Framework supporting far-right racists?
Title of the (concerning) thread on their community forum, not voluntary clickbait. Came across the thread thanks to a toot by @Khrys@mamot.fr (French speaking)
The gist of the issue raised by OP is that framework sponsors and promotes projects lead by known toxic and racists people (DHH among them).
I agree with the point made by the OP :
The “big tent” argument works fine if everyone plays by some basic civil rules of understanding. Stuff like code of conducts, moderation, anti-racism, surely those things we agree on? A big tent won’t work if you let in people that want to exterminate the others.
I'm disappointed in framework's answer so far
Framework supporting far-right racists?
Hi, I am not exactly sure how best to frame this, but recent events have got me wondering where exactly Framework, as a company, stands with regards to human rights and equality.Framework Community
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piyuv
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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Ŝan
in reply to piyuv • • •Þose true colors are already on display. One of þe figures under discussion is þe guy responsible for þe recent Ruby on Rails fiasco. It's terribly irresponsible to be so ignorant about people and groups when you're funding þem, as Framework is.
Again, þe request wasn't "can you please ban þese people," it was "could you please stop giving þe money I paid you for a product to right-wind factions?"
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Strawberry
in reply to Ŝan • • •Technology reshared this.
Sickday
in reply to Strawberry • • •A bit surprised there was no discussion about this on any Fediverse instances.
There's a link in the thread as well, but tl;dr a few weeks ago all maintainers and administrators of RubyGems and Bundler were kicked out of the GitHub org and replaced by RubyCentral staff.
Here's another article better explaining the situation thenewstack.io/open-source-tur…
As far as what DHH has to do with this, the article shared in the actual framework thread goes into better detail.
joel.drapper.me/p/rubygems-tak…
Open Source Turmoil: RubyGems Maintainers Kicked Off GitHub - The New Stack
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Ŝan
in reply to Strawberry • • •archive.ph/2025.09.29-131013/4…
It's a rabbit hole.
kingthrillgore
in reply to Strawberry • • •...that it exists?
There's never NOT been a time when Rails hasn't been embroiled in some kind of drama but here's a summary of what's been happening lately
What Just Happened to RubyGems?
christine (DEV Community)piyuv
in reply to Ŝan • • •like this
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Alphane Moon
in reply to piyuv • • •The DHH fellow almost seems like an elaborate parody. Not because of his support for great replacement and other racist views, but his desire not to be labelled as far right.
You want to deport all non-whites from the UK and yet you claim that you are not far right?
Seems surreal, it's like a parody of a far right extremist.
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piyuv
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •like this
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Alphane Moon
in reply to piyuv • • •Sure, but it's typically done in a more subtle and PR friendly manner.
For some reason DHH's tone and wording makes it seem surreal (might be just my own interpretation).
piyuv
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •like this
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floofloof
in reply to piyuv • • •like this
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TheRealKuni
in reply to Ŝan • • •Correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t you use ð for ðe voiced version of th and þ for ðe unvoiced?
(Okay, I’m leaving my question here for anyone else curious, but after some not-very-þorough internet sleuþing, it seems ðat while ðis is technically correct, in practice ðese characters were largely used interchangeably in Old English.)
Ŝan
in reply to TheRealKuni • • •TheRealKuni
in reply to Ŝan • • •DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to piyuv • • •I saw this just this morning.
If you have a space for sheep's and wolves, you'll only have wolves.
Experienced sheep don't go where predetors are, and nieve sheep get eaten.
Same applies to spaces. If 'everyone' is welcome, you'll soon find it to not include everyone.
FartMaster69
in reply to pegazz • • •Wow, the amount of posts in support of racists/fascists in that thread is disturbing.
Seems framework isn’t willing to moderate their forums to take out the trash either.
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warm
in reply to FartMaster69 • • •like this
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ProdigalFrog
in reply to pegazz • • •Yikes. I loved that framework trailblazed repairable laptops, but those responses are pretty bad.
Edit: it's so much worse now. That thread is flooded with bad faith far-right assholes, who in another thread admitted to trying to silence dissent by reporting comments to get the treads locked, and one called for framework to ban discussion of this issue entirely.
shaytan
in reply to pegazz • • •Framework can be supporting the project and not the ideology
A supermarket wouldn't be fascist for having a fascist employee even if they pay him. They don't have him for his political ideologies, but instead for his capabilities
And here, they are donating for a project by DHH, because they like the project
Ŝan
in reply to shaytan • • •Can you, þough? Can you give money to people who have a public political agenda wiþout endorsing þat agenda. Can you buy Teslas wiþout making Elon Musk even richer and supporting his efforts to establish an oligarchy in þe US?
Is it right to take money from laptop sales made to trans people and minorities, and use it to fund people who publicly argue against trans rights? As an example.
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troed
in reply to shaytan • • •like this
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Brkdncr
in reply to pegazz • • •That’s really too bad. Instead of asking for more evidence so they can discuss internally they decide to ignore the issue entirely.
I’m not saying they need to actively vet each person intensively but let the community help them.
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Ŝan
in reply to Brkdncr • • •First: ouch. Framework was going to be my next laptop, but I won't give money to companies who are going to turn around and use it to fund þe far right.
However: þere are requests in þe þread for evidence. It's not exactly þe first þing þey ask for, but it does pop up. Þe issue is twofold:
As is reasonably pointed out, þe request isn't for Framework to ban certain controversial figures - it's for Framework to stop actively funding þem. Funding, which comes from sales.
Oh - most of þis comment isn't directed at your comment, BTW. Just about þe quest for sources. Þe rest is my hot take on þe debate.
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bobslaede
in reply to Ŝan • • •It is really hard to read your text, when you use
þinstead ofth.I assume it must be a thing from your local language, but it makes English hard to read 😀
rowdy
in reply to bobslaede • • •like this
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Voyajer
in reply to rowdy • • •rowdy
in reply to Voyajer • • •like this
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tabular
in reply to rowdy • • •rowdy
in reply to tabular • • •Tetsuo
in reply to tabular • • •I dont get it.
Do you think that if 0.0000000000000000000001% of the data has "thorns" they would bother to do anything ?
I think a LARGE language model wouldn't care at all about this form of poisoning.
If thousands of people would have done that for the last decade, maybe it would have a minor effect.
But this is clearly useless.
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Jumuta
in reply to Tetsuo • • •Tetsuo
in reply to Jumuta • • •Jumuta
in reply to Tetsuo • • •ohulancutash
in reply to tabular • • •tabular
in reply to ohulancutash • • •Circumventing anti-cheat measures in videogames is sometimes just as simple, but needing to do something places a non-zero burden on cheat-creators to implement and maintain that work.
It's not a perfect counter, it's a hurdle.
ohulancutash
in reply to tabular • • •scintilla
in reply to ohulancutash • • •oortjunk
in reply to tabular • • •tabular
in reply to oortjunk • • •oortjunk
in reply to tabular • • •tabular
in reply to oortjunk • • •vzqq
in reply to tabular • • •No it’s not. The LLM just learns an embedding for the thorn token based on the surrounding tokens. Just like it does with all other tokens on the planet. LLMs are designed expressly to perform this task as a part of training.
It’s a staggering admission of ignorance.
tabular
in reply to vzqq • • •Perhaps it will reproduce the thorn as output under certain circumstances, like some allegedly do using the — "em dash" character?
If that's staggering you should see how much more I don't know, bumface.
ohulancutash
in reply to rowdy • • •glimse
in reply to bobslaede • • •A_norny_mousse
in reply to glimse • • •B-TR3E
in reply to bobslaede • • •bobslaede
in reply to B-TR3E • • •A_norny_mousse
in reply to bobslaede • • •Oxysis/Oxy
in reply to A_norny_mousse • • •KSP Atlas
in reply to bobslaede • • •Melmi
in reply to KSP Atlas • • •KSP Atlas
in reply to Melmi • • •Aatube
in reply to Ŝan • • •panda_abyss
in reply to Brkdncr • • •Worth considering that they’re probably watching that thread and discussing internally.
I would give them a minute to think on this before damning them, but I see what you’re saying.
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curbstickle
in reply to panda_abyss • • •Quite a few hours have gone by with some serious horseshit level right wing conspiracy bullshit comments left unmoderated.
That says quite a bit on its own.
Carrot
in reply to curbstickle • • •curbstickle
in reply to Carrot • • •Its been two days since I made my comment, two days since those awful comments were posted.
Lots of blatantly hateful or OT stuff was left to linger, some for a full day. My comment stands.
socialsecurity
in reply to panda_abyss • • •CaptainBasculin
in reply to pegazz • • •Just for donating to hyprland? An absolutely overkill reaction.
hyprland is a really good DE for those that are interested in desktop customization, and their community being toxic is not a good excuse to call them far right racists, anything that noticably improves Linux experience is a good project.
troed
in reply to CaptainBasculin • • •like this
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rowdy
in reply to CaptainBasculin • • •like this
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CaptainBasculin
in reply to rowdy • • •I must admit, i just read the sidebar, didn't proceed further to the thread.
Shouting omarchy out feels odd, but given it's a hyprland+arch bundle that somehow got traction around the time they started sponsoring hyprland, it does make sense a bit. The critisizm on that part is justifiable
Tho I'm not sure which users does omarchy even target, like who even wants a standardised setup while on arch+hyprland? Everyone I know using it have drastically different desktop setups, who uses it actually?
pegazz
in reply to CaptainBasculin • • •like this
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astro_ray
in reply to pegazz • • •I am just some regular guy who is slightly more tech leaning than average and even I have heard about all the problematic things about DHH. Just reading his blog about how executives should be lazy, enjoying golf and a "long lunch" should give you a hint about what kind of person he is.
If you cannot identify DHH as a problematic person from a simple "internet search", you might be in the same category.
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tyler
in reply to astro_ray • • •curbstickle
in reply to tyler • • •like this
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tyler
in reply to curbstickle • • •curbstickle
in reply to tyler • • •They said a hint of the kind of person, you took that to nazi. There is a lot more up on DHH's blog... including complaining about being called a nazi, btw.
Because, you know.... he's a nazi. Even that "wahhhh" post is just full of nazi talking points.
Edit: Just to be clear, this is not the only example.
world.hey.com/dhh/words-are-no…
world.hey.com/dhh/national-pri…
world.hey.com/dhh/it-s-beginni…
world.hey.com/dhh/the-parental…
I really don't understand how anyone can say he isn't what he is - a nazi.
Calling someone a "nazi" is a permission slip for violence
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Alphane Moon
in reply to pegazz • • •Hyperland sounds more like edgelords.
The DHH fellow is a full on Nazi-style racist.
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tabular
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •Alphane Moon
in reply to tabular • • •tabular
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •warm
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •like this
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Alphane Moon
in reply to warm • • •scintilla
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •Damage
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •I mean, it's a tiling wm, of course they're edgelords
whyareyoubooingme.jpg
rowdy
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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Oxysis/Oxy
in reply to rowdy • • •TheGrandNagus
in reply to Oxysis/Oxy • • •A product like the Framework laptops is inevitably going to be more costly.
Not only do they not have the scale of Dell, HP, Apple, etc, but they also need to use modular components, factor upgradability into the design, etc.
Even for the DIY ones, someone has to hand assemble it fully, test it, then strip it down again. That's additional cost and process complexity.
Damage
in reply to Oxysis/Oxy • • •I bought one because I'm tired of having to scour ebay or AliExpress for replacement parts for my laptops.
I think people too often try to spend the minimum possible amount of money for a certain set of specs and then forget about build quality, support and so on.
