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Some are asking: why does privacy-focused Organic Maps use GitHub? The largest open-source contributor network, familiar PR & issue workflow, Actions CI, broad integrations, zero infra to maintain, and easy onboarding/discoverability. This lets us focus on improving the app instead of running and maintaining servers. Development time is the most precious resource nowadays, and most of our users don't care where the code is hosted, but care about the app functionality and usability…
Do you care?

reshared this

in reply to tobru πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­ πŸ§‘β€πŸš’

@tobru @Codeberg there should be a serious reason to break the existing convenience and workflows for active contributors and add the burden of migration/new workflows. Why do you think the pros of migration outweigh the cons? Or is it just a wish that doesn't take into account the reality?
in reply to Organic Maps

@tobru @Codeberg I think you're making the right call, OrganicMaps. Lots of calls for "action" by (in most cases) people who haven't given any thought to all the things you mention.
in reply to Organic Maps

@Codeberg Free software should be developed with free software, GitHub isn't! Migration is a bit of an effort, but even GitHub Actions can be easily migrated. I'm using all the platforms every day, I don't see moving to Codeberg as a burden, but a choice of freedom.

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in reply to Organic Maps

@tobru That β€œburden of migration” you're rightly complaining about is the exact lock-in effect that the whole #GiveUpGithub discussion is centred around! Migrating issues and PRs isn't a hassle because @Codeberg is shit, but because GitHub try their very best to add as much friction as necessary to stop you from leaving.

Forgejo (the platform powering Codeberg) is actively working on federation, i.e. the diametric opposite to lock-in.

If you can't bother to use privacy-respecting open-source tools, why do you develop a privacy-respecting open-source app in the first place?

Jan Vlug reshared this.

in reply to n0toose

@tobru @Codeberg @CoMaps sorry, but like "Do you care?" and "doesn't take reality into account" is some very weird ragebaiting lol

life's short, do whatever

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to n0toose

@n0toose @tobru @Codeberg @CoMaps wait they already moved to a self hosted forgejo after getting their whole github locked out by microsoft alternativeto.net/news/2025/3/… why are they back on the hell site and pretending there is nothing wrong? this whole thing is bizarre

Oblomov reshared this.

in reply to wakest ⁂

@liaizon @tobru @Codeberg @CoMaps either way i don't think that we'd let them host their backend map generation that they closed-source again for some reason but the three folks are free to continue using forgejo for that.
in reply to Organic Maps

@tobru @Codeberg obviously migrating to a respectful service will not be painless, but doing it will absolutely be easy. Just ask the community for help, you'll see.
Always come back to the community.
in reply to Organic Maps

@tobru asking people 'do you care?' and then chewing them out when they tell you they care is a bit weird tbh...
in reply to Organic Maps

Thanks for developing Organic Maps!

I do care a lot about preventing vendor lock-in and a Free and Open Source software development environment (Git forge). In general, I'm willing to accept some inconvenience for having freedom.

I would applaud it if Organic Maps moved to @Codeberg

In this way the Free and Open Source Software development ecosystem would be strengthened.

#vendorlockin #opensource #FOSS #DigitalSovereignty #digitalautonomy

in reply to Jan Vlug

@janvlug @Codeberg what issues, risks, or lock-in-related things do you see now? Migration is possible at any moment; git guarantees it out of the box.
in reply to Organic Maps

@Codeberg

By using a proprietary platform, you are indirectly strengthening and endorsing it. There is a risk of using parts of GitHub that are not directly related to Git. For example the CI/CD-pipelines, issue tracking, milestone management, and package registries.

I did not look into the Organic Maps specifics here. But the whole Codeberg fundamental philosophy is very aligned to the one of Organic Maps, in contrast to the GitHub business model.

See:
codeberg.org/about

in reply to Jan Vlug

Speaking of GitHub’s business model.

