I believe this is a false equivalence. Supporting a nominee for antitrust, is not the same as endorsing everything else Trump may or may not believe in or flirting with Nazism as you put it. It goes too far to draw that conclusion about Proton or myself.
Lemmy.world is the worst offender I have come across personally. Lemmy.ml is reddit like too, but it's mostly okay for discussion and it hosts a lot of posts so I don't really want to block it.
It absolutely justifies Indians using the swastika. They didn't agree to the nazis stealing their culture, that had existed for thousands of years, to use as their logo. Don't be racist.
this has nothing to do with race, i was making an analogy. I'm neither in/from Germany, nor in/from India. I just happen to know this:
The German and Austrian postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the swastika, the sig rune, the Celtic cross (specifically the variations used by white power activists), the wolfsangel, the odal rune and the Totenkopf skull illegal, except for certain enumerated exemptions.
Based in Hong Kong, it organizes exhibits, brings in Holocaust survivors to give lectures, and arranges trips to Poland for the annual March of the Living program.
Our license plates look like this: 2/3-letter city identifier - 1/2 letters you can choose - a 1-4 digit number you can choose. A friend of mine has the initials A.H. and was born in 1988. He wanted CITY - AH - 88. Registration did not allow it as it's nazi dog whistling.
Dog whistling is very common to find like-minded fascists and nazis. Kind of a sad, pathetic life if you think about it.
I'm just aware of how these people signal to each other. I don't know anything about the Proton CEO's politics, but numbers like 14 and 88 in usernames are common dogwhistles.
While yes adding your birth year to your username is common (but terrible OpSec), adding 88 or HH or other Nazi symbolism is also common among their community. Especially in an open setting.
It serves as a shibboleth for the alt-right that you are one of them.
Andy will one day find out that, in the eye of the magat beholder, he is nothing but yellow. I hope he enjoys getting spent as the token he has become.
According to Andy's logic, if Hitler were the president of some unfortunate country, we should differentiate the boss from his good nominees. Even using a company founded by an entire community to show a good evaluation made by one of its founders to give him a loving pat on the back and show the world that he is not completely bad as they think, but not meaning that the founder agrees with all his innocent actions, of course, such as disregarding the rights of many people around the world because they are just part of the democratic game.
“People forget I don’t live in China. Just because I praise Mao for wanting to shed the yoke of cultural tradition, doesn’t mean I necessary support everything he’s doing…” -Andy, if this was 1966
It would be one thing if Trump was actually anti-trust...but he isn't.
He's anti companies which don't prostrate themselves in front of him and bow to his whims. They're bad, terrible, anti American companies. The ones that do are great, wonderful, beautiful companies. The bad ones need to be broken up and given to the big ones.
He's so transparent it's painful. If someone says good things about Trump or give him money, they're good. If they don't, they're bad. It's absurdly obvious.
If that motivation still leads to work against tech monopolies, good. Can't wait for people to do the right thing for the right reason. If that won't happen it will be criticized as a lack of action.
Ultimately the benefit for the population is having as much freedom and fair competition in the tech space as possible. If that comes from Trump hallucinations, from a dream or from something else, who cares...?
OK, but it's a speculation as much as the other position. I also think it won't happen, but it's besides the point. Does it matter IF trump does it for a good or a bad reason? If it happens, can we be happy about it?
How can anyone possibly think that Trump is against tech monopolies when Bezos, Musk, and Zuckerberg are going to be sitting behind him shoulder to shoulder at the inauguration?
He expressed his motivations, which we are all free to disagree with and consider stupid. He considers especially the past history for the current antitrust nominee. Either way (and he said this too), we will be all evaluating actions, and at the moment we are speculating on what's going to happen. Why so much heat for an opinion on such thing though?
He should have just stayed the fuck out of Americans politics being a provider of a secure service that many Americans of all political persuasions use.
He is an idiot who cost his company business. The only spin is trying to downplay it at this point. The consequences are lost profits.
Let's be real. You mean he should have stayed out of it if he was going to voice an opinion that doesn't match yours. People don't want apolitical, they want an echo chamber.
No, he should stay out of either side because business is about making money. I don't want to know what politics you support. I don't care for politicizing everything. It is a fucking turn off.
You want my money, do your job, sell me your product, give me your service, but don't talk to me about your hot takes on politics. Also religion as well. I and many many other people don't want to hear it.
Your comment might hold a valid argument, if your previous comments hadn't made it perfectly clear you take issue with the fact he praised something a politician you don't like has done.
Whether you agree with my character or not what I said was accurate for any business person/enterprise. It is really not beneficial and increases risk unnecessarily.
Better that they tell us imo. If someone thinks that the people I care about don't deserve to exist for reasons no one can control, I'd rather know and avoid giving them money than to help them quietly gain influence and power until they can eradicate these people themselves.
There is a certain logic to this. I tend to agree that I would like to know. I also think I would probably find out I would have to be self sufficient if I truly did not want to give to bad actors.
You say it doesn't match that other users opinion, but doesn't it not match the vast majority of proton users opinions? Authoritarians aren't usually big on personal privacy. So praising one when you run a company based upon privacy is a dumb idea. It would be like running a vegan food company and praising people who like Slaughter cattle. It's a stupid fucking mindset. Which says a lot of things to me about his capacity as a CEO frankly. If he's this dumb why should people trust them to run a business they frequent?
Maybe he should have just left Trump's name out of it entirely as that seems to be what really pushed people's buttons.
It probably didn't help, but no, I don't think that was it. I think it was his sweeping generalizations about dems/republicans as a whole, along with the insinuation that dems were bought, republicans are "looking out for the little guys", and the election undermined the will of the people:
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost. Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
You are right about the generalization on parties, but the "little guy" he meant are small tech companies opposed to big tech. It was clear to me in the context, and to clear any doubt, he explicitly said that in a reddit comment.
I want to specify because this has been stretched on here as far as "he said republicans care for the working class".
Added for completeness. Lots of people got pissed because they assumed he meant that in general republicans stand with the little guy, prompting comments such as "what about trans/immigrants/etc.".
You did not do that, of course, but you can see how your comment could reinforce this opinion in people who didn't read the actual tweet and discussion and were just looking for reasons to get angry.
So, to get this straight, for you it's impossible to recognize that a pick for a position is a good pick in the Trump government, by definition, without consideration of the actual pick?
To me this is religion, not politics or ideology (which I both consider very good things). To be even more clear, I consider Andy's position completely rational and legitimate in this case. I believe it's absolutely legitimate to be happy Trump picked someone good for a position and at the same time not support the rest 98%. At most, the interesting debate is why that pick is not good, which is 100% opinable and worthy of a discussion.
But saying that any statement, in any context, whatever narrow and specific equal full support is completely insane to me.
by all means, argue that you think there's a fuss over nothing, but if you leave important context out seemingly because it doesn't suit your narrative it weakens your argument substantially.
I know what happened, I followed quite thoroughly.
He thinks that republicans are now the ones with a higher chance to push antitrust cases against big tech (I.e., work for the little guy - EDIT: source). He thinks this based on the last few years and a few things that happened. He likes the nomination from Trump. How is this a full support to Trump? How believing that republicans will do better - in this area - equals being a Nazi?
Of course I believe that there is a fuss over nothing. The above statement has been inflated and I have already read "he applauded to Trump antitrans policies", " posted Nazi symbols" and other complete fantasies.
Many people, who are on the internet on a perpetual witch hunt decided to interpret a clearly specific tweet (about antitrust and big tech) as a global political statement, and read that "little guy" as "common man" or - I have read it here on Lemmy - "working class". Basically everyone tried to propose ideas about why that post was so awful, rather than first trying to understand what the hell he meant. I will agree the first tweet is ambiguous, but that's because it's a 200 characters tweet, he then explained his position quite clearly, and the summary above is what he actually meant.
This "context" added doesn't move my post a centimeter IMO.
See, now that's a more thorough explanation of your position.
I disagree with pretty much all of your assertions (though the witch hunt stuff can be true sometimes) , but at least i know I'm disagreeing with an opinion formed using the whole of the information provided.
This “context” added doesn’t move my post a centimeter IMO.
It shows you read the initial information in it's entirety and still came to the conclusion you did.
That removes the possibility of responses such as "Did you even read the initial tweet?".
Well... it should remove that possibility, in practice it just means you can safely ignore those responses because clearly the people making those responses haven't read your response in it's entirety.
While it's certainly true that some of the people who are angry at him for that tweet are saying things in their anger that are overboard, I think only pointing out the most ridiculous things that people who disagree with you have ever said in their anger is a really terrible way of engaging honestly on the subject.
It's important to remember that an authoritarian that always figured out what the right thing to do was and did the opposite of that would be a really bad authoritarian. Republicans at the state level have been increasing state surveillance to hunt down and punish people for choices they make with their own bodies. For a lot of people in America, Trump is the head of the organization that they want privacy to protect themselves from, and the current largest threat to privacy in America.
For the CEO of a company that is supposedly about protecting our privacy to completely unprompted start publicly praising decisions made by the very threat we're supposed to trust them to protect us from, and then to double down on their praise when called out, is deeply concerning.
Yes. It's true that not every single thing Trump does will be the worst possible thing, but his goals are fundamentally opposed to ours. When I say I want big tech to be broken up it's because I want their to be less concentration of power. When Trump wants to break up big tech it's because he wants to eliminate the competition to his concentration of power. That is not worthy of my praise, even if in any one particular instance the thing he is doing is similar to what I would do, and the fact that the CEO of Proton either doesn't understand this or doesn't care is deeply concerning. I do not trust them after this, and I doubt they can ever get that trust back.
He praised one thing, and motivated that praise. It's 100% possible to disagree, but I don't find it concerning at all. I find it reasonable, because proton can better protect the privacy of users if more people can choose freely privacy oriented tools (like proton). Hence, if Trump does or says something that can help moving in that direction, it can be labeled as a good thing. Not every sentence is a collective or global assessment of all things considered.
When Trump wants to break up big tech it's because he wants to eliminate the competition to his concentration of power.
this is something US citizens should concern themselves
it is only tangentially irrelevant
if by breaking up monopolies people will be able to choose more privacy-preserving services, what you think is Trump's goal will fail anyway. More privacy and less data is also a way to limit the amount of demographic targeting he uses so well in his campaigns.
So I am good with him doing the right thing for the wrong reason, and I wish him a swift failure afterwards.
doesn't understand this or doesn't care is deeply concerning
Have you considered that he might not agree with what is just your opinion? Obviously you are free to draw any conclusion you want and not use them.
Did you read his actual comments? He literally made propagandistic claims in support of Republicans and in opposition to Democrats. Or do you agree with him that Republicans are "for the little guy"? Its complete nonsense made up to promote the Republican party.
His words about the Gail Slater nomination specifically were.
Great pick by @realDonaldTrump. 10 years ago, Republicans were the party of big business and Dems stood for the little guys, but today the tables have completely turned. People forget that the current antitrust actions against Big Tech were started under the first Trump admin.
I disagree with Yen here, but characterizing that statement as “republicans are the right choice for their policies and democrats are not,” seems like a real stretch.
tl:dr Proton CEO came out on Twitter and praised Trump's selection for FTC leader. Which is fine, in my opinion, even though I disagree with it. What's not so fine is that he followed that up with basically "dems are bought and conservatives are more likely to fight for consumer privacy", which is abundantly clearly to anyone who pays attention to US politics, objectively incorrect.
The biggest problem to me was the official Proton reddit account making an official statement agreeing with Andy. Andy blamed this on a "miscommunication" and it has since been deleted, but probably only because of the backlash they were receiving.
The biggest problem to me is the CEO of a company whose entire focus is on privacy and privacy advocacy being so incredibly ignorant of US politics as it pertains to privacy.
I thought the whole point stood on "company whose main point is privacy". In this case, his views on antitrust may be naive, but it's quite easy to see how what he thinks might happen with antitrust/big tech is indirectly benefiting the privacy of users (worldwide). So doesn't it fit directly with the opinion of a CEO of a company whose main point is privacy? Ultimately proton didn't change product because of this trump decision, didn't change internal policies, terms, privacy policy, nothing.
He has stated intentions to ease his predecessor's scrutiny of business mergers and acquisitions, while continuing critical oversight of big tech platforms.
Given recent events, I really don't see how bending the knee to Trump is any different than bending the knee to the Democrats, especially Biden who committed genocide for 15 months. It's just another capitalist bending the knee to the world hegemon in the United States. Trump is just more straightforward and bombastic about the USA's position in the world as it's hegemon and it's demands, forcing ordinary people, especially liberals in the United States, to confront that reality directly, whilst under Biden that was obfuscated by flowery language and decorum. I guess that decorum and flowery language was enough for US liberals to "turn off" so to speak, and go back to brunch while the world burns.
See this is the exact liberal nonsense I'm talking about. How is Trump "subservient to Russia and China"? Because he views continuing the war in Ukraine as no longer in the United States' interest? And China? I thought Trump was all about tariffs on Chinese goods and starting a trade war in his last term. I don't see that as subservient, that's confrontation. A negative confrontation that just hurt everyone globally, but maybe necessary from a third world perspective, waking up the third world to the reality of the United States and it's economic warfare. If you're talking about dialing down the temperature against China in his upcoming term, that would be because the US benefits from Chinese imports and can't wean itself off of them due to a lack of domestic manufacturing and industry, and because China needs a market to sell their goods to as domestic consumption + exports to the rest of the world can't make up for US consumption, so they'll give in to US demands. I fail to see how such a position is "pro China" it's just self interest.
You have to stop viewing politics through the personalities of world leaders as if it's some kind of Hollywood movie, and view the material reality. If the USA is no longer interested in pursuing a certain action or decides to escalate on another front in the next four years, ask yourself why is that the case, instead of defaulting to "Trump crazy stupid strongman dictator selling out the USA". That kind of liberal analysis is not helpful and will leave you lost. Never underestimate your adversary.
For example in Greenland, many people were going on about how Trump is some big idiot that wants a country that looks big on a Mercator projection. Meanwhile, the United States secured a large rare earth metals deposit in Greenland, stoping Chinese mining companies from getting the rights to it. The US company that bought the rights to the rare earth metals deposit signed a contract with the United States Department of Defence to process the metals. While everyone was distracted by Trump talking nonsense, the US pulled of a heist and exerted more political pressure on its allies. When one hand is doing something (in this case Trump's loud mouth), always look at moves the other hand is making (in this case, the US DoD getting more control in Greenland over their mining deposits). If you fail to do so, the jester will rob you blind. In this case, a large deposit of Rare Earth Ores in Greenland, China excluded and Denmark further vassalised.
Profitez des vidéos et de la musique que vous aimez, mettez en ligne des contenus originaux, et partagez-les avec vos amis, vos proches et le monde entier.
He's kind of right on the money and kind of being completely dumb.
The fact of it is that Republicans don't want to help privacy or take down big tech's abuses, they want to make it worse. All of the reasonable things Andy has said have taken place past that, so in a way the entire conversation is talking past the point.
The question is, how can somebody so influential at a major privacy company not have such a pre-school understanding of major world figures' relationships to his core business?
Oh FFS. Please stop abusing the word "Nazi" for every tiny transgression against 2025-era US progressive biases. Why do Americans do this - do you not learn anything at school? Words have meanings. Whatever the reason, to compare someone who isn't "fighting for a more just and equal society" to a "Nazi" just makes you look like a know-nothing ignoramus. It discredits whatever you have to say.
Response to the predictable justifications. Are you all aware that Putin calls democratic Ukraine "Nazi" for exactly the reasons you're all calling Trump one - namely, that it's a big powerful word? Yes, I'm aware of Trump's provocations and impulses. In other times Trump would probably have been more Mussolini than Berlusconi (i.e. a fascist). But "Nazi" is on a whole other level: it implies an apocalyptic, totalitarian, genocidal subversion of what most people consider civilization. This was actually a thing and it bears almost no connection to Trump's brand of chaotic reactionary populism. If you know anything about history then you should know this already. To insinuate that Trumpism is Nazism is insulting to intelligence.
Trump literally brags about studying Hitlers speeches. His father was a well known Nazi sympathizer.
Trump often uses Nazi rhetoric and sologans. The examples of these are extremely numerous and no other broadly supported American politician has been caught as often, all but assuring dog-whistling.
Neo-Nazis openly back Trump and are in his inner circle. They've been caught with swastika flags and tattoos, SS tattoos, 88 tattoos, often ending merchandise on Trump's own websites with $X.88, lifting their arms in a Sig Heil at rallies, etc etc etc etc.
Trump has been asked to condemn his Neo-Nazi supporters and their racial violence, and he refuses.
If it quacks like a Nazi, acts like a Nazi, and literally claims to be a Nazi- we should call it a Nazi.
Sure, the recesses of Trump's mind seem to be a pretty dark place. But the guy was already president and we all know that whatever happens next, it's not going to look anything like Germany circa 1938. You know it, I know, we all all know it. America has strong institutions, Trump is fat and lazy, and most of his followers are not even "national conservatives" let alone fascists or (ridiculously) Nazis. They're people who voted against inflation and immigration. In the meantime, by hystericizing the language like this, you're simultaneously making fools of yourselves and alienating people who you might otherwise persuade.
Last time he had opposition inside his party. Powerful people who didn't want to rock the boat, the 'old guard's. He had a split supreme court. He had a pandemic that slowed and in many ways prevented his plans.
Well, unfortunately, those old guard conservatives have largely been purged. The supreme court has been packed. And while pandemics are not entirely common, people have been lulled into a false sense of security and are unlikely to respond the same.
I don't expect us to lose our vote. But I do expect voter suppression to escalate dramatically.