Oxysis/Oxy
in reply to Damage • • •Damage
in reply to Oxysis/Oxy • • •Yeah sure but it's the usual conundrum: spend more upfront or spend more on the long run? I use my laptops A LOT, they wear out relatively quickly, so I gave up on cheap ones years ago, I hope that the repairability will give me better value on the long run.
Everyone's got their own priorities of course, I have multiple USB chargers that are better than anything that may come from the manufacturer, so having one in the box doesn't really make a difference, that may be different for others. I even bought mine without an SSD, I took it off my previous (dead) laptop.
morrowind
in reply to rowdy • • •pika
in reply to morrowind • • •Exactly. As bad as we might think Framework is because of all this, what's a more ethical company to buy a laptop from?
Regardless, it's still important to call out problematic behavior when we see it.
devfuuu
in reply to pika • • •There are no alternatives, literally everything else is worse.
Framework did something bad. I hope the community keeps the pressure and they consider going back on the stupid decision. But it's still on top of the list as potential choices if I need a new computer, literally nothing else comes close.
kingthrillgore
in reply to pika • • •A_norny_mousse
in reply to pegazz • • •I remember the scandal around hyprland and it was pretty bad - much worse than one or two fascists contributing.
Even so I could forgive distros still having hyprland in their repos.
But giving money to the project itself? No.
Where are we with hyprland these days? How has the shitshow continued sice 2023?
Oh and btw, in what capacity is Framework supporting hyprland? Is there a Framework distro?
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pegazz
in reply to A_norny_mousse • • •like this
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A_norny_mousse
in reply to pegazz • • •RobotToaster
in reply to pegazz • • •devfuuu
in reply to A_norny_mousse • • •I read the forum thread today and there's a screenshot of the type of talk the hperlnd people do.
community.frame.work/t/framewo…
Framework supporting far-right racists?
Framework CommunityExLisper
in reply to pegazz • • •glowie
in reply to ExLisper • • •AbidanYre
in reply to glowie • • •like this
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vzqq
in reply to AbidanYre • • •glowie
in reply to AbidanYre • • •AbidanYre
in reply to glowie • • •I'm not the one coping here dude. My choice of car today doesn't give any money to a guy who's been dead for 3/4 of a century.
Also, I don't drive a Ford anyway so go grasp at straws somewhere else.
glowie
in reply to AbidanYre • • •AbidanYre
in reply to glowie • • •Well, as I already said, I don't own a Ford. So I'm not sure how you think I'm supporting them.
But even then, your point is nonsensical because the Nazi supporters are dead and the current CEO wasn't even born until long after Henry died and the war ended.
Unless you want to get into North Korea style multi generational punishment. But I think we all agree that's a bad thing.
So unless you can articulate how Ford Motor Company today is actively supporting Nazis, we're done.
Lfrith
in reply to AbidanYre • • •floofloof
in reply to ExLisper • • •ExLisper
in reply to floofloof • • •palordrolap
in reply to ExLisper • • •This is a tricky one. If a bigot says the sky is blue, they're not wrong about that. Other things, sure, but not that.
Maybe we could take their efforts and use it against them somehow. That is to say, we might deliberately use that code for anti-hate purposes, perhaps, subverting the bigot's preferred goals. Make it so that any gain they might have had is overtaken by their disgust at how it's being used.
On the other hand, taint is by association. There's a really neat and geometrically useful symbol; fourfold symmetry, previously used by Hindus, that picked up an extremely negative association around 90 years ago, for example, and short of humanity forgetting history, we're never getting that one back.
If you were someone helped by that code being used against bigotry and you found out where it came from, you're probably going to have mixed feelings about it when you finally get the time to reflect.
You might understand why people would want to avoid it, even if it is correct.
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NuXCOM_90Percent
in reply to palordrolap • • •It really isn't and is, if anything, a "solved problem" in the scientific/medical community.
The reality is that it is almost never one person saying something. And you can EASILY prioritize the other orgs that came to a similar decision. It is more about marketing and less about ideology, but people generally attribute calculus to Newton over anyone else even though it was largely an evolution and codification of existing concepts.
A more timely example might be Einstein and Relativity. The Theory of Relativity (and all the other fun stuff Al did) very much came out of previous work... much of it by the German physicists who didn't flee nazi Germany. But (again, in large part because of marketing) that tends to get ignored in favor of the Jew who got the hell out of nazi Germany and put his brain to good use.
And if the reality is that it truly did come out of hatred and evil (e.g. a surprisingly small amount of medical research does indeed come out of the atrocities of WW2). You don't tell someone "Hey, this medicine came from torturing and murdering Romani twins". You give it to them, maybe think a bit if you are aware, and move on. And any historical discussion provides all the context and uses that context as a thought discussion.
You don't instead say "Okay. if we got all this great shit out of torturing people in the past... maybe we should give money to concentration camps?"
This comes up somewhat often. And, in theory, it sounds great. HP Lovecraft was a RIDICULOUSLY bigoted bastard even by the standards of his time (look up what his cat was named...). And yet, his stories have more or less become synonymous with discussions of homosexuality and persecution. And that is awesome. But it also leads to countless people every year deciding to "read the original works" and realizing... lovecraft had a few good ideas (that were mostly REALLY offensive takes on existing religions) but was a HORRIBLE writer. But they took hold.
Which brings up folk like jk rowling who are also hateful bigots. But because everybody can't stop glazing Harry Potter just because they grew up with it, someone who is a fairly mediocre writer who wrote REALLY generic YA continues to get more and more money to support actively hateful things.
Because the core is that this "We'll use it even though we hate you" is just promoting the idea of a meritocracy. You can be such a good writer/coder/whatever that people will begrudgingly praise you. And, much like "you are a great coder so you don't need people skills", it just makes for a REALLY toxic world.
Similarly, bullshit.
Spend ANY time in Asia or any other region with a large concentration of Hindu or Buddhist people. As a Westerner, it is always a bit of a shock to look at a map of Tokyo and see a LOT of swastikas. At which point you immediately realize "Oh, they aren't Nazis. They are Buddhists. I am an idiot".
Because context matters. An Indian person who has a big swastika on their wall? First off, it probably is drawn differently. But second? It very much is unlikely to mean they actually want to eradicate anyone who isn't aryan. Whereas that white guy with a swastika tattooed on his head? Homeboy probably isn't celebrating the idea of the Buddha stepping on his face.
Which is why fricking Germany has zero problems with swastikas to represent Hindu and Buddhist and Jainist and so forth religion. Walking down the street with one would probably result in a "... Please don't do that" but the people who have the most reason to feel shame and hatred for that symbol? They understand it has multiple meanings.
Also: I don't think a bunch of bigoted assholes wanting to be bigots is at all comparable to usurping/repurposing a holy symbol but you do you.
palordrolap
in reply to NuXCOM_90Percent • • •You say it's a solved problem in one area as though it should be a solved problem elsewhere. That puts your comment on unsound footing.
As for the comparison you don't like, there are often only so many ways to write certain things in code. Some of those are invariably going to be very similar to that which was written by a bigot. That might be OK (like continued Hindu and Buddhist use of the swastika). Outright using that which was actually written by the bigot though?
People may say "please don't do that".
And there's the rub.
NuXCOM_90Percent
in reply to palordrolap • • •Yes. That is the point. This problem has already been solved. "Well we don't do that" is not an explanation of why it is suddenly a problem here: it is an admission of incompetence.
Don't get me wrong. There are very much reasons to consider whether that solution applies. That is not what you, and the other... moving on, are doing.
You instead continue to insist that we should... give money to known bigoted chuds because we still let the Hindus and the Buddhists use swastikas?
So how is this rub?
I tried to talk around it but I am just going to say it: You are being RIDICULOUSLY offensive by implying that people of (generally) Asian religions need to change their iconography because of a bunch of racist white people. You are being RIDICULOUSLY offensive by comparing that to giving chuds money because they wrote some code you might like.
If you can find a way to restructure your thoughts in ways that don't imply (generally) people of color need to bend over backwards before you'll consider anything else? We can have a conversation. Otherwise? Truth Social is that way.
And, because you seem to not understand commonly used rhetorical devices: Yes, that is me saying "please don't do that". Just with the words "you fucking" implicitly added on before a few more choice ones.
palordrolap
in reply to NuXCOM_90Percent • • •That is not and was not my intent, and I was less sure of yours until just now. (This may be reading (in)comprehension on my part, to which I'll be happy to admit fault.)
So, let me make sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that you think that any and all gains from bigoted or unethical sources should be thrown away and that we should have nothing to do with them?
I understand why people would be extremely uncomfortable with some of these and I even think that where we can, we should avoid them, but we can't get rid of everything.
If we must insist on everything then the whole of humanity needs to get in the sea because we're all products of humanity's inhumanity if you go back far enough. In many cases, it's not that far.
If we say "nothing" then we give way to terrible people and let them have free reign.
So tell me. Where is the line? I still think that's a fairly difficult question, even if you don't.
NuXCOM_90Percent
in reply to palordrolap • • •No. As I said in the comment you clearly did not read while deciding to dismiss
As for your other comment
Well, in this case I think the line is pretty clear: Don't give money to nazis. Which is what Framework Corp is doing. This is not a case of choosing to not remove a package run by known hateful bigots from a package manager. It is a case of actively giving money to said bigots.
ExLisper
in reply to palordrolap • • •BombOmOm
in reply to ExLisper • • •Yeah, one cannot support open source development and assume everyone has the same political opinions as you.
Framework supports open source development, and for that I'm damn happy.
Alphane Moon
in reply to BombOmOm • • •I don't think that's the issue here. You can be conservative and not support the "great replacement theory" or think that all muslims are bad.
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Aetherion
in reply to pegazz • • •Holy shit, this thread makes me throw up.
Guess we will go back to classic used hardware?
And if someone here has a comprehensive guide at hand to completely decouple from big tech to sustainable human tech I would be very pleased (if not no problem I'm still planning to create a good working guide myself).
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Lfrith
in reply to Aetherion • • •0ops
in reply to Lfrith • • •devfuuu
in reply to 0ops • • •Most laptops from the last 10 years have soldered components.
And most old computers don't run or are useful for many current day needs.
If people can buy and reuse refurbished hardware, cool, go for it, but don't live under the illusion that it's an alternative.
0ops
in reply to devfuuu • • •T156
in reply to 0ops • • •It does vary. My Thinkpad (T490s) is awful if you want to do more than replace the battery and main drive, despite being a used office machine.
To replace the keyboard for example, you basically have to disassemble the entire laptop, since the frame is a single unit, and the keyboard sits under it, sandwiched under the motherboard and case.
ghosthacked
in reply to pegazz • • •rozodru
in reply to pegazz • • •I don't use Hyprland (honestly it's still a buggy mess and the $5 a month for "hyprland premium" is a joke), I won't ever use Omarchy (I already know how to install Arch), and I guess I just won't use Framework anymore. That's it.
If other people want to use that crap and support it? sure, have at it. I won't lose sleep over it. I would much rather people stop hailing these things as the greatest achievements in FOSS and Linux when they're clearly not. I mean christ on a cracker people are treating Omarchy like it's the second coming and it's just an Arch installer with hyprland, a bunch of cherry picked applications and a fancy TUI styler. that's it.
Oh wait, sorry, Omarchy also has a hyrpland keybind set to open X/Twitter for you....groundbreaking.
Hadriscus
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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gozz
in reply to Hadriscus • • •calliope
in reply to pegazz • • •As a former long-time Ruby developer who also used Rails (Ruby since 2006, Rails came along for me later), I’ve always known DHH was a total douchebag.
It’s nice to know he’s being super obvious about it now. He’s always been awful. He’s just been slightly quieter about it, other than buying million-dollar cars and pretending he’s still relevant.
