It's not an ethical dilemma. If a HUMAN driver got into a situation where they had to choose between hitting and killing a granny or baby, we'd rightly jail them for many years for reckless/dangerous driving.
A self-driving vehicle should be incapable of operating in a manner equivalent to a reckless human driver.
If a self-driving vehicle is capable of getting into such a situation, the car manufacturer is responsible for a crime of homicide and should be punished.
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It's concerning to me that this """ethical dilemma""" comes up so frequently regarding self-driving cars. Does self-driving mean *never slows or stops*? Are self-driving cars all designed after the bus in Speed?
@Charlie Stross to be honest, in that specific situation I'd also jail the planners involved in putting a pedestrian crossing just past a blind curve on a street with a speed limit too high to allow cars to stop before the pedestrian crossing.
@valhalla The "speed limit" you are referring to is, at least in German law, only one of 4 categories of speed limits: general speed limit according to road class, posted speed limit signs, being able to stop within sight range, and adaption of speed to the circumstances.
However I would expect¹ permanent circumstances such as a tight curve or a pedestrian crossing to be properly indicated in advance with signs and, if needed, a lower posted speed limit, and to have to adapt myself to circumstance that are changeable, such as the weather or works (these should come with a lower posted speed limit, tbf) or the road being full of protestors or whatever.
¹ not that I'd *trust* them to always do it. posted speed limits in Italy tend to be chosen by mysterious processes, in many cases
@0xDEADBEEF I think if the CEO were legally liable for the deaths caused by its product, we'd find that the engineering team and software developers would get dramatically different priorities and steers from management.
@ergative @0xDEADBEEF Not just the CEO; the board of directors, jointly and severally. Allow a design flaw to go to market that kills drivers, passengers, OR EXTERNAL BY-STANDERS (this includes via emissions!) and they should risk a jail term.
Rules of the road quite clearly state that you must be able to stop in the length you can see *at any time*. If the car was going faster than sensor distance / breaking time, it was breaking the law. And, fun fact, since it was obviously programmed to do that, it wasn't just breaking the law at the time it crossed the speed threshold, but from the very beginning.
An autonomous car that is even capable of hitting a stationary target is not street legal, by definition.
@henryk agreed when it comes to stationary objects, but I guess the "ethical dilemma" that is endlessly trotted out still applies in the scenario that the granny and the baby both run out from behind obscuring obstacles too late to brake. A common occurance, I'm sure you will agree 😉
@swaldman @henryk Still wrong. If there are any obscuring obstacles, the vehicle should be travelling slowly enough to stop *IF* something runs out from between them.
(It's not just humans entering the road, either: it could be another vehicle, possibly out of control.)
@henryk to an extent I agree, but unlike the "able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear" one, "able to stop if something comes from behind any object" is not a requirement we apply absolutely to human drivers.
I think it's a question of reasonableness vs recklessness. You don't overtake on a blind corner. But you also don't slow to <3mph to avoid potential injury every time you pass a parked van.
@swaldman Reasonableness isn't really relevant. I'm not sure how this is applied if a person breaks the law when crossing, but if there's a cross walk, and you can't see clearly if someone is about to cross, slowing down *is* a reasonable requirement.
In my neighbourhood roads narrow to a single lane at bus stops to force slow driving. I always drive very carefully past the bus sheds because a child can decide to run from one to another and I absolutely want to be able to stop. @cstross @henryk
But at other locations? You wouldn't be able to exceed 5 mph through most of many urban areas! (bear in mind that in the UK it is entirely legal to cross the road anywhere you like. Plus, even if not legal, that doesn't mean a kid won't do it at speed...)
@swaldman My point was also outside of designated crossings. Here's a specific bus stop I had in mind, with no crossing, and 40 km/h speed limit. Driving 40 km/h through here I would call irresponsible, and I never do that: maps.app.goo.gl/5wTZkXj2BXxECs…
But what would you say is a reasonable speed here? Any one of those cars could be hiding a kid about to run out. The vans and SUV could be hiding adults. To be sure of being able to stop for any of them, we're probably limited to a walking pace.
I think most people would think 20-30 kph was "reasonable" here, even though they couldn't guarentee being able to stop for an unexpected sprinter who hasn't looked for traffic.