I don't expect ethic cleansing, but I expect a lot of racial violence and escalating racial tensions.
I don't expect world war, but I do expect a massive erosion of global diplomacy and many minor conflicts.
Most of the people who voted for him are largely brainwashed and uninformed or misinformed. Often times they're scared or mistrusting rather than hateful.
I don't call them Nazi's, and I sincerely hope we can bring many of them back into reality.
But anyone who has paid attention to his rhetoric, his plans, his platform and still voted for it. Well there's a word for people who supported the Nazi party in Germany but didn't support the war or the ethnic cleansing. Nazis. They were called Nazis.
So you won't call half of your fellow citizens Nazis, but they are, in fact, Nazis? Come on. And no, even Trump is not a Nazi, sorry. A quasi-proto-neo-fascist maybe, but not a Nazi. Deporting people who entered the country illegally is not "ethnic cleansing", let's be serious. Apart from tariffs and border security, Trump has no discernable beliefs, he just wants to people to suck up to him. Again: it's ugly, but it's not "Nazi". You're not being serious with language and I can tell from what you write that you know this already.
So calling minorities "vermin" and making up shit about immigrants eating the pets of US citizens is a "tiny transgression"? No, that is text book nazi propaganda fueled by hate and endorsed by idiots.
He is flirting with the alt-right. And some movements „dabble“ in nazi memorabilia to mention the most flagrant connections to it or his failure to even outright criticize Hitler.
I know that the word Nazi is really triggering but its also true in this case. He is not said to be a Nazi himself but flirting with them. Which is factual and not really discrediting per se.
If the only argument here is: Nazis can only be German and its a historical term that cannot ever be applied to other nations I think that belies how everyone consistently uses language in a not strict academic sense and even then there are academic papers linking him to Nazism and right ideology in general.
And your other insinuation of saying that „anyone who isnt working for a more just and equal society“ would be applicable to Trump, his campaign and the things he platforms falls flat if you look at what his recurring talking points are. Sure let’s use the word Nazi less bit of course in association with Trump it gets used for very clear, explicit parallels. But I don’t think you really care about that if you try to frame everything as tiny transgressions by people who are just not „fighting for a more just and equal society“. If Nazi is too strong a word, what would you propose? And is the use of it logically a valid reason to discredit an opinion? On an open source platform talking about people who have English as a second or third language?
If Nazi is too strong a word, what would you propose?
Something that describes the phenomenon you're talking about. "Nationalist", "national populist", "rightwing populist", "hard-right reactionary", etc etc. There are lots. No, they don't get your blood pumping like "Nazi", but the benefit is that they save you from looking like an ignorant extremist and might also help you be more persuasive.
To quote the incoming administration, "We need a genocide of trans people."
The LGBT community was one of the first groups in the camps. Alongside the immigrants and socialists. You know the famous picture of the Nazis burning books? Those books were records from the German Center for Sexual Wellness, a repository of knowledge about sex and sexuality, and the first known medical facility to treat transgender people using hormone therapy in the 1910s.
Maybe you should learn history before saying something like a know-nothing ignoramus and discrediting whatever you have to say. But go off about "progressive biases." To also quote a Republican complaint, "Reality has a left-leaning bias." Is that what you think, too?
And yet you fail to see the parallels between Trump's rhetoric (one of Hitler's first campaign promises was to build a wall around Germany to keep the job stealing immigrants out), his and his party's stated goals, even his failed coup attempt (the Beer Hall Putsch sound familiar?), and the rise of Hitler's Nazi party. Even the phrase "Make America Great Again" was used by a pro-Nazi American political group during the onset of WW2, who only disbanded after Pearl Harbor because it united the aggression of all sides of the political spectrum in the US.
Your argument basically boils down to "They're not oligarchs unless they come from the oligarchy region of Russia. Otherwise, they're "sparkling billionaires.""
You majored in this in college, while I've learned much of the finer details of the Nazi party because of Republican policies in the past decade. If it steps like a goose, Sig Heils like a goose, and quacks about the purity of Aryan blood, I'm sure as hell not calling it a duck because it's an American goose and not a German one of 1910s breeding stock.
And even in that metaphor, you could argue a direct lineage between the MAGA party and the Nazi party because the incoming president is the son of a real estate tycoon who was a German immigrant whose previous business was refining jet fuel for the Third Reich's Me-262 Schwalbes produced by Messerschmitt.
Yes, I see the parallels. It's a question of degree and context. Your average MAGA hat wearer is comparable to a Nazi in the same way that your average American "democratic socialist" who cheers on the murder of a CEO is comparable to a Stalinist. Both of them are reckless fools before they're actual Nazis and communists. If either of them got their way, bad things would happen which would surprise them as much as anyone else. I think we would do well to turn down the temperature a bit and try to understand each other rather than throw around these big insulting words that clearly we don't really understand.
wow equating Nazis with communists - now there’s a false equivalence
I think we would do well to turn down the temperature a bit and try to understand each other rather than throw around these big insulting words that clearly we don't really understand.
what a great way to turn down the temperature! being condescending… good work bud
perhaps take a look at the comment votes once in a while and do some self-reflection on your communication style, if not the correctness of your statements and either say: sorry, i’m clearly miscommunicating, or sorry you’re right
perhaps take a look at the comment votes once in a while and do some self-reflection on your communication style, if not the correctness of your statements and either say: sorry, i’m clearly miscommunicating, or sorry you’re right
So, it turns out there are people here who believe that comment votes somehow track truth, or at least something other than the prejudices and confirmation bias of those doing the voting.
The naivety is sad enough (internet forums have existed for 30 years - have we learned nothing?). But it's worse than that, because it suggests that you would put aside your reasoned views, your values even, in order to fit in with whatever the mob around you thinks. No democracy can work if everyone does this. Let's hope you're an exception.
Apologies for the condescension but there was no alternative here.
Your analogy is actually very apt because at the height of their power, the Nazi party made up a whopping 15% of the German population, IIRC.
It doesn't take a lot of crazies to end with a death count for a minority group so high that they only passed their pre-WW2 population levels about 15 years ago. It merely takes the indifference or implicit support of the majority. So many Americans are either one issue voters or indifferent because their rights aren't up for debate every 4 years that the political compass has swung so extreme that in the first 6 months of (I think) 2022, there were more anti-trans bills proposed than there were days in the year at that point. I did the math, and it came out to roughly 1.2 anti-trans bills per day. The Nazis didn't start with the gas chambers. They started with prisons and internment camps for political prisoners, LGBT people, immigrants, and anyone else they deemed "undesirable," inspired by America's treatment of the indigenous peoples.
If we're willing to call the people of Germany in WW2 Nazis or Nazi sympathizers, then we can call the "I'm a Republican, I vote for the nominee" crowd that I've known my entire life and the indifferent silent majority Nazi sympathizers as well, and the MAGA crowd that call for banning trans people from public spaces and to deport immigrants Nazis. They hold the same values about fascism and white supremacy, and many even wear the same outfits and fly the same flags as Nazi Germany. They've been marching in the streets since Trump's first campaign. And we haven't even talked about the white supremacist terrorist groups and militias. The FBI spends more than 50% of their time putting down white supremacist groups.
We have been marching down the exact same path as 1910s Germany for years, and we need to call it out. Even Hitler referred to the US as the sisterland across the ocean who shared his values in Mein Kampf. In any other country, the KKK would be considered a terrorist group. Here, they're a political activist group who almost got one of their leaders elected to a fairly major government position.
The Democrats have spent 50 years "reaching across the aisle." How'd that go for them in this past election? The country seems to have slipped ever further towards a Fourth Reich to me. When Republicans came out in support of Harris in swing states, she lost a large percentage of independent voters in those states - like 5% of the total voters in each state. There's no understanding to be had with white supremacists and fascists. All they want is for people like me to die.
[...] to compare someone who isn't "fighting for a more just and equal society" to a "Nazi" just makes you look like a know-nothing ignoramus.
(emphasis mine)
What an interesting way to describe the technocratic class that is aligning themselves with Trump. Are you up for a promotion at a FAANG, maybe? For recently rolling back some DEI policies perhaps?
Are you trying to be wrong on every thread about this you post in? To follow up on @EldritchFeminity point about the LGBT community, one of the other groups first targeted by the Nazi's were the disabled. Trump is on record as stating (as per his nephew) that disabled people should 'just die' and has openly mocked disabled people. His views are so close to 1930s/40s era Nazism as to make no real difference.
Brother we've been arming and supporting a full-on ethnic extermination and bombing anyone who tries to stop it for over a year now. We're past flirting with fascism, we've bought a dog and moved onto a studio apartment with fascism. Fascism is making us coffee and thinking about opening an Etsy store to sell all the gold tooth fillings.
He specifically started talking about American party politics, unprompted, making sweeping statements about both Democrats and Republicans. NOW he wants to blame us for...being concerned with his views on American party politics? Dude. Get real.
Saying stupid shit now and then is forgivable, but not if you take it in as the new nucleus of your public image. Why do so many public figures have this compulsion to double down combatively?
I can't be the only one who struggled to read that, and for general accessibility purposes since I'm already here:
Image ID:
andy1011000 Proton CEO posted:
"People honestly seem to forget that I live in Switzerland, where Republican/Democrat doesn't mean anything, and Trump isn't even on our ballot to be voted for..."
Onyx376. replied:
"The point is that fighting for a more just and equal society is not just about fighting for the fundamental right to privacy but also for all other fundamental rights, including individual rights and life. When you, as the CEO of a company that starts from these principles, nod positively to whatever action a political figure like Trump, who is known for always flagrantly putting his private interests ahead of those of his own nation, makes speeches about eliminating minorities, hurting their rights as citizens and flirting with Nazi movements, it is understandable that members of the privacy community are disappointed as this reveals a little about who is being the face of a company that should follow contrary principles. But now we really know what "freedom" means to you."
It renders fine, it's just a pain to read due the wide aspect ratio. Either it's too small or you have to scroll horizontal for reach line, or you have to flip your phone. None of it it is optimal.
Now to reply to the post itself, I think this sums it up:
Though the sad truth is that almost every single product or service we use are owned and run by people with similar opinions, it is literally the nature of the capitalist beast, it's how it function, and why it will always decay in to fascism - because those with the power and the money (not just those at the very very top, but several levels bellow them, too, like this guy) will always and forever care solely about maintaining it and creating more for themselves, that's it. And to do that, they have to side with whichever dictator-du-jour benefits them the most.
I use a couple of free proton products, in the same way I still use a couple of free google products, it sucks, but in all honesty I just have bigger things on my plate to deal with right now than finding (and vetting, and keeping up with) new, and ethical, providers for all of the services I use run and owned by evil companies, so I'm not putting too much energy in to it at the moment (but I am taking notice, it's important to remain alert to the spread of fascism despite all of the above).
But remember - there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Now to reply to the post itself, I think this sums it up:
Though the sad truth is that almost every single product or service we use are owned and run by people with similar opinions, it is literally the nature of the capitalist beast, it's how it function, and why it will always decay in to fascism - because those with the power and the money (not just those at the very very top, but several levels bellow them, too, like this guy) will always and forever care solely about maintaining it and creating more for themselves, that's it. And to do that, they have to side with whichever dictator-du-jour benefits them the most.
Remember - there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and this is only one of the reasons why.
Why would anyone believe the Democrats are not also Nazis? They just spearheaded a live-streamed genocide, and bypassed a law banning sending arms to Nazis so that they could send them billions in arms.
Both parties are Nazis. Both must be stopped. Stop playing this stupid game where they make you fight over which Nazi to follow.
No it is not 🙁 When you make a wild statement you have to prove it. You cannot just say random things then call a troll anyone that tries to understand
I dont have to prove shit to you and you aren't trying to understand. If you wanted to understand that trump is a fascist or Kamala isn't any any way a communist, you can find PILES of jourlism and academic works discussing those topics - you just have to leave the right-wing news media bubble.
Your entitlement to my time and this space as a place where you can demand proof for basic political concepts is the absolute definition of sealioning.
When did I say anything about Kamala being a communist? You're the one stating facts you cannot prove, I never stated such thing (since it's obviously false).
Your biased opinion is not a "basic politcal concept". And I doubt there is any reliable journal that would use those simplistic antagonizing views.
What makes you think I would look at right wing news media shit? I wouldn't be here lol. You need to understand that not agreeing with you is different than being fascist and that being fascist is different than being nazi, maybe you should learn about basic political concepts.
Anyway, asking for source for a random claim is not entitlement but legitimate behavior and arguing against it is arguing in favour of disinformation.
You know, I take Andy Yen's comment seriously, and think it's a good rebuttal. Swiss industry and political leaders would never collaborate with fascists for the sake of convenience or trying to ride the prevailing political winds... Every student of history knows that!
The motherfucker lives in Switzerland and he supports Putin's Sock Puppet. Fuck Andy. The USA will regress further away from the Swiss standard of living, which is what the USA should be striving for.
The term “Nazi” has been overused so much, especially in US [identity] politics, that it’s losing (or has already lost) its meaning. When are we going to start calling elevator farts “genocide” and “nazism”? 🤷🏻♂️
If the outrage is based on the screenshot of the comment above, I’d say that this is a typical example of “Swiss neutrality” with a touch of “I don’t give a flying f*ck about US politics because I don’t live in the US.” I don’t see how that makes you a nazi??
I seem to remember that Switzerland has a history of profiting from their relationships with Nazi's. Thus they might not be a good source of advice as to what to do about Nazi's.
It's dumb to call Trump a nazi and the populist wing of the Republican party nazis.
It's not even clever at this point, maybe it was edgy and transgressive like 7 years ago.
The reason it's dumb is that you are wasting all of your powerful language and you will have no more if things get worse. Boy who cried wolf. Just like people did to racist which used to carry great power and now is basically meaningless as a powerful descriptor.
It’s not even clever at this point, maybe it was edgy and transgressive like 7 years ago.
Are you really this childish that you genuinely think the only reason people might suggest Trump is a fascist is because it was "edgy and transgressive"? Not the fascist rhetoric, increasingly fascist policy and the various fascists he's willing to work with and support?
Nazism is a very small subset of fascism, they are not equivalent. Nazi also carries VERY heavy baggage which is inapplicable to Trump. Use the right terms.
Hey guys, look at this dipshit, drawing irrelevant distinctions and pointlessly trying to police other peoples language because they think the only reason others would use those terms is because they're "edgy and transgressive".
Tell me, where on the fascism to nazism meter is mass deportations, muslim bans, endorsing far right militias, supporting running over protestors, palling around with white supremacists, and seeking to eradicate trans people from public life? Are we at .49? or is it more like .76? My readings seems to be off. Just so I know I'm not using the incorrect terms so some moron from .world doesn't get mad and try to incessantly police terms on the internet.
Nazism is a very small subset of fascism, they are not equivalent. Nazi also carries VERY heavy baggage which is inapplicable to Trump. Use the right terms.
Can't tell if you're defending trump or gatekeeping nazism.
I'm sorry but what? This is really weird logic as language and words aren't required to follow some linear path of severity. People call the GOP, Trump and the like Nazis because... they fit the definition of Nazis, actual card carrying Nazis support them by a significant majority. (Yeah yeah I know there is the odd one here or there that doesn't)
If it walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi and engages in Nazi tactics, behaviors etc. Then it can be called a Nazi. You don't reserve your language so that you have some end point to progress to.
It's also very weird to use the boy who cried wolf when the whole point of that story is that you don't call something that which it isn't for fear that when the real thing comes along no one will believe you as that would imply that they are in fact not Nazis. Which would only be true in the most technical of sense (As in they are not of the Nazi party of Germany) but by most dictionary definition the word fits.
Lastly, what the hell are you even talking about "edgy"? Do you think people are calling them Nazis to be edgy? Because that's ridiculous and quite frankly your entire comment screams of someone trying to defend them through deflection.
Sounds like the CEO of proton doesnt understand the basic privacy concerns for the US VPN market. He should really look that up someday-- theres money to be made in the Us market if he cared enough.
Americans just now finding out what has always been in place. Vpn from Switzerland won't save you - they will share our data if it comes to us needing access to it. And if proton refuses - it would have been shut down already like tiktok
Considering how he runs a business whose goal is to capture the privacy crowd and how a large portion of the privacy crowd is made up of those "Libertarian" tech-bro types, it might be more than just "no clue about American politics", especially since he's also doing stuff like promoting Bitcoin through Proton Wallet which is also popular among "Libertarian" tech-bro types, and the article used for marketing that both-sidesed the problems the "left" vs "right" experience and equated the Democrats with the "left", which is popular among "Libertarian" tech-bro types as well. The 88 in his Reddit username is also suspect regardless of him claiming that it's there because it's his birth year. People who know how to operate a business usually aren't doing it out of stupidity, so I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this, especially since the entire platform depends on trusting that they aren't doing anything shady.
Earlier this week, Donald Trump won a stunning election victory that will put him in charge of the world's most powerful mass surveillance infrastructure.
No he had plenty of time to educate himself but instead doubled and tripled down. Also his username ends in 88 which has been the most unsubtle Nazi dog whistle since the invention of usernames and the internet.
You honestly think that’s what he was going for? Someone who grew up in a culture pretty heavily insulated from that but steeped in “former” Nazi ties?
I think he’s more likely fascist than a Nazi, given the differentiator being the racial purity part. He lives and works in Switzerland, but was born in Taiwan and educated in the US.
This needs to be pinned at the top: only a Nazi goes out of their way to put an 88 in their username. He thinks he’s clever by putting it in binary so people don’t immediately call him out. Nazis get off on that kind of “clever” dogwhistle.
Maybe you shouldn't be doing that. Maybe your birthday is not so special that you should use it when it's a well and widely known symbol of Nazism. Frankly it's a little hard for me to buy these days.