Recently the GitHub CEO β€œstepped down” and Microsoft fully integrates the previously β€œindependent company” into their AI division to build β€œan AI platform for Microsoft and its customers.”

it-daily.net/en/shortnews-en/g…

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in reply to Organic Maps

@janvlug @Codeberg I also care and would love more FOSS projects to move off Github. In terms of lock in, the argument seems to be that you don't need to move yet because it would be easy to move, in a thread where you are arguing it would be too much of a hassle to move.

The lock in is in the momentum of moving users/communities where Github has an outsized advantage, making people feel trapped in the ecosystem regardless of their feelings of Microsoft/etc.

Though I am not a contributor on this project, and while I prefer to not use Github, it is probably more fair to be a decision for contributors who have more stake in it?

Jan Vlug reshared this.

in reply to Organic Maps

git guarantees that out of the box only for the code revision history. try migrating "PR & issue workflow, Actions CI, broad integrations" out of github to realize how locked-in you got yourself already.

CC: @janvlug@mastodon.social @Codeberg@social.anoxinon.de

Oblomov reshared this.

in reply to Alexandre Oliva

[...] most of our users don't care where the code is hosted, but care about the app functionality and usability…
Do you care?


Most users will probably use Google Maps and Waze because they provide the most convenience. I do care about #SoftwareFreedom.

in reply to daltux

This is a typical example of how "Open Source" fundamentally disregards software freedom. Unfortunately, "OSS" reduces a profound ethical imperative to a shallow model focused solely on practical convenience and technical superiority. Until more users learn to value their freedom over these superficial benefits, big tech will always have a billion reasons to sway their preferences. Big tech firms can tout their 'open source' credentials precisely because this model asks no ethical questions of themβ€”it's useful, and that's all that matters. We must demand real #FreeSoftware throughout the entire digital pipeline.
in reply to Organic Maps

@janvlug @Codeberg
There's some dissonance here. In another post you talk about having Github issues, and here you talk about git only.

I don't have as strong preferences for/against Github as many here, just observing that your PR with this thread has been really good - for other projects.

With this being Sunday, was the thread inspired by some party-like events? πŸ˜€

in reply to Organic Maps

Yes I care, get off GitHub you dweebs. Are you really coming down on the side of apathy?

You really want to support MechaHitler? GitHub partnering with xAI is really the last straw, although maybe we all should have bailed earlier, due to previous ethical failures like partnering with ICE.

If you're worried about running your own servers, work with Codeberg or any other existing forge.

in reply to Organic Maps

I don’t care no. As long as you maintain control, the rest is preferences.

Philosophically there are β€œbetter” options; but in practical terms if you follow those you’ll nerf potential contributors because; like it or not; GitHub is the most widely used with the largest audience / pool of people.

Practicality trumps philosophy up until that practicality restricts your project.

in reply to Organic Maps

Yes, I absolutely care! Actively arguing for using a corporate-owned proprietary web service with heavy vendor lock-in is kinda dumb, imho.

There are zero real reasons to use this Microsoft service for publicly hosting your Git repository and issue tracker and CI.

β€œLegacy projects” should actively migrate away from #GitHub and new projects should not be hosted at GitHub in first place.

Microsoft is actively preying on projects hosted on GitHub and it’s users for training their for-profit AI.

Here’s something to read and use as base for own research: Give Up GitHub!

in reply to Organic Maps

while I recognize that migration is an effort, as a developer I am less likely to look into contributing to a project if contributing means I have to navigate a platform that is hostile to me. While I can always `git clone` the project locally, I can't submit patches or participate in discussion without agreeing to MS/GitHub's terms and being subjected to the platform.

Jan Vlug reshared this.

in reply to Organic Maps

The truth is that I am not a technical expert, and I did not understand the difference between the options mentioned.
But in any case, I support any step or measure that supports my privacy and freedom, even if it means a decline in the quality of the service provided.

@organicmaps

in reply to Organic Maps

Yes, I care.