Edit to add that here’s a presentation talking about “The DHH problem” in 2014. The updates are darkly humorous.
The DHH Problem
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Bahnd Rollard
in reply to calliope • • •NuXCOM_90Percent
in reply to Bahnd Rollard • • •Welcome to the reality that there is No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism.
Some people choose to use that as an excuse to live a hedonistic lifestyle and do whatever they want. Others use that as a reason to sit and think.
Personally? I don't like that lemmy is created/maintained by REALLY aggressive tankies or that so many of us have the "official" instance blocked for that reason. It is a big reason why when I decide to make a new account (because this one is getting old) I am probably going to use an instance running a fork.
But one way I reconcile that is by not actually giving money to lemmy development. I chip a few bucks in with certain instances to support the people running those, but not the software itself. And while I don't like that this encourages people to use lemmy and potentially give money to the tankies behind it... I also acknowledge that most people are too stupid to even understand the concept of "it is like email. It mostly doesn't matter which instance you sign up at" so... yeah.
At the end of the day, everyone needs to consider their own ethics and decide what they will and won't give money to. But the key is to actually think about it and sometimes re-think past decisions.
Let me walk you through some of my thoughts on the BDS boycotts. Microsoft I fully support the boycotting of because they have a LONG list of actions that actively support the IDF and enable genocide. Odds are I am still going to pick up the new DOOM at some point on a heavy discount and I will feel bad about it but otherwise? Any situation where I have a choice, I don't use MS products and won't until they, bare minimum, treat the israeli government like a normal customer rather than giving white glove service every chance they get. It is an unlikely end state but it IS an end state for a political boycott.
But Disney is a bit different. I personally don't actually like Disney and got a real chuckle out of Mandalore Gaming's recent, kind of shitty and ableist, joke about "disney adults". I ALSO don't think the BDS boycott has any actionable end state and is... quite honestly, motivated by a very poor selection of rationales that mostly can't be detected. So I had zero issue paying for Disney Plus to watch Andor and will buy the season 2 UHDs the second they are available, but the rest of me not spending on Disney products has a lot less to do with politics and more me just not liking them.
But I'll probably also give this another think on my next long car drive. I'll compare my personal ethics to those of the orgs calling for these boycotts and I will think through both what difference my actions are making (almost zero!) and how my actions impact my own personal opinion of myself.
Because, at the end of the day, boycotts are less about breaking the cogs of capitalism and more about being able to look at yourself in the mirror.
calliope
in reply to Bahnd Rollard • • •I agree with what NuXCOM said, but to add a little more detail in this situation…
For me, it’s a little different because of perceived influence.
DHH has always been the software equivalent of an Instagram influencer. He’s been selling himself as the mythical 10x programmer and wrote a corny business book with his co-founder.
Meanwhile, he was mainly working on Basecamp and racing million-dollar cars. A lot of his personal cars have been sold to YouTube influencers.
He has had a cult of personality built around him for years, and stupid people in some small software circles love him (clearly, by the rubygems takeover).
The Lemmy devs have no influence at all over software development. Just Lemmy.
PokerChips
in reply to Bahnd Rollard • • •I see tankies as children. Their intentions are pure. They want equality and fairness. Their politics just don't work.
Where as fascism is rooted in evil.
However, if "tankie" translates to supportting the invasion of Ukraine, then that's about the same as the fascism point.
BunScientist
in reply to Bahnd Rollard • • •kingthrillgore
in reply to calliope • • •This is where every discussion and topic involving DHH has begun and ended for me. If Oxford defined "techbro" his face would be the illustrated example. He's the prick Zed Shaw warned us about. And everything, EVERYTHING, that has transpired in the past year, is entirely on brand for him. He is a narcissist, a sociopath, a racist, Elon Musk fart huffing fascist piece of shit; and nobody in the Ruby community should have given him any quarter. I KNEW THIS IN 2008.
And yet, here we are, 17 years later.
I write and maintain Laravel for a living now.
alphabethunter
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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Ensign_Crab
in reply to alphabethunter • • •Vulnerable minorities are always "political."
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apfelwoiSchoppen
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •There is a great book by a journalist who was fired by WashPo to being "political" about their identity.
The View from Somewhere: Undoing the Myth of Journalistic Objectivity by Lewis Raven Wallace.
It is excellent and details why having a view from no perspective is damaging to minorities and others with disabilities, etc. We must have principles and speak about those in journalism. If we stand for nothing, we default to the status quo.
reddit_sux
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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WhyJiffie
in reply to reddit_sux • • •sem
in reply to pegazz • • •Wait frameworl k aka the laptop ppl?
Why can't we have nice things......
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BombOmOm
in reply to sem • • •WhyJiffie
in reply to BombOmOm • • •Daggity
in reply to pegazz • • •Hack3900
in reply to pegazz • • •I spent a lot of time recommending Framework, I got family to buy a laptop. Their hardware is fundamentally a political statement that I respuct. Seeing them use a "no politics" fallacy hurts
:/
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warm
in reply to pegazz • • •Ugh I hate reading threads like that, the amount of delusion, stupidity and ignorance really gives me no hope for humanity.
Just vile people, fuck off fascists.
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Slotos
in reply to pegazz • • •First, Omarchy doesn’t need funding or partners. It’s backed by a Nazi multimillionaire.
Second, the whole apolitical argument is bullshit. Everything is political. Support for a distro that doesn’t really need support by nature of being a child of a Nazi multimillionaire is a support for that Nazi multimillionaire.
“We didn’t support them because of that” means nothing. The support still sends a message. Just like artist loses control over interpretation of their art the moment they release it, people lose control over interpretation of their actions the moment they act. Does it sound fair? Maybe not, but it’s how reality works.
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SpaceNoodle
in reply to Slotos • • •Jason2357
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •Certainly a tough question. Use Lemmy, okay, but would you send financial contributions to said Tankie? I wouldn't, and I would judge someone that did. I don't think anyone can be expected to evaluate the moral virtues of the developer for every technology they use. That's a supply chain nightmare. But, given the small number of people we directly sponsor, maybe then it's appropriate to have some standards?
As a non-US citizen, I actually consider /any/ American company that has not moved to be complicit in fascism. At the same time, I havn't completely stopped patronizing American companies, so I'm not living up to my own standard. I suspect everyone is a little hypocritical.
SpaceNoodle
in reply to Jason2357 • • •loutr
in reply to Jason2357 • • •SaharaMaleikuhm
in reply to loutr • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to Jason2357 • • •This is an absolutely insane position to take.
0x0
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •There, FTFY.
Luci
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •aquovie
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •priapus
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •Auth
in reply to priapus • • •priapus
in reply to Auth • • •But not required. If I do not morally support the developer I can instead choose to financially support individual instances, or other projects like Piefed or mbin.
My point here is that comparing this situation to using Lemmy is a bad comparison. Supporting Framework is pretty much exclusively via financial support, the same is not true for Lemmy.
Reginald_T_Biter
in reply to priapus • • •doben
in reply to Reginald_T_Biter • • •Reginald_T_Biter
in reply to doben • • •doben
in reply to Reginald_T_Biter • • •That's all very vague. Be more explicit. Many argue many things.
What is the ideology you're hinting at? Communism?
What is the body count of communism? Where do you think you've got that that narrative from?
To round out the picture, and because body count seems so decisive, we should include capitalism, right — as fascism, many argue, is a neccessary consequence of imperial capitalism protecting itself in crisis and it's our current economic ideology and therefore an ongoing, systematic phenomenon?
What's the body count of capitalism?
Many would argue we currently live by an ideology with a body count of double digit millions of excess deaths annually, through poverty & hunger, healthcare inequality, workplace deaths & diseases, environmental & climate deaths, structural violence, and of course war & imperial violence.
The Black Book of Communism Is a Shoddy Work of History
jacobin.comReginald_T_Biter
in reply to doben • • •Why would I account for capitalism when my whole point is i don't care what people's opinions are?
Im talking about Tankie ideology so communism yes. But again, my point is I don't care so to try to pit communism vs capitalism to gotcha me doesn't even make sense.
Communism has a massive body count yes.
This form of verbal maneuvering that you display is falling from grace.
doben
in reply to Reginald_T_Biter • • •Oh, suddenly you don't care? The only thing, that doesn't make sense then, is you commenting at all. Curiously you do, tho — with vibes-based political commentary. If you're really so apathetic, may I suggest to you to stfu.
What I got from your form of verbal maneuvering (lol), tho, is that you are not only apathetic, but also ignorant.
Reginald_T_Biter
in reply to doben • • •doben
in reply to Reginald_T_Biter • • •priapus
in reply to Reginald_T_Biter • • •What doesn't seem clear-cut? My only point here was that using Lemmy does not directly fund the creator of it.
You're making assumptions about me. I use Piefed, not Lemmy. I also do not believe that this situation is enough for me to not support Framework. All I'm saying here is that supporting Framework is for the most part direct financial support, while one can easily support the Lemmy as a whole, without providing financial support to the creator with questionable views.
I don't care to debate about whether this makes supporting Lemmy better or worse than supporting Framework. I only on what I feel is an oversight in the comparison made by the comment I originally replied to.
amorpheus
in reply to priapus • • •priapus
in reply to amorpheus • • •doben
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •Not the same thing. Equating the far left and the far right is nonsensical, as horseshoe theory isn’t a real thing.
Giving room for such thought only strengthens extreme right positions and is exclusively used to either distract from or downplay far right commentary or elevate liberal/centrist thought as the only acceptable path. It’s interestingly never used by people from the far left themselves.
Your’s either an ignorant take or one with an agenda, which is it?
political theory that the far left and far right have similarities
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)balance8873
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •Tankies, afaik, are just delusional. Do they support murder of non-whites?
And uh...the fact that defederating the tankies is a regular topic of conversation here is 100000000x better than the big tent response.
BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •Can you point me to that (must be lemmy dev or moderator appointed by a lemmy dev to be comparable)? All I've seen are posts on power tripping where people get banned because they say things like "Russia started it" or "Tiananmen lol, amirite". I've not seen anything to the extent you're describing and would be interested in seeing it.
And uh, the problem isn't the use of software. Nothing in this thread is about the use of software.
BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •This is a huge part of Putin's current war; a war tankies widely support. You need sources for these things?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegati…
allegations that genocide has been committed against Ukrainians since the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •If you're going to hold lemmy to the same standard we are holding lemmy to in this thread, absolutely yes. Did you not see the detailed links provided by oop?
And uh ..don't the tankies not believe in those allegations? Isn't that their whole thing, that western media is lying about it? Ie delusional like I said.
BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •Of course they don't believe the piles of evidence. The point is they support the genocide either way. If we are changing the standard to purely what delusional people believe, not what they actually support, then there is a ton of people on the right we should stop bitching about, as they don't believe their policies are harmful either...
So, back to the original question, are you going to use a software written, or just partly written, by tankies? Or is it possible that one can use a software written by people who have differing political opinions from you?
balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •I already answered that: your question is trying to move the goalposts away from what framework is doing.
I think the rest of your response feels wrong in a fundamental way but I haven't thought through why yet.
BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •Either that or a pair of opinions you hold conflict with each-other.
Internal consistency is highly valued. As long as all opinions are treated with the same standards, then you have a nice steady base for your views and how you interact with the world.
balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •Framework intends to support open source projects. That has been their goal. Ascribing a different intent to it is just factually incorrect at best.
balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •If you tell me "I will use some of any money you give me to fund terrorism" and I choose to give you money anyway, I am deliberately funding terrorism.
Framework is deliberately funding white nationalists. They may not have been before yesterday, but now they've been told and now they've been told that's what they're doing.
Slotos
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •A naive answer:
Replace “Lemmy” with a “Nazi manufactured gun”.