@swaldman I slow down anywhere where there is a possibility to be children or pets I can't see clearly. Whether it's a parked car, a fence, or a bush. Through my own street I slow down significantly at any such places. The speed limit is 30, but the straight parts are built as a single lane here too to force cars to slow down.
Where the speed limit is higher, there are usually also no obstructions like that close to the road. At least not around here.
I feel like these "dilemmas" are often brought up by self driving proponents as a distraction. These cars routinely cause traffic issues, hit gates and other small obstacles and have numerous other issues doing the basic job, but by framing the discussion like this the conversation starts out assuming a much higher level of sophistication than is really there.
@JessTheUnstill or “can it tell the difference between a person in a wheelchair and car.”
There are lots of really good and challenging ethical questions even when the car is operating legally and safely, most of which also apply to a human operator. It’s irritating that the trolley problem is the only way journalists seem to want to frame it.
If I see a granny and a baby on a footbridge over a motorway, and throw both into the path of a car, I'm glad to hear it's the car driver being jailed and not evil me.
(Of course I wouldn't do that. On the other hand the temptation to drop a heavy stone into the path, oh never mind, I wouldn't do that either)
Michael J. Fox torna sullo schermo in Shrinking di Apple TV+ 🎬 Dopo il ritiro nel 2020, apparirà nella terza stagione della serie, esplorando il Parkinson attraverso il personaggio di Harrison Ford. #MichaelJFox #AppleTVPlus #Parkinsons 💫
> L’evoluzione ideologica della Silicon Valley, passata da simbolo progressista a fucina di una nuova destra tecnologica, per quello che potrebbe essere definito il tecnofascismo americano.
L'immagine mostra un gruppo di persone in abiti formali, probabilmente in un contesto ufficiale. Al centro, una donna con un abito bianco sorride, accanto a un uomo calvo con un abito scuro e cravatta bordeaux. Accanto a lui, un uomo con capelli scuri e barba grigia indossa un abito nero. Sullo sfondo, si vedono altre persone, alcune con espressioni serie, in un ambiente che sembra essere un luogo di importanza, come un palazzo o un edificio governativo.
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Massives Register: Flugdaten-Riese verkauft Milliarden Passagierprofile, verscherbelt sie auch an Trumps Einwanderungsbehörde heise.de/news/Big-Brother-in-d…
Airlines Reporting Corp., an der Lufthansa beteiligt ist, sammelt Milliarden Daten über Flugreisende und verscherbelt sie etwa an Trumps Einwanderungsbehörde.
"The 1948 Nakba and Today's Gaza Genocide Are Two Sides of the Same Coin"
"Maram tells me, “Diana, perhaps the death that we are trying to avoid is better than the life we are living? What if this is my life for the rest of my life? Isn’t death better?”
"Twelve-year-old girls should not be speaking this way."
"For 77 years, Palestinians have been invisible to Israelis – and much of the world."
On Nakba Day, Diana Buttu reflects on the suffering in the Strip and on how, for 77 years, Palestinians have been invisible to Israelis – and much of the world.
Wer nicht will, dass seine Daten aus Facebook/Insta für Training der META AI extrahiert werden, sollte sehr schnell Widerspruch einlegen. Fristende ist 25/26. Mai! Hier die Anleitung dafür 👇 #Meta #press #KI #AI #DSGVO
Sie möchten nicht, dass Ihre Daten bei Facebook, Instagram oder WhatsApp genutzt werden, um Meta AI zu trainieren? Hier erfahren Sie, wie Sie widersprechen.
Sin una bala de Johnny Penicilina Y Los Frixuelos Eléctricos. Producer: Sergio Tutu Lyricist: Johnny Penicilina Music Publisher: Boomerang Discos youtu.be/-YsfGDHW7d4 #música #musika #music #musicasturiana
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
Il 21 maggio 2025, dalle ore 16:30 alle 18:00, si terrà il primo incontro di “Facciamo Luce”, un’iniziativa di mappatura collaborativa dedicata alla città di #Milano […] --- wikimedia.it/news/facciamo-luc…
China launched 12 satellites on Wednesday as part of the âoeThree-Body Computing Constellation,â the worldâ(TM)s first dedicated orbital computing network led by ADA Space and Zhejiang Lab.
