackuba
Yes. Like that too. Absolutely.
These are precisely the conversations we should be having. Fediverse decentralization has lots of room for improvement.
It's confounding that AT Protocol users are not demanding more diversification from Bluesky PBC. Blacksky is a great first step, but until a meaningful percentage are on independent nodes the entire network is at elevated risk.
We're heading into even more challenging times, and should be thinking more strategically.
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
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in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •Kind of hard disagree.
Having been involved in standards efforts over the years, some of which where initiated by single corporations. Can without a doubt say the ones that were successful were spearheaded by companies intent upon fostering independent adoption of the standard, and insuring they were not the sole dominant enterprise using it.
This is very hard to do, and more failed than were successful.
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in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •What this would look like in practice is all the things you mention. Better doc, distributions etc. But also economic support, promotions and clear metrics celebrating meaningful 'competitive' adoption of the standard.
The reason it is hard to do is because there are always people inside the company who view these adopters as competitors and since they have the lock on the information, they have an unfair advantage.
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in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@mackuba @thisismissem
So, what the companies need to do, at the earliest possible moment is spin it all out to an independent standards effort where they do not have any proprietary advantage. Then enforce internally that they follow the standard and do not have their own version. (This is kind of where Mastodon extensions to ActivityPub seems dicey.)
But, as said above, it is really hard. Lots of competing forces and agendas. Get a bunch of VCs in the mix and it's nigh impossible.
Emelia 👸🏻
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •@thisismissem @mackuba
💯!!!
It can both be true that the protocols have interesting differences and the networks would be stronger if they were more decentralized.
Would argue that the decentralization issue is more acute with AT Protocol because of the overwhelming dominance of Bluesky PBC.
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •@mackuba @thisismissem
💯!!!
The thing that make this tricky is the difficulty many have in distiguishing AT Protocol and Bluesky PBC. But in any case we do ourselves no favors by being uncivil with each other.
ikuturso
in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •FediIndex
fedi.wrm.srEmelia 👸🏻
in reply to ikuturso • • •damon
in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •Where is all of the fediverse?
blog.benjojo.co.ukdamon
in reply to damon • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •@thisismissem @mackuba
Guess the foundational point is that as advocates of decentralized networks on open protocols we believe in the principle that distributed peer to peer networks with independent nodes are more resilient and resistant to control and censorship. The entire design of these systems is based on this principle.
When we see this threatened from too much concentration it becomes important to advocate for better distribution, because it is inherently stronger.
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Emelia 👸🏻
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in reply to Emelia 👸🏻 • • •@thisismissem @mackuba
Understood. Not saying it is a perfect response. Nothing is absolute. Just that certain structures are more defensible than others. And, smaller highly centralized US corporations are much more vulnerable.
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in reply to william.maggos • • •