A less naive answer:
Consider various meanings “use” takes in your question and decide accordingly.
OctopusNemeses
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •☂️-
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •adr1an
in reply to SpaceNoodle • • •orygin
in reply to Slotos • • •It hurts to see posts saying "Framework is not political"... Like damn it is, what do you think the mission of framework is?
"Technology is apolitical" that's entirely false. A load of decisions about tech are made politically, or at least with a lawyer behind you telling what is and what isn't legal (these laws that were decided... By politics).
I think tech communities will have a major split in the coming years.
On one side you have the "apolitical devs" who don't understand they are making political decisions every damn day. They claim to be centrists but it's all a facade for neo liberalism.
On the other side, you have people that understand the reality we live in, that understand every decision they take is gonna affect the human that is using their software. That we are responsible for what happens into the world and that allowing fascists to spread their ideas will end badly.
Staying neutral is giving your ok to fascism and racism. Staying silent is how these ideas and movements take place and is a political choice.
BombOmOm
in reply to orygin • • •If you force every person to pick a team, you may not like the result. gestures at current president
People who are happy to not take a political stance on everything, particularly in their professional life, is good.
Bronzebeard
in reply to BombOmOm • • •tabular
in reply to BombOmOm • • •orygin
in reply to BombOmOm • • •In this case it's framework taking political sides by working with a vocal far right racist. If they want to stay neutral, they shouldn't be promoting them.
the_q
in reply to pegazz • • •Hominine
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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Evil_Shrubbery
in reply to Hominine • • •I'm eager to see their response (and actions taken).
It doesn't seem at all they supported toxic behavior directly for that, to advance the toxicity, just several projects.
\
Maybe they'll clarify their stance.
They are a tiny corp, they don't/can't PR immediately.
curbstickle
in reply to pegazz • • •Well, I was considering some Framework hardware, but holy shit they are off the list now.
Not just due to their lackluster response, but that thread is just..... infested with hard far right and no real moderation in sight. What the absolute fuck.
How disappointing.
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Comrade_Spood
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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BombOmOm
in reply to Comrade_Spood • • •They are supporting open source development. Unfortunately, not all open source developers share one's opinions.
I'll take it over alternatives any day.
Comrade_Spood
in reply to BombOmOm • • •Nah, if my support of them results in that money going to fascists, I don't care how much good they do. I am not going to support them. Expecting the people you work with and support to uphold certain basic values is not a huge expectation. The people they are supporting actively advocate and support racist and fascistic conspiracies. It is not that much to ask that Framework avoid them and support other open source developers. Its insane to not even have that level of standards. There are loads of open source developers, and people are just asking them to avoid the ones openly being racist.
If you don't think boycotting them till they renounce that support is reasonable, then I don't think we have any common ground to work with.
If Framework would drop support, I'll gladly get onw of their computers and support them. Till then, I ain't touching them and will stick with my current computer
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chronicledmonocle
in reply to pegazz • • •See.....when it comes to open source, it's a little different for me:
I don't support or condone any of these pricks, but I can mentally divorce, somewhat, the open source code contributions from the person, because their contributions are useful. If this was a closed source solution, it'd be different, because the code wouldn't be released into the community. There are a lot of weird, closet-dwelling shut ins that fall into the extremist margins.
A lot of early medical knowledge, for example, was acquired from.....less than morally clear ways. So do you just take that information and throw it away on principal? Does that make the death and pain of those people for nothing? Or do you use it and don't condone the person or their actions? This is a difficult moral choice to make that is heavily debated by philosophy, media, etc. There are entire SciFi TV episodes, movies, and books written about just such a debate.
That said, I don't know the usefulness of Hyprland. I've never used it and I feel like it's pretty niche, so I'm surprised Framework aren't telling this person to fuck off.
NuXCOM_90Percent
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •I would recommend actually talking with (I forget the fancy term) medical philosophers.
Yes, a LOT of modern medicine was created on the backs of torture and vile human experimentation. But a shockingly small amount of the data collected by Nazis et al were actually useful because so much of it was compromised by virtue of the "control" in those experiments generally being a torture victim who was in five other experiments in the past month. And a lot of said innovations boil down to "We all kind of suspected it but couldn't think of an ethical way to confirm it"
But the key thing to understand: There is a big difference between "Okay... that was REALLY fucking evil but Unit 731 created a lot of data we can sift through and it already exists..." and "Okay, hear me out. We COULD send in Seal Team Eight... or we could wait a few weeks to see if they make a better smallpox first"
And that is the thing here. I am 100% for taking advantage of what has already been done in the world of software development... although rewrites are a thing for a reason. But I am firmly opposed to funding or supporting ongoing work by those chuds. They should be ostracized and vilified at every turn.
prole
in reply to NuXCOM_90Percent • • •"Ethicist" maybe?
rozodru
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •It'd be one thing if the projects being supported were good and lead by devs with questionable ideals but I'm more upset that Framework decided to support a couple of really shitty projects lead by shitty people. I mean one dudes dotfiles and anothers very buggy WM that you can pay $5 to get "premium" for it? Cool Framework, that doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence in what YOU produce now.
I mean hell I got some killer dotfiles for Arch using River and Sway, where's my money?
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chronicledmonocle
in reply to rozodru • • •BombOmOm
in reply to rozodru • • •The thread being centered around this would be 100% more productive than what it has devolved into. Instead people are swearing off the most notable computer company that is fervently pushing for Right to Repair and supporting open source projects. Meanwhile most every other computer company is pushing in the opposite direction...
aesthelete
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •To put it in terms of your analogy, it's one thing to use Mengele's research after he's been stopped. It's another entirely to give his research funding when he's actively running the program.
One is making use of knowledge that comes out of terrible things, the other is complicity that borders on collaboration.
chronicledmonocle
in reply to aesthelete • • •That is fair. My example was extreme, though. These people are just assholes. Do you throw away the code of an asshole because they're an asshole?
I dunno.....I struggle with this internally. Maybe I'm wrong. It's a hard thing to rectify and I just wish people would stop being assholes to others.
AbidanYre
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •I think you need to factor in how prominent that person is on the project.
If an asshole contributes some code to a project, ok. If an asshole is the public face of the project, well, there are plenty of alternatives to use/fund instead.
lama
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •aesthelete
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •To use another example, a musician might be known to be an asshole during their lifetime. Then they die. Is it harmful to listen to their music if you're not contributing anything to their estate or their estate isn't run by similar assholes? It's debatable and a gray area, but I'd probably say no in most circumstances.
How about if they're known to be an asshole and you buy their albums anyway, you go to their concerts, and you loudly pronounce on social media how you support them and that their work is great? That's a much easier case to make to say, yes, you're being harmful.
You're supporting someone who is an asshole, and you're doing--at least--two types of harm:
(1) you're demonstrating tolerance for shitty behavior which does not provide a good negative reinforcement to correct the shitty behavior, and
(2) you're positively reinforcing the shitty behavior through your support
It might be more nuanced if there were higher stakes involved, such as if the good belying this debate was of crucial need to help along a much larger good cause. But that's where particulars matter. The contributions these assholes are making are not solving world hunger. They're nerdy little Linux bits.
Use the bullshit all you want, but for fuck's sake stop materially supporting and going on a promotional tour with the assholes that made it.
Damage
in reply to aesthelete • • •Yeah sure so you've destroyed your car, stopped buying fuel, gave up sigarettes, stopped buying stuff from Amazon, gave up the supermarket, single use plastics, gave up Windows and let's be honest, any other computer manufacturer aside from super niche ones? Because I guarantee you that the money you spend in that stuff is magnitudes more damaging than whatever tiny bit of a framework computer's value is going towards these two developers, let alone the fraction that they may actually invest in nefarious deeds.
People need to learn to pick their battles.
aesthelete
in reply to Damage • • •A key difference here is that Framework is trying to build a "community". At least some of their value depends upon community if you think about it for a bit (e.g., if nobody uses the marketplaces, they'd be empty of goods and a lot of the point is lost).
If they center assholes as being representative of what the community is about, they naturally exclude others by doing so.
It's easy to take the "can't we all just get along?" stance with this, but some things require a little more reasoning and philosophy than platitudes.
What good is a big tent if most normal people left the tent because you platformed assholes at its center?
dylanmorgan
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •vapeloki
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •I agree. Just as a little reminder. Methadone was initially invented by literal Nazis. It was designed to Combat Opium shortage in field hospitals.
Nobody would say: hey, let us not use this extremely helpful drug because Nazis contributed a lot to it.
On the other side: I would never give a Nazi company money to produce it. Two different scenarios
Evil_Shrubbery
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •Also megacorps doing shit like this (sponsoring) vs tiny companies focused on foss (without mega PR, mass propaganda, takeover budgets, etc) is very much not the same thing.
If Google was a tiny corp barely getting by I would morally consider it a lesser transgression using their services (lesser bcs I would still be helping/supporting a business practice that at some future date leads to current Google fuckeries).
kingthrillgore
in reply to chronicledmonocle • • •Irdial
in reply to pegazz • • •rozodru
in reply to Irdial • • •That's a really piss poor excuse though. It'd be one thing if it was "I like Hyprland, I'll support that" but then it's also "I also like Omarchy" annnnd now you're starting a trend that isn't a great on to start. THEN you have people in the know who see this trend and being to put two and two together.
Saying that Framework is tiny with no PR is no excuse. It takes all of a few minutes to discover what kind of piece of shit DHH is and what kind of bullshit the devs/mods over on Hyprland spew out. I mean I've been a developer for 20+ years now and I knew DHH was a piece of shit years ago. Hell anyone that's spent any time with Ruby knew he was a piece of shit years ago.
honestly if you had a bit of extra money on you that you wanted to donate to a charity you would utilize your common sense and research said charity before donating money right? I would hope so. I hope a lot of people would. That's what I do. I'm not going to throw money at some random charity then I later find out uses kittens as toilet paper.
So Framework coming out and saying "yeah we like to support open source projects, sure the ones we support are lead by racist homo/transphobes and a guy that thought Hitler had some neat ideas, no we're not going to discuss it" is not a great look.
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FreedomAdvocate
in reply to rozodru • • •Reginald_T_Biter
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •balance8873
in reply to Reginald_T_Biter • • •Reginald_T_Biter
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to Reginald_T_Biter • • •balance8873
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •SEND_BUTTPLUG_PICS
in reply to Irdial • • •balance8873
in reply to Irdial • • •SorteKanin
in reply to Irdial • • •But now they should know right? But the response makes it clear they don't really care. They want to include everyone in the "big tent", which clearly runs afoul of the paradox of tolerance. I am not a fan of their response.
NuXCOM_90Percent
in reply to pegazz • • •The thing to realize is that the reason EVERYONE knows about Framework Corp is that one of their larger investors is Linus Sebastien of Linus Media Group (most known for "Linus Tech Tips"). He/LMG have a long, well documented, history of conflicts of interest and even a few scandals (both in terms of manipulative data AND sex pestery) and have increasingly been revealed to be VERY manipulative of other channels they deem "smaller" (Rossman went off on them during one of the annual scandals)
So Framework's social media game is on lock both between their own in-house staff and whatever they get from "investor calls" as it were.
And you know what goes together like peanut butter and jelly? Youtubers and "accidentally" supporting really shitty chuds.
As for Framework Corp itself?
I dunno. To me it increasingly feels like a company designed to create/trademark IP that would greatly improve assembly line processes that haven't found an integrator willing to buy them out.
Because stuff like the "open source but we are the only ones that use it" proprietary "not a dongle but is something you plug into a usb c port to use different interfaces" and the pogo plug keyboards and so forth? I think Wendell at Level1Techs put it best where he acknowledged it was REALLY cool and something he would use once when buying the laptop and then as a fidget device during some meetings.