Le delegazioni di Ucraina e Russia parteciperanno a Istanbul al primo incontro diretto dal 2022, ma in assenza del presidente russo Putin le speranze di progressi reali sono scarse.
Il 16 maggio le delegazioni di Ucraina e Russia parteciperanno a Istanbul ai primi colloqui diretti dalla primavera del 2022, ma in assenza del presidente russo Vladimir Putin le speranze di progressi reali sono considerate scarse. Leggi
The image is a promotional poster for a symposium titled "Filosofia da História da Filosofia: A Ideia de uma Disciplina." The poster is divided into two sections: the left side contains text, and the right side features a black and white photograph.
The text on the left side provides information about the symposium, including its date (23 May 2025), time (09h30 – 18h30), and location (FLUP, Sala de Reuniões). It also mentions the symposium's focus on the discipline of Philosophy of the History of Philosophy, founded by Martial Gueroult, and its aim to explore the relationships between philosophy and the history of philosophy from various perspectives.
The photograph on the right side shows two individuals seated at a table with books in the background, suggesting an academic setting. The image is credited to "Ma nuit chez Maud (1969) | Eric Rohmer."
The bottom of the poster includes the organizers' name, Silvia Bento, and the logo of the Instituto de Filosofia, Aesthetics, Politics, Knowledge RG, along with the logos of FLUP and FCT.
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The image is a program schedule for a conference or seminar, presented in a black and white format. The schedule is divided into several sessions, each with a specific time and topic. The text is overlaid on a background image of a room with two people seated on a couch, engaged in conversation. The room is softly lit, with a lamp visible in the background.
The schedule begins at 09:30 with an opening session by Silvia Bento from the Universidade do Porto, titled "Filosofia da História da Filosofia: A Ideia de uma Disciplina (considerações introdutórias)." The sessions continue with various topics, including discussions on the history of philosophy, ethics, and the philosophy of art. Notable speakers include José Leme, António Maroues, Maria João Couto, João Lemos, Paula Oliveira e Silva, João Rebelde, and Domingos Faria, all affiliated with the Universidade do Porto or other institutions.
The schedule also includes a lunch break at 12:30 and concludes at 18:30. The text is organized in a clear, structured format, with session times and titles prominently displayed. The overall layout is clean and easy to read, with the text in white against the darker background, ensuring high contrast for readability.
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Thos will be two bits of legislation to, effectively, deal with the future of The Telegraph. Think of all the legislation that Governments have said they don't have time to put forward and it feels pretty grubby ft.com/content/30e10b98-1958-4…
Please, could you sign and share a petition to stop #LGBTQ eliminationist "conversion practices" (pseudoscientific nonsense therapies fit only to harm and punish queer kids) within the European Union? It needs urgent action today, and would send a huge message of solidarity!
By the way, since I know there's a lot of Germans on Mastodon:
The need right now on the EU citizen petition against anti-LGBTQ "conversion therapy" ( mastodon.social/@mcc/114512352… ) is raw votes from anywhere. BUT as it happens Germany's currently the closest %-wise to being the 8th country to endorse the petition!
15.5k DE votes would turn Germany green on this map, and send a pro-LGBTQ message to German lawmakers¹:
¹ DE already has a local law banning gay/trans conversion therapy against minors.
yaaaaas. Germany is over the threashold. We don't need it since there already was ≥7 countries over the threshhold, but at least it's on the way to 1M.
EU citizens' initiative to ban conversion practices targeting LGBTQ+ people needs to reach: —minimum thresholds in 7 countries: ✅ —1 million total signatures: ⏳ (currently 875k)
Deadline is tomorrow, Friday 17 May 2025. Sign it, share it, get it over the line: eci.ec.europa.eu/043/public
Il 31 maggio sarò a Como, allo Yacht Club, per il convegno "Fake News e Social". Relatori: Lorenzo Montali, Paolo Attivissimo, Federico Pennestrì, Marco Valle, Mario Guidotti. Ingresso libero, posti limitati. Per iscrizioni: info@premiocittadicomo.it
L'immagine è un poster per un evento intitolato "FAKE NEWS E SOCIAL: Come difendersi dalla disinformazione dilagante", che si terrà sabato 31 maggio 2025 al Yacht Club di Como. L'evento è organizzato dall'Associazione Eleutheria e si svolgerà dalle 8:30 alle 13:00.
