Benvenuto nel Poliverso

GrapheneOS

1 anno fa • •

GrapheneOS
1 anno fa • •

FUTO apps aren't open source but rather source available with heavy restrictions on usage:

They're taking the place of real open source apps and making it less likely for viable options to emerge since people are going to use and contribute to these.

android-keyboard/LICENSE.md at master · futo-org/android-keyboard

Offical FUTO Keyboard Issue Tracker and Source Mirror of https://gitlab.futo.org/keyboard/latinime - futo-org/android-keyboard

^GitHub

Carlos Solís likes this.

in reply to GrapheneOS

FUTO made a $40k donation to GrapheneOS supposedly with no strings attached. They ended up being unhappy with us not making content with them and promoting them. They began supporting attacks on us and tried to destroy the GrapheneOS project. Recommend not taking money from them.

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

It's not hyperbole to say that FUTO has caused millions of dollars of damage to GrapheneOS with the fabrications and spin they're still actively spreading about us. Any developer offered money by them should be aware of what happens if you don't promote them and tolerate abuse.

in reply to GrapheneOS

professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

What things have they said that have harmed the project? And how did that cause millions of dollars in damages?

in reply to professional money eater

Life.is.beautiful

in reply to professional money eater • 1 anno fa • •

@antsyboi
True.

@GrapheneOS Calm Down.
@GrapheneOS

@GrapheneOS @professional money eater

in reply to Life.is.beautiful

GrapheneOS

in reply to Life.is.beautiful • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful @antsyboi They caused millions of dollars in harm to GrapheneOS through creating a massive harassment campaign targeting the lead developer of the project because we didn't give them what they wanted in exchange for the $40k and had issues with how they were treating us because of it. They were supporting bullying towards one of our developers and then tried to destroy their life because they were upset about it entirely in private in a direct message after being swatted.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

Life.is.beautiful

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Okay.
Swatted seems pretty serious.

Maybe bring out a detailler blog post as a statement and not give everyone the impression that you are just accusing without valid proof.

If what you are saying is the truth, why not show all the proof in a detailled analysis?

The 1 Mio Dollar feel to be plucked out of thin air.

With communication methods like these you scare a lot people away from installing GOS, although it's the best out there.

-writing this from my GOS phone

@antsyboi

@professional money eater

in reply to Life.is.beautiful

GrapheneOS

in reply to Life.is.beautiful • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful @antsyboi Are you aware that GrapheneOS has millions dollars in funding used to employ a team of full time developers and others? It's not an exaggeration to claim that we would be doing far better if we hadn't been targeted with an immense amount of widespread fabrications, spin and harassment which resulted in multiple project members needing to quite or reduce their involvement. There are very tangible and substantial damages. We don't want to spread their attacks for them.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful @antsyboi We didn't link any of the main content from them attacking GrapheneOS and our team because it's bullying/harassment targeting one of our team members. We've shared it with people privately but we don't know if people are capable of basic critical thinking and seeing through a narcissistic influencer misleading people and directing their audience to harass someone. Most people we've shared it with saw through it, but a couple fell for it and we don't like doing it.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful @antsyboi It would be doing their work for them to spread their content attacking us. We would prefer only sharing the details with people after we know a bit about them and get the impression they're not going to fall for it.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful I think still providing a detailed account and rebuttal to everything would still be much better than approaching it because without that all the average person can find is just things like Techlore's video going over things from their perspective, and you consider them to be part of the targetted harassment campaign too. But the thing is that without providing a rebuttal other than mentioning harassment campaigns every now and then on mastodon, it means that ...

@Life.is.beautiful

in reply to professional money eater

GrapheneOS

in reply to professional money eater • 1 anno fa • •

@antsyboi @Life_is_Beautiful We've been working on an in-depth article debunking Techlore's highly dishonest harassment video consisting of ridiculous fabrications and spin. That is not what we were referring to in the thread above, but rather the face of the FUTO organization supporting him and making their own just as ridiculous harassment video based on his one after publicly and privately supporting him. We were talking about FUTO, not Techlore. People take their baseless lies at face value.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@antsyboi @Life_is_Beautiful People expect us to provide detailed proof to counter baseless fabrications and spin. It means the bar is incredibly high for an article published on our site and requires doing a bunch of digging through old archives to get as much as possible. We've been putting resources into making this content for a long time but don't have something we're ready to publish on our site yet. It has spun off into many other people joining in the harassment with their own lies.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful I understand that you were not referring to Techlore in the posts above but what I meant by bringing them up is that all of the info that people commonly cite against you comes from Techlore and other things referencing Techlore.

