There is a really crazy paper where they did the "mirror dot" test for self recognition on ants. BUT. It's in the "Journal of Science" which isn't "Science" ... and it's odd to have an insect paper not in an insect journal.
And this is their webpage:
Listen I just want this paper to be real, but it's kind of out there and the journal IDK.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Here is the paper. It was widely discussed ... on reddit for a long time I didn't think it was real.
Ants are painted with dots that match their exoskeletons, some are painted with blue dots. The ants are observed interacting with a mirror.
I've seen this experiment mentioned as a reason why calling the mirror dot test a "test for self awareness" is flawed: a lot of people really don't like this result.
Still, the journal gives me pause. What do you think?
journalofscience.net/showpdf/M…=
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Sarah E Bourne
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •JustAFrog
in reply to Sarah E Bourne • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to JustAFrog • • •Are Humans Self-Aware?
Ants have often tested humans for self awareness. They placed objects in our homes and were shocked we didn't cover them in sand.
"Although humans build interesting nests & show signs of cooperation, can they really have rich inner lives like ants? Unlikely."
They laid pheromone trails & we ignored them.
"Even a newly eclosed callow or a termite could have followed these trails! Human intelligence is perhaps similar to that of a lichen... or perhaps an aphid at best."
reshared this
rag. Gustavino Bevilacqua, SparkIT, Murray GM - Paperposts, Stefan Bohacek e myrmepropagandist reshared this.
molly in missouri
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to molly in missouri • • •@whatzaname @justafrog @sbourne
Meanwhile the aphids have no opinions on any of this, because they really are serene creatures to a fault with no thoughts at all.
If you have ever seen an aphid being eaten by a ladybird... you will understand. The aphid is not concerned or troubled by her demise, her little black eyes simply drink up the lovey green of her world right until the end.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Mure, die
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@whatzaname @justafrog @sbourne
Oh to be an aphid in a ladybirds warm embrace
Michael Gemar
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Michael Gemar • • •@michaelgemar @whatzaname @justafrog @sbourne
I've seen ants struggling to get them away from a hungry ladybird... and it's hard not to read the body language and increasing roughness of the ants with their charges as exasperation.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
molly in missouri
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Do you think these aphids are being tended or what? 🤔
@michaelgemar @justafrog @sbourne
myrmepropagandist
in reply to molly in missouri • • •@whatzaname @michaelgemar @justafrog @sbourne
That's not an "aphid ranch" that's a factory farm. LOL. Jeez. Ants overdo everything.
Josh
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I love that description. Truly the most zen creatures! Apparently there are some types of aphid that have defensive morphs...? 🤯
news.cornell.edu/stories/2022/…
First record of a gall-forming aphid fighting off predator | Cornell Chronicle
Cornell Chroniclereshared this
myrmepropagandist e rag. Gustavino Bevilacqua reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Josh • • •@krnlg
There is something so ominous about this photo from that article. It's like seeing a wolf being mauled by baby bunny rabbits.
Clearly aphids are like still waters. Simple and smooth on the surface... but with unknown depths of depravity.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
VulcanTourist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@whatzaname @justafrog @sbourne
If I were an aphid, I'd be continually TERRIFIED: of being eaten alive by lacewing or ladybug larvae or enslaved by sugar-addict ants! That's not to mention humans and all their evil genocidal chemical warfare!
myrmepropagandist
in reply to VulcanTourist • • •@VulcanTourist @whatzaname @justafrog @sbourne
Most aphids seem blissful to be the charges of ants... for better or worse.
VulcanTourist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@whatzaname @justafrog @sbourne
Better for the ants, to be sure. Perhaps not worse for the aphids, either, since at least they guard their cattle from actual predation by those nasty larvae?
Ω 🌍 Gus Posey
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Ω 🌍 Gus Posey • • •I have mixed feelings about them.
The are incredible. Remarkable in their own ways and very distinct from ants because they became eusocial on their own, in their own way.
And they might do more remarkable things than ants ever do with... HVAC.
But also... they are ant food.
Crone Cold Kate Sherrod
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Mort(e) by Robert Repino
app.thestorygraph.commyrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Crone Cold Kate Sherrod • • •@KateOfMind @justafrog @sbourne
I loved this series!
Though I wish the ants played a bigger role.
Crone Cold Kate Sherrod
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •mathew
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to mathew • • •@mathew @justafrog @sbourne
LOL
I'm basically Phase V incarnate.
(It's my favorite movie.)
mathew
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Asakiyume
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Medea Vanamonde🏳️⚧️ ♀
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •llewelly
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to llewelly • • •@llewelly
I think we need to ask what would ants mean by "a rich inner life" or "awareness" at all?
Is it having a language-based conversation with yourself in your mind as we tend to think of it being the language monkeys?
Or is it a feeling of being in synch or out of synch with the colony pheromone signature of the day? Is it tap tapping your sister and anticipating and getting the correct tap tap back?
As an aphid is it "pulsing" together and knowing it is time to bite the moth larvae?
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Wharrrrrrgarbl
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@llewelly If anything is going to demonstrate a commitment to ant values and worldview, I can't think of a better audition than this:
researchgate.net/publication/3…
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
tqwhite
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@llewelly
I asked GPT to entertain me based on your post. It did a great job.