When was he born? Not everyone knows all the "secret" signs for stuff. How 18 is A.H or how 81 is H.A (Hells Angels) 1% biker clubs have surprisingly much of such codes. 8 is also the number of Khorne in the Warhammer fantasy/sci-fi setting. And before we start with that there are surprisingly few Nazis who play, but the few are very vocal.
Years ago I saw a guy in a crocery store in Norway wearing a "Combat18 Böhmen" hoodie. Buying ingredients for tex-mex taco incidentally. And when I pointed him out to my wife, she said that you are probably the only one in here to know this, and spot him for what he is.
So if Andy was born in 1988 I hope it's why he has 88 in his username.
When was he born? Not everyone knows all the “secret” signs for stuff.
I don't care when he was born. Who puts their birth year in their username? "Here, internet. Here's one less piece of information you need to steal my identity!"
No. "ItS mY bIrF YeEr" is just what nazi shit says when they get called out on being nazi shit.
Look, I can't comment on the significance of binary 88 in this instance with any confidence, but a lot of people use their birth year in their username.
Is it stupid? Absolutely, alongside demonstrating a total lack of any creativity whatsoever. But it's 100% a thing.
Edit: Lol, will also note the first 'people also search' suggestion coming up when Googling Andy Yen is "When was Andy Yen born", and in the 5 seconds of drunken searching I still haven't seen a birth date.
Look, I can’t comment on the significance of binary 88 in this instance with any confidence, but a lot of people use their birth year in their username.
A lot of people who like trump were coincidentally totally born in 1988.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that people don't put 88 as a clear dog whistle to white supremacists/general Nazi bullshit. This is more to the comment "who puts their birth year in their username?" bit specifically. The answer is a lot of people.
I also am not excusing Yen for his pro-Trump comments - that was fucking bullshit and I'm deeply disappointed - I'm just saying the YOB thing is a thing, but also coincidentally I also can't seem to find a source to prove if he's also doing the YOB thing or something else.
Note to self: Limit Lemmy to 3 beers max, particularly where Trumpian bullshit is involved. And thank god for autocorrect. Apologies, I really should not be interneting right now.
To be clear, I’m not arguing that people don’t put 88 as a clear dog whistle to white supremacists/general Nazi bullshit.
To be clear, anyone who supports trump is already nazi-adjacent enough to get no benefit of the doubt, and I don't buy the "It's my birth year" shit from any of them. Even if they were born in 1988, that's not the reason 88 is in their username.
I also don't believe that someone whose entire personality centers around cannabis has "420" in their username because they were born on April 20th. I don't believe that some fratboy who is constantly making horny comments has "69" in his username because he was born on June 9th, either.
Yes, I understood that. I’d be more willing to be convinced in the 420 case, because the stakes are so low. Unlike being a Nazi, nobody gets punched in the face for being a stoner.
Unlike being a Nazi, nobody gets punched in the face for being a stoner.
Police have a long history of punching stoners in the face and worse. If you don't want to get called a nazi, don't do nazi shit with an 88 in your username.
Maybe now, in our stupid time, folks use phone numbers for identity, some stupid handle (or just their actual name) and then post a lot of text, photos and such, totally less harmful for their privacy than their birth year. And no birth year
But in the olden days it was the main solution to "such user already exists" problem, combined with things like 'xXx' and '+0+' on both sides or something.
Yes, a public figure, whose data can be discovered in few minutes, considers his birth year a secret. Also nobody ever used the birth year in their username on the internet.
Also ANDY = 1 + 14 + 4 + 25 = 44, which is half of 88 and contains 14, another nazy symbol. He is trying to pass it off as his name, but who uses their name on the internet? I will check the cabala now, because I am sure there is more.
God, I hope Nick Fury is already grouping the avengers, because Hydra is really making a move here.
If trump did a good thing in a very narrow context you can't say it, otherwise you are a Nazi? OK, this is madness. Also, it's not "sitting there for everyone to see" because it's binary. You also realize that people have different cultural references right? Maybe it's not your responsibility to compute the cabala horoscope for everything you do, and assume that people will be able to use at least the 2% of the brain and for example distinguish from a bold Nazi supporter with 88 tattooed and a guy born in 88 who appends 88 to his username (in a nerd way). But apparently not.
He created an account to speak personally and not from the proton account he uses before. Anyway, "he knew what he was doing" is conspiracy theory again.
Also, it’s not “sitting there for everyone to see” because it’s binary.
Yes, obfuscating it makes it better!
Maybe it’s not your responsibility to compute the cabala horoscope for everything you do, and assume that people will be able to use at least the 2% of the brain and for example distinguish from a bold Nazi supporter with 88 tattooed and a guy born in 88 who appends 88 to his username (in a nerd way). But apparently not.
He supported trump with 88 in his username.
He created an account to speak personally and not from the proton account he uses before.
And he didn't need to put 88 in there, or obfuscate it. And I'm increasingly certain that you're freaking out and defending him for it because you're happy that your political party is represented.
He supported Trump's pick. I know reality makes little difference for you, but still. Also yes, he put 88 in his username, which is not a crime, especially for a Taiwanese guy born in 88 lmao.
The sole fact we are even discussing this is just absurd. Absurd. It's 5g gives cancer absurd. It's vaccine give autism absurd.
And I'm increasingly certain that you're freaking out and defending him for it because you're happy that your political party is represented.
Correct, because as non US citizen communist republicans are my party. In fact, anybody who disagrees with you is secretly a republican, and even more secret a Nazi, there is no other reason to disagree with you, absolutely. In fact, sudneo has "south" in it, and "o" at the end, what do you get it you put "o" south of "o"? 8, and that's half of 88. Considering there is also "n" in it, and that's 14, I think it's quite clear that I am also a Nazi, trying to cover my Nazi colleague Andy. Heil Hydra.
You are just a maga with slightly different moral values. Still a cultist fanatic on a witch hunt that threw reason and reality out of the window.
Yes, I am defending his ability to positively judge Trump's pick. And I am not defending the choice of 88. I believe it's not needed because the accusation is absurd.
No, it's not a crime to be a nazi in the US. I hope it is in your country.
It actually is, but - believe it or not - people born in 88 don't get arrested every time they add their birth date to a document.
I believe you.
I know you do. You would believe anything that helps you make sense of a complex world with a simple explanation: good vs evil. You are good, so anybody who disagrees with you is automatically evil. That's it, no more wasting time understanding or thinking, straight to conclusion , always.
As I said, you are a cultist. You are exactly the same as MAGA people, just with slightly different moral values. You think to be fighting Nazism like those people are fighting immigrants ruining their country or stuff like that.
You are doing great buddy, now you got me, so absolutely, by any means, do not try to reflect on the fact you are projecting your culture on a Taiwanese person. Do not reflect on what's the likelihood a normal guy, with a PhD in physics who built a great company that protects millions of people is actually a Nazi, and decides to show it because why not. Absolutely, don't reflect on this! Sit on your absolutely simplicistic assumption, because this reinforces all your previous beliefs, and makes the world a much simpler place!
You are good, so anybody who disagrees with you is automatically evil.
Nonsense. People of good conscience can disagree in good faith. People who praise trump and have 88 in their usernames are not people of good conscience, and I don't think you're defending him in good faith.
do not try to reflect on the fact you are projecting your culture on a Taiwanese person
They said it on an English language forum in English about an American president-elect. The account was two days old. If his judgement is that shitty here, it's shitty everywhere.
Do not reflect on what’s the likelihood a normal guy, with a PhD in physics
Yeah, whoever heard of a PhD being a nazi?
who built a great company that protects millions of people is actually a Nazi, and decides to show it because why not.
Whoever heard of a techbro having nazi sympathies?
Sit on your absolutely simplicistic assumption, because this reinforces all your previous beliefs, and makes the world a much simpler place!
Nazis are shit. That's simplistic. And true. And it offends you deeply.
People who praise trump and have 88 in their usernames are not people of good conscience, and I don't think you're defending him in good faith.
Do you realise that this is a tautology? People who accuse people of being Nazis without concrete evidence and against much better and simpler explanation are not in good faith.
If his judgement is that shitty here, it's shitty everywhere.
Or maybe he used his own judgment which is based on his own cultural background. But obviously this is unacceptable, how dares? Everyone knows that everyone should behave and say things that need to conform first and foremost to the sensibility of Americans. Only after they can express their being or their culture.
Whoever heard of a techbro having nazi sympathies?
He doesn't even fit in the techbro definition. One again you just push air through your (virtual) mouth. He has a higher education (most techbro don't), he doesn't work with big tech (most do), he specifically ceded control of his company to a nonprofit (guess), his company inherently has a technical and political stance opposite to what tech bros did in the last 2 decades.
Nazis are shit. That's simplistic. And true. And it offends you deeply.
That's not the assumption. The assumption is that "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi". Everyone (most) agrees that Nazis are shit.
Also don't assume my thought, stick to what I say. This is once again a dishonest way to conduct a conversation and it's borderline slander.
Do you realise that this is a tautology? People who accuse people of being Nazis without concrete evidence
I didn't put the 88 in his username. I didn't force him to praise trump.
Or maybe he used his own judgment which is based on his own cultural background.
Stop hiding behind his cultural background just because it's convenient for you.
Everyone knows that everyone should behave and say things that need to conform first and foremost to the sensibility of Americans.
If he's talking to Americans and already stuck his foot in his mouth, he should have run this through his company's PR department before making a username with 88 in it.
The assumption is that “everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi”.
That's your deliberate mischaracterization of anyone who disagrees with nazis.
I wonder if you can even admit that both nazis and trump are shit.
I didn’t put the 88 in his username. I didn’t force him to praise trump.
JFC you have trouble even understanding a sentence. Do you know what a tautology is? I will explain to you, and I am doing this for free as a patch to what I can only assume was a bad education system.
The guy is X (no proof)
Every X is in bad faith and therefore cannot discuss with or about them.
It's a sentence that is always true and can't be proven false, because that would be discussing it.
I am not contesting he did put 88 in the username, I am contesting that it has the meaning you attribute to him arbitrarily, and based on which you draw your conclusion.
Stop hiding behind his cultural background just because it’s convenient for you.
Hiding? It's a better, simpler, more logical explanation that he said himself. It's not even needed, because a person could have million personal reasons to do that, but in this case this is it. If it's not convenient for your reality, deal with it.
If he’s talking to Americans and already stuck his foot in his mouth, he should have run this through his company’s PR department before making a username with 88 in it.
This is a completely different argument. One I might agree with. But "missed ambiguous message" is different from "be a nazi".
That’s your deliberate mischaracterization of anyone who disagrees with nazis.
Another tautology.
I wonder if you can even admit that both nazis and trump are shit.
Of course I do. My great grandmother got killed by nazis mf. Trump isolationist position on Nato can fuck Ukraine, where my wife is from, and endanger me too. Fuck your gothchas and assumptions. With love.
Tbf I’ve put my birth year in my username before when I was a kid who knew next to nothing about privacy. I’ve seen other people do this too. So it’s not totally implausible. But yeah it is a bad look for Andy regardless.
Tbf I’ve put my birth year in my username before when I was a kid who knew next to nothing about privacy. I’ve seen other people do this too. So it’s not totally implausible.
It's one thing when you're a naive kid or a clueless boomer. It's quite another when you're the ceo of a privacy-focused company.
He's my generation. That's what we did in the dawn of the internet when web email was new and shit. Everybody has "coolname87" "dogshit89", "hipguy88" as their username. It's not such a wild idea.
He's younger than me, but there was a broad age range that all caught the internet around the same time. I'm aware that this is how it was once done. Usernames are longer now, allowing for greater creativity.
And this goober still uses his first name and an obfuscated 2 digit number? Yeah, he didn't choose it because it's his birth year.
Yeah, birth years are super common in usernames (and password, don't use it there). Bob Smith finds his preferred username is taken so becomes BobSmith79 or BobSmith88 or whatever because it's easy an easy enough variation to remember.
You can find patterns/relations in almost anything if you reach for something, kinda like the "six degrees of separation" thing even if there's a more reasonable answer
2) amateur radio romantic message (apparently older than Nazis, don't ask me how I know, but it has to do with being used in that, and not HH, meaning in one Nazi song ; felt strange for me, until I've just read that it was a telegraph thing before radio)
3) two eternity symbols turned (not those wheely ones)
4) as people have mentioned, common as a lucky number in certain parts of the globe
5) people can also be born on 8 August
6) had that number on some item memorable for him (I had 72 in plenty of my nicknames, I can promise you it's not about 72 virgins or 72 names of god and I'm not Muslim, I just had a yellow t-shirt with that number when I was a kid).
The funny part is that points #2 and #4 are probably known to him, tech company and all.
This is at the same time: - a novax level conspiracy - a completely idotic assumption that not only doesn't stand Occam's razor, but not even basic common sense. - racist and showing a colonial mindset, clearly prioritising what is relevant in YOUR culture (superior, more important), compared to what is relevant in that person's culture.
Please can someone tell me how this attitude is fundamentally different from people who are in other cults (maga, novax, etc.)?
A wise man once told me, don't mess with politics. The moment you show stance (which usually isn't beneficial), you cut off options from yourself and endanger customer relationship.
Proton should just do business as usual, without that single post things would probably be just fine.
They showed political stances all the time when it comes to privacy and antitrust, just look at their blog. Why wouldn't they? What they do is also political, as a company.
I think that's a different thing. That is a political stance but it's not picking sides. People who want to organise Nazi rallys and people who need to communicate without getting attacked by Nazis both have reasons to use encrypted email. When you pick one over the other, you've cut the size of your userbase.
I don't think they picked in this case either. Like they didn't when they cooperated with dem senators in the past. They are cooperating or praising whichever side advances policies that can ultimately help privacy.
That was probably their thought too. However, they have misjudged the Lemmy (and I think reddit) population on this, and I would argue that worse than the initial comment is the absolute lack of recognition (in follow up comments) that what they said could be taken as an endorsement of a government that is trying to actively harm a significant portion of the US Proton users.
I think he actually acknowledged that fact in later comments. Anyway, this is a far smaller sin than all the stuff people are creatively accusing him of.
Apparently now he is a Nazi, and I think this case was the last nail in the coffin for me to think that political discourse can exist.
If it helps, most people don't follow politics at all. And their votes are based on very little knowledge of what they are voting for.
I'm still a believer that if you put people in a room together instead of online, you'd get both sides of the aisle agreeing on 95% of things, once each side had a chance to explain their viewpoint (and made sure google was available to settle most disputes).
That's not the point. A neutral stance VPN has all the anti-Nazis as customers, and all the Nazis. I would prefer anti-Nazi as well but I get that that a neutral stance means they can have more customers, something they need for economy of scale.
If they had stated their anti-trump stance then the freeze peach lemmy instances would probably have all their Nazis cancelling their proton subscriptions.
Honestly I hope all the cancellations on our side aren't balanced by a bunch of Nazis signing up after seeing the comments.
I don't think I quite get what the benefit is to them of supporting Trump's pick. What was it he was hoping to gain, not from the pick but from his comment?
What benefit do all those who have kissed trump's ring thus far get? All I know is that I'm not about to trust my privacy to someone with 88 in their username. I only signed up for proton last month because of trump. I'll be leaving for another service for the same reason.
The reality is that being "anti-Nazi" is also a neutral stand. This is in the terms of service of Proton:
Unauthorized activities include, but are not limited to:
[...] 4. Harassing, abusing, insulting, harming, defaming, slandering, disparaging, intimidating or discriminating against someone based on gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, race, age, nationality or disability;
I don't think Proton is ok with Nazis, but I feel people wanted them to be also "anti-Trump", even if Trump does something to benefit privacy (which, as you hinted, is a neutral action that also benefits anti-Nazis).
My guess is that it's a neo-Nazi thing, so his promoting right-wing American politics (his largest userbase) is probably intentional and not just him being stupid
That's not context, that's a superficial observation. Zuck kissed the ring by changing Facebook policy to align with trump/musk posture on "free speech", Andy said he likes the antitrust pick. They are completely different things.
Not only is 88 considered auspicious in his native culture, he was also born in 1988. Normally, yes, be wary of the 88 dog whistle, but without further evidence it looks like a nothing-burger in this case.
As swiss person I have to meet and talk to this guy, he can not be that stupid!
We definitely have something like the republicans party, it is called SVP (Schweizerische Volkspartei). SVP uses exactly the same tactics as republicans, like anti “woke”, anti regulation, anti common media, pro hate-speech(“anti censorship”), etc.
We just not have a single party to counter it, like democrats, but like 10 parties with little nuances.
We have some small parties besides SVP “on the republican site” but those tend to be irrelevant. Maybe, the anti corona party has a some relevance, still, but I guess their power is sinking.
I personally support the pirate party, which mainly stands for privacy, no matter if left or right, but the party it self is leading to the left (democratic) side.
At least, that is how I understand our situation here.
That's fascinating that you have so many parties. Do parties not have a lot of power at the "federal" level? Also curious if you have coalitions between similarly aligned parties!
They do have power. But it is split between around 4-5 bigger parties. Our federal council (similar to the President uf the US) is split into 7 persons, where the biggest parties get one or to seats. Like the mentioned SVP has "only" 2 seats and next big party the social Democrats have 2 seats as well.
What's nice in our system(in my opinion), there is no "The winner takes it all". Because our federal government is split between alot of parties, not one can "rule" alone. For every thing the want to pass, they need the support of multiple parties.
I wouldn't say we have ruling coalitions like you see in germany, but they do work-together if they have same goal.