But for a "boutique" laptop integrator? That is something that can be done to really customize each laptop for each customer at minimal cost (by relying on cheap labor in a pre-Liberation Day world).
As for the rest of the laptops? Again, they look really cool. But every time I consider replacing my existing laptop I run the simple numbers. Too lazy to do it right now but basically:
Let
abe the price of the laptop you want from Framework and letbbe the price of just the motherboard+CPU of said laptop in the Framework marketplace. Letcbe the price of a comparable laptop at Best Buy or whatever.Framework only ever makes sense if
a+bis significantly less thanc*2. And every time I run the numbers? It is a few bucks cheaper, at best, and usually still more expensive. And all of that assumes you keep the same everything and are just "upgrading" the cpu. Which... considering Framework are already doing revisions of their chassis that, bare minimum, would involve heat pipe tweaks when upgrading... yeah.And... in theory having reusable parts means you decrease e-waste. In practice? How many of us still have a box of DDR3 ram that we are totally going to need some day? There is very much an argument for donating your old laptop to an org that will reuse them or just chucking it in an e-waste bin (after wiping and preferably drilling out the drive...).
I DO think this tech would be amazing for the kind of company that provisions laptops for medium sized businesses. But their software/support and pricing keep them out of that too.
But as it stands? It feels a lot like those phones that had swappable camera modules and the like. It SOUNDS amazing until you actually price them out... and then realize the company went out of business so you never even had a chance to upgrade your camera 5 years later.
And just to elaborate a bit on the power of social media. Think about how few reviewers have ANYTHING negative to say about Framework? And then actually watch some of the better reviews. Wendell has a very good professional relationship with LMG but it is telling that even he kind of acknowledges their big "repairability" innovation is... kind of a gimmick.
Contrast that with a Thinkpad where basically every reviewer will spend a good chunk talking about how they don't like Lenovo and the laptop has all these flaws... before begrudgingly acknowledging it is still a REALLY solid ultrabook and is, hands down, the best price to performance option for people who want to run Linux. Also the nub is love. The nub is life.
And you can see similar with the LTT Screwdriver. It is a licensed knockoff of a megapro (?) so of course it is quality. But look at reviewers like Project Farm. He is VERY good about providing the raw data and encouraging people to make their own choices based on what criteria matter to them. And then look at how he weighted the criteria to be able to say the LTT Screwdriver was, hands down, the best.
THAT is the power of social media and a rabid fanbase who are known to attack anyone who goes against their parasocial best friend. And that is what Framework has.
Nighed
in reply to NuXCOM_90Percent • • •NuXCOM_90Percent
in reply to Nighed • • •...
I mean... this IS "the press".
But even if you want to absolve Framework Corp of any guilt in that regard: it is still one of (if not THE) biggest "tech youtubers" with a known history of manipulating both the audience and his competitive with a financial interest in Framework Corp doing well.
Hence why people who have followed "tech reviews" for years (... decades. God damn it) have very much noticed that Framework Laptops get treated with kid gloves by a LOT of outlets.
kittenzrulz123
in reply to pegazz • • •architect
in reply to pegazz • • •Well I’m disappointed but not surprised.
We will need to build our own alternatives, starting with building a community.
I’m not a leader but I’m dying to help the cause.
Prunebutt
in reply to pegazz • • •Let's not act as if it's wise to be hopeful that any successful company can have decent politics (maybe if it's a worker coop). Spineless liberals is the best we can hope for.
It's just like with Valve and Nintendo: Companies are not your friends!
But let's also not act as if any political issue can be fought only in the language of consumerism. Stop falling for that "vote with your wallet" BS if you want to stop falling for these liberals.
kepix
in reply to pegazz • • •Spaz
in reply to kepix • • •balance8873
in reply to Spaz • • •balance8873
in reply to kepix • • •Yeah I don't think you get how this works. They had time to research the tool they are recommending but literally nothing about the backers or community? Framework will absolutely have a legal team whose job would include vetting these orgs.
But let's say you're right and framework is operating a company with no legal counsel (which is also a giant red flag): their response was "we are chill with terrible people in our space, we have a big tent". Not "you're right, we didn't do research on these guys thanks for bringing it to our attention we'll do some research". If they said that, this wouldn't be a thing. Instead, they said affirmatively "we don't care if they are white nationalists, we want to include white nationalists in our tent".
kepix
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to kepix • • •BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •Yep. And if customers are getting pissed due to charitable donations we are doing....that incurs a significant cost and becomes a massive hurdle for any future charitable donations.
So, as I said, lesson learned: don't support open source projects.
Edit: Next meeting about supporting open source project: "Hey this author has opinion x, anti-x is going to hate that. Let's just spend the money elsewhere."
Following meeting about supporting a different open source project: "Hey, this author has opinion anti-x, x is going to hate that. Let's just spend the money elsewhere."
balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •Auth
in reply to pegazz • • •HereIAm
in reply to Auth • • •like this
fif-t likes this.
Meldrik
in reply to HereIAm • • •TwiddleTwaddle
in reply to Meldrik • • •like this
Sickday likes this.
Meldrik
in reply to TwiddleTwaddle • • •TwiddleTwaddle
in reply to Meldrik • • •Bronzebeard
in reply to Meldrik • • •Meldrik
in reply to Bronzebeard • • •Bronzebeard
in reply to Meldrik • • •HereIAm
in reply to Meldrik • • •VeloRama
in reply to Meldrik • • •Meldrik
in reply to VeloRama • • •Auth
in reply to HereIAm • • •morphballganon
in reply to Auth • • •There's this huge movement in online spaces lately to bash any and all positions and opinions by calling them transphobic.
Vote right? Transphobic. Vote left? Transphobic. Abstain from voting? Transphobic. Support a company? Transphobic. Boycott a company? Transphobic. Indifferent about a company? Transphobic.
The simplest explanation is a bunch of right-wingers are trying to make the term meaningless. Anyway, nowadays when I hear someone is transphobic, I make sure to wait for solid evidence before changing my opinions.
aquovie
in reply to morphballganon • • •I get your point with the rest but...
Yeah, it kinda is? That's a core plank of the MAGA platform; it's practically inseparable. Unless you're talking non-USA parties but then there's still a better chance than none it's a yes.
Ohmmy
in reply to aquovie • • •I don't even think it "kinda is" I think it fully is. Trans rights are currently against tradition and the status quo, this makes trans rights a progressive topic until the day that trans people are so established in the history of a society that it can't be argued being trans is some new disorder or something.
I hope that one day Trans rights will have been so established globally that to challenge them is anti tradition and uncouth
FreedomAdvocate
in reply to Ohmmy • • •morphballganon
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •It has to do with a phenomenon that is censored in most online spaces, so I'll spell it out in capitals, aSjUrIbCoIgDaEl, basically if a person being denied care would cause them to off themselves, then denying care is tantamount to manslaughter.
Post-transition people are reportedly much happier than they were pre-transition, but right-wingers find that icky, so they'd rather commit war crimes than allow medicine to go to those who need it.
balance8873
in reply to morphballganon • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to morphballganon • • •What right is that? What care are they being denied?
Also your second paragraph is wrong. They still commit suicide at an enormous rate compared to the rest of the population, many studies showing increases post “transition”.
Also what “war crimes” are you talking about?
Bronzebeard
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to Bronzebeard • • •Where are the answers? A vague “they will commit suicide” isn’t an answer to “what rights don’t trans people have?”.
I take it you can answer the question, right? Or is your lack of an answer indicative of something?
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to aquovie • • •balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •No, if you think that, your brain is twisted by whatever spin your preferred media choice puts on.
The 2024 election was more about people wanting to see change, and one candidate clearly offering it and the other clearly not. Look at Harris' polling timeline, she was doing well up until the beginning of October, so what happened? For example, she wouldn't change anything from Biden's first term, except having a Republican in the cabinet. Trump took that and ran with that, and I think that describes her support dropping around that time. People were unhappy with Biden's first term, and she wouldn't say anything bad about it. I didn't watch the 60 minutes interview, but I'm guessing that went similarly.
I think most thought Trump was mostly rhetoric except the couple things they cared about. I think most thought he was bluffing about tariffs (or thought they'd work differently), thought he'd actually bring prices down, etc, which explains his cratering support so far. The average voter is kinda dumb/naive, but I don't think they were largely voting on hate against immigrants, trans people, etc.
Trump or Harris: Who’s ahead in the polls?
Financial Timesbalance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •I dunno I've watched enough of the maga people talk to be pretty confident they just hate the world.
The "this guy will shake things up" argument would make sense if he hadn't already been our single most corrupt president in a generation (until 47)
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Ah, yes, there are also the terminally dumb and uneducated. But those people are just weaponized votes. They don't appear to have their own thoughts or agency, just mindless drones following whatever their one podcast or one cable network or their one YouTube guy tells them to do.
But no, there's also plenty of videos of random magas in various formats, and a driving factor for those people appears to be hate (with a healthy mix of not understanding the concept of cause and effect)
BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •This is the response to people being unhappy prices sharply increased under Biden? People are hardly 'dumb and uneducated' for not liking price increases...
A statement that will always remain relevant: "It's the economy, stupid."
balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •No, they arent dumb for not liking price increases. It's the lack of understanding of cause and effect that makes them dumb, not liking or disliking an effect.
The reason that saying is relevant is because people are stupid. The president has to care about the economy but the reverse is almost never true
Of course as with many situations, trump is the exception to the rule: because congress isn't doing its job and is allowing trump to randomly increase costs by 100% then 50% then 200% then 100% over the course of a single summer, he has had an outsized impact on the economy in a way that no other president has had for generations. And he managed to do it twice, the first time bungling covid so badly that he contributed heavily to the massive inflation we've experienced since he was last in office.
The economy grows on stability, not random acts of chaos, violence, and retribution.
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •The messaging was:
What do you expect the average person to take away from that?
Harris ran an awful campaign IMO, so it's not surprising that people opted for the alternative.
balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •To the average voter who doesn't follow things very closely, the options were basically:
Unfortunately, far too many people blame the economy on the sitting President, when they often have little influence on it. Trump was president during an economic boom, and got out just as COVID was going. Biden was president through COVID, and by all accounts was incapable of the job during at least part of his term. What do you expect the average person to do who doesn't follow politics closely but catches bits and pieces closer to the election? Of course they'll go with the person promising change over the person promising the status quo...
balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •Maga? Really? I was very vocal about voting against him in all three elections.
I'm not saying Trump was the better candidate. I'm merely saying Harris ran a poor, tone-deaf campaign.
morphballganon
in reply to aquovie • • •If you read the rest you'll discover that the reactionaries don't care how you vote, they'll call you that regardless.
I'm taking from the downvotes that there are a lot of people here who got caught up on those first few words and didn't bother reading the rest or engaging their critical thinking skills...
balance8873
in reply to morphballganon • • •Noxy
in reply to morphballganon • • •That is correct.
morphballganon
in reply to Noxy • • •Yes agreed but if you read the whole thing...
There are people in online spaces that just slap the term on ANY opinion.
Want to form a coalition with moderates? Must be transphobic. Refuse to vote Dem because they're not progressive enough? Must be transphobic.
Bluesky is overrun with them. I'd hoped to find a place here where simply existing wasn't stigmatized, but these downvotes are telling me maybe Lemmy is overrun too...
balance8873
in reply to morphballganon • • •"where simply existing wasn't stigmatized"... Yeah I think that's what most people want including immigrants and trans people. You might need to take a good hard look at yourself for seemingly arguing that a project making it's own community an unsafe space for people is fine but you're the victim because people on blue sky called one too many things transphobic.
