Dear @Gargron,
Please reevaluate your decision to incentivise centralisation on mastodon.social in the official app.
This is the sort of design a VC-funded startup would implement, not a non-profit acting in the interests of a healthy commons.
I’m sure you don’t want mastodon.social to become mini-Twitter and you don’t want to become mini-Musk.
That’s not how we win this.
More instances, not larger instances is the key.
https://mastodon.ar.al/@feditips@mstdn.social/110233282943673558
#decentralisation #fediverse #staySmall
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Troed Sångberg
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •... but I think this is the right move to enable frictionless signups. However, it's now critically important to implement the one-click _complete_ account migration between servers as well.
Basically mastodon.social needs to encourage users to move on from spawn.
#Mastodon
Benjamin
in reply to Troed Sångberg • • •So I can empathize with the intention here.
Nour Agha :popos:
in reply to Benjamin • • •Benjamin
in reply to Nour Agha :popos: • • •Maybe a more @pixelfed approach would be better? Main server is the first option but other options aren’t behind a secondary action.
Nour Agha :popos:
in reply to Benjamin • • •Nour Agha :popos:
in reply to Nour Agha :popos: • • •Gabe Kangas
in reply to Nour Agha :popos: • • •Laurens Hof
in reply to Gabe Kangas • • •Like, is the signup flow from an app really the best place to explain this? I think its hard to say that it is, but at the same time, lock-in and complacency will still mean that lots of people end up on m.s.
Personally, I think the best solution would be to get even more competing easy signup flows. Think this problem will get less relevant when things like mozilla.social launches and people can easily end up on their server with a SSO firefox account.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Nour Agha :popos:
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Gabe Kangas
in reply to Nour Agha :popos: • • •Mastodon
Mastodon hosted on mastodon.socialNour Agha :popos:
in reply to Gabe Kangas • • •Mr. Teatime
in reply to Benjamin • • •wouldn't a better (though harder-to-implement...) way be to have some sort of instance suggestion engine?
You give it some keywords and what's important to you and it gives you some instances and picks one at random if you're unsure which one to use.
I spent days choosing an instance, and of course that should be made easier. But we all know how immensely powerful defaults are -- this could go quite wrong.
@troed@aral@gargron
Benjamin
in reply to Mr. Teatime • • •Having said that - I still don't know what a typical user's experience of this would be.
Subhadeep Jasu
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •bison ✅
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Poliverso - notizie dal fediverso
in reply to Aral Balkan • •Thanks for your appeal! We are administrators of a Friendica instance, but we are also great Mastodon enthusiasts (we also have an Italian instance dedicated to journalism and science!) and we would be very sorry if @Eugen Rochko insisted on this centralized strategy! W the federation, w decentralization, w the Fediverse distributed everywhere!
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skua
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •#MastodonAppDefaultInstance
ROWΛN
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Of course there is room for improvement:
• If we want to rotate between instances, and preselect, you want them all to behave consistently. There needs to be a common rule of admin/moderation/community. Think of it as selecting between World of Warcraft realms.
• Make moving between instances significantly easier. Offer it as an simple UI option on web and app.
Karin Sorenby
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •hybrid havoc :1m: :rm:
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •cc: @Gargron
Tim Chambers
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •But wouldn’t the solution here be a “round-robin” where the app recommended a fast sign on - super easy - but changed every X sign ups to recommend a different server? Each one hand chosen to be of high quality, well federated, high uptime, etc?
That to me would give the best of both worlds. Address THE biggest pain point to new users, plus decentralize the new user glow around the Fediverse.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
❄️ freezr ❄️
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •EdenDestroyer
in reply to ❄️ freezr ❄️ • • •#Calckey for the win!
thomkennon
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •❄️ freezr ❄️
Unknown parent • • •Hughster
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •https://mastodon.social/@hughster/110233387007247555
Hughster
2023-04-20 21:59:59
Folker
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Dear @Gargron,
Please keep your decision to make the Mastodon app more user friendly.
That's how we win this.
More user friendlyness, not a walled garden for nerds is the key.