This is how parliamentary governments work, they figured out how to resolve the bug in the US system that always tends towards two major parties. However the two-party system, so I've read, is actually a tad bit more resistant to the fascism bug, as parliamentary systems can have outright fascist parties winning a minority of the vote eventually grow big enough to take over and end the system entirely.
We have two “Räte“ like groups that write the laws depending on the constitution (they give new laws back and forth until an agreement is found, and after agreement there can be a referendum made with enough signatures from the people that are allowed to vote, which then leads to a vote where the people who are allowed to vote have to confirm the new law). One of these “Rat” is a Voting where all people allow to vote choose which party gets how much seats in this “Rat” and in the same voting you choose people to place on this seats. (It is a bit complicated and here at the choosing of seats. Partys can work together and “combine lists” meaning that they collect seats together and split it up after). In the other “Rat” there are a defined number of people per Kanton (the states of switzerland) and those are chosen by each Kanton in their own way. Kantons are relatively free on how to organise their government, but most have a similar mechanism as what is done in federal level.
The Bundesrat (aka 7 presidents of switzerland) are chosen by the people in the Rat (I would have to check if both Rat get to say something, or if it is only the one with the lists). We have some unwritten laws in choosing the 7 persons in the Bundesrat. The general consensus is, that we have to ensure most diversity possible (political, gender, and all the other things), but of course, here we have discussions all the time as well.
I am sure he is very smart about a lot of things. Unfortunately US politics are not one of those things. I also suspect he is not that good at business considering he just alienated a lot of his customers.
This tweet happened right after trump picked for the antitrust position. The "time" is completely logical, the "place" is a tweet and the manner is a short statement supporting that pick. Also proton is a US company, so it doesn't have the same reason to "bend the knee" as other US big tech are doing.
So it's not that I am ignoring context, I genuinely don't see relation. He praised something that he pushes for years, he did not suddenly switch to "free speech" like Zuck.
The hypocrisy of many calling Trump a Nazi is mind boggling.
As far as I can tell Trump can only be deemed a Nazi by association - he's not been going around spouting stuff about people's races making them superior or inferior to others like an ethno-Fascist and instead he's been mostly using traditional Fascist dog whistles (I.e. about the superiority of the Nation), but since he has indeed cultivated the support of neo-nazis and other ethno-Fascists in the US, he's associating with Nazis.
The hypocrisy comes because the most Nazi ideology around right now is Zionism - they're ethno-Fascists, claiming to represent a race, going on and on about the superiority of their race (calling it "the chose people") whilst being overtly racist about Arabs in general and even more so Palestinians who they call "human animals", i.e. subhumans whis is literally untermenschen - and, even more extreme, they're mass murdering them right now by the hundreds of thousands.
Anybody who here and now calls Trump a Nazi due to his association with ethno-Fascists but has previously been defending Biden, Harris and most of the Democrat party as not being Nazis all the while they were actively supporting with weapons the present day Nazis who were actively engaged in a genocide along racial lines, is a hypocrite.
Ditto anybody going around criticizing people who chose to neither vote Democrat nor Republican: it is absolutely understandable that when people only have the choice between two sets of Nazis, many chose "neither". After all, if one is a Nazi by supporting Nazis, then the Republicans supporting of Nazis makes them Nazis and giving support to the Nazis-Republicans (for example by voting for them) makes one a Nazi and exactly in the same way the Democrats supporting the present day Nazis makes them Nazis, so supporting Nazi-Democrats makes one a Nazi - anybody who does indeed believe people can become "Nazi by association" land does not want to be a Nazi, would refuse to vote for either Nazi-by-association party.
I truly respect those with the genuine principles and ideological consistency of calling both main American parties Nazis (as I said, if one thinks associated with Nazi = Nazi, then logically they are both Nazis) or at least Nazi-supporting, because they are.
It's only the political tribalists for whom one group of Nazi-supporters are Nazis but the other group of Nazi-supporters are not Nazis because the former is "them" and the other is "us" who are despicable hypocrites.
Nazis, however, are ethno-Fascists, a far worse kind of Fascist, whose ideology is anchored on racial supremacy and who are far more prone to extreme violence.
Although traditional Fascists are violent, they don't just go around mass murdering people because of their ethnicity, whilst ethno-Fascists most definitely do.
In the present day the biggest and most powerful group of ethno-Fascists - i.e. the present day Nazis - are Zionists, though there are also white supremacists who are also ethno-Fascists (hence also present day Nazis) even if their violent ethnic cleansing acts are not yet to the level of Zionists and they have different lists of superior and inferior races.
So if one genuinely believes that people can be deemed Nazis by associating with Nazis (specifically Nazi-like groups, since the National Socialist Party Of The German Worker doesn't exist anymore, so there aren't strictly speaking any Nazis anymore), then one must believe that by association Trump and most of their party are Nazis because of supporting both Zionists (whilst they are engaged in genocide-level ethnic cleansing, no less) and white supremacists, AND so are Biden, Harris and most of their party for supporting Zionists.
If on the other hand one believes people can only be deemed a Nazi if they espouse an ideology of racial supremacy and murderous expulsion or annihilation of one or more races they see as sub-human ("human animals", "untermenschen") - i.e. ethno-Fascism - then Trump is not a Nazi, "just" a traditional Fascist (i.e. Mussolini rather than Hitler) and by the same logic Biden and Harris are not Nazis.
Those people who use one definition of what makes one a Nazi for Trump and a different one for the Democrat leadership, are hypocrites.
Biden Harris and the DNC is actually a facist “controlled opposition” party. The absolute lockstep they move with Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin is textbook entanglement of military corporate hegemonic facism. I have zero problems calling the RNC the nu Nazi party and the DNC as the “polite” nazi party. Lowkey I feel like we need a new “anti-monopoly” political party if anything good is gonna happen in the next 30 years
It's the hypocrisy of using Nazi as a partisan political insult (all the while ignoring all the support going on for the real modern day Nazis in one's own party) that I find disgusting.
That is an absolutely valid take (assuming you really believe the principle rather than merely parroting the slogan), which would mean that Trump, most of the Republicans, Biden, Harris and most of the Democrats are Nazis, as are anybody who supports them in any way form or shape including with a vote, because all are "sitting wit h Nazis" by supportingnthem, which explains why some people simply refused to vote for either party (as they didn't want support Nazis).
You have my total respect if you genuinely believe that as a principle and hence apply it equally to all 11 people sitting on that table with the Nazi.
If however you do not apply that rule equally to all 11 people, and say that only some (Trump) are Nazis for sitting down with modern day Nazis whilst others (Biden) are not Nazis for sitting down with modern day Nazis, then you're just a hypocrite using the word Nazi as a slogan.
Sadly a lot of people here are just jumping on the "let's call Trump a Nazi" bandwagon and do not apply the same rule that justifies caling Trump a Nazi, to those in their own party (which the rule would deem as Nazi since they too wilfully "sit with Nazis") or accept that many people did not vote for their party or the other party exactly because they sawnthosnwhonsupport modern day Nazis as being themselves Nazis (exaxtly as per the sentence you quoted) and hence refuse to not support such Nazis.
You seem to forget that the Democrats ran against Trump. The extent to which they willingly "sat down with" him is the extent to which they were obligated. They weren't blithely enjoying his company at the table, they were arguing with him at it.
I suspect you know the difference and that you're arguing in bad faith.
You're using circular logic or missing my point entirely.
The Democrat leadership sat with Nazis because they support Zionists, who are the biggest group around promoting racial supremacy and ethnic cleansing, and even commiting a Genocide along ethnic lines, all of which are ethno-Fascist ideas, the same kind of ideology as Nazis.
Trump and the Rest of the Republicans sat with Nazis because they too support Zionist as well assupporting white supremacists (a smaller group of Nazis than Zionists and who at the moment aren't commiting Genocide, but who also have a racial supremacy and ethnic cleansing ideology, same as the Zionists and the original Nazis)
As far as I know, Trump himself has never defended racial supremacy or ethnic cleansing, so he is not directly a Nazi. However he definitely seats with Nazis, as does Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
It has nothing to do with seating with each other since it's perfectly possible for opposing groups to both be Nazis because they both support racials supremacist ideas and ethnic cleansing or support people who support those ideas.
If sitting with Nazis makes one a Nazi then everybody who supports Zionists, white supremacists or any other kind of extreme racist political movement which believes in their own racial supremacy and sees it as a reason to violently expel or eliminate people of ethnic groups they see as inferior, is a Nazi, which would means Trump, the Republicans, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and the Democrats are Nazis since they've been sitting with those who follow ideologies like Nazism.
As far as I can tell Trump can only be deemed a Nazi by association - he’s not been going around spouting stuff about people’s races making them superior or inferior to others like an ethno-Fascist
That's traditional Fascism, which is all about the nation.
Nazism would be "Latinos have been poisoning our White blood", a whole different ball game and far, far more prone to extreme violence in the form of things like ethnic cleansing.
If you want to see how present day Nazi ideology manifests itself, look at Zionists: they claim to represent an ethnicity, that their ethnicity are a superior people ("the chosen people") and that the neighbouring ethnicity whose land they invaded and who they are currently mass murdering are less than human ("human animals").
I have yet to see Trump claiming to represent whites, saying that whites are superior and wanting to invade Latin American and murder the latinos because of deeming them subhuman.
Don't get me wrong, Trump absolutely is a Fascist. However directly so far he doesn't seem to be a Nazi and if he is a Nazi because of who he "sits with" then so are the Democrats since they all sit with the Zionists, the biggest and most murderous Nazi-like ideology around.
The expression Mango Mussolini fits Trump so well exactly because he's a Fascist in the same vein as Mussolini, not the same vein as Hitler.
Give me a fucking break. This is from the preamble to the Nuremberg Laws:
purity of German blood is the essential condition for the continued existence of the German people
And Trump:
They let — I think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country. When they do that, we got a lot of work to do. They’re poisoning the blood of our country. [...] They’re coming into our country from Africa, from Asia, all over the world.”
"The German Nazi Party adopted and developed several racial hierarchical categorizations as an important part of its fascist ideology (Nazism) in order to justify enslavement, extermination, ethnic persecution and other atrocities against ethnicities which it deemed genetically or culturally inferior. The Aryan race is a pseudoscientific concept that emerged in the late-19th century to describe people who descend from the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a racial grouping and it was accepted by Nazi thinkers. The Nazis considered the putative "Aryan race" a superior "master race" with Germanic peoples as representative of Nordic race being best branch" (Source)
In their ideology, German people and Arian Race were the same thing, same as Zionists conflate Israeli with Jewish.
All you proved with your decontextualized quote is that Nazis also claimed to support Germans (which makes sense, as ethno-Fascists are a kind of Fascist hence also use the "love of the nation" in their speeches). That doesn't disprove that they had an ideology of racial superiority, saw other ethnicities as inferiors and committed Genocide along ethnic lines which is what makes the not merely Fascists but actually Nazis (and the reason why people remember them still, whilst almost nobody remembers the parties of the traditional Fascists such as Mussolini or Franco).
To back your claims that Trump is a Nazi rather than "just" a traditional Fascist, you need to show that he has the kind additional ideology elements that made the Nazis be something else (much much worse) than merely Fascists and that's the whole rabid violent racism thing.
I don't owe you anything, and your sophistry is embarrassing. Why would Trump refer to his people's blood being poisoned by immigrants if he didn't consider immigrants inherently inferior? Do you consider labeling other ethnicities as being poisonous to be a neutral statement?
I don’t know why this distinction without a difference is a hill you want to die on. In terms of fighting fascists—which is all that matters—there’s nothing to be gained by distinguishing between Nazism and sparkling fascism. People who subscribe to Nazi exceptionalism don’t understand what fascism is, what its function is and for whom it functions (hint: it functions for the capitalist class, as a false revolution).
Fascism, usually understood in Marxist theory as capitalism in decay, is a counter-revolutionary reactionary movement led by finance capital, and a form of dictatorship...
My dude. Dude. People are in here complaining about a fascist and all you have to contribute is "um, actually"ing them for using the name of the wrong fascist subtype? I think you've lost the plot, my dude.
I just hate when I'm hanging out with a bunch of racist gamers and people think I'm a racist gamer too. Sure, they may say some really inappropriate stuff I laugh at. And sure, I may not stop them when they're ruthlessly mocking some poor person of color, but I myself didn't do it so why would people think I'm a part of them? Everytime we go out to eat they treat all of us like we're terrible people, but really it's just them. I don't get it.
(This was sarcasm. I don't hang with racists but I didn't know how else to paint the picture clearly. Thats how your argument sounded though)
People forget that the EU has a massive bigotry problem and has since forever. They hate the LGBTQ community even more than Americans somehow. This drives a lot of weird passive support for Trump by them. I've talked to quite a few Europeans on Discord who either think the Trump hate is overblown or outright like the guy.
Uh what? I don’t think "a few Europeans on discord" is any representative way. Although I think we have a bigger west east decide (sometimes even per country), but in Western (or northern or even southern) Europe that’s definitely more accepted than in the US.
And European representative surveys have shown trump would have lost like 80:20 here.
"hey guys social media manager here. It was all my fault. It's not our CEOs fault, at all. Just mine. Who am I? Well I can say my name definitely doesn't start with an A and end in a Y. Just little ol' faceless nameless me. Tee hee sorry."
Tangential: shouldn't it be "Naziism"? Like, in "Nazi" the "i" belongs to "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei", or the "Natio—" part. But shouldn't there be another "i" that goes with the "ism" suffix, so "Naziism"? Am I thinking about it in the wrong way?
Giorgio Galli ... the born of Nazism and please stop to rant about Trump and Nazism ... the Nazism did not born in Germany but in the civilized Vienna and in France, the young Hitler was having masters that did not seen a judge after the war and the heritage of them is still very much thriving in Bruxelles ... and really I am not here to lecture but to explore the web iceberg with freemind and happiness ... not to bother myself with these gross traces of ignorance ( very easy to be solved with 4-5 kilos of right books ).
Neither do the other thousands or millions of people who do so, but it's not a particularly uncommon thing and it's likely enough that (birthdate) is the reason it's there. I've got my birth year (not '88) in my username for some sites because the bare username was already taken
Scratch under the surface of every for profit privacy / anonymity service, you find shitty libertarian cryptobros who probably post racist memes on 4chan while whining about feminism in the man-o-sphere. That doesn't speak to the nature of people who care about privacy, it speaks to the nature of people who care about privacy and also want to do capitalism.
And also a reminder that Switzerland flirted with actual nazism. Remember that whole "neutral" during WWII thing. That was really finlandization of Switzerland from western powers. They operated inside the German economic block.
So telling a swiss company that Trump is a nazi and association with anything even 0.0000001% a nazi would be outside of what you'd expect for a Swiss is kind of funny.
The only thing Nazi-like about Trump is his support of Israel committing a genocide against people who are in the way of Israel's Lebensraum.
I moved several years worth of emails off their platform and closed my subscription on Friday. Enough is enough. I’m not giving this guy another dime. I specifically pointed to andy88’s behaviour in the “why are you cancelling” dialogue. I feel for the good people who work at that company and don’t support this, but we all have choices to make.
Why in your view is it mutually exclusive? To address any problem one first has to identify that there is in fact a problem. Calling it out where it exists IS that identification. It isn't about "labels" it's about identifying what needs to be dealt with and make no mistake there are a lot of people who don't want to acknowledge the problem and if anything what you're doing is exactly the shit the fascists do by forcing the side wanting to fight fascism to moderate its language on the belief that if we use that language against the fascists the fascists will dig into their fascism... as if they aren't doing that anyway.
In fact letting the right-wing control the narrative no matter what happens is in large part why we are where we are and why this shit needs to be called out, identified, labelled and opposed at every point with whatever means are necessary.
asap
in reply to Onyx376 • • •krolden
in reply to asap • • •Lmao that onyx guys comment is at -18
And protons reply:
They just dont get it
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warm
in reply to krolden • • •jagged_circle
in reply to warm • • •curbstickle
in reply to jagged_circle • • •like this
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warm
in reply to jagged_circle • • •NoForwardslashS
in reply to asap • • •rnercle
in reply to Onyx376 • • •floofloof
in reply to rnercle • • •driving_crooner
in reply to floofloof • • •floofloof
in reply to driving_crooner • • •like this
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tburkhol
in reply to driving_crooner • • •ThoGot
in reply to tburkhol • • •tburkhol
in reply to ThoGot • • •_cryptagion [he/him]
in reply to tburkhol • • •rnercle
in reply to driving_crooner • • •same reasoning would justify the use of swastika for an indian living in Germany
good luck working that out
floofloof
in reply to rnercle • • •_cryptagion [he/him]
in reply to rnercle • • •rnercle
in reply to _cryptagion [he/him] • • •looks like it's even more complicated than i did assume ☞ en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swasti…
this has nothing to do with race, i was making an analogy. I'm neither in/from Germany, nor in/from India. I just happen to know this:
German law which restricts the use of insignias of banned organizations
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)MNByChoice
in reply to driving_crooner • • •Sadly, "Asia" doesn't mean "ignorance of Hitler."
#Looking for link to Nazi store in ...
Edit: first link I found. Not endorsement.
qz.com/928440/asias-disturbing…
Asia’s disturbing embrace of “Nazi chic” is prompting a nonprofit to teach Holocaust history
Ilaria Maria Sala (Quartz)Trent
in reply to floofloof • • •floofloof
in reply to Trent • • •Kilgore Trout
in reply to floofloof • • •Karyoplasma
in reply to Kilgore Trout • • •Our license plates look like this: 2/3-letter city identifier - 1/2 letters you can choose - a 1-4 digit number you can choose. A friend of mine has the initials A.H. and was born in 1988. He wanted CITY - AH - 88. Registration did not allow it as it's nazi dog whistling.