@Life.is.beautiful

in reply to professional money eater

GrapheneOS

in reply to professional money eater • 1 anno fa • •

@antsyboi @Life_is_Beautiful Most reasonable people can watch that content and figure out that what's he's showing doesn't match the lies he's telling. The blatant lies about Copperhead and pretending as if after the people at Copperhead moved to other places like Calyx, F-Droid, etc. they didn't simply take the conflict with them but rather portraying it as a separate thing is clearly dishonest. The founder of CalyxOS was deeply involved in Copperhead's failed takeover attempt on GrapheneOS.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@antsyboi @Life_is_Beautiful Basic critical thinking is enough to see both of those videos are highly dishonest and aimed at directing harassment towards an individual to benefit themselves. It's very clear they were published to cause harm to us and we didn't do anything like that to them. Our community didn't either. It is their community engaging in harassment, which can be seen on X right now with 3 people engaging in blatant bullying/harassment based on Rossman's own bullying/harassment.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@antsyboi @Life_is_Beautiful If you want to see the damages they have caused to us in action, go to X and browse through the thread. Look at the profiles of the 3 people doing it and you can see them doing it on their timelines too. That's something which is ongoing on a daily basis. It is very clear cut that those videos are highly dishonest and aimed at creating harassment to almost anyone. The issue is we can't trust that random people who reply are rational and have critical thinking.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to professional money eater

professional money eater

in reply to professional money eater • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful the average person can only see the things from the harassment campaign, therefore only hurting you guys more. I am an avid grapheneOS supporter and recommended grapheneOS to people I know all the time but if they were to look into GrapheneOS on YouTube or just by looking it up, all they'll find is things that you say are part of a targetted harassment campaign. So even if the average person is a good critical thinker and can properly ingest all of the info, ...

@Life.is.beautiful

in reply to professional money eater

professional money eater

in reply to professional money eater • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful can only ever be shown the harassment angle. Even if some people were to read your solid evidence and still not believe you, that will still only be the minority of people. As if you publicize the info that you says proves their campaigns false, then people will have another option other than just going with what Techlore and other people are saying.

-- Written from my GrapheneOS phone

@Life.is.beautiful

in reply to professional money eater

GrapheneOS

in reply to professional money eater • 1 anno fa • •

@antsyboi @Life_is_Beautiful The burden of proof is on the people publishing baseless allegations and spin to show actual proof for it instead of blatantly lying about what's show in screenshots or other things to pretend they have proven something they absolutely have not. Blatantly lying about the context and what's written is not proof, and the burden of proof is in fact on the people engaging in that harassment to provide actual evidence for their false claims not just lying more as they do.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

Life.is.beautiful

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Okay,
I understand that devs are expensive.
I donated myself already in the past.

If you only feel comfortable with sharing the proofs with people you already know why then bringing this out in the public?
Couldn't this be resolved privately?

In the end it's your thing.
Just be aware what damage communication cab actually do, as you also gave an example from in your opinion wrong communication from FUTO.

@antsyboi

@professional money eater

in reply to Life.is.beautiful

GrapheneOS

in reply to Life.is.beautiful • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful @antsyboi They made it very public by engaging in a public war against the GrapheneOS project clearly aimed at causing a massive amount of harm towards it and potentially destroying it. We're of course going to respond to that even if it takes us a long time to write the in-depth articles about it. We're gradually working on it and we're not going to be silent about their ongoing behavior towards us which is very much not private due to their decision to make it public.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@Life_is_Beautiful @antsyboi What we said above is that we don't want to publicly link their harassment content consisting on fabrications and spin targeting one of our team members. We are happy to share it in private with people who seem reasonable about a basic discussion.

We didn't make this public, they did. They leaked private emails and a private conversation along with leaking sensitive private information about the developer they're targeting. You have that very backwards.

@Life.is.beautiful @professional money eater

in reply to GrapheneOS

AdventureTense

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Referring to Louis Rossman maybe?

in reply to GrapheneOS

Vash

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

so Futo is not to be confused with a regular open source project. From their very own website:

> Is FUTO a non-profit organization?
>
> No. FUTO is legally structured as a regular for profit corporation.

in reply to Vash

GrapheneOS

in reply to Vash • 1 anno fa • •

@Vash Whether or not the organization is a non-profit is unrelated to whether the licenses are open source licenses. Many companies publish open source software, and some of those are even entirely based around open source. We chose the non-profit organization route but we could have made another company to support the project instead. We felt it was too hard to deal with the inherent conflicts of interest and that we needed a non-profit but profit is not exclusive with open source at all.