Other than that your sob story makes it sound like you're a problematic person and I doubt I'm alone in thinking that. I don't ever remember seeing an excessive amount of accusations of transphobia on bluesky, let alone reddit since it's 80% Russian bots. So maybe, just maybe, the problem is you. Do you maybe have opinions that regularly get you called a transphobe? At least, that's how I read your victim story.
FreedomAdvocate
in reply to morphballganon • • •You had me until this. The term is already meaningless because of the overuse from the left-wingers. No one right of the far-left cares about being called any of the "phobics" or "ists" anymore because they mean nothing now.
Ok at least you finished on the right note.
morphballganon
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to morphballganon • • •thundermoose
in reply to morphballganon • • •I don't think you can advocate for anything even remotely on the "right" in political discussions anymore unless you mean MAGA. That well is so poisoned at this point that everyone is going to assume you're a MAGA troll wearing a mask the second you voice any right-leaning opinion.
It's pretty unfortunate. There are plenty of "live and let live" types in the US that identify informally as libertarians and would make great allies.
RaivoKulli
in reply to pegazz • • •banshee
in reply to pegazz • • •DHH is clearly a turd, and I want nothing to do with his projects.
I'm not sure I understand the opposition to Hyprland though. I enjoy using Hyprland, so I've tried to make an informed opinion on whether the project is harmful. Note that I have only reviewed public information, so I might only be seeing the tip of the iceberg.
According to his blog posts, the creator of Hyprland seems to have received criticism well enough (back in 2023). Are other people in the community the main concern or am I missing something? Forgive my ignorance
badabim
in reply to banshee • • •There were some controversies due to the toxicity of Hpyrland's community (namely its discord server). See this post for example
Edit: I should have read OP's linked post first, which actually also refers to Drew's post.
Hyprland is a toxic community
drewdevault.combanshee
in reply to badabim • • •Yep that's I read from 2023.
He responded in a couple of blog posts:
- blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-h…
- blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-i…
I opened up the discord community just now to see what was there, and I just saw people being goofy and talking shit to each other. In all fairness, I wouldn't hang out there either, but that doesn't mean anything.
To summarize, I don't see the Hyprland devs trying to harm others. Folks like DHH are a different story. Of course this might all change tomorrow - who knows?
Ohh
in reply to banshee • • •Dhh is also a guy who fights apple and google and Microsofts. A guy who says the cloud is stupid, a guy who says American companies will do as instructed by the orange government hence Europe needs to build their own infrastructure and companies.
I am ok with that. Never heard or read about him being a conspiracy nut
banshee
in reply to Ohh • • •festus
in reply to pegazz • • •TwiddleTwaddle
in reply to festus • • •nialv7
in reply to festus • • •banshee
in reply to pegazz • • •Edit: meant to reply to another comment.
Corrected comment
banshee
2025-10-10 01:19:34
FEIN
in reply to pegazz • • •TheGrandNagus
in reply to FEIN • • •AdrianTheFrog
in reply to pegazz • • •i do want to point out how hard it is to even find out about the views of these people, if you just look up the names of the projects and aren't specifically looking for this information there's no way you'll find anything about it
even looking up the name of David Heinemeier Hansson, the more vocally bad of these, i had to go to the 5th link to find anything even vaguely mentioning his views
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to AdrianTheFrog • • •Isn't that a good thing?
I don't know about you, but I don't really care what the views of the owners of a business are. It only becomes a problem if they make those views plain.
AdrianTheFrog
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to AdrianTheFrog • • •Were the views associated with the company? Or was it purely a personal blog?
The distinction matters. Many people are able to separate business from politics, but some are not. The former aren't a concern, the latter definitely are.
DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Your right. I can't seperate people/business and politics.
Because people take the money from business and advocate for the death of me and my trans community.
I don't see a reason to spereate those two.
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to DoPeopleLookHere • • •The furthest I've seen is advocating for conservative politicians, which is generally for more favorable tax treatment and maybe some more flexibility in what services they need to provide to their employees.
I don't think business owners care about the trans community for good or ill. The only reason it seems that conservatives care at all is because liberals are so vocal about it. And liberals aren't even really pushing for anything to help the trans community, it's mostly lip service.
The real enemy isn't you average conservative voter, but specific politicians pushing a populist agenda, which paints trans people as the enemy. If it wasn't trans people, it would be gay people, some variety of immigrant, etc, the target is less important to the movement, they just need to be weak and unpopular enough for them to get away with it. Again, it's not your average voter, but whoever is pushing that agenda.
DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Wow. Okay. Thats a really bad response.
First off, that's still indefensible? Like advocating for less worker safety isn't a good thing right? Or lower pay? Like those are all agreeable bad things for companies to be doing right?
We'll come back to the second "where the money comes from".
That's a pretty broad brush there.
Chick-fil-A does a pretty good job of showing you that's not a rule by any means.
This makes no sense, If neither side cares, then why is it a problem?
Also, why are conservatives in your view just reactionary to what every 'liberals' are saying?
This is so submissive to hate. Heaven forbid we don't tolerate intolerance? This is such dismissive "it's the way it is" talk.
I never said my problem is with the average voter (although the average Republican voter absolutely hate my guts). My problem is with the money that flows. It's the money fueling this hate. So yes, where I spend money has ALWAYS been political. So yes, it matters who my money is funding, and if that fund is funding my danger.
Is Chick Fil A still anti-LGBTQ+? Here’s its full record
Ryan Adamczeski (Advocate.com)sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to DoPeopleLookHere • • •I think it makes logical sense. They own a business, so they see everything as a cost, and that includes employee benefits. They're merely voting for their self interests.
And while I likely disagree with them, I think that's how the system should work.
The counter to that should be regular people voting for their self-interests. Average people want better benefits and whatnot, so theoretically politicians should take that into account when crafting policy.
The issue here isn't business owners voting for their self-interest, but a mix of politicians not actually providing good representation and yet still getting reelected (gerrymandering), not having good options (only two candidates are viable), and media spin (again, with only two parties, they need to pick one to get favorable treatment).
That's their purpose. Conservatives are pretty universally against change/in favor of reverting change, while liberals want more change. Sometimes you want one more than the other, depending on what's going on.
The problem is that our political system only has two viable options, so both parties jump all over the place to pick up votes and it's actually unclear why they have the positions they do. For example, Republicans used to be super anti-union (they love representative democracy, but not in the private sphere?), yet they courted labor unions last year. Why? To get swing state voters. They're less about pushing ideas and more about maintaining power.
The real issue isn't conservative voters, but our entire voting system. If we had 5 viable parties, people could effectively vote for the direction they want the country to go. If you don't like the way the GOP is, you should demand more viable options so people can express themselves better.
DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Can you see how dehumanizing that is? Viewing people as cost?
This is how Nazis start by the way, not viewing people as people
Employees are still people. Business should take care of people, not the other way arround.
Your assumption is that every side serves a purpose. But when we say "hey we shouldn't kill people" and the answer is "shut up libtard" can you see how they don't have a "purpose" other than to spread hate?
And I'm not gonna copy and paste the rest of them comment.
I know who my problem with is, is it's just hate. Not exclusively politicians, anyone who wants to seee dead.
Can I just say, get fucked? Must be nice when your existence isnt political.
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to DoPeopleLookHere • • •The Nazis are a completely different story. It wasn't that they saw Jews as a cost or as objects, it's that they saw them as less than objects, they viewed them as actively threatening the country. As in, this was active hate, not apathy.
A business owner is primarily concerned with the health of the business, and costs threaten that health. If mandatory benefits are too high, that may threaten the viability of the business, and limits options for competition.
The counter to this is everyone else voting in favor of mandatory benefits and whatnot. If the system is working properly, both sets of voices will be heard and representatives will push for something for both groups.
I assume you're talking about gun rights? You're using favorable rhetoric for one side and unfavorable rhetoric for the other. Let's look at their actual policy proposals:
"Assault weapons" have consistently been defined as "scary looking guns," and each has an equivalent that is less scary looking and just as effective. High capacity mags are easy to jerry-rig from legal mags, and DIY mags are easy to make with a 3D printer and a spring or two. These types of laws are mostly to grab headlines and get someone reelected, not to actually solve any problem.
Likewise, saying "enforce current laws" requires citizens to actually cooperate with police, and for police to actually deserve that level of trust. They don't lffer any kind of change to police accountability, so this is merely a way to get gun enthusiasts to support them for reelection and not piss off other voters so they can get reelected.
Neither party is actually solving any problems on this issue, they merely speak to their base to get elected. So the rhetoric here should be dismissed, and voters should focus on the issues where the parties are actually interested in doing work (for GOP, it's mostly taxes and regulations, and for Dems it's mostly entitlements and regulations; neither party seems to focus on social issues beyond rhetoric).
If you're talking about something else, then please, elucidate so we can discuss it.
My point is that the GOP isn't your enemy, nor are they your friend. In a twin party system, you're going to have a party that covers each extreme up to the middle.
If you strongly dislike a given party, don't push against that party (that won't get anywhere), but instead push against the two party system, because that's what allows that party to have the power it does. If third parties were viable, neither the Dems or GOP would exist in their current forms. You'd actually know who your enemies are because they'd out themselves by the party they support.
DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •I didn't say that's where it ended, it starts with stripping people's humanity away by thinking of them as a number in your record books. Just like your suggesting.
Your going to straight face tell me that this isn't what tump is doing? Rounding up immigrants and trans people as antifa?
It's not apathy right now. It's active hate. Go to any protest and see the right wingers with their attitude. See the Israelites in the US loose their mind on people standing up for Palestinians.
No. Human Rights.
When the 'left' calls for and protests for not killing of black (see what Kyle Rittenhouse did), Muslims, immigrants, trans people, ect.. It's always shut up no one cares.
And the GOP only has power, so long as the people that vote for them support them. And they elected a Nazi crew, so yes, my problem is with the people who voted for this hate.
FreedomAdvocate
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Even then, who cares tbh.
balance8873
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •FreedomAdvocate
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Wow I guess if you have to scroll all the way to the fifth whole link it can't possibly be plain, can it?
Sure the business owner thinks anyone who isn't white doesn't count as a person, but he only uses the resources you give him to promote that point of view as a hobby, so why worry?
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •I don't know, was it a personal blog, some social media post, or a page on the company's website? You didn't specify, and I honestly don't care enough to try to replicate your search.
If they're able to separate personal views from how they run their company, it shouldn't really matter what those views are.
balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •This is the part I'm talking about:
You are not the person I originally responded to, how would you know they were referencing the OP? There aren't even 5 links in the article, and if we count the embedded X posts, the fifth link is about Hyprland. I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP is referring to.
The OP's point is that it's hard to find info on these people's views, and the links in the OP are from other people doing that digging. As in, we likely wouldn't know their views if these bloggers didn't dig through posts looking for it.
balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •You mean big tent politics? That's inevitable with a 2-party system.
That said, theyade a donation to FOSS projects and FOSS shouldn't be political.
balance8873
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •I didn't realize framework was a two party system 🙄
Everything is political, that's a ridiculous take.
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to balance8873 • • •bss03
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to bss03 • • •DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to DoPeopleLookHere • • •DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to DoPeopleLookHere • • •DoPeopleLookHere
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •bss03
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to bss03 • • •bss03
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Using your wallet doesn't have to be political.
Voting is, by definition, political. It is a common part of several different methods of resolving coordination problems (i.e. politics).
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to bss03 • • •No,, voting is only political if it's part of a political process. Everyone in a group voting what kind of pizza to order isn't political, and it can merely be informative (e.g. the person ordering the pizza could pick something else). Voting is only political when it involves government.