Dog whistling is very common to find like-minded fascists and nazis. Kind of a sad, pathetic life if you think about it.
namingthingsiseasy
in reply to Karyoplasma • • •floofloof
in reply to Kilgore Trout • • •SeekPie
in reply to floofloof • • •madjo
in reply to SeekPie • • •en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourte…
white nationalist slogan used by neo-Nazis, white nationalists and the alt-right
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)NoForwardslashS
in reply to Kilgore Trout • • •zephorah
in reply to Trent • • •CosmicTurtle0 [he/him]
in reply to zephorah • • •While yes adding your birth year to your username is common (but terrible OpSec), adding 88 or HH or other Nazi symbolism is also common among their community. Especially in an open setting.
It serves as a shibboleth for the alt-right that you are one of them.
ZeroCool
in reply to Trent • • •That’s correct, he was asked about it on Reddit too and confirmed it was just his birth year.
Since it’s a common dog whistle though I do think it’s always worth questioning. Particularly when it’s tied to someone licking Trump’s boots.
winterayars
in reply to ZeroCool • • •A lot of Nazis were supposedly born in 1988...
But in this specific case, i believe him.
HowManyNimons
in reply to winterayars • • •im sorry i broke the code
in reply to HowManyNimons • • •HowManyNimons
in reply to im sorry i broke the code • • •Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
in reply to winterayars • • •AnAmericanPotato
in reply to Trent • • •8 is also a lucky number in Chinese culture. I've seen a lot of "88"s in Chinese social media just because of that.
It always sucks when shitbags co-opt innocent symbols and language.
root
in reply to Trent • • •DolphinMath
in reply to floofloof • • •Not even a little in this situation. Maybe take your head out of your ass and stop spreading lies. He literally addressed this head on.
reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/commen…
His reply in text form:
natural number
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)_cryptagion [he/him]
in reply to floofloof • • •HowManyNimons
in reply to _cryptagion [he/him] • • •_cryptagion [he/him]
in reply to HowManyNimons • • •HowManyNimons
in reply to _cryptagion [he/him] • • •eli
in reply to floofloof • • •eli
in reply to rnercle • • •novacomets
in reply to Onyx376 • • •nohaybanda [he/him]
in reply to novacomets • • •WALLTHERICH [comrade/them]
in reply to novacomets • • •Nightwatch Admin
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Onyx376
in reply to Onyx376 • • •reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/commen…
UPDATE: Andy Reply
According to Andy's logic, if Hitler were the president of some unfortunate country, we should differentiate the boss from his good nominees. Even using a company founded by an entire community to show a good evaluation made by one of its founders to give him a loving pat on the back and show the world that he is not completely bad as they think, but not meaning that the founder agrees with all his innocent actions, of course, such as disregarding the rights of many people around the world because they are just part of the democratic game.
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CaptSneeze
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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Leaf (she/her)
in reply to CaptSneeze • • •refalo
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Honestly I find his attitude to be quite commendable and I think that speaks much louder than whatever it is you disagree with.
Maybe he should have just left Trump's name out of it entirely as that seems to be what really pushed people's buttons.
People are going to twist things around no matter what is said though. Don't forget hindsight makes everyone look guilty.
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KinglyWeevil
in reply to refalo • • •It would be one thing if Trump was actually anti-trust...but he isn't.
He's anti companies which don't prostrate themselves in front of him and bow to his whims. They're bad, terrible, anti American companies. The ones that do are great, wonderful, beautiful companies. The bad ones need to be broken up and given to the big ones.
He's so transparent it's painful. If someone says good things about Trump or give him money, they're good. If they don't, they're bad. It's absurdly obvious.
sudneo
in reply to KinglyWeevil • • •If that motivation still leads to work against tech monopolies, good. Can't wait for people to do the right thing for the right reason. If that won't happen it will be criticized as a lack of action.
Ultimately the benefit for the population is having as much freedom and fair competition in the tech space as possible. If that comes from Trump hallucinations, from a dream or from something else, who cares...?
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msage
in reply to sudneo • • •It doesn't, never did, never will.
I can't believe we have to argue in 2025 about this.
The whole project 2025 is about breaking bad regulations, antitrust won't survive. You just have to kiss the ring, and do whatever.
sudneo
in reply to msage • • •msage
in reply to sudneo • • •If it happens to only specific companies, but others will do anything without issues, it will be a huge problem.
And it will.
aimizo
in reply to sudneo • • •sudneo
in reply to aimizo • • •Either way (and he said this too), we will be all evaluating actions, and at the moment we are speculating on what's going to happen. Why so much heat for an opinion on such thing though?
Doomsider
in reply to refalo • • •He should have just stayed the fuck out of Americans politics being a provider of a secure service that many Americans of all political persuasions use.
He is an idiot who cost his company business. The only spin is trying to downplay it at this point. The consequences are lost profits.
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_cryptagion [he/him]
in reply to Doomsider • • •Doomsider
in reply to _cryptagion [he/him] • • •No, he should stay out of either side because business is about making money. I don't want to know what politics you support. I don't care for politicizing everything. It is a fucking turn off.
You want my money, do your job, sell me your product, give me your service, but don't talk to me about your hot takes on politics. Also religion as well. I and many many other people don't want to hear it.
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_cryptagion [he/him]
in reply to Doomsider • • •Doomsider
in reply to _cryptagion [he/him] • • •like this
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howrar
in reply to Doomsider • • •Doomsider
in reply to howrar • • •njm1314
in reply to _cryptagion [he/him] • • •Ulrich
in reply to refalo • • •It probably didn't help, but no, I don't think that was it. I think it was his sweeping generalizations about dems/republicans as a whole, along with the insinuation that dems were bought, republicans are "looking out for the little guys", and the election undermined the will of the people:
sudneo
in reply to Ulrich • • •You are right about the generalization on parties, but the "little guy" he meant are small tech companies opposed to big tech. It was clear to me in the context, and to clear any doubt, he explicitly said that in a reddit comment.
I want to specify because this has been stretched on here as far as "he said republicans care for the working class".
Ulrich
in reply to sudneo • • •That changes nothing.
sudneo
in reply to Ulrich • • •Added for completeness. Lots of people got pissed because they assumed he meant that in general republicans stand with the little guy, prompting comments such as "what about trans/immigrants/etc.".
You did not do that, of course, but you can see how your comment could reinforce this opinion in people who didn't read the actual tweet and discussion and were just looking for reasons to get angry.
_____
in reply to Onyx376 • • •jlow (he/him)
in reply to Onyx376 • • •sudneo
in reply to Onyx376 • • •So, to get this straight, for you it's impossible to recognize that a pick for a position is a good pick in the Trump government, by definition, without consideration of the actual pick?
To me this is religion, not politics or ideology (which I both consider very good things).
To be even more clear, I consider Andy's position completely rational and legitimate in this case. I believe it's absolutely legitimate to be happy Trump picked someone good for a position and at the same time not support the rest 98%.
At most, the interesting debate is why that pick is not good, which is 100% opinable and worthy of a discussion.
But saying that any statement, in any context, whatever narrow and specific equal full support is completely insane to me.
Senal
in reply to sudneo • • •If all he said was literally "i approve of this pick for this position" you'd be correct.
What actually happened was he approved of the pick and also claimed the republicans are now actually the party that stands for the "little guy".
Then followed up with a non apology that claimed what he said was not intended to be a "political statement".
by all means, argue that you think there's a fuss over nothing, but if you leave important context out seemingly because it doesn't suit your narrative it weakens your argument substantially.
sudneo
in reply to Senal • • •I know what happened, I followed quite thoroughly.
He thinks that republicans are now the ones with a higher chance to push antitrust cases against big tech (I.e., work for the little guy - EDIT: source).
He thinks this based on the last few years and a few things that happened. He likes the nomination from Trump.
How is this a full support to Trump? How believing that republicans will do better - in this area - equals being a Nazi?
Of course I believe that there is a fuss over nothing. The above statement has been inflated and I have already read "he applauded to Trump antitrans policies", " posted Nazi symbols" and other complete fantasies.
Many people, who are on the internet on a perpetual witch hunt decided to interpret a clearly specific tweet (about antitrust and big tech) as a global political statement, and read that "little guy" as "common man" or - I have read it here on Lemmy - "working class". Basically everyone tried to propose ideas about why that post was so awful, rather than first trying to understand what the hell he meant. I will agree the first tweet is ambiguous, but that's because it's a 200 characters tweet, he then explained his position quite clearly, and the summary above is what he actually meant.
This "context" added doesn't move my post a centimeter IMO.
Senal
in reply to sudneo • • •See, now that's a more thorough explanation of your position.
I disagree with pretty much all of your assertions (though the witch hunt stuff can be true sometimes) , but at least i know I'm disagreeing with an opinion formed using the whole of the information provided.
It shows you read the initial information in it's entirety and still came to the conclusion you did.
That removes the possibility of responses such as "Did you even read the initial tweet?".
Well... it should remove that possibility, in practice it just means you can safely ignore those responses because clearly the people making those responses haven't read your response in it's entirety.
Yozul
in reply to sudneo • • •While it's certainly true that some of the people who are angry at him for that tweet are saying things in their anger that are overboard, I think only pointing out the most ridiculous things that people who disagree with you have ever said in their anger is a really terrible way of engaging honestly on the subject.
It's important to remember that an authoritarian that always figured out what the right thing to do was and did the opposite of that would be a really bad authoritarian. Republicans at the state level have been increasing state surveillance to hunt down and punish people for choices they make with their own bodies. For a lot of people in America, Trump is the head of the organization that they want privacy to protect themselves from, and the current largest threat to privacy in America.
For the CEO of a company that is supposedly about protecting our privacy to completely unprompted start publicly praising decisions made by the very threat we're supposed to trust them to protect us from, and then to double down on their praise when called out, is deeply concerning.
Yes. It's true that not every single thing Trump does will be the worst possible thing, but his goals are fundamentally opposed to ours. When I say I want big tech to be broken up it's because I want their to be less concentration of power. When Trump wants to break up big tech it's because he wants to eliminate the competition to his concentration of power. That is not worthy of my praise, even if in any one particular instance the thing he is doing is similar to what I would do, and the fact that the CEO of Proton either doesn't understand this or doesn't care is deeply concerning. I do not trust them after this, and I doubt they can ever get that trust back.
sudneo
in reply to Yozul • • •He praised one thing, and motivated that praise.
It's 100% possible to disagree, but I don't find it concerning at all. I find it reasonable, because proton can better protect the privacy of users if more people can choose freely privacy oriented tools (like proton). Hence, if Trump does or says something that can help moving in that direction, it can be labeled as a good thing. Not every sentence is a collective or global assessment of all things considered.
So I am good with him doing the right thing for the wrong reason, and I wish him a swift failure afterwards.
Have you considered that he might not agree with what is just your opinion?
Obviously you are free to draw any conclusion you want and not use them.
tomatolung
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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echutaaa
in reply to tomatolung • • •Ulrich
in reply to echutaaa • • •like this
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iAmTheTot
in reply to Ulrich • • •like this
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Ulrich
in reply to iAmTheTot • • •like this
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DolphinMath
in reply to iAmTheTot • • •like this
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ultranaut
in reply to DolphinMath • • •like this
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iAmTheTot
in reply to DolphinMath • • •DolphinMath
in reply to iAmTheTot • • •Not what he said.
His words about the Gail Slater nomination specifically were.
I disagree with Yen here, but characterizing that statement as “republicans are the right choice for their policies and democrats are not,” seems like a real stretch.
iAmTheTot
in reply to DolphinMath • • •Ulrich
in reply to tomatolung • • •tl:dr Proton CEO came out on Twitter and praised Trump's selection for FTC leader. Which is fine, in my opinion, even though I disagree with it. What's not so fine is that he followed that up with basically "dems are bought and conservatives are more likely to fight for consumer privacy", which is abundantly clearly to anyone who pays attention to US politics, objectively incorrect.
mastodon.neat.computer/@jonah/…
Jonah Aragon
2024-12-24 02:50:46
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atmur
in reply to Ulrich • • •like this
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Ulrich
in reply to atmur • • •like this
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sudneo
in reply to Ulrich • • •He actually didn't touch privacy, he touched antitrust and monopolies. The whole benefit to privacy is indirect by means of a level field.
He believes that republicans will do better than dems in terms of fighting big tech monopolies.
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Ulrich
in reply to sudneo • • •sudneo
in reply to Ulrich • • •In this case, his views on antitrust may be naive, but it's quite easy to see how what he thinks might happen with antitrust/big tech is indirectly benefiting the privacy of users (worldwide). So doesn't it fit directly with the opinion of a CEO of a company whose main point is privacy?
Ultimately proton didn't change product because of this trump decision, didn't change internal policies, terms, privacy policy, nothing.
htrayl
in reply to Ulrich • • •DolphinMath
in reply to htrayl • • •*She
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Sla…
Irish and American lawyer and political advisor
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)htrayl
in reply to DolphinMath • • •He, Andrew Ferguson
Expect continued increased in costs if goods.
U.S. lawyer and politician
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)DolphinMath
in reply to htrayl • • •Ok, but that is explicitly not the person or position Andy commented on.
reddit.com/img/d8c2gtdwb6de1.j…
MarmiteLover123 [comrade/them, any]
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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catloaf
in reply to MarmiteLover123 [comrade/them, any] • • •like this
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MarmiteLover123 [comrade/them, any]
in reply to catloaf • • •See this is the exact liberal nonsense I'm talking about. How is Trump "subservient to Russia and China"? Because he views continuing the war in Ukraine as no longer in the United States' interest? And China? I thought Trump was all about tariffs on Chinese goods and starting a trade war in his last term. I don't see that as subservient, that's confrontation. A negative confrontation that just hurt everyone globally, but maybe necessary from a third world perspective, waking up the third world to the reality of the United States and it's economic warfare. If you're talking about dialing down the temperature against China in his upcoming term, that would be because the US benefits from Chinese imports and can't wean itself off of them due to a lack of domestic manufacturing and industry, and because China needs a market to sell their goods to as domestic consumption + exports to the rest of the world can't make up for US consumption, so they'll give in to US demands. I fail to see how such a position is "pro China" it's just self interest.
You have to stop viewing politics through the personalities of world leaders as if it's some kind of Hollywood movie, and view the material reality. If the USA is no longer interested in pursuing a certain action or decides to escalate on another front in the next four years, ask yourself why is that the case, instead of defaulting to "Trump crazy stupid strongman dictator selling out the USA". That kind of liberal analysis is not helpful and will leave you lost. Never underestimate your adversary.
For example in Greenland, many people were going on about how Trump is some big idiot that wants a country that looks big on a Mercator projection. Meanwhile, the United States secured a large rare earth metals deposit in Greenland, stoping Chinese mining companies from getting the rights to it. The US company that bought the rights to the rare earth metals deposit signed a contract with the United States Department of Defence to process the metals. While everyone was distracted by Trump talking nonsense, the US pulled of a heist and exerted more political pressure on its allies. When one hand is doing something (in this case Trump's loud mouth), always look at moves the other hand is making (in this case, the US DoD getting more control in Greenland over their mining deposits). If you fail to do so, the jester will rob you blind. In this case, a large deposit of Rare Earth Ores in Greenland, China excluded and Denmark further vassalised.
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MNByChoice
in reply to MarmiteLover123 [comrade/them, any] • • •- YouTube
youtu.beLussy [he/him, des/pair]
in reply to catloaf • • •Damn, Trump is pretty fucking rad apparently
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anarchoilluminati [comrade/them]
in reply to Lussy [he/him, des/pair] • • •This Andy Yen guy is pretty cool for supporting Trump then!
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Lussy [he/him, des/pair]
in reply to MarmiteLover123 [comrade/them, any] • • •like this
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anarchoilluminati [comrade/them]
in reply to MarmiteLover123 [comrade/them, any] • • •Yeah, I really think this is a little overblown for what he said.
Critical support for specific reasons doesn't exist for these people. Just black and white, Harry and Voldemort.
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JaggedRobotPubes
in reply to Onyx376 • • •He's kind of right on the money and kind of being completely dumb.
The fact of it is that Republicans don't want to help privacy or take down big tech's abuses, they want to make it worse. All of the reasonable things Andy has said have taken place past that, so in a way the entire conversation is talking past the point.
The question is, how can somebody so influential at a major privacy company not have such a pre-school understanding of major world figures' relationships to his core business?
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Clent
in reply to JaggedRobotPubes • • •JubilantJaguar
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Oh FFS. Please stop abusing the word "Nazi" for every tiny transgression against 2025-era US progressive biases. Why do Americans do this - do you not learn anything at school? Words have meanings. Whatever the reason, to compare someone who isn't "fighting for a more just and equal society" to a "Nazi" just makes you look like a know-nothing ignoramus. It discredits whatever you have to say.
Response to the predictable justifications. Are you all aware that Putin calls democratic Ukraine "Nazi" for exactly the reasons you're all calling Trump one - namely, that it's a big powerful word? Yes, I'm aware of Trump's provocations and impulses. In other times Trump would probably have been more Mussolini than Berlusconi (i.e. a fascist). But "Nazi" is on a whole other level: it implies an apocalyptic, totalitarian, genocidal subversion of what most people consider civilization. This was actually a thing and it bears almost no connection to Trump's brand of chaotic reactionary populism. If you know anything about history then you should know this already. To insinuate that Trumpism is Nazism is insulting to intelligence.
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kata1yst
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •Trump literally brags about studying Hitlers speeches. His father was a well known Nazi sympathizer.
Trump often uses Nazi rhetoric and sologans. The examples of these are extremely numerous and no other broadly supported American politician has been caught as often, all but assuring dog-whistling.