@Vash

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@Vash We don't have much of an issue with FUTO's corporate structure. We have an issue with it being presented as if it's a benevolent non-profit that's helping open source based on our direct experience with them combined with their own projects not actually being open source. We think it's a valid concern that they may influence more projects to switch to non-open-source licensing we can't use. Their behavior towards us has also been disgusting and genuinely has caused immense harm to us.

@Vash

in reply to GrapheneOS

Vash

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Oh yes, this is exactly what I wanted to stress: just from the name the impression is that it might be an open source project, maybe even without any corporate or non profit organization in the background. I wondered why they would make donations and so I went to their website.

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

For people asking about alternatives, Transcribro from the Accrescent app store available in our app store is an open source speech-to-text keyboard. Developer of Transcribro is a contributor to GrapheneOS and also wrote the very useful App Verifier for key fingerprint checks.

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

FlorisBoard, HeliBoard and other traditional open source keyboard apps exist too. There are a lot of projects. In the future, we plan to fork one of the more permissively licensed ones (where GPLv2 qualifies as permissive enough but GPLv3 does not) to replace AOSP Keyboard.

in reply to GrapheneOS

Elric

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

I'm very happy with SimpleKeyboard. And I don't understand people who need all kinds of features in their keyboard. It's a keyboard. It's for typing.

in reply to GrapheneOS

roshless

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Thanks for HeliBoard recommendation. It fits my usecase (even has built in dictionary for my language). Now I can remove futo keyboard.

in reply to GrapheneOS

Baffling7384

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Is there a chance that in the future Google will open source most of the code in Gboard into AOSP keyboard? Are you seeing that ever happening?

in reply to Baffling7384

GrapheneOS

in reply to Baffling7384 • 1 anno fa • •

@Baffling7384 They might release the source code as a new project but we see no signs of that happening any time soon. AOSP Keyboard is dead and it wouldn't make much sense for them to revive it rather than replacing it. It stopped getting the Google Keyboard updates around 2014-2015.

@Baffling7384

in reply to GrapheneOS

☕ 🏳️‍🌈 schlackenfuchs

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

I tried #Transcribro, but it seems it understands only English... So: not really a speech-to-text (#STT) #keyboard for everyone

#keyboard #stt #transcribro

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 anno fa)

in reply to GrapheneOS

@leX 🤘🏻

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Unfortunately this app seems to currently only support english as language?
But in their Github issues I found Sayboard as an alternative.
And a good alternative it is!
It seems to work better and faster than Futo's voice input, which will now be abandoned.
How could I not see this in F-Droid till now? 🤪

in reply to GrapheneOS

Kumar Ghosh

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Ah whoops, I believe they recently invested in #immich

#immich

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@ttamttam Look into FUTO a bit more and you'll find their ties to Curtis Yarvin, etc. which played a role in our falling out with them early on.

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@khalid_salad Our main issue with them is their incredibly horrible behavior towards us which has caused immense harm to the GrapheneOS project which will take decades to repair for the people targeted by them.

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@ticklemyIP The license is shown above. Their 40k donation to GrapheneOS is shown on their site, and the face of FUTO is the one who made our disagreements public by engaging in blatant harassment based on fabrications and spin towards one of our project members. They published the proof of their abuse towards us by very publicly engaging in it in a very blatant way. We don't want to publicly link to that content but we'd be willing to send it in a reply that's a DM if you seem reasonable.

in reply to GrapheneOS

DKMellow

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

I thought the hatchet got buried with this subject long ago, I give you credit for bringing valid criticism in the initial post regarding FUTO and their licenses but opening this older subject was totally unnecessary.

Questa voce è stata modificata (1 anno fa)

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@xz Louis Rossmann is the face of FUTO and his interactions with us were as our main contact at FUTO and a representative of the company. The video posted by Rossmann attacking GrapheneOS consisting of fabrications and spin with the clear aim of increasing harassment he supports. Our falling out with them, including Rossmann, started with us raising the issue of FUTO's ties to fascists including Curtis Yarvin which made us reluctant to receive money. It was downhill from there.