"Voting with your wallet" a metaphor. It just means changing your shopping habits so a company loses revenue, usually due to a recent change. Maybe it's a policy you don't like, or maybe it's a drop in quality or something. It's usually not a political act, though it can occasionally impact political policy (e.g. if the boycott is in response to a political change that involves the target company).
bss03
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •Yes, it literally is. That's what politics is: how we control group behavior.
sugar_in_your_tea
in reply to bss03 • • •bss03
in reply to sugar_in_your_tea • • •"A methodology and activities associated with running [...] an organization" -- en.wiktionary.org/wiki/politic…
Any organizational decision is politics, including but not limited to a group of people organizing a pizza meal.
politics - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Wiktionarysugar_in_your_tea
in reply to bss03 • • •You skipped the part that said "government." If you read the rest of the definitions, they all have to do with politics and power, even if they're not governments themselves. So think political parties, PACs, etc. Some non-government entities can have enough power to be comparable to that, such as large companies where maneuvering feels like maneuvering in a government.
Here are other definitions:
All of them are principally about government, or things closely resembling a government. That doesn't leave room for a small laptop manufacturer or small FOSS project, because they don't resemble governments. The same goes for patronizing a business or not, that's not a political act, because we're not dealing with the types of power associated with politics.
Definition of politics
Merriam-Webster Dictionaryteolan
in reply to AdrianTheFrog • • •It's pretty plain on DHH's blog:
I wonder what characteristic he uses to define « native brits » that can be seen when walking.
Or just take a look at his twitter. Which Framework obviously did since they retweet a lot of his posts...
SkaveRat
in reply to teolan • • •A breakdown of DHHs racist post, in case people don't want to look up the original
jakelazaroff.com/words/dhh-is-…
DHH Is Way Worse Than I Thought | jakelazaroff.com
jakelazaroff.comboonhet
in reply to teolan • • •immobile7801
in reply to pegazz • • •kate
in reply to pegazz • • •This is unfortunate for sure. I want to give them a few days to respond for real, it's always possible they just didn't know about the issues here, but even in that thread they're brushing it off as though it doesn't matter. I'm not really sure what they get out of donating to these projects other than potential PR, anyway.
On a personal level I've recommended their laptops to people who have later bought them, and I was even looking at buying one myself to replace my aging macbook, but I don't think I can do that anymore while this is unaddressed.
kate
in reply to kate • • •Echo Dot
in reply to kate • • •I think it's more about repair ability than it is about upgrading. At some point you're going to end up with hardware that needs a different motherboard and then you might as well just replace the whole thing. There really isn't anything that can be done about that.
To be honest I kind of think framework go a bit far on the modularity of the device, it's a nice to have but really I'd be perfectly fine with a laptop that just has a replaceable keyboard, screen and battery, as those pretty much exclusively tend to be the parts that go wrong. Hell you could strip it down even further and just have an easily replaceable battery and it would probably be fine for 90% of people.
expr
in reply to Echo Dot • • •I mean, there's no real reason laptops shouldn't like any desktop computer with parts that can be swapped out. Maybe when laptops were first coming on the market with a difficult form factor to work with, but it's been long enough that modularity should be easy and the default.
If you can swap out tiny little SIM cards in a phone, you should be able to slot in standardized, smaller form-factor components like RAM, SSDs, etc.
And by the way, people can and do swap out motherboards all the time for desktops. There is no good reason to need to buy all new components all the time.
Echo Dot
in reply to expr • • •Yeah but you can't put a non ATX motherboard in an ATX case it physically doesn't fit.
Unlike desktops where you can get oversized cases laptops are all designed towards the board the really isn't that much space in a framework laptop. Like I don't you could go up a couple of inches and get a bigger screen for example because the whole frame wouldn't fit it.
SkaveRat
in reply to Echo Dot • • •Hell no, I love that I can just upgrade to a better Mainboard in a couple years
Why would I also ditch all the other components because of a CPU change?
Echo Dot
in reply to SkaveRat • • •I mean I assume it's because you wouldn't in fact be able to get constant upgrade you'd end up being limited by socket design and things.
There has already been at least one incompatible motherboard upgrade. Essentially a whole new line of framework laptops.
SkaveRat
in reply to Echo Dot • • •Yup, I'm not s huge fan of the FW12 because of the 3rd format they now have to maintain
But the Mainboard of 12, 13 and 16 are all interchangeable inside their model line
You're not really limited by socket design, as you change out the whole motherboard
The only limit is the physical size inside the case. And maybe thermals
BombOmOm
in reply to Echo Dot • • •You can just buy a newer, better mainboard on their website and slot it into your existing laptop. No need to change out everything. I fucking love them for that.
Framework Marketplace | Mainboards
Frameworkbss03
in reply to kate • • •I'd imagine Dell or Lenovo would ALSO be giving money to people you disagree with, albeit more secretively. Plus, their laptops are less repairable.
There's no ethical consumption under Capitalism, so you pick the "best" choice; Framework might still be "best", they haven't discarded all their competitive advantage.
I'll probably do System76 for my next laptop, but I was considering Framework for my next phone. I don't expect to need to purchase either soon tho, so lots of time for the decision calculus to change.
pyre
in reply to pegazz • • •Phoenixz
in reply to pyre • • •pyre
in reply to Phoenixz • • •agents of shield. someone develops a tech called framework in the second half of the show. hydra is somehow involved, which makes this a great reference that nobody got because that show is criminally underrated.
it's also the best marvel tv show despite being shafted by marvel movies because apparently the heads of movies and tv didn't get along or something.
FreedomAdvocate
in reply to pegazz • • •All this because Hyprland......checks notes......seems to allow free speech on their discord?
Guys.........come on lol. Why do some people try to make absolutely everything political? not just political either, but radical levels of political extremism. Don't judge a company by the things random unaffiliated people say on their forums lol. Hell, even if they are affiliated - who cares? Eat some concrete.
iii
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •balance8873
in reply to iii • • •Yes a powerful and influential figure in the open source community using his platform to actively promote racist hate speech is literally identical to a 17 yo at burger king. Truly a brilliant analysis of the situation.
I agree with your last statement unironically.
Alphane Moon
in reply to FreedomAdvocate • • •It's funny how the most loud free speech warriors have the most superficial, performative understanding of free speech.
People get beat up by security services in authoritian regimes for reporting on corruption, but for "FreedomAdvocate" here, free speech is about the right to use slurs on Discord.
There is almost an abstract beauty to this level of debasement and regressivness.
iii
in reply to Alphane Moon • • •teolan
in reply to iii • • •And defending your right to associate with assholes whitout being shamed about it makes you look very much like an asshole.
Alphane Moon
in reply to iii • • •Your continue in the same style and doubling down on victim-hood polemics.
Of course free speech includes a variety of viewpoints.
I am pointing out that "FreedomAdvocate" has a comically preformative view on free speech. Rejecting people who use the slur "tranny" is not a free speech issue and shows that FA doesn't actually care or believe in free speech.
It's all theatrics to try and show how allegedly independent he is and how is an alleged free thinker.
Embarrassing really.
Gino_Pilotino667
in reply to pegazz • • •balance8873
in reply to pegazz • • •pegazz
in reply to balance8873 • • •balance8873
in reply to pegazz • • •lengau
in reply to balance8873 • • •I don't care if they're selling computers to fascist psychos.
I do care that they're using their soapbox to promote those fascist psychos.
VeloRama
in reply to lengau • • •Depends. If "Framework" became a nazi dog whistle like Lonsdale was a while ago, that alone would be a reason for me to not buy any Framework products.
BombOmOm
in reply to balance8873 • • •A computer company doesn't do a political evaluation of each of their customers. When was the last time you had to submit your political beliefs in order to buy a computer from...anywhere?
balance8873
in reply to BombOmOm • • •majster
in reply to pegazz • • •Sally Strange
in reply to majster • • •majster
in reply to Sally Strange • • •wetling
in reply to majster • • •Sally Strange
in reply to wetling • • •majster
in reply to wetling • • •expr
in reply to majster • • •Umm, Trump has been forcefully expelling people en masse for quite some time now, and detaining large groups of people in horrible conditions (sound familiar?). Have you not been paying attention?
The regime is absolutely, without a doubt, 100% fascist. It's following the Nazi playbook to a T.
Stop sanewashing his actions.
majster
in reply to expr • • •Sally Strange
in reply to majster • • •Flipper
in reply to Sally Strange • • •bss03
in reply to majster • • •Palingenetic ultranationalism is a definition of "true fascism" proposed by political theorist Roger Griffin.
So, you are painting with a fairly fine brush there. While "Nazi" is more metaphorical, there are definitely people with authority in the US government that are literally fascists.
VeloRama
in reply to majster • • •Harbinger01173430
in reply to pegazz • • •Guess this solidifies it.
I am going to buy their Ryzen ai ITX PC.
nroth
in reply to pegazz • • •Bluewing
in reply to nroth • • •moderatecentrist
in reply to Bluewing • • •I've been thinking similar things. Maybe online platforms, including Lemmy, can be a bit unhealthy.
In the real world, if you say something a bit embarrassing in front of one person, they'll probably forget it after a while. Years later, nobody knows you said it. But on Lemmy, if I tell one person my opinion on a topic, that opinion exists on my profile for the rest of time, unless I delete the comment or my profile.
Senal
in reply to Bluewing • • •Is this situation relevant to that example? Are the people in question changed since the time in which the accusations were made?
Rebranding personal ethics and morals as "a purity test" is disingenuous at best.
If you're going to take umbridge with someone's approach at least do it directly instead of this backhanded high horse bullshit.
thax
in reply to Bluewing • • •Waryle
in reply to nroth • • •Wether you like it or not, some people don't have the luxury to stop fighting, even more so right now with so-called democratic governments that brutalize, lock up and torture people for their opinions, their sexuality or their skin color.
Ignore these debates if you wish, and disconnect from social networks if you need to rest. But don’t call for people to stop fighting when their very existence is put at risk by people like DHH, that Framework decided to support.
SkaveRat
in reply to nroth • • •Sadly, the official discord server appears to also be a cesspool. So the community is also not that great
Which sucks, because omarchy seems to be quite nice
nialv7
in reply to nroth • • •whoisearth
in reply to nialv7 • • •kingthrillgore
in reply to pegazz • • •TheObviousSolution
in reply to pegazz • • •Did the author bother contacting them first before treating them like utter garbage and trying to rile up a public lynch mob? Just because something is well known to you doesn't make it well known to everyone. If there are no alternatives with the feature set you are looking for, then sometimes you even have to overlook questionable authors, sort of like Lemmy. If it's open source and has a license that allows forks, it doesn't matter that much.
You use open source because of functionality. It didn't used to be too long ago when people bothered to prove other people wrong through example instead of persecution. If you never convince people they are wrong, you just favor them creating and being in as much of an echo chamber as yourself. Even when they can't be convinced, there are other people listening to the conversation.
Even just from looking at it from a practical standpoint, it would sink just about any company if they have to go full FBI investigation for every single member. If you agree with OP so much, then why do you not agree with OP?
Some people want to watch the world burn bridges.
bss03
in reply to TheObviousSolution • • •Yes, the community.frame.work is the preferred method for asking questions to Framework (see: frame.work/support), and the first post makes a few statements about non-Framework persons/projects and Framework has sponsored, and asks one question to Framework.
So, if you'd read the damn post, you'd know this is exactly how Framework asks to be engaged.
Assistance
FrameworkTheObviousSolution
in reply to bss03 • • •You mean the post that literally says otherwise and that the quote from OP I had in my original comment agreed with?
Yes, I can see the reading is strong with you.