Neo-Nazis openly back Trump and are in his inner circle. They've been caught with swastika flags and tattoos, SS tattoos, 88 tattoos, often ending merchandise on Trump's own websites with $X.88, lifting their arms in a Sig Heil at rallies, etc etc etc etc.
Trump has been asked to condemn his Neo-Nazi supporters and their racial violence, and he refuses.
If it quacks like a Nazi, acts like a Nazi, and literally claims to be a Nazi- we should call it a Nazi.
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octopus_ink
in reply to kata1yst • • •Adding to that -
Trump: ‘I Need the Kind of Generals That Hitler Had’
Trump: ‘I Need the Kind of Generals That Hitler Had’
Jeffrey Goldberg (The Atlantic)like this
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BluescreenOfDeath
in reply to octopus_ink • • •And his refusal in the leadup to the 2020 election to denounce the Proud Boys.
"Stand Back and Stand By" isn't the kind of thing you say to a group you want nothing at all to do with.
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iAmTheTot
in reply to kata1yst • • •JubilantJaguar
in reply to kata1yst • • •like this
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kata1yst
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •Last time he had opposition inside his party. Powerful people who didn't want to rock the boat, the 'old guard's. He had a split supreme court. He had a pandemic that slowed and in many ways prevented his plans.
Well, unfortunately, those old guard conservatives have largely been purged. The supreme court has been packed. And while pandemics are not entirely common, people have been lulled into a false sense of security and are unlikely to respond the same.
I don't expect us to lose our vote. But I do expect voter suppression to escalate dramatically.
I don't expect ethic cleansing, but I expect a lot of racial violence and escalating racial tensions.
I don't expect world war, but I do expect a massive erosion of global diplomacy and many minor conflicts.
Most of the people who voted for him are largely brainwashed and uninformed or misinformed. Often times they're scared or mistrusting rather than hateful.
I don't call them Nazi's, and I sincerely hope we can bring many of them back into reality.
But anyone who has paid attention to his rhetoric, his plans, his platform and still voted for it. Well there's a word for people who supported the Nazi party in Germany but didn't support the war or the ethnic cleansing. Nazis. They were called Nazis.
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JubilantJaguar
in reply to kata1yst • • •like this
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kata1yst
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •You continue to post responses to my evidence, but seem to refuse to engage with that evidence in any meaningful way.
Further, your posts are becoming more and more pedantic, insulting, and condescending.
I can tell you're not invested in a respectful discussion, but rather in a platform for your ranting.
I'll leave you to it and won't respond further.
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JubilantJaguar
in reply to kata1yst • • •Is downvoting someone for their opinion "respectful". Personally, I don't do that.
Karyoplasma
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •like this
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valentinesmith
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •He is flirting with the alt-right. And some movements „dabble“ in nazi memorabilia to mention the most flagrant connections to it or his failure to even outright criticize Hitler.
I know that the word Nazi is really triggering but its also true in this case. He is not said to be a Nazi himself but flirting with them. Which is factual and not really discrediting per se.
If the only argument here is: Nazis can only be German and its a historical term that cannot ever be applied to other nations I think that belies how everyone consistently uses language in a not strict academic sense and even then there are academic papers linking him to Nazism and right ideology in general.
And your other insinuation of saying that „anyone who isnt working for a more just and equal society“ would be applicable to Trump, his campaign and the things he platforms falls flat if you look at what his recurring talking points are.
Sure let’s use the word Nazi less bit of course in association with Trump it gets used for very clear, explicit parallels.
But I don’t think you really care about that if you try to frame everything as tiny transgressions by people who are just not „fighting for a more just and equal society“.
If Nazi is too strong a word, what would you propose? And is the use of it logically a valid reason to discredit an opinion? On an open source platform talking about people who have English as a second or third language?
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JubilantJaguar
in reply to valentinesmith • • •Something that describes the phenomenon you're talking about. "Nationalist", "national populist", "rightwing populist", "hard-right reactionary", etc etc. There are lots. No, they don't get your blood pumping like "Nazi", but the benefit is that they save you from looking like an ignorant extremist and might also help you be more persuasive.
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EldritchFemininity
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •To quote the incoming administration, "We need a genocide of trans people."
The LGBT community was one of the first groups in the camps. Alongside the immigrants and socialists. You know the famous picture of the Nazis burning books? Those books were records from the German Center for Sexual Wellness, a repository of knowledge about sex and sexuality, and the first known medical facility to treat transgender people using hormone therapy in the 1910s.
Maybe you should learn history before saying something like a know-nothing ignoramus and discrediting whatever you have to say. But go off about "progressive biases." To also quote a Republican complaint, "Reality has a left-leaning bias." Is that what you think, too?
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JubilantJaguar
in reply to EldritchFemininity • • •I have a degree in it.
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EldritchFemininity
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •And yet you fail to see the parallels between Trump's rhetoric (one of Hitler's first campaign promises was to build a wall around Germany to keep the job stealing immigrants out), his and his party's stated goals, even his failed coup attempt (the Beer Hall Putsch sound familiar?), and the rise of Hitler's Nazi party. Even the phrase "Make America Great Again" was used by a pro-Nazi American political group during the onset of WW2, who only disbanded after Pearl Harbor because it united the aggression of all sides of the political spectrum in the US.
Your argument basically boils down to "They're not oligarchs unless they come from the oligarchy region of Russia. Otherwise, they're "sparkling billionaires.""
You majored in this in college, while I've learned much of the finer details of the Nazi party because of Republican policies in the past decade. If it steps like a goose, Sig Heils like a goose, and quacks about the purity of Aryan blood, I'm sure as hell not calling it a duck because it's an American goose and not a German one of 1910s breeding stock.
And even in that metaphor, you could argue a direct lineage between the MAGA party and the Nazi party because the incoming president is the son of a real estate tycoon who was a German immigrant whose previous business was refining jet fuel for the Third Reich's Me-262 Schwalbes produced by Messerschmitt.
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JubilantJaguar
in reply to EldritchFemininity • • •Pup Biru
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •wow equating Nazis with communists - now there’s a false equivalence
what a great way to turn down the temperature! being condescending… good work bud
perhaps take a look at the comment votes once in a while and do some self-reflection on your communication style, if not the correctness of your statements and either say: sorry, i’m clearly miscommunicating, or sorry you’re right
JubilantJaguar
in reply to Pup Biru • • •So, it turns out there are people here who believe that comment votes somehow track truth, or at least something other than the prejudices and confirmation bias of those doing the voting.
The naivety is sad enough (internet forums have existed for 30 years - have we learned nothing?). But it's worse than that, because it suggests that you would put aside your reasoned views, your values even, in order to fit in with whatever the mob around you thinks. No democracy can work if everyone does this. Let's hope you're an exception.
Apologies for the condescension but there was no alternative here.
EldritchFemininity
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •Your analogy is actually very apt because at the height of their power, the Nazi party made up a whopping 15% of the German population, IIRC.
It doesn't take a lot of crazies to end with a death count for a minority group so high that they only passed their pre-WW2 population levels about 15 years ago. It merely takes the indifference or implicit support of the majority. So many Americans are either one issue voters or indifferent because their rights aren't up for debate every 4 years that the political compass has swung so extreme that in the first 6 months of (I think) 2022, there were more anti-trans bills proposed than there were days in the year at that point. I did the math, and it came out to roughly 1.2 anti-trans bills per day. The Nazis didn't start with the gas chambers. They started with prisons and internment camps for political prisoners, LGBT people, immigrants, and anyone else they deemed "undesirable," inspired by America's treatment of the indigenous peoples.
If we're willing to call the people of Germany in WW2 Nazis or Nazi sympathizers, then we can call the "I'm a Republican, I vote for the nominee" crowd that I've known my entire life and the indifferent silent majority Nazi sympathizers as well, and the MAGA crowd that call for banning trans people from public spaces and to deport immigrants Nazis. They hold the same values about fascism and white supremacy, and many even wear the same outfits and fly the same flags as Nazi Germany. They've been marching in the streets since Trump's first campaign. And we haven't even talked about the white supremacist terrorist groups and militias. The FBI spends more than 50% of their time putting down white supremacist groups.
We have been marching down the exact same path as 1910s Germany for years, and we need to call it out. Even Hitler referred to the US as the sisterland across the ocean who shared his values in Mein Kampf. In any other country, the KKK would be considered a terrorist group. Here, they're a political activist group who almost got one of their leaders elected to a fairly major government position.
The Democrats have spent 50 years "reaching across the aisle." How'd that go for them in this past election? The country seems to have slipped ever further towards a Fourth Reich to me. When Republicans came out in support of Harris in swing states, she lost a large percentage of independent voters in those states - like 5% of the total voters in each state. There's no understanding to be had with white supremacists and fascists. All they want is for people like me to die.
sigmaklimgrindset
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •(emphasis mine)
What an interesting way to describe the technocratic class that is aligning themselves with Trump. Are you up for a promotion at a FAANG, maybe? For recently rolling back some DEI policies perhaps?
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Leraje
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •like this
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JubilantJaguar
in reply to Leraje • • •So you're keeping tabs on me, I see. Maybe you're drawing up a list of my transgressions?
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Leraje
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •like this
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in reply to Leraje • • •like this
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in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •like this
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NoForwardslashS
in reply to JubilantJaguar • • •like this
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Ulrich
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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ElcaineVolta
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to ElcaineVolta • • •like this
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ElcaineVolta
in reply to Ulrich • • •like this
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in reply to ElcaineVolta • • •like this
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Pup Biru
in reply to Ulrich • • •Ulrich
in reply to Pup Biru • • •T (they/she)
in reply to Ulrich • • •ReversalHatchery
in reply to ElcaineVolta • • •like this
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Ulrich
in reply to ReversalHatchery • • •atmur
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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ZeroCool
in reply to atmur • • •like this
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Clent
in reply to ZeroCool • • •I'd say he's already a foot over the line.
He's backally saying, "We Americans don't get it. He did nothing wrong because both sides are the same."
Rather than remorse, he's doubled down.
ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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AnAmericanPotato
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Ridiculous.
He specifically started talking about American party politics, unprompted, making sweeping statements about both Democrats and Republicans. NOW he wants to blame us for...being concerned with his views on American party politics? Dude. Get real.
Saying stupid shit now and then is forgivable, but not if you take it in as the new nucleus of your public image. Why do so many public figures have this compulsion to double down combatively?
humble peat digger
in reply to AnAmericanPotato • • •ShareMySims
in reply to Onyx376 • • •I can't be the only one who struggled to read that, and for general accessibility purposes since I'm already here:
Image ID:
andy1011000 Proton CEO posted:
"People honestly seem to forget that I live in Switzerland, where Republican/Democrat doesn't mean anything, and Trump isn't even on our ballot to be voted for..."
Onyx376. replied:
"The point is that fighting for a more just and equal society is not just about fighting for the fundamental right to privacy but also for all other fundamental rights, including individual rights and life. When you, as the CEO of a company that starts from these principles, nod positively to whatever action a political figure like Trump, who is known for always flagrantly putting his private interests ahead of those of his own nation, makes speeches about eliminating minorities, hurting their rights as citizens and flirting with Nazi movements, it is understandable that members of the privacy community are disappointed as this reveals a little about who is being the face of a company that should follow contrary principles. But now we really know what "freedom" means to you."
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CosmicTurtle0 [he/him]
in reply to ShareMySims • • •Doing the Lord's work right here. I absolutely cannot stand screenshots of desktop apps.
Mobile screenshots will be readable on both mobile and desktop.
But desktop screenshots are only readable on desktop.
ShareMySims
in reply to CosmicTurtle0 [he/him] • • •u/lukmly013 💾 (lemmy.sdf.org)
in reply to CosmicTurtle0 [he/him] • • •pufferfischerpulver
in reply to u/lukmly013 💾 (lemmy.sdf.org) • • •danc4498
in reply to ShareMySims • • •ShareMySims
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Now to reply to the post itself, I think this sums it up:
Though the sad truth is that almost every single product or service we use are owned and run by people with similar opinions, it is literally the nature of the capitalist beast, it's how it function, and why it will always decay in to fascism - because those with the power and the money (not just those at the very very top, but several levels bellow them, too, like this guy) will always and forever care solely about maintaining it and creating more for themselves, that's it. And to do that, they have to side with whichever dictator-du-jour benefits them the most.
I use a couple of free proton products, in the same way I still use a couple of free google products, it sucks, but in all honesty I just have bigger things on my plate to deal with right now than finding (and vetting, and keeping up with) new, and ethical, providers for all of the services I use run and owned by evil companies, so I'm not putting too much energy in to it at the moment (but I am taking notice, it's important to remain alert to the spread of fascism despite all of the above).
But remember - there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
ShareMySims
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Now to reply to the post itself, I think this sums it up:
Though the sad truth is that almost every single product or service we use are owned and run by people with similar opinions, it is literally the nature of the capitalist beast, it's how it function, and why it will always decay in to fascism - because those with the power and the money (not just those at the very very top, but several levels bellow them, too, like this guy) will always and forever care solely about maintaining it and creating more for themselves, that's it. And to do that, they have to side with whichever dictator-du-jour benefits them the most.
Remember - there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and this is only one of the reasons why.
kautau
in reply to ShareMySims • • •Mullvad VPN - Free the internet
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curbstickle
in reply to kautau • • •Probably where I'll go next, I have until the end of February and then my business will be elsewhere.
Since I set up some family at the same time, I'll be doing it for a few accounts.
M137
in reply to kautau • • •surph_ninja
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Why would anyone believe the Democrats are not also Nazis? They just spearheaded a live-streamed genocide, and bypassed a law banning sending arms to Nazis so that they could send them billions in arms.
Both parties are Nazis. Both must be stopped. Stop playing this stupid game where they make you fight over which Nazi to follow.
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TypicalHog
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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TwiddleTwaddle
in reply to TypicalHog • • •like this
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TypicalHog
in reply to TwiddleTwaddle • • •VintageGenious
in reply to TwiddleTwaddle • • •like this
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TwiddleTwaddle
in reply to VintageGenious • • •VintageGenious
in reply to TwiddleTwaddle • • •TwiddleTwaddle
in reply to VintageGenious • • •I dont have to prove shit to you and you aren't trying to understand. If you wanted to understand that trump is a fascist or Kamala isn't any any way a communist, you can find PILES of jourlism and academic works discussing those topics - you just have to leave the right-wing news media bubble.
Your entitlement to my time and this space as a place where you can demand proof for basic political concepts is the absolute definition of sealioning.
VintageGenious
in reply to TwiddleTwaddle • • •Are you high?
When did I say anything about Kamala being a communist? You're the one stating facts you cannot prove, I never stated such thing (since it's obviously false).
Your biased opinion is not a "basic politcal concept". And I doubt there is any reliable journal that would use those simplistic antagonizing views.
What makes you think I would look at right wing news media shit? I wouldn't be here lol. You need to understand that not agreeing with you is different than being fascist and that being fascist is different than being nazi, maybe you should learn about basic political concepts.
Anyway, asking for source for a random claim is not entitlement but legitimate behavior and arguing against it is arguing in favour of disinformation.
ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]
in reply to TypicalHog • • •TypicalHog
in reply to ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them] • • •VintageGenious
in reply to TypicalHog • • •ZeroOne
in reply to Onyx376 • • •jagged_circle
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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Onyx376
in reply to jagged_circle • • •Collatz_problem [comrade/them]
in reply to Onyx376 • • •like this
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GrymEdm
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Gammelfisch
in reply to Onyx376 • • •krnl386
in reply to Onyx376 • • •The term “Nazi” has been overused so much, especially in US [identity] politics, that it’s losing (or has already lost) its meaning. When are we going to start calling elevator farts “genocide” and “nazism”? 🤷🏻♂️
If the outrage is based on the screenshot of the comment above, I’d say that this is a typical example of “Swiss neutrality” with a touch of “I don’t give a flying f*ck about US politics because I don’t live in the US.” I don’t see how that makes you a nazi??
I suspect I may be missing something here…
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Odo
in reply to krnl386 • • •Jumpingspiderman
in reply to Onyx376 • • •BothsidesistFraud
in reply to Jumpingspiderman • • •It's dumb to call Trump a nazi and the populist wing of the Republican party nazis.
It's not even clever at this point, maybe it was edgy and transgressive like 7 years ago.
The reason it's dumb is that you are wasting all of your powerful language and you will have no more if things get worse. Boy who cried wolf. Just like people did to racist which used to carry great power and now is basically meaningless as a powerful descriptor.
GlacialTurtle
in reply to BothsidesistFraud • • •Are you really this childish that you genuinely think the only reason people might suggest Trump is a fascist is because it was "edgy and transgressive"? Not the fascist rhetoric, increasingly fascist policy and the various fascists he's willing to work with and support?
BothsidesistFraud
in reply to GlacialTurtle • • •GlacialTurtle
in reply to BothsidesistFraud • • •Hey guys, look at this dipshit, drawing irrelevant distinctions and pointlessly trying to police other peoples language because they think the only reason others would use those terms is because they're "edgy and transgressive".
Tell me, where on the fascism to nazism meter is mass deportations, muslim bans, endorsing far right militias, supporting running over protestors, palling around with white supremacists, and seeking to eradicate trans people from public life? Are we at .49? or is it more like .76? My readings seems to be off. Just so I know I'm not using the incorrect terms so some moron from .world doesn't get mad and try to incessantly police terms on the internet.
BothsidesistFraud
in reply to GlacialTurtle • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to BothsidesistFraud • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to BothsidesistFraud • • •Can't tell if you're defending trump or gatekeeping nazism.
BothsidesistFraud
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Peak 2020s narcissism, pointing out historical facts is "gatekeeping"
Sorry I meant, everyone is entitled to their own history. I have some cool ones I could share?