@xz

in reply to DKMellow

GrapheneOS

in reply to DKMellow • 1 anno fa • •

@DKMellow There's nothing old about this subject. Rossmann has continued actively directing harassment towards our team with fabrications and spin. He's actively engaging in bullying and harassment. He has continued posting many public statements about it including within the past month. In what sense is any of this in the past? Rossmann wants to harm GrapheneOS and our team. Rossmann supports harassment, swatting, etc. He's a member of Kiwi Farms and made content catering to that crowd.

@DKMellow

in reply to GrapheneOS

roshless

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

ehh, their keyboard is the only one somewhat usable :/ ask unmaintained, new alternatives dont have dictionaries 🙁 i wish there was something good open source

in reply to roshless

GrapheneOS

in reply to roshless • 1 anno fa • •

@roshless FlorisBoard is a real open source project and what we plan to fork for GrapheneOS in the future when it's more mature.

@roshless

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@DKMellow He has a verified account there and there's no point in pretending Rossmann didn't know exactly what he was doing with that highly dishonest and malicious content. FUTO is one of the main adversaries of GrapheneOS causing harm to it and our team. It's not states or big corporations coming after us but Rossmann and the previous harassment he was supporting from Techlore. If Rossmann takes down his harassment content and posts a retraction for the lies, we'll consider it resolved.

@DKMellow

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@DKMellow You can see for yourself in the comments on his YouTube video, on Kiwi Farms where he has an active verified account (larossmann), in his Matrix community and elsewhere that Rossmann has continued his attempts at harming the GrapheneOS project and directing harassment towards one of our developers. He was our main contact at FUTO and his gradual descent towards is was fueled by our issues with how FUTO was doing things including our concern about their ties to Curtis Yarvin and others.

@DKMellow

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@DKMellow You expect us to simply sit there and take a huge amount of abuse including daily harassment and bullying from his community while he continues directing it towards us with his highly dishonest content. Nope, we're only going to become more vocal and we'll likely be filing a lawsuit funded in part with the $40k they donated to us. What do you expect the result to of this kind of libel, bullying and harassment which has continued unabated rather than stopping? It is not in the past.

@DKMellow

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@DKMellow We deal with the consequences of his ongoing attacks on us on a daily basis. His extremely dishonest content directing harassment towards us is still there, still serving the intended purpose he had for it. He's still actively banning people who defend us and talk about how he kept using GrapheneOS. He's still actively making jabs towards our team including baseless lies about their mental state. Are you implying you support this and think it's fine?

@DKMellow

Unknown parent

Carlos Solís

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

I'm still waiting for Floris to reimplement swipe typing and autocompletion suggestions in order to finally move... but with what seems to be a single developer, it's complicated.

Unknown parent

Carlos Solís

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

The fact that the swipe library is a binary, closed-source blob, and there are no plans to implement an open-source replacement to it, is a deal-breaker to me in regards to Heliboard. I'd rather wait for Florisboard to reimplement it in an open-source fashion first.

Unknown parent

@leX 🤘🏻

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@marta
Try HeliBoard! With many handy features, clipboard support, dictionaries, additional swiping library (OK, installation of that one isn't straight forward) and many customisation possibilities it's a top notch FOSS keyboard.
@fossdd

@achill@{39c3,fosdem} @daughter of lilith

Unknown parent

achill@{39c3,fosdem}

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@marta honestly any soft keyboard is pretty handy

@daughter of lilith

in reply to achill@{39c3,fosdem}

daughter of lilith

in reply to achill@{39c3,fosdem} • 1 anno fa • •

not for me unfortunately, it lacks a bunch of features I want and has a weird layout

in reply to GrapheneOS

Jordan

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

I generally like Louis, but I’ve always disagreed with him about Daniel. Louis is utterly ignorant about how engineers brains work and neither has he worked a day in his life with those types of engineers. He simply lets his feelings get in the way of brute logic.

in reply to Jordan

GrapheneOS

in reply to Jordan • 1 anno fa • •

@jordan_kendrick He repeatedly engaged in bullying, and when confronted about it after severe swatting attacks caused by harassment he was supporting tried to massively harm the GrapheneOS project and the person he was already targeting with an incredibly dishonest video. He did that entirely because he was mad about us not being grateful enough for him talking about the OS. He has now spent a year and half continuing to push it and repeatedly doubling down on it in his public comments.

@Jordan

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@jordan_kendrick We'll probably end up having to file a lawsuit against them and we can start with the money they donated. We set it aside and haven't spent a penny from it. He could simply stop trying to harm GrapheneOS and our team by taking down his harassment content but it's highly unlikely it would happen without a court order, forcing us to take that approach if it's never going to happen otherwise. We can raise more than enough money to go after them, but it's a waste of precious time.