I can't even imagine the fundamentally flawed view of the world to think the best way to solve an issue like this is to first go through a public forum. Are you named Karen, by any chance?
bss03
in reply to TheObviousSolution • • •Even in what you quoted, Framework has provided no more preferred communication method for this discussion.
No, my name is Stephen.
TheObviousSolution
in reply to bss03 • • •frame.work/en/en/contact-us
Because mod or alt mod removed it:
You mean the post that literally says otherwise and that the quote from OP I had in my original comment agreed with?
I can't even imagine the fundamentally flawed view of the world to think the best way to solve an issue like this is to first go through a public forum.
I'll excuse the rest of the comment, but check out the modlogs if you want to do so. Guess rule 3 is enforced directionally.
Contact Us
Frameworkbss03
in reply to TheObviousSolution • • •From that page:
TheObviousSolution
in reply to bss03 • • •Pretty sure I've made my opinion clear. Well, at least before you were offended by a slight comment and tried to and successfully removed the comment with the context. So much for public forums then, huh. The page has a direct way of contacting them through email for more sensitive issues like this, you are the one choosing to skip the option.
EDIT: ... Yes, should have been clear with the edit I made, although it was a description that aptly applied to your behavior and that of the people I criticized. Meanwhile you get off ranting "if you’d read the damn post" and that's apparently hunky dory. Yeah, no, sometimes mod's biases are quite clear, and with these sort of biases you have people downvoting with no comment history or activity whatsoever. Just saying, some people want to watch the world burn bridges.
bss03
in reply to TheObviousSolution • • •I can't remove anything. I not a mod or admin of anything throughout the Fediverse. I think I can delete my own posts, but that might (and probably should) leave a deletion log similar to the edit log. (Actually the delete log should just be an edit log that ends with "DELETED".)
EDIT: The mod log says the comment violated rule 3. I think the part of your comment using a common name as an indirect insult might have not "be[en] excellent to" me, but that's just a guess.
SL3wvmnas
in reply to bss03 • • •VeloRama
in reply to TheObviousSolution • • •TheObviousSolution
in reply to VeloRama • • •VeloRama
in reply to TheObviousSolution • • •TheObviousSolution
in reply to VeloRama • • •ദ്ദി, but your evaluation means nothing to me but subjective hearsay.
Here is what responding in the actually proper context looks like: reddit.com/r/framework/comment…
Reygle
in reply to pegazz • • •I work for a fascist. He's my father. Fox is on his TV in his office beside mine right now. I suppose most would hate me if they knew that without knowing I cancel his vote out every time.
This might be a similar kind of situation.
bss03
in reply to Reygle • • •I think there's a fundamental asymmetry between receiving resources from persons you disagree with and providing resources to persons you disagree with. As long as your tasks aren't doing fascism, I think it's fine to get paid by (i.e. take money away from) fascists. But, no matter what you might get from persons with bad politics, if you transfer resources to them, they are going to use those resources to pursue those bad politics.
(BTW, Fox isn't right-wing enough for the real fascists; too many facts. OAN is what they watch, I think.)
Reygle
in reply to bss03 • • •SorteKanin
in reply to bss03 • • •I get what you're saying here and mostly agree, but just want to point out that you are transferring a resource - your labour. So it is a bit more nuanced than this.
bss03
in reply to SorteKanin • • •100% agreed. Just accepting business from an "out and proud" fascist, even if the task you were doing for them was community service, could be normalizing their "brand" enough that it's not worth doing. Selling ad space/time is also very questionable; tho, you might offset that with bumpers that let people know you what you actually think of the persons that bought the ad. Nuance is the rule, and two people that agree on moral principles might still do the moral calculus for any particular trade differently.
But, I don't think we need to (e.g.) add field of endeavor restrictions to our software licenses just to deny bad actors the same access we give to all other users/distributors universally. I don't think morally repugnant persons should be left out of food or housing programs or UBI. The fact that morally disagreeable people can buy a Framework is totally immaterial. The fact that among all the (nigh innumerable) software projects that Framework uses, they choose to directly support one (or more) where the people taking control of those resources are morally disagreable is a concern.
SaharaMaleikuhm
in reply to Reygle • • •frozen
in reply to pegazz • • •Toastface
in reply to frozen • • •mholiv
in reply to frozen • • •VeloRama
in reply to frozen • • •☂️-
in reply to pegazz • • •xyguy
in reply to pegazz • • •I would say most of the customers of Framework are the kinds of people who espouse the kind of antifascist ideology that that guy that started the thread does.
I don't think that the fascist sympathizer circle and the "willing to pay more money for an ethical laptop that isn't beholden to a big corporation for repair" circles have much overlap.
This is easy, "Framework doesn't support fascism or racism in any form. We support open source software and right to repair. Due to concerns with ideology in some of the projects we sponsor we are reviewing the projects we sponsor to make sure that they align with our values as a company."
The fact that they aren't willing to say so says plenty.
like this
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muusemuuse
in reply to xyguy • • •Exactly. While I appreciate that a stock corporate “we’re looking into it and will complete our investigation right after you forget about it” would likely not go over well here, the response they issued basically made the concerns seem like a low priority.
Giving money to right wingers is no longer an issue of differing opinions. It’s literally arming the people that want people like me dead. I can’t dismiss that to keep the peace. I can’t just sit here and say “fine, I will allow myself and my entire community to be snuffed out quietly because it’s more convenient for you.”
The poster’s concerns were clear and vivid. Easily understood. And immediately dismissed.
It’s unbearably frustrating that so many in the world are think the complaints of those being oppressed aren’t important. I keep getting the response of “who cares, you’ll be dead soon anyway and then this argument won’t matter”
SL3wvmnas
in reply to muusemuuse • • •While I agree in principle, the response from the CEO, was: only like 5% of people we give money to are ~~racist Nazi bigots~~ "controversial", let's agree to disagree and move on.
Which is massive narcissitic, non-empathic behaviour. It's giving me less "you don't matter because soon you'll be dead"-vibes and more "I am literally unable to understand your concerns and empathise with you"-vibe, which to me personally is much more damning.
Gobbel2000
in reply to pegazz • • •_stranger_
in reply to pegazz • • •I'm posting my take here before reading any comments, but I will be looking for validation or good counter arguments:
This feels like Framework admitting that the opensource community is too small to exclude anyone, or maybe that they feel they can't exclude anyone because doing so would damage their ability to do business? I'm not picking up a "we love nazis" vibe, I'm picking up a "nazis are fucking everywhere, what do you want us to do, for fucks sake" vibe.
I don't know how I feel about that yet.
gnuplusmatt
in reply to _stranger_ • • •nialv7
in reply to _stranger_ • • •_stranger_
in reply to nialv7 • • •Yeah I agree completely with that sentiment.
Maybe they didn't know before, but they definitely know now. It'll be interesting to see how they respond going forward.
whoisearth
in reply to pegazz • • •The elephant in the room more people need to pay attention to that many of us who work in IT are painfully intimate with.
Many IT people are hardcore libertarians who believe in some warped idea that they are where they are through their intelligence and hardwork while completely ignoring many of them come from backgrounds that afforded them the opportunities they are taking advantage of.
100% many of them are sexist, racist and bigoted pieces of shit that hide it at work because they're adept at masking the fact that a lot of them are borderline autistic at worst and neurodivergent at best.
This is also why you see such a deep investment in idiocy like AI, Bitcoin and other paradigm shifts. They all have their heads up their asses and feel they're better than everyone else.
Couple all this with the demographic being primarily white males.
Fuck talk to any woman who works in IT. It's changing yes, but Jesus Christ it's a cesspool in many ways.
Source: 25+ years in IT
ByteOnBikes
in reply to whoisearth • • •At my company, most of the IT team are hardcore Trump supporters who do not see a problem with working with LGBTQIA people and being polite to their face, while also wanting them to have less rights.
Yes, they are all white men. And yes, all of them will tell you how hard they worked to get there, completely oblivious of how much an advantage they got to get there.
bss03
in reply to whoisearth • • •I was this person. It is possible to reform, but it takes genuine curiosity and willingness to be wrong. Neither of those is rewarded by the IT environment of the last 30 years.
synae[he/him]
in reply to whoisearth • • •White dude in software here to echo the same sentiment. So many of my colleagues have never experienced any hardship of their own or viewpoints of people with different experiences. They don't think about how their privilege has helped them get where they are, and how their company culture often subtly (at best!) reinforces their worldview and massages their egos. They've never tried to think critically about their "meritocracy" or "libertarian" beliefs and how many people are unjustly excluded from the lifestyle they enjoy.
20 years in software development for me.
frog_meister
in reply to pegazz • • •Who cares? This is just an attempt to censor things you don't like so that other people don't get to see them.
Grow up.
nialv7
in reply to frog_meister • • •Huh? This has nothing to do with censorship. You can still see the abhorrent takes from DHH or vaxry if you so choose. We are just asking framework to not support them monetarily.
Stop calling any act of criticism censorship, grow up.
Tollana1234567
in reply to pegazz • • •FinishingDutch
in reply to Tollana1234567 • • •As an avid gamer, it’s ANNOYING AS FUCK.
When a new game is out, I want to know about bugs and performance, not whether or not the writing is ‘woke’, what characters are LGBTQ or how somehow any other aspect of it is related to this culture war. Fuck off with that far right bullshit.
Gaming forums should be about games. Leave politics and other bullshit out of it.
These days I just look at YouTube reviews and skip Steam’s comment section for at least a month after launch.
VeloRama
in reply to Tollana1234567 • • •kennedy
in reply to pegazz • • •BombOmOm
in reply to kennedy • • •Wispy2891
in reply to pegazz • • •like this
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banause
in reply to Wispy2891 • • •tbh, the hyperland thing is, for me personally, not too dramatic. Like there was a failure in moderation and response, but "a manufacturer that supports an floss project that has a discord channel where a mod changed the pronouns of a user and the admin of said channel didn't respond harshly enough" sounds "forgiveable". Not ideal, but also not super dramatic.
DHH on the other hand 😅😂...
nialv7
in reply to banause • • •banause
in reply to nialv7 • • •nialv7
in reply to banause • • •drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/202…
P.S. you are right. Google has gotten so much worse compared just a year ago. I had no trouble finding this back then, now I have to dig.
FDO's conduct enforcement actions regarding Vaxry
drewdevault.combanause
in reply to nialv7 • • •Thanks 😁
Okay, first of all, I agree with the general sentiment. You should not donate money to facists. Which DHH clearly is. (I mean, it's absurd that we even have to talk about this in 2025, right? 😅) Just to be completely clear here.
I also agree that the hyperland community is full of assholes. However, being an ignorant asshole is different from being a fascist. If you read the blog of that hyperland guy, I get clearly the picture of an arrogant priviledged dude. However, he does not appear to be a nazi. (I wouldn't hang around with him, but he is not a fascist.)
And for me personally, that doesn't qualify for a boycott. If we draw the line there, boy would we end up with a lot of services to boycott. Even Linus Torvalds himself is kinda a dick at times (a differen kind yes, but still). Richard Stallman is bonkers. Don't get me started on Mark Shuttleworth. However, that doesn't mean that they are fascists and we need to exclude them from our communities. It doesn't mean that any corp donating to the Linux Foundation is evil and need to be boycotted.
Again, the argument against FW still stands because of DHH and their poor handling of the situation. But honestly, continuing to use hyprland in general is okay in my eyes. Supporting them with money is a bit more nuanced of course, but doesn't qualify to get cancelled.
VeloRama
in reply to pegazz • • •VeloRama
in reply to VeloRama • • •Got the source web.archive.org/web/2025092505…
Money quote:
As I remember London
web.archive.orglike this
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