Il programma dell'evento include:
8:30 Apertura al pubblico
9:00 "Perché crediamo ai complotti: una lettura psicosociale" con Lorenzo Montali (Università di Milano-Bicocca, Presidente CICAP)
9:45 "Come difendersi dalle bufale sui social" con Paolo Attivissimo (Giornalista scientifico)
10:30 "Perché non crediamo più nella scienza" con Federico Pennestri (IRCCS Osp. Galeazzi S.Ambrogio - Univ. V.S. Raffaele)
11:15 Pausa caffè
11:30 "Falsi e complotti nella storia" con Marco Valle (Giornalista e storico)
12:15 "Fake news in medicina" con Mario Guidotti (Neurologo)
13:00 Fine lavori
L'ingresso è gratuito e si prega di inviare una prenotazione all'indirizzo info[@]premiocittadicomo.it. L'evento è sponsorizzato da vari enti e aziende locali, tra cui la Provincia di Como, la Regione Lombardia, la Camera di Commercio Como-Lecco, l'Università degli Studi dell'Insubria, e altri.
Il poster presenta un'immagine di una persona che utilizza una lente d'ingrandimento su un laptop, simbolo della ricerca e della verifica delle informazioni.
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Birmanie, le soutien du SPF se poursuit secourspopulaire.fr/birmanie-l… "Le 28 mars 2025, un puissant séisme de magnitude 7,7 a frappé le centre de la Birmanie (Myanmar), avec un épicentre situé dans la région de Mandalay. Pour répondre à cette urgence, le Secours populaire français a mobilisé l’ensemble de son réseau de partenaires en Asie, notamment dans les pays limitrophes afin de déterminer les meilleures conditions d’agir sur la zone… Rencontre
*Police Shot Them in the Head With Rubber Bullets. Now UCLA Gaza Protesters Are Suing. Shooting people in the head with these less-lethal weapons can cause permanent brain damage. It is something thugs do to people they hate.
Lavoratori e lavoratici dello spettacolo contestano ancora una volta il Museo Maxxi di Roma per essere teatro di mostre finanziate dall'industria delle armi Leonardo. Basta usare la cultura per ripulire il sionismo.
Contro il Remigration Summit, il conclave della nazisteria europea annunciato a Milano (ma potrebbe tenersi, in realtà, a Gallarate, Varese) sono numerose le mobilitazioni antifasciste a Milano e...
New segment just dropped, whodis? Get to meet the wonderful dynes behind Dyne.org in this mini-series of interviews. We talk code, hacking, passion, the simple life, the meaning of the universe, and everything... news.dyne.org/coffee-break-vol…
Caracas (OrinocoTribune.com)—Bolivian President Luis Arce has announced that he will not be running for re-election in the coming general elections, scheduled for August 2025.
Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Oblomov reshared this.
tessarakt
in reply to Elena ``of Valhalla'' • • •Elena ``of Valhalla''
in reply to tessarakt • • •@tessarakt @Charlie Stross that's more or less the same in Italian law.
However I would expect¹ permanent circumstances such as a tight curve or a pedestrian crossing to be properly indicated in advance with signs and, if needed, a lower posted speed limit, and to have to adapt myself to circumstance that are changeable, such as the weather or works (these should come with a lower posted speed limit, tbf) or the road being full of protestors or whatever.
¹ not that I'd *trust* them to always do it. posted speed limits in Italy tend to be chosen by mysterious processes, in many cases
Ergative Absolutive
Unknown parent • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to Ergative Absolutive • • •jorny
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •The baby and grandma is also crossing using A GOD DAMN PEDESTRIAN CROSSING.
To quote a philospher who we had theory class with in architecture school:
"Utilitarianism is just an endless stream of stupid scenarios"
Dan Sugalski
in reply to jorny • • •Henryk Plötz
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Rules of the road quite clearly state that you must be able to stop in the length you can see *at any time*. If the car was going faster than sensor distance / breaking time, it was breaking the law.