❄️ freezr ❄️
Unknown parent • • •Perhaps it would be better having more people contributing to the Fediverse making easier creating new servers and so on... Even this case it is about education...
AveN7ers
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Beandog9
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Roberto :verified_gay: :verified_gay: :verified_gay: :verified_gay:
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •There need to be a balance between ease of registration and promotion of the decentralized nature of the #Fediverse.
Please @Gargron consider the following instead: show a small, curated list of recommended servers.
You can keep mastodon.social at the top of the list and left it selected by default if you want. But it is important to show the user since the start that this is a decentralized platform, and that there are more servers available to join.
You can use the same criteria as joinmastodon to build that list (servers with enough active users and open registrations for less friction), and maybe also give extra points to language and regional based instances, which are key to attract and keep non-English speakers around.
Regards!
stereo griever
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Paul and Eve
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •absc
Unknown parent • • •It seems to be an american thing that you must "compete" with the Facebook, or the Twitters of this world.
There is no common goal, stop that.
You never lived during the BBS period, do you?
If mastodon.social wants to become the new twitter, we will take care of defederating it.
I didn't came to the fediverse to see the same crap of the commercial social networks. Thanks but bo thanks.
Is this being elitist? Oh yes it is and I would like for this corner of the world to remain small and enjoyable.
I don't need another eternal September.
Tregast the Bumbling
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Jons Mostovojs
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Jons Mostovojs • • •*golf claps*
@Gargron
Jons Mostovojs
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Remember, picking a server is a big barrier for new users, so unless #mastodon has a "choose server wizard" a la #peertube, I don't know how would one make "pick my own server" a UX default.
Codesmith
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Step 1: Implement *actual* account portability. Posts, likes, and everything.
Step 2: Create an instance and call it something like welcome.mastodon.social.
Step 3: All new accounts through the app go to welcome.mastodon.social. Still the same super easy onboarding which is what the current change does help with.
Step 4: After a few months, once they have had time to understand how things work with different instances, *require* people to move from welcome.mastodon.social and provide a list of many options to do so.
This way people can get into things without the challenge of picking a server right away (I myself balked at the task 3 times before finally making my account). I think that easy onboarding is a reasonable goal. But over time my approach avoids having one massive instance which signing everyone straight up for mastodon.social and not providing actual account portability does.
ɟloʍ
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •The good thing is, that there are more possibilities in the fediverse.
Marquis Kurt :xcode:
in reply to absc • • •And if being elitist is the only way something is enjoyable for you, I think there are bigger issues there.
absc
in reply to Marquis Kurt :xcode: • • •Now a question. When you say "we" about improving the user experience, "we" who, exactly?
Because the fediverse is not Mastodon.
I host my own Honk instance, others uses Pleroma. There is Gotosocial and snac2 and all the others.
I'm sorry to say there is no "we", but a losely coupled set of servers that appears to speak the same protocol.
Do you want to make the experience to sign to mastodon.social easier? Feel free. But please, stop conflating the fediverse with this.
As I said, when the mass on mastodon.social will become critical, the rest of the administrators managing othet fediverse instances will just defederate it as it's their right.
Mastodon.social will become the equivalent of truth.social and that's ok.
It's the beauty of a federated infrastructure.
❄️ freezr ❄️
in reply to absc • • •I don't recall it...
Todor Hlebarov
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •It's Just Jenn 🏳️⚧️
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Shadow Heart
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Deuchnord
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •And also, I’m convinced that mastodon.social and mastodon.online are already too big today. Please, @Gargron, consider closing the subscription and invite newcomers to find an existing instance or create their own one.
We really should make sure Mastodon keeps being a decentralized network. 😔
PJ Coffey
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •In November, POC accounts were getting banned and accused of racism which, I assure you, is what many people know Mastodon for now. No, that's not fair, but you only make one 1st impression.
How on earth is mastodon.social going to keep up with an exponential growth in users and need for smart experienced mods? I'd love to hear from server owners!