𝚐𝚕𝚘𝚠𝚒𝚎
in reply to BothsidesistFraud • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to BothsidesistFraud • • •Gee. Which side has all the people marching with nazi flags?
Which side never kicks them out when they do?
TGS
in reply to BothsidesistFraud • • •I'm sorry but what? This is really weird logic as language and words aren't required to follow some linear path of severity. People call the GOP, Trump and the like Nazis because... they fit the definition of Nazis, actual card carrying Nazis support them by a significant majority. (Yeah yeah I know there is the odd one here or there that doesn't)
If it walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi and engages in Nazi tactics, behaviors etc. Then it can be called a Nazi. You don't reserve your language so that you have some end point to progress to.
It's also very weird to use the boy who cried wolf when the whole point of that story is that you don't call something that which it isn't for fear that when the real thing comes along no one will believe you as that would imply that they are in fact not Nazis. Which would only be true in the most technical of sense (As in they are not of the Nazi party of Germany) but by most dictionary definition the word fits.
Lastly, what the hell are you even talking about "edgy"? Do you think people are calling them Nazis to be edgy? Because that's ridiculous and quite frankly your entire comment screams of someone trying to defend them through deflection.
kreskin
in reply to Onyx376 • • •humble peat digger
in reply to kreskin • • •Vpn from Switzerland won't save you - they will share our data if it comes to us needing access to it. And if proton refuses - it would have been shut down already like tiktok
sudoer777
in reply to Onyx376 • • •nb_mess[they/them]
in reply to Onyx376 • • •What the fuck, he's the last person I thought would do that
Scrollone
in reply to nb_mess[they/them] • • •sudoer777
Unknown parent • • •Donald Trump will control the NSA – what this means for your privacy
Andy Yen (Proton)ayyy
Unknown parent • • •Dragon Rider (drag)
in reply to ayyy • • •BothsidesistFraud
Unknown parent • • •Poe's law detector fail
Jyek
in reply to Dragon Rider (drag) • • •sprack
in reply to ayyy • • •ayyy
in reply to Dragon Rider (drag) • • •How to Convert 1011000 from binary to decimal
calculator.nameayyy
in reply to sprack • • •ayyy
in reply to sudoer777 • • •sprack
in reply to ayyy • • •𝚐𝚕𝚘𝚠𝚒𝚎
Unknown parent • • •ayyy
in reply to Onyx376 • • •sunbytes
in reply to ayyy • • •Petter1
in reply to sunbytes • • •Hawk
in reply to sunbytes • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to Hawk • • •Lka1988
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to Lka1988 • • •Lka1988
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •njm1314
in reply to Lka1988 • • •Lka1988
in reply to njm1314 • • •Frostbeard
in reply to ayyy • • •When was he born? Not everyone knows all the "secret" signs for stuff. How 18 is A.H or how 81 is H.A (Hells Angels) 1% biker clubs have surprisingly much of such codes. 8 is also the number of Khorne in the Warhammer fantasy/sci-fi setting. And before we start with that there are surprisingly few Nazis who play, but the few are very vocal.
Years ago I saw a guy in a crocery store in Norway wearing a "Combat18 Böhmen" hoodie. Buying ingredients for tex-mex taco incidentally. And when I pointed him out to my wife, she said that you are probably the only one in here to know this, and spot him for what he is.
So if Andy was born in 1988 I hope it's why he has 88 in his username.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to Frostbeard • • •I don't care when he was born. Who puts their birth year in their username? "Here, internet. Here's one less piece of information you need to steal my identity!"
No. "ItS mY bIrF YeEr" is just what nazi shit says when they get called out on being nazi shit.
Cracks_InTheWalls
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Look, I can't comment on the significance of binary 88 in this instance with any confidence, but a lot of people use their birth year in their username.
Is it stupid? Absolutely, alongside demonstrating a total lack of any creativity whatsoever. But it's 100% a thing.
Edit: Lol, will also note the first 'people also search' suggestion coming up when Googling Andy Yen is "When was Andy Yen born", and in the 5 seconds of drunken searching I still haven't seen a birth date.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to Cracks_InTheWalls • • •A lot of people who like trump were coincidentally totally born in 1988.
Cracks_InTheWalls
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •To be clear, I'm not arguing that people don't put 88 as a clear dog whistle to white supremacists/general Nazi bullshit. This is more to the comment "who puts their birth year in their username?" bit specifically. The answer is a lot of people.
I also am not excusing Yen for his pro-Trump comments - that was fucking bullshit and I'm deeply disappointed - I'm just saying the YOB thing is a thing, but also coincidentally I also can't seem to find a source to prove if he's also doing the YOB thing or something else.
Note to self: Limit Lemmy to 3 beers max, particularly where Trumpian bullshit is involved. And thank god for autocorrect. Apologies, I really should not be interneting right now.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to Cracks_InTheWalls • • •To be clear, anyone who supports trump is already nazi-adjacent enough to get no benefit of the doubt, and I don't buy the "It's my birth year" shit from any of them. Even if they were born in 1988, that's not the reason 88 is in their username.
I also don't believe that someone whose entire personality centers around cannabis has "420" in their username because they were born on April 20th. I don't believe that some fratboy who is constantly making horny comments has "69" in his username because he was born on June 9th, either.
davel
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to davel • • •davel
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to davel • • •Police have a long history of punching stoners in the face and worse. If you don't want to get called a nazi, don't do nazi shit with an 88 in your username.
HowManyNimons
in reply to Cracks_InTheWalls • • •rottingleaf
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •You are not very old, right?
Maybe now, in our stupid time, folks use phone numbers for identity, some stupid handle (or just their actual name) and then post a lot of text, photos and such, totally less harmful for their privacy than their birth year. And no birth year
But in the olden days it was the main solution to "such user already exists" problem, combined with things like 'xXx' and '+0+' on both sides or something.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to rottingleaf • • •You're not getting my birth year this way, either.
The account in question is two days old. And it's from the CEO of a VPN service. This isn't him signing up for baby's first AOL account back in 1994.
sudneo
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Yes, a public figure, whose data can be discovered in few minutes, considers his birth year a secret. Also nobody ever used the birth year in their username on the internet.
Also ANDY = 1 + 14 + 4 + 25 = 44, which is half of 88 and contains 14, another nazy symbol. He is trying to pass it off as his name, but who uses their name on the internet? I will check the cabala now, because I am sure there is more.
God, I hope Nick Fury is already grouping the avengers, because Hydra is really making a move here.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to sudneo • • •If you don't want people to think you're a nazi, don't say good things about trump with 88 sitting right there for everyone to see in your username.
The account is 2 days old. He knew what he was doing.
sudneo
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •If trump did a good thing in a very narrow context you can't say it, otherwise you are a Nazi? OK, this is madness.
Also, it's not "sitting there for everyone to see" because it's binary. You also realize that people have different cultural references right? Maybe it's not your responsibility to compute the cabala horoscope for everything you do, and assume that people will be able to use at least the 2% of the brain and for example distinguish from a bold Nazi supporter with 88 tattooed and a guy born in 88 who appends 88 to his username (in a nerd way). But apparently not.
He created an account to speak personally and not from the proton account he uses before. Anyway, "he knew what he was doing" is conspiracy theory again.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to sudneo • • •Yes, obfuscating it makes it better!
He supported trump with 88 in his username.
And he didn't need to put 88 in there, or obfuscate it. And I'm increasingly certain that you're freaking out and defending him for it because you're happy that your political party is represented.
sudneo
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •He supported Trump's pick. I know reality makes little difference for you, but still. Also yes, he put 88 in his username, which is not a crime, especially for a Taiwanese guy born in 88 lmao.
The sole fact we are even discussing this is just absurd. Absurd. It's 5g gives cancer absurd. It's vaccine give autism absurd.
Correct, because as non US citizen communist republicans are my party. In fact, anybody who disagrees with you is secretly a republican, and even more secret a Nazi, there is no other reason to disagree with you, absolutely. In fact, sudneo has "south" in it, and "o" at the end, what do you get it you put "o" south of "o"? 8, and that's half of 88. Considering there is also "n" in it, and that's 14, I think it's quite clear that I am also a Nazi, trying to cover my Nazi colleague Andy. Heil Hydra.
You are just a maga with slightly different moral values. Still a cultist fanatic on a witch hunt that threw reason and reality out of the window.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to sudneo • • •I know you're defending him for two reasons. This is one of them.
And this is the other.
No, it's not a crime to be a nazi in the US. I hope it is in your country.
I didn't say republicans were your party.
I believe you.
sudneo
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Yes, I am defending his ability to positively judge Trump's pick. And I am not defending the choice of 88. I believe it's not needed because the accusation is absurd.
It actually is, but - believe it or not - people born in 88 don't get arrested every time they add their birth date to a document.
I know you do. You would believe anything that helps you make sense of a complex world with a simple explanation: good vs evil. You are good, so anybody who disagrees with you is automatically evil. That's it, no more wasting time understanding or thinking, straight to conclusion , always.
As I said, you are a cultist. You are exactly the same as MAGA people, just with slightly different moral values. You think to be fighting Nazism like those people are fighting immigrants ruining their country or stuff like that.
You are doing great buddy, now you got me, so absolutely, by any means, do not try to reflect on the fact you are projecting your culture on a Taiwanese person. Do not reflect on what's the likelihood a normal guy, with a PhD in physics who built a great company that protects millions of people is actually a Nazi, and decides to show it because why not. Absolutely, don't reflect on this! Sit on your absolutely simplicistic assumption, because this reinforces all your previous beliefs, and makes the world a much simpler place!
Ensign_Crab
in reply to sudneo • • •If you say so.
Nonsense. People of good conscience can disagree in good faith. People who praise trump and have 88 in their usernames are not people of good conscience, and I don't think you're defending him in good faith.
They said it on an English language forum in English about an American president-elect. The account was two days old. If his judgement is that shitty here, it's shitty everywhere.
Yeah, whoever heard of a PhD being a nazi?
Whoever heard of a techbro having nazi sympathies?
Nazis are shit. That's simplistic. And true. And it offends you deeply.
sudneo
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Do you realise that this is a tautology? People who accuse people of being Nazis without concrete evidence and against much better and simpler explanation are not in good faith.
Or maybe he used his own judgment which is based on his own cultural background. But obviously this is unacceptable, how dares? Everyone knows that everyone should behave and say things that need to conform first and foremost to the sensibility of Americans. Only after they can express their being or their culture.
He doesn't even fit in the techbro definition. One again you just push air through your (virtual) mouth.
He has a higher education (most techbro don't), he doesn't work with big tech (most do), he specifically ceded control of his company to a nonprofit (guess), his company inherently has a technical and political stance opposite to what tech bros did in the last 2 decades.
That's not the assumption. The assumption is that "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi". Everyone (most) agrees that Nazis are shit.
Also don't assume my thought, stick to what I say. This is once again a dishonest way to conduct a conversation and it's borderline slander.
Bad faith, bad faith all over the place.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to sudneo • • •I didn't put the 88 in his username. I didn't force him to praise trump.
Stop hiding behind his cultural background just because it's convenient for you.
If he's talking to Americans and already stuck his foot in his mouth, he should have run this through his company's PR department before making a username with 88 in it.
That's your deliberate mischaracterization of anyone who disagrees with nazis.
I wonder if you can even admit that both nazis and trump are shit.
sudneo
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •JFC you have trouble even understanding a sentence. Do you know what a tautology is?
I will explain to you, and I am doing this for free as a patch to what I can only assume was a bad education system.
It's a sentence that is always true and can't be proven false, because that would be discussing it.
I am not contesting he did put 88 in the username, I am contesting that it has the meaning you attribute to him arbitrarily, and based on which you draw your conclusion.
Hiding? It's a better, simpler, more logical explanation that he said himself. It's not even needed, because a person could have million personal reasons to do that, but in this case this is it. If it's not convenient for your reality, deal with it.
This is a completely different argument. One I might agree with. But "missed ambiguous message" is different from "be a nazi".
Another tautology.
Of course I do. My great grandmother got killed by nazis mf. Trump isolationist position on Nato can fuck Ukraine, where my wife is from, and endanger me too.
Fuck your gothchas and assumptions. With love.
davel
in reply to sudneo • • •Holy shit, your modlog is nothing but fascist apologia.
Go find a Nazi bar somewhere else. We’re done here.
lenz
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to lenz • • •It's one thing when you're a naive kid or a clueless boomer. It's quite another when you're the ceo of a privacy-focused company.
Victor
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to Victor • • •He's younger than me, but there was a broad age range that all caught the internet around the same time. I'm aware that this is how it was once done. Usernames are longer now, allowing for greater creativity.
And this goober still uses his first name and an obfuscated 2 digit number? Yeah, he didn't choose it because it's his birth year.
Victor
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to Victor • • •Victor
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •akamar
in reply to Frostbeard • • •Here's all I could find about his age in a few minutes:
inc.com/jason-aten/the-ceo-of-…
He was actually born in 1988, according to the author's article. If anyone can find a more reliable resource, please, post it here🙏
phx
in reply to akamar • • •Yeah, birth years are super common in usernames (and password, don't use it there). Bob Smith finds his preferred username is taken so becomes BobSmith79 or BobSmith88 or whatever because it's easy an easy enough variation to remember.
You can find patterns/relations in almost anything if you reach for something, kinda like the "six degrees of separation" thing even if there's a more reasonable answer
KingRandomGuy
in reply to Frostbeard • • •HowManyNimons
in reply to KingRandomGuy • • •sam
in reply to ayyy • • •Keep in mind that the number 8 is auspicious and lucky in many parts of Asia. Any time I see a bunch of 8s in a username I think it's for luck.
I promise you this restaurant (and the hundreds of others with 88 in the name) are not dogwhistling for anything other than luck.
Can't speak for how this reflects on Andy Yen as I'm not familiar with him, but I just want y'all to know you can't assume 88 = HH in every case.
BluescreenOfDeath
in reply to sam • • •rottingleaf
in reply to BluescreenOfDeath • • •If it's really plausible, then you've got no way to tell it's a dogwhistle.
Your comment is equivalent to "I can't prove that Jews rule the world, but that's because they've worked for plausible deniability, I know they do".
Petter1
in reply to sam • • •sudneo
in reply to Petter1 • • •rottingleaf
in reply to ayyy • • •For limited people, maybe.
88 is:
1) important for people born in 1988
2) amateur radio romantic message (apparently older than Nazis, don't ask me how I know, but it has to do with being used in that, and not HH, meaning in one Nazi song ; felt strange for me, until I've just read that it was a telegraph thing before radio)
3) two eternity symbols turned (not those wheely ones)
4) as people have mentioned, common as a lucky number in certain parts of the globe
5) people can also be born on 8 August
6) had that number on some item memorable for him (I had 72 in plenty of my nicknames, I can promise you it's not about 72 virgins or 72 names of god and I'm not Muslim, I just had a yellow t-shirt with that number when I was a kid).
The funny part is that points #2 and #4 are probably known to him, tech company and all.
davel
in reply to rottingleaf • • •sudneo
in reply to ayyy • • •This is at the same time:
- a novax level conspiracy
- a completely idotic assumption that not only doesn't stand Occam's razor, but not even basic common sense.
- racist and showing a colonial mindset, clearly prioritising what is relevant in YOUR culture (superior, more important), compared to what is relevant in that person's culture.
Please can someone tell me how this attitude is fundamentally different from people who are in other cults (maga, novax, etc.)?
Lka1988
in reply to ayyy • • •Yeah, I'm gonna need a citation for that. I was born in 1988.
Water_Melon_boy
in reply to Onyx376 • • •A wise man once told me, don't mess with politics.
The moment you show stance (which usually isn't beneficial), you cut off options from yourself and endanger customer relationship.
Proton should just do business as usual, without that single post things would probably be just fine.
sudneo
in reply to Water_Melon_boy • • •Dave
in reply to sudneo • • •sudneo
in reply to Dave • • •Dave
in reply to sudneo • • •sudneo
in reply to Dave • • •I think he actually acknowledged that fact in later comments.
Anyway, this is a far smaller sin than all the stuff people are creatively accusing him of.
Apparently now he is a Nazi, and I think this case was the last nail in the coffin for me to think that political discourse can exist.
Dave
in reply to sudneo • • •If it helps, most people don't follow politics at all. And their votes are based on very little knowledge of what they are voting for.
I'm still a believer that if you put people in a room together instead of online, you'd get both sides of the aisle agreeing on 95% of things, once each side had a chance to explain their viewpoint (and made sure google was available to settle most disputes).
Ensign_Crab
in reply to Dave • • •Dave
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •That's not the point. A neutral stance VPN has all the anti-Nazis as customers, and all the Nazis. I would prefer anti-Nazi as well but I get that that a neutral stance means they can have more customers, something they need for economy of scale.
If they had stated their anti-trump stance then the freeze peach lemmy instances would probably have all their Nazis cancelling their proton subscriptions.
Honestly I hope all the cancellations on our side aren't balanced by a bunch of Nazis signing up after seeing the comments.
Ensign_Crab
in reply to Dave • • •He's trying to have it both ways though. He wants to support trump and then be like "nooooo! What are you talking about? We're neutral!"
Yeah, with the same Swiss neutrality that doesn't care whose teeth the gold came from.
Dave
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to Dave • • •AnimalsDream
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •He explains the 88 here-
reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/commen…
Ensign_Crab
in reply to AnimalsDream • • •AnimalsDream
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •Ferk
in reply to Dave • • •The reality is that being "anti-Nazi" is also a neutral stand. This is in the terms of service of Proton:
I don't think Proton is ok with Nazis, but I feel people wanted them to be also "anti-Trump", even if Trump does something to benefit privacy (which, as you hinted, is a neutral action that also benefits anti-Nazis).