@Jordan

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@xz

> Which statements by Louis Rossman in the video are fabrications?

Nearly all of it, starting with the video title falsely claiming he stopped using GrapheneOS despite continuing to use it. He lied about feeling it was unsafe or that he'd be targeted, simply to harm the project. The rest too.

> How is FUTO connected to fascists including Curtis Yarvin?

By being friends and directing working with them to amplify their views including posting content with them on YouTube and elsewhere...

@xz

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@bthylafh Too restrictive and companies won't build on GrapheneOS if GPLv3 code is included. It would reduce the positive impact on our work and our ability to collaborate with companies building on it. GPLv2 is fine, but GPLv2 or later communicates a risk of the project moving to GPLv3 later, unlike a GPLv2-only project like the Linux kernel. If a project uses any GPLv3 code not available under another license, it can't be included in GrapheneOS.

@DefaultKevin

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@UnionMammalChewy It does NOT support swipe typing without an insecure old version of a Google Keyboard library. It's barely different from AOSP Keyboard and has some misguided changes we wouldn't want. It only supports it in the same sense that AOSP Keyboard does. LineageOS also has major issues including security problems with many of the changes they make across AOSP. We aren't going to use that as the basis for anything, we'll have to fork something like FlorisBoard after it's more mature.

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@UnionMammalChewy It's not a modern keyboard with the features we want, just AOSP Keyboard with more changes and many of them are ones we wouldn't want. We don't want to develop a modern keyboard app entirely on our own and turning AOSP Keyboard into one with proper emoji support, one handed mode and other modern features is unrealistic for us to do on our own. In general, we don't use code from LineageOS because it doesn't meet our standards and is consistently incorrect and often insecure.

in reply to GrapheneOS

eatham

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

would heliboard meet the standards? It is a pretty good asop keyboard fork, not sure what you guys want tho

in reply to GrapheneOS

Chris

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

is Apache-2.0 licence considered a viable option? Because that is what HeliBoard uses.
@bthylafh another vote for HeliBoard, even without including the gesture typing library (as long as we can add it ourselves just as easily as in HeliBoard) ✌️😎

@DefaultKevin

in reply to eatham

GrapheneOS

in reply to eatham • 1 anno fa • •

@eatham No, it has an overly restrictive license and can't be included in GrapheneOS (GPLv3).

@eatham

in reply to Chris

GrapheneOS

in reply to Chris • 1 anno fa • •

@RyuKurisu @bthylafh It's GPLv3, not Apache 2. It was forked from AOSP Keyboard which is Apache 2. We don't include GPLv3 code in GrapheneOS. If they had kept the same license, it would be fine.

@Chris @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@RyuKurisu @bthylafh FlorisBoard is what we would fork rather than HeliBoard, unless we decided to massively overhaul AOSP Keyboard ourselves.

@Chris @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

Hugo 雨果

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@bthylafh What kind of company would have issues either GPLv3? What kind of derived work do you expect to see?

@DefaultKevin

in reply to Hugo 雨果

GrapheneOS

in reply to Hugo 雨果 • 1 anno fa • •

@whynothugo @bthylafh Any company wanting to make a product with a locked bootloader, which isn't necessarily a phone or tablet. Google avoids including any GPLv3 code in AOSP and we want to preserve that in GrapheneOS to make it usable for any company wanting to use AOSP. GPLv2 is entirely fine, but GPLv2 or later is concerning if we aren't able or willing to take over maintenance if it shifts. Permissive allows us to copy code to any other apps, etc. GPLv2 doesn't but it's fine.

@Hugo 雨果 @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@whynothugo @bthylafh GPLv2/GPLv3 does not somehow force contributing back. It's a myth and doesn't actually work out. It only requires them to provide the code to their users. The code is in all likelihood not the way it would need to be for inclusion in GrapheneOS. It won't meet our standards, won't be done the way we wanted it, etc. It's unlikely there would be anything for us to use and in many cases it wouldn't be published publicly so users would need to request it and send it to us.

@Hugo 雨果 @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@whynothugo @bthylafh GPLv2 is incompatible with Apache 2 and GPLv3. It needs an exception to be compatible with those. Projects which moved to GPLv3 or later used GPLv2 or later previously so they were able to move despite GPLv3 being treated as non-free by GPLv2.