#ModerationIsWork #Moderation
Shoq
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Among other consequences, this may dump all over those who have aggressively sold people on the idea that the fediverse was a new approach to social networking, not just a marketing hook for the Mastodon brand.
Why not a public onboarding server supported by all the servers who want to pull new users exploring 1st fedi access? Everyone is then on an equal footing.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 reshared this.
riffle
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Letting people know that other instances exist is going to be an ongoing thing.
Pxtl
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •A more sensible goal is more seamless migration so that you can switch servers quickly and efficiently without losing your history.
Tom Walker
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •It extremely isn't. There's a "pick your own server" button right there. It's trying to smooth out the process for new users so the very first screen isn't a big explanation of what an instance is.
Hyperbole is not how we win this, etc.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Tom Walker • • •This isn’t hyperbole.
It’s not even conjecture.
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Tim Chambers
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral: if on the server side there were a round-robin where it swapped out to which server was featured assuming a good mix of X number of different servers benefited - would you object to this UI/UX design from either Mammoth or others?
Aral Balkan
in reply to Tim Chambers • • •On the other hand, if the Mastodon app implemented round-robin, no, of course I wouldn’t have an objection to that. That’s how it should be.
Toni :mastodon:
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •More instances, not larger instances is the key.
@Gargron
Asheville Charlie
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •🙃 ɐıunp zsɐɯoʇ :idle:
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •My opinion on the subject is that such action doesn’t threaten the decentralization of Fediverse. The fact that there will be more people on one instance doesn’t change the fact that you can create your server, on your hardware, with your rules and still federate.
On the other hand, do we really need people here who are so lazy that they don't even want to choose a server, but instead are waiting for the button, which will do everything for them?
𝗌𝗆𝗈𝗄𝗎
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •In distributed systems like GNUnet or IPFS, every node entering the network empowers the whole system.
Node leaving the network does not disturb the consistency of network.
Aral Balkan
in reply to 𝗌𝗆𝗈𝗄𝗎 • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Crowley :verifiedbi:
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •@Gargron
moved
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Nour Agha :popos:
Unknown parent • • •Gabe Kangas
in reply to Nour Agha :popos: • • •1. Embrace. Use the email standards such as SMTP to talk to other email servers.
2. Extend. Encourage all email users to use your service by making it the default and positioning yourself as "the server" via applications and partnerships, eventually adding features that are limited to your mail interface.
3. Extinguish. Say that all other mail servers that aren't yours are spam and block them.
If you don't see how this could happen on the Fediverse today then I don't know what to tell you.
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Gjalt-Jorn Peters
in reply to Gabe Kangas • • •(this is a sincere question / 'hypothesis', this isn't my field so I don't know much about these dynamics 🙂)
Aral Balkan
in reply to Gjalt-Jorn Peters • • •See, for example, https://small-tech.org/research-and-development/
R&D
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Gjalt-Jorn Peters
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Gjalt-Jorn Peters • • •Gjalt-Jorn Peters
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Reiner Jung
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •Jürgen Hubert
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •I don't agree with this decision either, but I can understand why this choice was made.
Aral Balkan
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •#design #decentralisation #mastodon #fediverse #falseDichotomy
Aral Balkan
Unknown parent • • •Jyrgen N
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •The second attempt, later, a year ago, I chose a server that seemed local, but as I saw was home of a special community that I wasn't a part of. I had to change instances, quite annoying. Then after some senseless pondering I chose one with short domain name. >>
Nour Agha :popos:
in reply to Gabe Kangas • • •Chris
Unknown parent • • •I'll be putting my hopes for actual change into truly decentralized approaches. #ssb or #SmallWeb
Nour Agha :popos:
Unknown parent • • •Aral Balkan
in reply to Chris • • •Mr. Teatime
in reply to Aral Balkan • • •There can never be a waterthight law, or 100% stable political system, or purely technical solution for a socio-economical problen.
but there are of course technical arrangement that make things easier or harder, and encourage/discourage certain behaviour, and anyone making technology and pretending otherwise is not honest. We absolutely need things that are better in this regard: empower people, and prevent domination.
@matherion@gabek@laurenshof@Nour