This is a general complaint about vehicles, not necessarily EVs

Yes, that's like the whole point of my post, being E doesn't fix 90% of the issues caused by individual motorised transport vehicles. And city planning can't do anything about these inherent issues either, they can merely decide to make good, sustainable cities or car friendly cities. Good city planning policies stand in direct contrast to the amount of cars expected to be driven.

And I'm saying this not to shit on EVs, they must clearly replace ICE vehicles as soon as possible, but to warn that they will not fix the unsustainable state of affairs in transportation. Loads of people appear to actually believe they do and that's sort of dangerous. We're not gonna fix jack shit if we just transition these vehicles to being electric while further increasing car dependency and sprawl. We're gonna make it even worse.

My comment is not about what people claim about EVs but how they actually are.

youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8?t=797

I'm not going to claim that EVs are loud.

I'm going to state it as a fact: EVs are loud. About as loud as ICE cars. I live on a busy street, so I know that this is beyond dispute. The tire noise and wind resistance dominate the noise produced above about 30 kph. ICE vehicles these days have efficient engines and good soundproofing. Many are virtually silent if they go past my house slowly.

Unexpectedly, the hybrid-electric city buses that go past are among the quietest vehicles. They must use tires designed for a quiet, comfortable ride, because all I hear is a slight whoosh, even when they pass by in the quiet, wee hours of the morning.

(To be fair, EVs with quiet tires and moving <30kph are virtually silent, too.)

source is polestar and rivian, as noted in the graphic.

solid-state batteries are not yet viable at vehicle scale.

lightyear went bankrupt in 2023.

Oh, nice....

That's what I get for forgetting we live in Warhammer 2k

I wanted to double-check my numbers so i found a reddit thread asking people how often they charge their cars, and tried to extract info from it using mistral (so take it with a grain of salt. it gave sources but i managed to close the page after screenshotting).
::: spoiler transcript

User: how many times a week do people in this reddit thread charge their cars on average? old.reddit.com/r/electriccars/…

Mistral: In the Reddit thread you linked, most EV owners report charging their cars about 2–3 times per week on average. Many users mentioned plugging in their EVs at home whenever convenient, often overnight, rather than waiting for the battery to run low. Some charge daily out of habit, while others charge every few days depending on their driving needs and battery range. The majority have access to home charging, which makes frequent top-ups easy and convenient.

Charging Frequency (from user comments):

• About 30–40% of users charge daily, often overnight at home, regardless of battery level.
• Another 30–40% charge 2–3 times per week, usually when their battery drops below a certain range (e.g., 100 miles or 50%).
• The remaining 20–30% charge less frequently, such as once a week or only when needed for longer trips.

Typical Charging Behavior:

• Many users set their charge limit to 60–80% for daily use to preserve battery health.
• Some Tesla owners (especially with LFP batteries) keep their cars plugged in most of the time, charging to 100% without issue.
• Users with shorter commutes (e.g., <50 miles/day) often charge every 2–3 days, while those with longer commutes or less efficient EVs charge daily.

Range Added per Charge:

• Short Commutes (<50 miles/day): Many users add 50–100 miles per charge, often charging every 2–3 days.
• Moderate Use (50–150 miles/day): Users in this group typically add 100–200 miles per session, charging daily or every other day.
• Longer Trips or Less Frequent Charging: Some users add 150–300 miles, charging once a week or as needed.

Summary Table (Based on Thread Comments)

Inference: Most home chargers add enough range to cover their daily driving, rarely letting the battery drop below 20–30%. The data is sufficient to infer that 50–150 miles per charge is the norm for regular use.

User: how about car models? are there enough mentions of which model people drive that we can figure out the average number of kWhs used per capita from the added range and the size of the battery of the mentioned models?

Mistral: The Reddit thread does mention several specific EV models, and we can use their battery sizes and the reported range added per charge to estimate average kWh used per person. Here’s what we know:

Commonly Mentioned Models & Battery Sizes

From the thread, the most frequently mentioned models include:

• Tesla Model 3 (Standard/Long Range): ~50–82 kWh
• Tesla Model Y (Standard/Long Range): ~60–81 kWh
• Hyundai Kona Electric: ~39–64 kWh
• Chevy Bolt: ~65 kWh
• Ford Mustang Mach-E: ~68–98 kWh
• Nissan Leaf: ~40–62 kWh

Reported Range Added per Charge

• Most users add 50–150 miles per charge.
• A few add 150–250 miles (usually for longer trips or less frequent charging).

Estimating kWh Used per Charge

Using the EPA efficiency ratings (miles per kWh) for these models, we can estimate kWh used per charge:

Note: Efficiency varies with driving conditions, but these are reasonable averages.

Average kWh Used per Charge (Per Capita)

• For 50–100 miles added: ~15–35 kWh per charge
• For 100–150 miles added: ~25–50 kWh per charge

Most users fall in the 20–40 kWh per charge range, depending on their model and daily needs.

User: using the data on this page iea.org/reports/electricity-20… can we create a table for how much emissions each car would produce while charging in the listed regions? use the 2021 number.

Mistral: Here is a table estimating the CO2 emissions per 100 km for common EV models when charged in different regions, using 2021 CO2 emissions per kWh data from the IEA and typical battery sizes and efficiencies:

CO2 Emissions per 100 km for EVs by Region (2021 Data)

Notes & Assumptions

• CO2 per kWh (2021): EU ~250g, US ~380g, China ~550g, India ~700g.
• Energy use per 100 km: Based on EPA/real-world efficiency for each model.
• Calculation: (CO2 per kWh) × (kWh per 100 km) = kg CO2 per 100 km.