It's not legal to use Linux kernel code as a reference in glibc since it's GPLv2-only. Do you really think no one violates that? GPL incompatibilities are a real problem and restrict usage of the code as a side effect of that.

@Hugo 雨果 @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@whynothugo @bthylafh The worst bad actors will violate any license including non-commercial. Why would a company tied to organized crime that's selling phone to criminals intentionally care about licensing? That's an issue we've seen over the years. They won't care whether it's GPLv3, non-commercial or permissive. They'll use it and keep it closed source with 0 attribution regardless unless they want to falsely pretend it's actual GrapheneOS for marketing. What's the point in restrictions then?

@Hugo 雨果 @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@whynothugo @bthylafh In practice, the main issue we have is GPLv3 projects taking our code without us able to use their code since we don't want those restrictions. Therefore, we are willing to use GPLv2-only as a protection against them because GPLv2-only forbids taking it and using it in a GPL project. We can simply take GPLv2, add an Apache 2 patent clause additional permission (a reduction in restrictions, something GPL fully supports while still being standard GPL).

@Hugo 雨果 @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

GrapheneOS

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@whynothugo @bthylafh If they wanted to use our code, they'd need to relicense from GPLv3 to GPLv2 or later and the overall work would be GPLv2-only from including GPLv2-only code.

For Vanadium, we require external contributions are made under a permissive license. We're using GPLv2-only as a temporary measure. Once specific GPLv3 projects leeching off us are gone or less relevant than now, we have no issue moving it back to MIT licensing.

Some of them plagiarize our code instead.

@Hugo 雨果 @DefaultKevin

in reply to GrapheneOS

privatize_universe

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

It's probably case by case. Immich is Agpl-3.0 which is FOSS license.
But also Immich had this license before joining ways with FUTO…

in reply to privatize_universe

GrapheneOS

in reply to privatize_universe • 1 anno fa • •

@2c4388224fdcd50f24e53cab9baa4ab605f087e82c4587035072690f333310a9 It's not possible to change from a pre-existing copyleft license without permission from every contributor or somehow removing all their code and all code based on it which is not practical since who knows what got based on it elsewhere. AGPL also prevents them introducing code under their own heavily restricted non-commercial usage license. They could theoretically pay the contributors and relicense the code though.

@privatize_universe

in reply to GrapheneOS

privatize_universe

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

I agree, but that is reason why i wrote about it.
Under FUTO are some good FOSS apps and some which are not FOSS.

in reply to privatize_universe

GrapheneOS

in reply to privatize_universe • 1 anno fa • •

@2c4388224fdcd50f24e53cab9baa4ab605f087e82c4587035072690f333310a9 That one wasn't written by them and it's not yet clear what they're going to do with it. If they could change the license, they probably would.

@privatize_universe

in reply to GrapheneOS

privatize_universe

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

Yes, but still it's proof that we can't throw away any app with “FUTO” logo on it. We need make decision case by case

in reply to privatize_universe

GrapheneOS

in reply to privatize_universe • 1 anno fa • •

@2c4388224fdcd50f24e53cab9baa4ab605f087e82c4587035072690f333310a9 We'll certainly throw them all away based on them demonstrating themselves to be highly untrustworthy. None will ever be recommended and will be regarded as barriers to be overcome with better alternatives.

@privatize_universe

in reply to GrapheneOS

fxnn

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

@xz

Looked into FUTO and Curtis Yarvin. This is the first time I've seen anything as concrete to back up your claims. While I do think that, at least from an outsiders perspective, your style of communication on this topic has room for improvement, this has definitely improved my confidence that you're in the right.

@xz

in reply to GrapheneOS

eatham

in reply to GrapheneOS • 1 anno fa • •

ah ok

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@SupportGrapheneOS_667 Changes very little. They've heavily marketed them as open source and tied themselves to open source. That's out there and what people think it is now.

@Support GrapheneOS 667

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@techgeeklife It's going to be added. We want to switch to using a fork of it instead of a fork of AOSP Keyboard once it has more of what we need.

Unknown parent

GrapheneOS

Unknown parent • 1 anno fa • •

@SupportGrapheneOS_667 Open source and free software are the same thing. The difference is in the beliefs of the person saying it rather than any actual difference between them. Free software is a term used as part of an ideological movement. Richard Stallman has a lot of strong beliefs about how language should be used and his own way of using terms. In most cases, he had nearly zero success convincing anyone else to use his own way of using language. This is one of the few exceptions.

@Support GrapheneOS 667

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