I feel it's us, the people who are open to alternatives and want to move away from, say, Google Maps πŸ™„, who are the ones who make Organic Maps big and help it grow. So, if we care, you might also care.

in reply to 🌼 Dagnabbit, Pascaline! 🌼

@pascaline Would you prefer better open-source maps built on the GitHub platform or worse open-source maps built on some other platform? Many users (outside of Fosstodon) have a very pragmatic answer to this question. And that's the reality at the moment.
in reply to Organic Maps

I don't think this is a fair question, and for some reason I get the feeling you only asked us the question to push your own answer and promote it here. If this is the case, it's not a very nice strategy.
in reply to Organic Maps

are you really thinking the app would be worse on other software forges? What does the forge have to do with software quality? This is insane! @pascaline
in reply to tobru πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­ πŸ§‘β€πŸš’

@tobru @pascaline there are reasons why popular FOSS projects like Mastodon, Python, Nix, LLVM, and many others are still on GitHub. For sure, after some time, the situation may change.
in reply to Organic Maps

First of all, thank you for a great piece of software!

Yes, I care! As many has already mentioned, I also think you should move over to Codeberg.

in reply to Organic Maps

I think maintainers should do what is best for maintainers. If maintenance becomes too hard, the project dies. I totally understand that migration is "a project" in itself. Morality and values are great, but people demanding change are hardly the ones who will have to figure out the logistics.
Thanks for a great app, we love Organic Maps no matter what πŸ’š
in reply to Hyzual

@Hyzual very true, it is not only about the maintenance, but about other aspects of open-source development too. We're open to using whatever is the best platform on the market to build the best maps. Because we don't want to spend time on some platform. We want to build the best maps instead.
in reply to Organic Maps

yes I do care. That’s why I made the jump. Don’t use GitHub! It’s Microsoft and it’s a platform which you shouldn’t use!
Take codeberg.org @Codeberg or something else?!
Why? I think you know it…
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

I get it but the truth is this is a conflict of interest and values of the project doesn't align with GitHub/Microsoft. These companies don't care about community. Use services, software, etc. that respect freedom.
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

In my opinion it would be better for you to stay on github. Because recently a new project emerged @CoMaps you might have lost some of contributors, therefore making it harder to maintain the stability of development proccess. Of course I would prefer you to self-host the repository, but it creates some issues:
- CoMaps emergence probably caused loss of many contributors - therefore making harder fixing the issues and adding new features
- self-hosting on Codeberg or somewhere else would probably also cause loss of some contributors, because they would have no motivation to make another account on Codeberg or somewhere else just to contribute to 1 repository (some of them would just prefer to keep all the eggs in one basket - most of devs have github account these days, and most of the foss projects are on github)
- self-hosting generates additional costs and takes time for maintaining its security, stability etc., so while having a decrease in contributors would not be a good move in my opinion
In conclusion I think it is better for you to currently stay on github (i have no much opinion about this, I just want this project to stay alive and grow, as it has proven to be amazing over many years already) to not generate additional costs and focus on gaining more users/contributors/sponsors. I think moving to Codeberg won't change much currently, yet staying on github might assure stability, but it is just my opinion.
in reply to Organic Maps

ideally you'd have your code elsewhere but it's not a deal-breaker by any means.
in reply to Organic Maps

I care.
It is only decision you have to make.

Everything else then is easy. Only cost some time.

A step to a more open web.

@Codeberg and @forgejo may help.

in reply to Organic Maps

yes, I care! And if you brought up the topic, you also care.
in reply to Organic Maps

essentially, there's unsolicited AI stuff forced on developers (thanks to Microsoft business goals): on an open service something like it can't happen if the users don't want it πŸ˜€
in reply to Felipe

@fbobraga that also means that Organic Maps code can be suggested in other projects using AI for similar tasks. Is it good or bad?
in reply to Organic Maps

good question (I don't know if they use AI for it, I think not.... Maybe it's "AI", quoted, that don't use neural nets...)
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (23 ore fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

yes, I have no maps app since I learned about organic maps being on git and it sucks but I can tolerate sucky stuff.
in reply to Organic Maps

another one who cares about using GitHub with their controversial agreements/statements. Especially when there are great alternatives. To be honest, I care in general, but since moving to CoMaps, I don't care much about what OM does.
in reply to Organic Maps

I feel like I should care, because GH is part of a machine that serves incompatible interests. In the long run, I think it's a good idea to move away from it - not just for moral reasons, but because it's slowly going to become deleterious to keep using it. Particularly for OSS.

I don't think there needs to be a rush, but it should likely be put on a roadmap somewhere. So in that sense, I "don't care" about urgency.

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to Kevin Boyd (he/him) πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦

@kboyd Of course, we're very pragmatic. If there are better options, more efficient for the project's development, we would gladly consider them. After trying some alternatives, GitHub is still the winner at the moment in our pros vs cons list.
in reply to Organic Maps

Yep. Just be prepared for that math to stop mathing, and quickly. Both from GH rotting and from the other offerings improving.
in reply to Organic Maps

I care!

Your pro arguments are the exact problems of a vendor-lockin.

The value of being on GitHub for reach and visibilty is a false promise.

I am pretty sure that serious and valuable contributors do not care about GitHub.

Reference: codeberg.org/comaps

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

Organic Maps was literally banned from GitHub this march: mastodon.social/@organicmaps/1…

Why are you back to GitHub after that? And of course a lot of FOSS users care very much about not using Microsoft products.

I feel like this post is just rage bait.


GitHub has gone - long live Forgejo (@forgejo).

Fully migrated out of Microsoft’s walled garden after they blocked us:

- 54k commits
- 9.5k issues
- 4.3k pull requests
- 100k comments

Everything moved. Nothing left behind.

git.omaps.dev/organicmaps/orga…


in reply to Antimundo

One of the owners of our GitHub org at that time made a big mistake by making a previously US-sanctioned contributor pastk also an owner of our GitHub org. That triggered the ban. GitHub followed the rules and the law that some people had explicitly broken. We are back on GitHub because we do not plan to break the law (or use the code without the authors' permission, like some other forks do).
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

Please just stop, really, whoever is in charge of Organic Maps social media it looks like you are rage baiting, and doesn't make you look like a serious trustable project.

Take it as constructive criticism.

in reply to Antimundo

@antimundo You've asked why we returned to GitHub, and got an answer with facts. If using Microsoft products helps develop privacy-focused, open-source Organic Maps and saves contributors' time, why give it up? We have a very pragmatic, non-religious approach. If development speeds up and becomes easier for contributors after changing the platform, we will gladly consider this option.
in reply to Organic Maps

@antimundo going back to GitHub after you so *proudly* announced that you've left GitHub for Forgejo (no matter the reasons) is just on a different level. The whole "pragmatic approach" you seem to have about leaving GitHub *again* really just looks like a front.

Actually, the question should be asked the other way around: why did you leave Forgejo for GitHub? And, no, "pragmatism" is not a valid answer here.

These posts are the last straw to finally make me leave for @CoMaps. It should be enough reason for anyone else that cares about free software even in the slightest at this point. Rage bait isn't getting you anywhere.

in reply to Organic Maps

@antimundo And that sanctioned individual is... still in your team? Yes, we care. If we want a map app that cares, we can go to CoMaps. This is why "open" matters.
in reply to Organic Maps

Yes I care that you're on #github , #microsoft materially supports the gazan #genocide , and its microsoft, their #software business interests are anti user anti freedom and anti privacy, #codeberg exists, nobody said #solidarity was easy but its a one time cost then I hear that using codeberg is basically the same as github

#FLOSS #OrganicMaps #Gaza #Palestine

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

I care. Doing open source privacy app but staying on GitHub is kinda weird and make you less trustable. And trust is the only thing that you should care about
in reply to Organic Maps

The initial question posted here already states its conclusion, so why is it being asked?

CoMaps forked the project for a reason, so if folks are concerned about open source transparency, I highly encourage them to migrate over to that project, which is already on Codeberg. πŸ˜€

#CoMaps #Codeberg

in reply to Organic Maps

i care. Very much so.
There are some good points in this blog post about why you should too
drewdevault.com/2022/03/29/fre…

Mainly: if you are to convince people to use your free software maps alternative over some proprietary ones, why not lead by example with code infrastructure?

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (1 giorno fa)
in reply to Thibaut

@bgtdsword we have almost 3k issues on GitHub. Focusing on the product by using the most optimal tools for that is in the priority. Promoting FOSS to millions of app users by providing a privacy- and user-friendly alternative to Google or Apple maps is more efficient, than spending our time on good, but still not as efficient tools.
in reply to Organic Maps

The convenience argument is pretty feeble in the free software movement, you must already know that...
in reply to Tagomago

@tagomago Many Organic Maps contributors work on the project in their free time, at the expense of time spent with family. Convenience in terms of saved time is important, yes.
in reply to Organic Maps

@tagomago I really would have thought that in this day-and-age FOSS contributors would at least have accounts on the open source git repos. Maybe I'm wrong though.
in reply to Organic Maps

@ChrisWere I mean, you can handle it the way you want, just don’t expect approval. That’s what happens when you become dependent on the kind of platforms you intend to fight with OM: you end up defending its use because, well it’s what everyone has and it’s convenient. Other projects made the effort to migrate, so I guess it’s doable. If you need help, maybe ask for help financing it.
in reply to Organic Maps

Maybe "Development time is the most precious resource nowadays".
But in my opinion "freedom" is much more precious than "resources".
So, if you ask me "Do you care"? I do answer: yes, of course I care!
in reply to Pare

@pare 100% agree. Resources are important if you're building a worldwide app that promotes privacy and FOSS. Freedom is important for everyone. No exceptions.
@Pare
in reply to Organic Maps

I care, but I also understand that sometimes compromises need to be made for the benefit of the project.

Self-Hosting a versioning and distribution platform can become very expensive, very quickly, especially when your project is popular.

Open Source projects have limited funds and I am grateful for what the developers do provide us.

in reply to Organic Maps

It's not true that the only alternative to GitHub is self hosting. There are #FreeSoftware options like Codeberg too.

If convenience is that important, why don't just use Google Maps? Or use any other maps which work well in that area? Why do OpenStreetMappers put time daily to build OSM?

I use OSM even if a region is not well mapped and add data myself too in those cases. Would I have done the same thing if I cared only about my convenience?

Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (13 ore fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

that claim is like "I don't care if my wife is a harbor whore, she cooks and cleans and we're happy together"
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (12 ore fa)
in reply to Organic Maps

I do. I'm a non- techie user but I understand enough to see that relying on Github is a terrible idea. Owned by company that feels entitled to your code for AI training, that can simply close your project when they like and with no recourse to u is... concerning.

You believe in privacy and privacy services yeah? Well, the only way we get there is by shunning services and corpos who refuse to play nice.

in reply to Organic Maps

that is a false choice, it does not have to binary of github or self hosting. codeberg is #FreeSoftware and collectively run by the community. There is no platform maintenance cost if you choose #codeberg. Do you like if codeberg actively promoting Google Maps and saying OSM is incomplete, and not convenient ? Free Software projects have to support and promote each other, if we grow together, everyone benefits. If every other Free Software were promoting convenience it'd affect OSM.
in reply to Organic Maps

You guys did so little research you didn't even know Codeberg exists?
in reply to Organic Maps

Doesn't matter to me! Thanks for building a great app.
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