Terms of Service | Proton
Protonkoper
in reply to Water_Melon_boy • • •sudoer777
in reply to ayyy • • •Ensign_Crab
in reply to 𝚐𝚕𝚘𝚠𝚒𝚎 • • •Dragon Rider (drag)
in reply to Jyek • • •sudneo
Unknown parent • • •ddh
in reply to Onyx376 • • •UniversalBasicJustice
in reply to ayyy • • •Petter1
in reply to Onyx376 • • •As swiss person I have to meet and talk to this guy, he can not be that stupid!
We definitely have something like the republicans party, it is called SVP (Schweizerische Volkspartei). SVP uses exactly the same tactics as republicans, like anti “woke”, anti regulation, anti common media, pro hate-speech(“anti censorship”), etc.
We just not have a single party to counter it, like democrats, but like 10 parties with little nuances.
We have some small parties besides SVP “on the republican site” but those tend to be irrelevant. Maybe, the anti corona party has a some relevance, still, but I guess their power is sinking.
I personally support the pirate party, which mainly stands for privacy, no matter if left or right, but the party it self is leading to the left (democratic) side.
At least, that is how I understand our situation here.
grrgyle
in reply to Petter1 • • •letum
in reply to grrgyle • • •They do have power. But it is split between around 4-5 bigger parties. Our federal council (similar to the President uf the US) is split into 7 persons, where the biggest parties get one or to seats. Like the mentioned SVP has "only" 2 seats and next big party the social Democrats have 2 seats as well.
What's nice in our system(in my opinion), there is no "The winner takes it all". Because our federal government is split between alot of parties, not one can "rule" alone. For every thing the want to pass, they need the support of multiple parties.
I wouldn't say we have ruling coalitions like you see in germany, but they do work-together if they have same goal.
lemonSqueezy
in reply to grrgyle • • •Petter1
in reply to grrgyle • • •We have two “Räte“ like groups that write the laws depending on the constitution (they give new laws back and forth until an agreement is found, and after agreement there can be a referendum made with enough signatures from the people that are allowed to vote, which then leads to a vote where the people who are allowed to vote have to confirm the new law). One of these “Rat” is a Voting where all people allow to vote choose which party gets how much seats in this “Rat” and in the same voting you choose people to place on this seats. (It is a bit complicated and here at the choosing of seats. Partys can work together and “combine lists” meaning that they collect seats together and split it up after). In the other “Rat” there are a defined number of people per Kanton (the states of switzerland) and those are chosen by each Kanton in their own way. Kantons are relatively free on how to organise their government, but most have a similar mechanism as what is done in federal level.
The Bundesrat (aka 7 presidents of switzerland) are chosen by the people in the Rat (I would have to check if both Rat get to say something, or if it is only the one with the lists). We have some unwritten laws in choosing the 7 persons in the Bundesrat. The general consensus is, that we have to ensure most diversity possible (political, gender, and all the other things), but of course, here we have discussions all the time as well.
☺️feel free to ask more
Doomsider
in reply to Petter1 • • •fatalicus
in reply to ayyy • • •sudneo
Unknown parent • • •This tweet happened right after trump picked for the antitrust position. The "time" is completely logical, the "place" is a tweet and the manner is a short statement supporting that pick.
Also proton is a US company, so it doesn't have the same reason to "bend the knee" as other US big tech are doing.
So it's not that I am ignoring context, I genuinely don't see relation.
He praised something that he pushes for years, he did not suddenly switch to "free speech" like Zuck.
HowManyNimons
in reply to fatalicus • • •intensely_human
in reply to Onyx376 • • •mortemtyrannis
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Aceticon
in reply to Onyx376 • • •The hypocrisy of many calling Trump a Nazi is mind boggling.
As far as I can tell Trump can only be deemed a Nazi by association - he's not been going around spouting stuff about people's races making them superior or inferior to others like an ethno-Fascist and instead he's been mostly using traditional Fascist dog whistles (I.e. about the superiority of the Nation), but since he has indeed cultivated the support of neo-nazis and other ethno-Fascists in the US, he's associating with Nazis.
The hypocrisy comes because the most Nazi ideology around right now is Zionism - they're ethno-Fascists, claiming to represent a race, going on and on about the superiority of their race (calling it "the chose people") whilst being overtly racist about Arabs in general and even more so Palestinians who they call "human animals", i.e. subhumans whis is literally untermenschen - and, even more extreme, they're mass murdering them right now by the hundreds of thousands.
Anybody who here and now calls Trump a Nazi due to his association with ethno-Fascists but has previously been defending Biden, Harris and most of the Democrat party as not being Nazis all the while they were actively supporting with weapons the present day Nazis who were actively engaged in a genocide along racial lines, is a hypocrite.
Ditto anybody going around criticizing people who chose to neither vote Democrat nor Republican: it is absolutely understandable that when people only have the choice between two sets of Nazis, many chose "neither". After all, if one is a Nazi by supporting Nazis, then the Republicans supporting of Nazis makes them Nazis and giving support to the Nazis-Republicans (for example by voting for them) makes one a Nazi and exactly in the same way the Democrats supporting the present day Nazis makes them Nazis, so supporting Nazi-Democrats makes one a Nazi - anybody who does indeed believe people can become "Nazi by association" land does not want to be a Nazi, would refuse to vote for either Nazi-by-association party.
I truly respect those with the genuine principles and ideological consistency of calling both main American parties Nazis (as I said, if one thinks associated with Nazi = Nazi, then logically they are both Nazis) or at least Nazi-supporting, because they are.
It's only the political tribalists for whom one group of Nazi-supporters are Nazis but the other group of Nazi-supporters are not Nazis because the former is "them" and the other is "us" who are despicable hypocrites.
DiachronicShear
in reply to Aceticon • • •Aceticon
in reply to DiachronicShear • • •Trumps is indeed a traditional Fascist.
Nazis, however, are ethno-Fascists, a far worse kind of Fascist, whose ideology is anchored on racial supremacy and who are far more prone to extreme violence.
Although traditional Fascists are violent, they don't just go around mass murdering people because of their ethnicity, whilst ethno-Fascists most definitely do.
In the present day the biggest and most powerful group of ethno-Fascists - i.e. the present day Nazis - are Zionists, though there are also white supremacists who are also ethno-Fascists (hence also present day Nazis) even if their violent ethnic cleansing acts are not yet to the level of Zionists and they have different lists of superior and inferior races.
So if one genuinely believes that people can be deemed Nazis by associating with Nazis (specifically Nazi-like groups, since the National Socialist Party Of The German Worker doesn't exist anymore, so there aren't strictly speaking any Nazis anymore), then one must believe that by association Trump and most of their party are Nazis because of supporting both Zionists (whilst they are engaged in genocide-level ethnic cleansing, no less) and white supremacists, AND so are Biden, Harris and most of their party for supporting Zionists.
If on the other hand one believes people can only be deemed a Nazi if they espouse an ideology of racial supremacy and murderous expulsion or annihilation of one or more races they see as sub-human ("human animals", "untermenschen") - i.e. ethno-Fascism - then Trump is not a Nazi, "just" a traditional Fascist (i.e. Mussolini rather than Hitler) and by the same logic Biden and Harris are not Nazis.
Those people who use one definition of what makes one a Nazi for Trump and a different one for the Democrat leadership, are hypocrites.
freethemedia
in reply to Aceticon • • •The absolute lockstep they move with Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin is textbook entanglement of military corporate hegemonic facism. I have zero problems calling the RNC the nu Nazi party and the DNC as the “polite” nazi party. Lowkey I feel like we need a new “anti-monopoly” political party if anything good is gonna happen in the next 30 years
Aceticon
in reply to freethemedia • • •Well, that I respect because it's all consistent.
It's the hypocrisy of using Nazi as a partisan political insult (all the while ignoring all the support going on for the real modern day Nazis in one's own party) that I find disgusting.
Tja
in reply to Aceticon • • •Aceticon
in reply to Tja • • •That is an absolutely valid take (assuming you really believe the principle rather than merely parroting the slogan), which would mean that Trump, most of the Republicans, Biden, Harris and most of the Democrats are Nazis, as are anybody who supports them in any way form or shape including with a vote, because all are "sitting wit h Nazis" by supportingnthem, which explains why some people simply refused to vote for either party (as they didn't want support Nazis).
You have my total respect if you genuinely believe that as a principle and hence apply it equally to all 11 people sitting on that table with the Nazi.
If however you do not apply that rule equally to all 11 people, and say that only some (Trump) are Nazis for sitting down with modern day Nazis whilst others (Biden) are not Nazis for sitting down with modern day Nazis, then you're just a hypocrite using the word Nazi as a slogan.
Sadly a lot of people here are just jumping on the "let's call Trump a Nazi" bandwagon and do not apply the same rule that justifies caling Trump a Nazi, to those in their own party (which the rule would deem as Nazi since they too wilfully "sit with Nazis") or accept that many people did not vote for their party or the other party exactly because they sawnthosnwhonsupport modern day Nazis as being themselves Nazis (exaxtly as per the sentence you quoted) and hence refuse to not support such Nazis.
TheFinn
in reply to Aceticon • • •You seem to forget that the Democrats ran against Trump. The extent to which they willingly "sat down with" him is the extent to which they were obligated. They weren't blithely enjoying his company at the table, they were arguing with him at it.
I suspect you know the difference and that you're arguing in bad faith.
Aceticon
in reply to TheFinn • • •You're using circular logic or missing my point entirely.
The Democrat leadership sat with Nazis because they support Zionists, who are the biggest group around promoting racial supremacy and ethnic cleansing, and even commiting a Genocide along ethnic lines, all of which are ethno-Fascist ideas, the same kind of ideology as Nazis.
Trump and the Rest of the Republicans sat with Nazis because they too support Zionist as well assupporting white supremacists (a smaller group of Nazis than Zionists and who at the moment aren't commiting Genocide, but who also have a racial supremacy and ethnic cleansing ideology, same as the Zionists and the original Nazis)
As far as I know, Trump himself has never defended racial supremacy or ethnic cleansing, so he is not directly a Nazi. However he definitely seats with Nazis, as does Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
It has nothing to do with seating with each other since it's perfectly possible for opposing groups to both be Nazis because they both support racials supremacist ideas and ethnic cleansing or support people who support those ideas.
If sitting with Nazis makes one a Nazi then everybody who supports Zionists, white supremacists or any other kind of extreme racist political movement which believes in their own racial supremacy and sees it as a reason to violently expel or eliminate people of ethnic groups they see as inferior, is a Nazi, which would means Trump, the Republicans, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and the Democrats are Nazis since they've been sitting with those who follow ideologies like Nazism.
TheFinn
in reply to Aceticon • • •So just an extra dose of whataboutism.
I don't plan to respond to anything else from you here.
cygnus
in reply to Aceticon • • •Trump says immigrants are "poisoning the blood of our country" nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elec…
Trump says immigrants are ‘poisoning the blood of our country.’ Biden campaign likens comments to Hitler.
Ginger Gibson (NBC News)Aceticon
in reply to cygnus • • •That's traditional Fascism, which is all about the nation.
Nazism would be "Latinos have been poisoning our White blood", a whole different ball game and far, far more prone to extreme violence in the form of things like ethnic cleansing.
If you want to see how present day Nazi ideology manifests itself, look at Zionists: they claim to represent an ethnicity, that their ethnicity are a superior people ("the chosen people") and that the neighbouring ethnicity whose land they invaded and who they are currently mass murdering are less than human ("human animals").
I have yet to see Trump claiming to represent whites, saying that whites are superior and wanting to invade Latin American and murder the latinos because of deeming them subhuman.
Don't get me wrong, Trump absolutely is a Fascist. However directly so far he doesn't seem to be a Nazi and if he is a Nazi because of who he "sits with" then so are the Democrats since they all sit with the Zionists, the biggest and most murderous Nazi-like ideology around.
The expression Mango Mussolini fits Trump so well exactly because he's a Fascist in the same vein as Mussolini, not the same vein as Hitler.
cygnus
in reply to Aceticon • • •Give me a fucking break. This is from the preamble to the Nuremberg Laws:
And Trump:
Aceticon
in reply to cygnus • • •"The German Nazi Party adopted and developed several racial hierarchical categorizations as an important part of its fascist ideology (Nazism) in order to justify enslavement, extermination, ethnic persecution and other atrocities against ethnicities which it deemed genetically or culturally inferior. The Aryan race is a pseudoscientific concept that emerged in the late-19th century to describe people who descend from the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a racial grouping and it was accepted by Nazi thinkers. The Nazis considered the putative "Aryan race" a superior "master race" with Germanic peoples as representative of Nordic race being best branch"
(Source)
In their ideology, German people and Arian Race were the same thing, same as Zionists conflate Israeli with Jewish.
All you proved with your decontextualized quote is that Nazis also claimed to support Germans (which makes sense, as ethno-Fascists are a kind of Fascist hence also use the "love of the nation" in their speeches). That doesn't disprove that they had an ideology of racial superiority, saw other ethnicities as inferiors and committed Genocide along ethnic lines which is what makes the not merely Fascists but actually Nazis (and the reason why people remember them still, whilst almost nobody remembers the parties of the traditional Fascists such as Mussolini or Franco).
To back your claims that Trump is a Nazi rather than "just" a traditional Fascist, you need to show that he has the kind additional ideology elements that made the Nazis be something else (much much worse) than merely Fascists and that's the whole rabid violent racism thing.
racist foundations of Nazism
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)cygnus
in reply to Aceticon • • •davel
in reply to Aceticon • • •I don’t know why this distinction without a difference is a hill you want to die on. In terms of fighting fascists—which is all that matters—there’s nothing to be gained by distinguishing between Nazism and sparkling fascism. People who subscribe to Nazi exceptionalism don’t understand what fascism is, what its function is and for whom it functions (hint: it functions for the capitalist class, as a false revolution).
en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Fascism
Fascism - ProleWiki
ProleWikiYozul
in reply to Aceticon • • •UrPartnerInCrime
in reply to Aceticon • • •I just hate when I'm hanging out with a bunch of racist gamers and people think I'm a racist gamer too. Sure, they may say some really inappropriate stuff I laugh at. And sure, I may not stop them when they're ruthlessly mocking some poor person of color, but I myself didn't do it so why would people think I'm a part of them? Everytime we go out to eat they treat all of us like we're terrible people, but really it's just them. I don't get it.
(This was sarcasm. I don't hang with racists but I didn't know how else to paint the picture clearly. Thats how your argument sounded though)
Arthur Besse
in reply to Aceticon • • •you mean like this? rollingstone.com/politics/poli…
What is the Racehorse Theory? Trump Touts White Supremacy in Minnesota
Tim Dickinson (Rolling Stone)Ensign_Crab
in reply to fatalicus • • •Moineau
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Korne127
in reply to Moineau • • •Uh what? I don’t think "a few Europeans on discord" is any representative way. Although I think we have a bigger west east decide (sometimes even per country), but in Western (or northern or even southern) Europe that’s definitely more accepted than in the US.
And European representative surveys have shown trump would have lost like 80:20 here.
dan00
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Totally in good faith. A post from last year? Yea, suck my dick andy. Deleting my account asap.
FilthyHookerSpit
in reply to dan00 • • •ChillPill
in reply to dan00 • • •Two months ago
FTFY
Victor
in reply to Onyx376 • • •komplexLCG
in reply to Onyx376 • • •Gammelfisch
in reply to Onyx376 • • •The Suisse should return Andy to Taiwan and the ROC can ship his ass off to mainland China to enjoy life under a dictatorship.
Reddit...f that noise.
phx
Unknown parent • • •phx
in reply to Ensign_Crab • • •The Bard in Green
in reply to Onyx376 • • •enbyecho
in reply to Onyx376 • • •vga
in reply to enbyecho • • •Everyone is totally just winging it, all the time
Oliver Burkeman (The Guardian)enbyecho
in reply to vga • • •vga
in reply to enbyecho • • •Spectre
in reply to Onyx376 • • •M1nds3nd
in reply to Spectre • • •x0x7
in reply to Spectre • • •And also a reminder that Switzerland flirted with actual nazism. Remember that whole "neutral" during WWII thing. That was really finlandization of Switzerland from western powers. They operated inside the German economic block.
So telling a swiss company that Trump is a nazi and association with anything even 0.0000001% a nazi would be outside of what you'd expect for a Swiss is kind of funny.
The only thing Nazi-like about Trump is his support of Israel committing a genocide against people who are in the way of Israel's Lebensraum.
vga
in reply to x0x7 • • •a Kendrick fan
in reply to Spectre • • •Spectre
in reply to a Kendrick fan • • •njm1314
Unknown parent • • •Victor
Unknown parent • • •Matt
in reply to Onyx376 • • •SwordInStone
in reply to Onyx376 • • •vga
in reply to SwordInStone • • •SwordInStone
in reply to vga • • •りん〜
in reply to vga • • •nbailey
in reply to Onyx376 • • •TGS
Unknown parent • • •Why in your view is it mutually exclusive? To address any problem one first has to identify that there is in fact a problem. Calling it out where it exists IS that identification. It isn't about "labels" it's about identifying what needs to be dealt with and make no mistake there are a lot of people who don't want to acknowledge the problem and if anything what you're doing is exactly the shit the fascists do by forcing the side wanting to fight fascism to moderate its language on the belief that if we use that language against the fascists the fascists will dig into their fascism... as if they aren't doing that anyway.
In fact letting the right-wing control the narrative no matter what happens is in large part why we are where we are and why this shit needs to be called out, identified, labelled and opposed at every point with whatever means are necessary.