Key Takeaways

• EU and US: Lower emissions due to cleaner electricity grids.
• China and India: Higher emissions due to coal-heavy grids.
• Efficiency matters: More efficient cars (like the Tesla Model 3) emit less CO2 per km, even in high-emission regions.

User: data from polestar and rivian lifecycle analyses in 2021 estimates that over its lifetime, the electricity used by an "average" electric vecicle produces a total of 26 tonnes CO2eq. using the data we now have, can we estimate lower and upper bounds for the age of the mentioned models where they would have "produced" 26tCO2eq in different regions?

Mistral: Let’s use the kWh per charge and CO2 per kWh by region from our earlier tables to estimate how many years it would take for the mentioned EV models to reach 26 tonnes CO2eq from charging alone, based on typical charging habits.

Recap of Key Data

• kWh per charge (typical): 20–40 kWh
• CO2 per kWh (2021):
  
  • EU: 250 g
  • US: 380 g
  • China: 550 g
  • India: 700 g

  
  

• Charging frequency: 2–3 times per week (104–156 charges/year)

Calculations

1. CO2 per Charge (kg)

• EU: 20–40 kWh × 0.25 kg = 5–10 kg CO2/charge
• US: 20–40 kWh × 0.38 kg = 7.6–15.2 kg CO2/charge
• China: 20–40 kWh × 0.55 kg = 11–22 kg CO2/charge
• India: 20–40 kWh × 0.70 kg = 14–28 kg CO2/charge

2. Annual CO2 from Charging

• EU: 5–10 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 520–1,560 kg CO2/year
• US: 7.6–15.2 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 790–2,371 kg CO2/year
• China: 11–22 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 1,144–3,432 kg CO2/year
• India: 14–28 kg/charge × 104–156 charges = 1,456–4,368 kg CO2/year

3. Years to Reach 26 Tonnes (26,000 kg) CO2eq

• EU: 26,000 ÷ (520–1,560) = 17–50 years
• US: 26,000 ÷ (790–2,371) = 11–33 years
• China: 26,000 ÷ (1,144–3,432) = 8–23 years
• India: 26,000 ÷ (1,456–4,368) = 6–18 years

Note: These are rough estimates based on charging habits and grid emissions, and do not include manufacturing or other lifecycle emissions.

User: let's see how they change with different charging frequencies.

Mistral: Here’s how the years to reach 26 tonnes CO2eq change with different charging frequencies (1x, 2x, 3x, and 4x per week), using the same kWh per charge (20–40 kWh) and 2021 grid emissions:

Assumptions

• kWh per charge: 20–40 kWh
• CO2 per kWh (2021): EU 250g, US 380g, China 550g, India 700g

Years to 26 Tonnes CO2eq by Charging Frequency

User: what's the average scrapping age of vehicles in the listed regions?

Mistral: Here’s the average scrapping age of vehicles in the regions you asked about, based on the latest available data:

Average Scrapping Age by Region (2021–2024)

Region | Average Scrapping Age | Notes
-|--|-
European Union | ~12–17 years | EU average is 12.3 years; some countries (e.g., Greece, Estonia) average 17 years. Newer cars are found in Luxembourg (~7.9 years).
United States | ~12.6 years | As of 2024, the average age of cars and light trucks on the road is 12.6 years, with scrappage rates around 4.5–4.6% per year.
China | ~10–15 years | Most passenger vehicles are scrapped after 10–15 years, though policies are pushing for earlier scrappage of older, more polluting vehicles.
India | ~15 years | The national scrappage policy targets vehicles older than 15 years for mandatory scrapping, with incentives for voluntary scrappage of private cars over 15 years.
:::

my takeaway is that, if charged three times a week, which seems to be common, most ev's get to 26tCO~2~eq before being scrapped no matter their location.

A small point Re the EU average, you're including a bunch of countries that don't have as much wind power as the UK, and there's a world of difference between peak CO2 for peak electricity at teatime and early evening and CO2 for charging the car overnight when the electricity is cheapest exactly because it's greenest and there's so much wind power overnight (in the UK).

From your Forbes article:

Good news: amortizing the carbon cost over the decades-long lifespan of the equipment, Bernstein determined that wind power has a carbon footprint 99% less than coal-fired power plants, 98% less than natural gas, and a surprise 75% less than solar.

So I don't see how the carbon cost of generating that electricity can be so much higher than the carbon cost of petrol which is surely even higher than natural gas which doesn't require refineries, when it's actually about 2% as much over the lifetime of the equipment.

Like I said, graph is screwy. Someone in the fossil fuel industry doesn't want you to think that electric is greener. It's a lie. It's FUD. Stop parroting it.

your first paragraph makes no sense. yes the eu includes more countries than the uk. it's a connected market.

these stats are by polestar and rivian, as it says in the thing. if you have better sources, give them to me.

check my followup post.

it’s a connected market.

The UK isn't even in the EU, and different countries certainly have different energy mixes anyway.

if you have better sources, give them to me.

I literally quoted your own sources! I followed the links and I read them. Didn't you? I quoted them back to you. What a weird comment.

The UK isn’t even in the EU, and different countries certainly have different energy mixes anyway.

there's a huge mass of cables connecting the uk to the eu. energy you use is never "from" a single source, it's from wherever it's generated, which means it's from the eu grid. i don't even know why the uk is in this conversation?

I literally quoted your own sources! I followed the links and I read them. Didn’t you? I quoted them back to you. What a weird comment.

i did. i used the actual numbers presented by the sources though, rather than the predictions.

Next step would be attending city/town hall meetings, and slowly advocating for more and more public transit over time.

The dream of coast-to-coast public transit, the likes of which we saw before WWII, is still possible