Interesting details about the comparison between us and "experience based creatures" at this link.
chatgpt.com/share/6702a158-0f0…
ChatGPT
chatgpt.comtqwhite
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@llewelly An example is
"While our "language monkey" mind interprets and categorizes, it also creates separation—we experience an event and then narrate it, effectively splitting experience from analysis. In contrast, other animals may live more in the immediacy of their experiences, which could be described as "direct experience awareness." Their awareness is less compartmentalized, not as parsed into discrete units of thought, feeling, and action as it is with humans."
tqwhite
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Barry Goldman
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •railmeat
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to JustAFrog • • •@justafrog @sbourne
Everyone knows, when you see a thing and it is not a sister or part of The Nest it is best to cover it in rocks to make things Safer and more lovely for you and your sisters. Everyone knows this. Except for humans, apparently. Maybe in the future they will evolve.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Sarah E Bourne • • •@sbourne
Covering new things you don't understand with sand is VERY sensible. Something we could learn from the ants IMO.
nev
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •yeah, that's one of the major problems with the mirror test—what if the animal isn't primarily visual??
Another caveat is that not all *humans* pass the mirror test! It's surprisingly culturally loaded.
Jon Quass
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I got around to showing a mirror to my ants. They did NOT react to it any differently than they reacted to a smooth piece of plastic with no reflections.
They touched it and investigated both sides, but I saw nothing to indicate they saw the reflective side differently than the non-reflective side.
I would love it if someone who keeps ants with better eyesight could try this with a Gigantiops destructor colony or an bull ant colony. I didn't put dots on the ants. Just showed them a mirror.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Albert Cardona
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Medea Vanamonde🏳️⚧️ ♀
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •OK this has gone on long enough!
I'm breaking out the little ant-sized mirrors and the "bee safe paint!"
I have black and yellow and will try this on some of my black carpenter ants.
reshared this
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Landa
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •may I suggest a companion experiment?
You wrote that you’re not sure if ants would react to a mirror at all, given they generally don’t rely on sight that much.
Have you ever seen what happens when ants „meet“ through a piece of glass?
Two parallel glass tunnels or two areas completely separated by a sheet of glass so that they can‘t touch or smell each other but would be able to see?
#cognizANT #citizenScience
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Landa • • •@Landa
My ants travel in clear plastic tubes. Sometimes I've seen what happens when an ant who is from another colony is on the outside of the tube. They will track her visually.
However, ants are so sensitive to pheremones I think this experiment would be tricky to set up. Not impossible but consider how this ant found a pinhole in one of these tubes.
futurebird.tumblr.com/post/757…
futurebird's ants
futurebird (Tumblr)myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@Landa
She could sense the this colony from *across the room* Honed in on a tiny hole in the tubing (that’s what she’s worrying at, it’s a hole I use to add water. )
I think she wanted to fight them all.
A cool crab wearing shades
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to A cool crab wearing shades • • •@neckspike @Landa She was so belligerent!
This spring and summer I want to focus more of my observations on how wild colonies interact with each other. They can’t possibly be this belligerent all of the time.
I think the artificial environment may make it harder for colonies to find a truce— which they often do in the wild.
🐜❤️🐜
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@neckspike @Landa
In the antkeeping hobby many people have wanted to keep multiple colonies of ants in the same enclosure to see how they interact. The trouble is you need a *very* large enclosure for this to end in any way other than one colony wipin the other out.
Ants are very adept at assessing if they can completely eliminate another colony: in a controlled environment, usually one colony will have an advantage and that is the colony that will survive.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •varx/social
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Loy Hena
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Ricós has moved
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Ricós has moved • • •@enriquericos
I'm going to try it with my girls and see what happens. I have never given them a mirror because I didn't think their vision was acute enough to make anything of it.
They react to touch, and to pheromones much more than what they see.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Ricós has moved
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Ricós has moved • • •@enriquericos
The perils of amateur myrmecology! I suspect that entomologists have already discussed, laughed at, or made some other conclusion on what this is. But, I will be here in the Bronx trying to solve the replication crisis by myself with an iPhone in macro mode and a box of ants.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Bob Davidson
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@enriquericos
New York Ants!
Ricós has moved
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Ricós has moved
in reply to Ricós has moved • • •rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822
No Moods, Ads or Cutesy Fucking Icons » Insect Awakenings.
www.rifters.commyrmepropagandist
Unknown parent • • •@enriquericos @NatureMC
There's an audiobook version! Nice. My bus ride entertainment is sorted for the next week!
Ricós has moved
Unknown parent • • •The pile of books I want/must read keeps growing, thank you, but 😭
@futurebird
myrmepropagandist
Unknown parent • • •@NatureMC
It's been around for too long to be LLM stuff.
I really don't know what the heck is going on with this paper.
My Florida Native Garden
Unknown parent • • •I already placed a hold on my audiobook from the library (using Libby) and I have to wait about two weeks, but this gives me time to finish my current book. Thank you for this recommendation!
I am of the opinion that we have declared human intelligence as a positive trait erroneously and that animal intelligence is far superior. The proof? How we destroyed our planet and everything on it.
Petra van Cronenburg
in reply to My Florida Native Garden • • •@nathaliaassaad You're welcome. Well, but de Waal also claims that humans as part of the animal kingdom have a chance for hope: they can be social and with empathy, too. Perhaps we should learn from social insects and animals like wolves? Evolution is about cooperation ... we still can act against destruction even if the times at the moment seem bad.
@futurebird @enriquericos
myrmepropagandist
Unknown parent • • •@justafrog @michaelgemar @whatzaname @sbourne
"They're gonna eat you! Come on!"
"That's OK."
"No it's NOT OK you'll be dead .. . and then where will I get my SUGAR. OMG."
"It's OK. I like green."
"AHHHHHH"
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
Unknown parent • • •@nilz @mathew @justafrog @sbourne
We do not talk about Antz.
Sébastien
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
Unknown parent • • •@Wyatt_H_Knott
But they respond by cleaning themselves not attacking.
Ambulocetus
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •