You forget to mention the flipside: we can't sustain 8, let alone 10, billion with sustainable energy. The carrying capacity of the planet with sustainable energy is called the 18th century.

Sure, we can do it, who is ready for the consequences?

I feel you misunderstand my point.

I'm saying consumers are way less responsible for their purchasing decisions than many people think.

Car centricity is a societal problem. The big trucks are a car company propoganda problem.

Consumers are not babies. Most are not children. They can take full responsibility for their own choices and failure to research when it's available. There is a reasonable extent that can be forgiven from lack of information. But most is still their fault. See people drinking bottles water when they have perfect access to safe drinking water. See people driving to work when they're easily within public transit areas. See people buying slave labor made trinkets off temu, shein, amazon, AliExpress, and many more, or buying constant new shitly made polyester clothes because "fashion".

Society is created by those who participate. Hand waving "it's a society problem" denies the individual responsibility of everyone to guide society.

All the information is easily accessible and clear to everyone. They are making a conscious decision to pollute more for their own convenience. This is not saying companies are not also responsible for massive amounts of waste. Do not take it like that. But people need to also understand lifestyles cannot stay the same and still fight climate change. People need to give up their trinkets, fast fashion, cars, etc, if they want to actually fight climate change and pollution

Consumers are not babies. Most are not children. They can take full responsibility for their own choices and failure to research when it’s available.

This is an attitude that seeks to attribute blame rather than practically solve the problem.

This is evidenced by you continuing to say:

There is a reasonable extent that can be forgiven from lack of information.

Which only deals with this from thinking about this as a "who do I blame" rather than a "How can society solve this problem".

We've seen that consumers for instance, don't choose excess packaging, companies do.

In that same way, with things like the CAFE standards, Chicken tax and other ways that trucks are incentivised not to mention propagandized, its easy to see how this consumer "switch in preference" was manufactured, in the same way that the consumer switch to eating 4 times the amount of cheese within a few decades was a manufactured choice by teams of lobbyists.

We could all simply choose to consumer less animal product, be healthier and leave the environment in a much better position, but yet schools are still forced to feed kids milk with every meal due to lobbying.

Basically always, the root cause lies somewhere with some lobbyist group pushing their interests over that of the consumer.

You can handwave that away and choose to focus on personal choice, but to do that is to ignore the fact that for every issue you care about a whole lot, many people have issues they care about more, even if you're just talking about fellow climate appreciating folks. What I'm saying is people can't put all of their energy into every issue all at once. No human can. They'd burn out and be unable to move. That's why these things matter and can only really be solved at the policy level.

See people driving to work when they’re easily within public transit areas.

You ever stop to think of the long history of car companies actively and successfully lobbying to ruin public transits image and efficiency in the US?

This didn't just put up over night. People didnt just magically have these conclusions.

See people buying slave labor made trinkets off temu, shein, amazon, AliExpress, and many more, or buying constant new shitly made polyester clothes because “fashion”.

I guarantee you there are areas of life you are blind to as well, where someone equally as idealistic to you and equally looking for someone to blame rather than solving the problem, is screaming at the top of their lungs angry you don't do something about it thinking the same as you "the information is all there!!!"

All the information is easily accessible and clear to everyone. They are making a conscious decision to pollute more for their own convenience. This is not saying companies are not also responsible for massive amounts of waste. Do not take it like that. But people need to also understand lifestyles cannot stay the same and still fight climate change. People need to give up their trinkets, fast fashion, cars, etc, if they want to actually fight climate change and pollution

Yada yada yada, but they won't, and until you get the reasons why they won't, and how humans have finite focus, and do burnout, or become apathetic, often due to literal people whose jobs it is to get them to, you won't be trying to solve the problem, but instead you'll be trying to pin the blame to the least powerful people in the scenario.

This is an attitude that seeks to attribute blame rather than practically solve the problem.

Attribute responsibility. People need to take responsibility for their own decisions, and change them.

You can handwave that away and choose to focus on personal choice

I'm not. I mention it in response to people's attempts to claim it's never their fault. It's always someone else's fault. That there's nothing they can do, it's always everyone else.

We could all simply choose to consumer less animal product, be healthier and leave the environment in a much better position, but yet schools are still forced to feed kids milk with every meal due to lobbying.

And society would be better off for that change anyways.

You ever stop to think of the long history of car companies actively and successfully lobbying to ruin public transits image and efficiency in the US?

People who are in areas with public transit and refuse to use it because it's a minor inconvenience are specifically who I'm talking about that with. And yes, people's votes helped cause that change.

What I'm saying is people can't put all of their energy into every issue all at once. No human can

They don't need to. They can make multiple small choices and lifestyle changes to great benefit. A literal world ending threat should be the most important issue.

I guarantee you there are areas of life you are blind to as well

I'm sure there are. I know there are. Every year I strive to improve. To consume less. To eat less meat. To bike and rid myself of the car I drove for far too long. Improvement takes time. It's not a one second thing, it takes decades of effort. But it makes a difference, one little step, one person at a time, makes a difference. However, I can be sure I'm actually trying.

you won't be trying to solve the problem, but instead you'll be trying to pin the blame to the least powerful people in the scenario.

No rain drop thinks it caused the flood. Every, single, bit matters. A response needs to come from all sides. From the top down, regulating companies to use electric, tax heavily on plastic waste. From the bottom up, encouraging people to take public transit and bike, partly through public awareness campaigns and partly through increased bike and train infrastructure. You can't solve it by only focusing on companies. You HAVE to get the consumers to be willing to change their habits as well. People need to be aware that they DO have an impact, and their individual changes will make a difference.

A lot of people's apathy is driven by the false perception that they cannot make a difference with their own power. That their vote doesn't matter. These false perceptions are what need to be changes so that society can move forward, and push the companies, through laws, punishments, and boycotts, into being environmentally sound.

Attribute responsibility. People need to take responsibility for their own decisions, and change them.

You're just playing word salad here.

It's still about attributing blame because you refuse to account for how people operate and how effective lobbying/propaganda groups are on regular people who aren't as aware on any given topic as you are.

I’m not. I mention it in response to people’s attempts to claim it’s never their fault. It’s always someone else’s fault. That there’s nothing they can do, it’s always everyone else.

This is a made up strawman. No one is saying that here, and people aren't typically saying that without a large amount of nuance and less absoluteness on this topic.

And society would be better off for that change anyways.

You say this like you're making a point when instead you make it clear you udderly missed my point. The point was that its "technically" peoples choice, but it clearly isn't with how heavy the lobbying is.

The hope was that this would moove your opinion and help you culture an appreciation for the extremely strong effects of propaganda and lobbying such that something people think is choice, is far less choice than they think.

Perhaps I'm milking this point now, but I really thought it persuede you to think more about how people who aren't in your specific bubble think and are affected.

People who are in areas with public transit and refuse to use it because it’s a minor inconvenience are specifically who I’m talking about that with. And yes, people’s votes helped cause that change.

People's votes after what though? People didn't just randomly form these opinions.

People in Europe have completely different opinions in general, and you know what the major factor is? A lack of the massive inertial propaganda that the US has had. Did you check out my link? I encourage you to watch it.

It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.

I’m sure there are. I know there are. Every year I strive to improve. To consume less. To eat less meat. To bike and rid myself of the car I drove for far too long. Improvement takes time. It’s not a one second thing, it takes decades of effort. But it makes a difference, one little step, one person at a time, makes a difference. However, I can be sure I’m actually trying.

It sure does, now how can you say all that, but miss my point entirely that there could be someone putting the exact same amount of effort into being a better person yet not have their issues align with yours on this at all?

Do you not see why policy is the major way to change their habits?

No rain drop thinks it caused the flood. Every, single, bit matters.

You aren't arguing against me. You just aren't reading my points at all.

A response needs to come from all sides

That is literally impossible for the very same reasons that you said "I’m sure there are. I know there are." above. If you can't, how the hell are you expecting other people to for the issues you find most important?

You can’t solve it by only focusing on companies.

Quite frankly, you absolutely could. If the propaganda influencing consumer choices was stopped, you'd have a good enough solution.

Manufacturers would be making smaller vehicles due to regulations, people couldn't choose monstrosities, roads would get slimmer in new development, public transportation would be built better.

Its completely possible from a top down approach, but utterly impossible when trying to focus from a bottom up approach.

A lot of people’s apathy is driven by the false perception that they cannot make a difference with their own power.

Partially because there are so many folks like you who without realizing they are doing so, expect everyone to understand and care about every topic, even while you yourself obviously could not live up to such an unrealistic standard.

But also partially because of propaganda.

Why do you think BP loves telling people to take personal responsibility over climate issues? They know its a dead end.

That their vote doesn’t matter.

This part I absolutely agree with and constantly argue with people on lemmy about. So many people believe the only way out is some whimsical fantastical revolution that will never come, or a third party that would actually secure a victory for the enemies.

care about every topic

I expect them to care about the potential mass death of most humans and environments that has been blasting on the news and taught to most for decades .. and I think that's reasonable.

The point was that its "technically" peoples choice, but it clearly isn't with how heavy the lobbying is.

If someone tells you to kill a guy and you do, does it make sense to exclusively blame the person who told you? No. They've been given the information and tools to find more information.

even while you yourself obviously could not live up to such an unrealistic standard.

The standard I want is "trying" to do better. I want people to actually try to reduce their impact. That's it. It's not a high standard.

And simply, if you think propaganda can influence everyone enough that it makes changing individuals impossible, why do you think that convincing them to vote differently is possible?

Manufacturers would be making smaller vehicles due to regulations, people couldn't choose monstrosities, roads would get slimmer in new development, public transportation would be built better

It is a tad ironic that you talk about the influence of propaganda and are still stuck on the idea that people need cars.

. If you can't, how the hell are you expecting other people to for the issues you find most important?

Climate change is the single most important issue, bar none. There's no reasonable argument that can be made that the vast majority of humanity dying is the worst possible outcome, unless you go for an anti human perspective. I don't expect people to be perfect. I expect them to try.

I did not watch your video as I'm already well aware of the history of car lobbying in America. How people allowed car companies to do away with public transit. How they allowed propaganda to perpetuate. I don't believe people blindly believing clearly false propaganda are faultless

I expect them to care about the potential mass death of most humans and environments that has been blasting on the news and taught to most for decades … and I think that’s reasonable.

I promise you there are topics more important to other people than that.

Many, reasonably, care about the wave of fascism poised to severely harm them, their families, their loved ones or their fellow countryman, a more immediate threat.

Many, reasonably, care about the insane unaffordability of housing due to corruption, corporate landlords, landlords in general, and houses being treated as investment vehicles.

Many, reasonably are worried about the massively accelerating wealth inequality and the disaster this spells for them and their future generations.

Many....

The point is, every single one of these points is more not less important than the point you care about primarily to many people. They aren't wrong or stupid for having different priorities to you.

I would even go so far as saying that I think it's foolish to value something so large scale and existential like global collapse over the next few hundred years due to climate change than a lot of the societal elements that contribute to it.

What does it matter what climate future humans live in if they're enslaved or being murdered by fascists?

What does it matter if your descendants don't exist because they can't afford to live.

If someone tells you to kill a guy and you do, does it make sense to exclusively blame the person who told you? No. They’ve been given the information and tools to find more information.

Again, many people think the same thing for you, and they're just as right, yet completely uselessly so as you are.

This is purely a self masturbatory blame assignment rather than a useful piece of information to accomplish goals.

Worse than that, it chooses to ignorantly fundamentally misunderstand how people work, yet expect to change what it doesn't understand.

The standard I want is “trying” to do better. I want people to actually try to reduce their impact. That’s it. It’s not a high standard.

There you are again, missing the point and it feels like it has to be purposeful at this point.

Many people try to do better but can't be as focused on this as you are because they're being better in areas you are not being better in.

And simply, if you think propaganda can influence everyone enough that it makes changing individuals impossible, why do you think that convincing them to vote differently is possible?

This is an obvious and silly strawman.

I literally list why directly convincing people on this topic is less important and likely to work than impacting political systems that are used to uphold the propaganda points that cause these problems in the first place.

You're slamming into a brick wall rather than trying to pick the lock on the door.

It is a tad ironic that you talk about the influence of propaganda and are still stuck on the idea that people need cars.

Its crazy to be this ignorant and with a bad faith point to boot.

Carcentricity has made it such that many people do in fact need cars.

This is not a problem. that can be solved quickly.

You pretending that acknowledging this reality means that I can't conceive of anything else despite that obviously not being the case is you being dishonest in discussion, which at that point, why are you arguing? Why bother?

Climate change is the single most important issue, bar none.

An extremely naive and privileged perspective.

You're worrying about the future of the species like that is an entity that can feel pain. No, it's an idea, a prediction. It's something that absolutely is not the top concern of the people struggling and facing real issues to their lives right now at this very moment. Just about the only people I can imagine could possibly hold this opinion are out of touch well to do people.

I did not watch your video as I’m already well aware

You are clearly missing a lot, so if you actually walked the walk, you'd watch it and see what you're missing, because in this conversation alone you've made it clear you don't understand how deep or effective it has been, what policies have been put in place due to it, etc.

North American roads are the way they are due to it.

I don’t believe people blindly believing clearly false propaganda are faultless

You are so impossibly stuck up your own ass, sniffing your own farts.

There are literally thousands if not millions of you people on every conceivable issue under the sun, and you'd all hate each other if you met, because you all are so lacking in empathy and perspective that you'd all be befuddled and enraged you didn't all center around the single issues you all think are most important bar none. You'd all be irrate that the others dare "blindly believe this" and "foolishly follow that".

Until you people realize what a problem this mentality is, you'll literally never make substantive change.

You're worrying about the future of the species like that is an entity that can feel pain. No, it's an idea, a prediction. It's something that absolutely is not the top concern of the people struggling and facing real issues to their lives right now at this very moment. Just about the only people I can imagine could possibly hold this opinion are out of touch well to do people.

Good to know you have no idea what you're talking about. Climate change is already causing serious deaths, now. It's not just some future issue. It's genuinely horrifying that you don't understand that. It isn't just Future generations. It isn't abstract concepts. It's my generation that will be dying because of this.

Many, reasonably are worried about the massively accelerating wealth inequality and the disaster this spells for them and their future generations.

Because climate change won't.... ??

Yes, fascism is important. But not nearly as important as fighting climate change. There isn't a future to fight for if climate change isn't blocked, you do understand that, right?

This is not a problem. that can be solved quickly.

It could be solved in under a decade if people cared.

You don't seem to actually understand how dangerous climate change is presently. You still see it as an abstract future rather than an awful and worsening present

You are clearly missing a lot, so if you actually walked the walk, you'd watch it and see what you're missing, because in this conversation alone you've made it clear you don't understand how deep or effective it has been, what policies have been put in place due to it, etc.

I see what happened when voters and people actually cared. The cities changed, improved. It proves that propaganda is not some magical convincing force that forces people to think one way, the way you pretend it is.

Good to know you have no idea what you’re talking about. Climate change is already causing serious deaths, now.

Far less than the issues listed to the people affected.

Climate change deathes currently are largely avoidable and it comes up as a relatively small source of death.

You're nitpicking here to try to ignore the point.

It’s my generation that will be dying because of this.

Nope. No one alive today will witness any kind of apocalypse generation killing event.

Because climate change won’t… ??

You must worry about your house fire first before you fear the flood next month.

Yes, fascism is important. But not nearly as important as fighting climate change.

This is the type of "I'm a priveleged cisgendered straight white person so the marginalized people can be fed to the machine" ass comment I would expect from you.

They'll come for you eventually too bud.

There isn’t a future to fight for if climate change isn’t blocked, you do understand that, right?

Hysterics don't make you right. That is in more than 100 years when anyone talking right now is long dead.

Fascism could have you or I in a death camp within our lives, or trigger nuclear war, given it actually did the last time it flared up this seriously, except this time a shit ton of countries have nukes. Nukes? Talk about climate changing.

It could be solved in under a decade if people cared.

You continue to think from a perspective of blame rather than pragmatism.

People are the biggest hurdle for literally every major problem. Learning how the general public is propagandized too, what regulations reinforce and or strengthen the problem, how and which politicians are bought and paid off for to fight the problem and more.

The root cause and key is making the Overton window shift left. It is therefore the biggest problem, even to you, by being in the way for solving your problem as the actual biggest problem.

You don’t seem to actually understand how dangerous climate change is presently. You still see it as an abstract future rather than an awful and worsening present

I completely understand it. You clearly do not understand how bad the other problems I listed are.

You care far more about the rock we float on, than the people on said rock. Everything you say is in service of the rock rather than the people. What has more influence in peoples lives right now? All the things I mentioned.

Other people have good reason to be focused on those first.

I see what happened when voters and people actually cared. The cities changed, improved.

Oh which American cities are these? Are they per chance small mostly urban areas with progressive leaders?

I mean fuck it, I won't be coy, we all see Mamdani. Somehow you won't connect the dot's though.

It proves that propaganda is not some magical convincing force that forces people to think one way, the way you pretend it is.

This is once again you doing mental gymnastics to pretend that blaming people will solve the problem any at all. Blaming people does not work.