And, fun fact, since it was obviously programmed to do that, it wasn't just breaking the law at the time it crossed the speed threshold, but from the very beginning.
An autonomous car that is even capable of hitting a stationary target is not street legal, by definition.
Oblomov reshared this.
Simon Waldman
in reply to Henryk Plötz • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to Simon Waldman • • •@swaldman @henryk Still wrong. If there are any obscuring obstacles, the vehicle should be travelling slowly enough to stop *IF* something runs out from between them.
(It's not just humans entering the road, either: it could be another vehicle, possibly out of control.)
Simon Waldman
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@henryk to an extent I agree, but unlike the "able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear" one, "able to stop if something comes from behind any object" is not a requirement we apply absolutely to human drivers.
I think it's a question of reasonableness vs recklessness. You don't overtake on a blind corner. But you also don't slow to <3mph to avoid potential injury every time you pass a parked van.
Veronica Olsen 🏳️🌈🇳🇴🌻
in reply to Simon Waldman • • •@swaldman Reasonableness isn't really relevant. I'm not sure how this is applied if a person breaks the law when crossing, but if there's a cross walk, and you can't see clearly if someone is about to cross, slowing down *is* a reasonable requirement.
In my neighbourhood roads narrow to a single lane at bus stops to force slow driving. I always drive very carefully past the bus sheds because a child can decide to run from one to another and I absolutely want to be able to stop. @cstross @henryk
Simon Waldman
in reply to Veronica Olsen 🏳️🌈🇳🇴🌻 • • •@veronica @henryk
At designated crossings, I agree with you.
But at other locations? You wouldn't be able to exceed 5 mph through most of many urban areas! (bear in mind that in the UK it is entirely legal to cross the road anywhere you like. Plus, even if not legal, that doesn't mean a kid won't do it at speed...)
Veronica Olsen 🏳️🌈🇳🇴🌻
in reply to Simon Waldman • • •@swaldman My point was also outside of designated crossings. Here's a specific bus stop I had in mind, with no crossing, and 40 km/h speed limit. Driving 40 km/h through here I would call irresponsible, and I never do that: maps.app.goo.gl/5wTZkXj2BXxECs…
@cstross @henryk
Street View · Google Maps
Street View · Google MapsSimon Waldman
in reply to Veronica Olsen 🏳️🌈🇳🇴🌻 • • •In that case I would agree with you.
But what would you say is a reasonable speed here? Any one of those cars could be hiding a kid about to run out. The vans and SUV could be hiding adults. To be sure of being able to stop for any of them, we're probably limited to a walking pace.
I think most people would think 20-30 kph was "reasonable" here, even though they couldn't guarentee being able to stop for an unexpected sprinter who hasn't looked for traffic.
Veronica Olsen 🏳️🌈🇳🇴🌻
in reply to Simon Waldman • • •@swaldman I slow down anywhere where there is a possibility to be children or pets I can't see clearly. Whether it's a parked car, a fence, or a bush. Through my own street I slow down significantly at any such places. The speed limit is 30, but the straight parts are built as a single lane here too to force cars to slow down.
Where the speed limit is higher, there are usually also no obstructions like that close to the road. At least not around here.
@cstross @henryk
Chris Belanger
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Angus McIntyre
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Matt May
Unknown parent • • •@JessTheUnstill or “can it tell the difference between a person in a wheelchair and car.”
There are lots of really good and challenging ethical questions even when the car is operating legally and safely, most of which also apply to a human operator. It’s irritating that the trolley problem is the only way journalists seem to want to frame it.
Uilebheist
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •If I see a granny and a baby on a footbridge over a motorway, and throw both into the path of a car, I'm glad to hear it's the car driver being jailed and not evil me.
(Of course I wouldn't do that. On the other hand the temptation to drop a heavy stone into the path, oh never mind, I wouldn't do that either)
jwz
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Fact check: if the human driver was not drunk and did not flee the scene, they wouldn't even get their license suspended.
* Skin color may apply
Christof Damian 💙💛
in reply to jwz • • •@jwz
And if the driver run over people on bicycles instead, nothing would happen. Even if drunk and fleeing the scene.
"The sun was in my eyes"
@cstross
Adam Kennedy
in reply to jwz • • •