The continued growth of mastodon.social is putting the #Fediverse in danger (here's why: fedi.tips/its-a-really-bad-ideβ¦).
The quickest, easiest and most effective way to solve this would be if the official apps & website stopped promoting mastodon.social, and instead promoted a rotating selection from a pool of reliable servers with solid track records.
If you're comfortable using Github, please give thumbs up to all these:
- github.com/mastodon/mastodon-aβ¦
- github.com/mastodon/mastodon-iβ¦
- github.com/mastodon/joinmastodβ¦
Replace "Join mastodon.social" button on front page with button promoting rotating third party server from pool of reliable servers
At the moment the front page of JoinMastodon is implying that people who want to join Mastodon should join mastodon.social. This is causing the Fediverse to centralise, as the percentage of active ...FediVideos (GitHub)
Questa voce Γ¨ stata modificata (3 settimane fa)
reshared this
Charlotte Aten
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System)
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System) • • •I am not one of the people who attacks Eugen personally, he's done more than anyone to popularise the Fediverse, we owe him. I don't agree with people who attack him.
But he doesn't really respond to criticism, and for some reason none of the others at Mastodon gGmbH respond about this issue either.
The only action Masto gGmbH has taken in response to my posts about this is banning me from trending on mastodon.social (that's why FediTips posts don't ever trend there any more).
Still Nmyownworld
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Sensitive content
Anson
in reply to Still Nmyownworld • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Anson • • •@ansonkennedy
If you just want one suggestion a very similar and equally reliable alternative large alternative would be mas.to
If you want a selection of good medium-sized servers to choose from, you can find some at fedi.garden all of which are human-curated and have to be compatible with certain requirements listed at fedi.garden/about-this-site/
Fedi.Garden
fedi.gardenlxskllr
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •@ansonkennedy
What's your opinion of .world? I picked this cause someone I was interested in was here, but didn't give it any thought. It's absolutely default, and reliable. The "default" is bad cause it's only 500 character toot limit, but otherwise, it works well.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to lxskllr • • •@lxskllr
I don't know much about it, but it is up to date on the latest version, it has a detailed published code of conduct, it has multiple staff, its admin has posted recently and it has been operating since 2022 so those are good signs.
Its about page is at mastodon.world/about
Mastodon
Mastodon hosted on mastodon.worldMastodon Migration reshared this.
Still Nmyownworld
in reply to Still Nmyownworld • • •Sensitive content
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Still Nmyownworld • • •@Still_Nimmy @Eeveecraft
Oh yeah, neither would I, and I don't think it's the fault of moderators on mastodon.social.
I think this problem is due to the leadership at Mastodon gGmbH, and they are the only ones who need to respond about this.
elenlaw
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Niko Trimmel
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •> and for some reason none of the others at Mastodon gGmbH respond about this issue either.
That is untrue, Andy Piper replied to the last popular Mastodon thread about this issue, saying that they will communicate about this issue soon
@Eeveecraft
Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System)
in reply to Niko Trimmel • • •@nitrml
@FediTips
I don't see any post by an Andy Piper in any of the threads OP linked.
Niko Trimmel
in reply to Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System) • • •@Eeveecraft
macaw.social/@andypiper/115493β¦
@FediTips
Andy Piper
2025-11-04 20:23:58
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Niko Trimmel • • •They just published a new blog post and it doesn't mention this topic at all π
I'm guessing they will never respond on this.
Glowing Cat of the Nuclear Wastelands
in reply to Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System) • • •@FediTips@social.growyourown.services
Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System)
in reply to Glowing Cat of the Nuclear Wastelands • • •@deathkitten
Paradoxically, by letting the instance they own balloon in size, they have to pour more and more resources into maintaining it.
So regardless, they have to spend more resources, and they chose to spend resources that's leading to the Fediverse being more centralized.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System) • • •Doug
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •They have the resource no other instance has, so there is no pressure to add better moderation controls that appreciate and respect the federated nature of moderating non-flagship instances.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Doug • • •@doug
Yeah, there's too much power in one place:
-Main devs of most popular server software
-By far largest donations of any Fedi project
-Owners of by far largest server
-Owners of by far most used apps
-Owners of trademarks that let them control use of word "Mastodon" on social networks
...if they get majority of Fediverse users too, that would make a heck of a package for a takeover.
Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System)
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Wait, I just read this blog post:
blog.joinmastodon.org/2023/05/β¦
And I gotta admit, that is a cowardly response. Their excuse literally just is, "Because it's easier!" You know what else is easier? Centralized platforms. Does that mean they're better? No. We pay for convenience with our freedom.
This line is especially stupid, "This gives us a far better chance of showcasing what decentralized social networks have to offer instead of having that person bounce and never hearing from them again." How does growing an instance to 30+% of the userbase "showcase what decentralized social networks have to offer"??? Doesn't that literally do the opposite? And then they buried their heads in the sand and haven't addressed it since. That's pathetic.
A new onboarding experience on Mastodon
Mastodon BlogMatthew likes this.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Luigi.exe (Dragonheart System) • • •Yeah, they should have transitioned it to promoting one rotating server from a pool of servers, and then it would have been just as easy for beginners but would have spread the growth out to stop it centralising.
They can still do this now, and I'm hopeful they see sense on this π
MsMerope
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •is that your local timeline is not a fire hose.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •I feel like when people ask for randomly assigned servers, there's a strange forgetfulness about which specific problem the default server was meant to solve.
Among people who signed up in 2022, the biggest reason (by far!) why people involuntarily left β that is, wanted to keep using Mastodon but failed to β was that they changed phones or browsers or just wanted to sign in on another device, and couldn't because they didn't know what server they were on.
Evan Prodromou reshared this.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •We can't be telling people βdon't worry too much about all that server stuff for nowβ and also βoh you don't know if your account was on mstdn.social or mas.to, then you're just outta luck sorryβ.
We also know that asking fedi newcomers to pick their own server does not work. Your suggestion addresses this point.
My conclusion is that having a default server for all newbies (not invited by a friend) is the best practical approach. Somewhere people can get their bearings.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian
1. There is nothing about mastodon.social that makes it more friendly for newbies. It is technically identical to signing up on any Mastodon server.
2. People learn how to do stuff. I have spent most of my free time for the past five years dealing with new people on here and they are not as brainless or incurious as you are making out.
3. Saying most people cannot remember the name of their server while also expecting them to be able to move their account is contradictory.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •@julian
When I posted warning about this in 2023 I had no end of people telling me "Oh you are worrying too much, mastodon.social is just for new people, they'll move on to other servers".
Back then mastodon.social was about 10-15% of active Fedi.
Now Mastodon.social is almost 30% of active Fedi.
Are we going to have the same conversation in another couple of years when mastodon.social is over 50% of the Fedi?
Why would anyone join Mastodon if it's mostly on one server? What is the point?
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian
It's not a big problem, it's an existential problem. There is no reason for the Fediverse to exist if most of it is on one server.
When I posted about this in 2023 on FediTips, mastodon.social's only response was to ban me from their trends.
When I posted about this in 2025 on my personal account, mastodon.social's only response was to ban that account from their trends as well.
This is not a sign of an organisation dragging its feet, it is burying its head or worse.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •I feel like this exchange is unfolding less constructively than I had hoped. Did I come in too combative? I was hoping for more βwhat do we do about this togetherβ than βyour thoughts are worthlessβ.
I sure would love if I had any quant research to point to about the forgotten server issue, but I don't know if anyone did any.
I remain convinced that there are more fruitful paths to shrink m.s than to rotate the default server. It could be worth doing anyway, I'm not sure.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •1. Right. The point is that it is the same server for everyone. So people can do logins and password resets without knowing what server they were assigned.
2. I'm sorry, but this was widespread. I had multiple people in my circles who bounced off of Mastodon because they couldn't remember their server. I believe @evan verified this as well.
3. I would expect them to move after learning what servers mean and which ones could fit them. How long this takes will differ per person.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian
You're basically suggesting killing the Fediverse for the sake of making it easier.
Do you know what percentage will "bounce" if it no longer has any advantages over much bigger alternatives?
What, exactly, is the point of a Fediverse that operates on one server? Where is the advantage over Bluesky or Twitter/X for that matter?
There would be nothing left of it, it would be just another centralised network owned by a single company that eventually enshittifies.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •@julian
"I would expect them to move after learning what servers mean and which ones could fit them. How long this takes will differ per person."
It has been two years since this was suggested and it just has not happened, the percentage on mastodon.social has gone from 15ish to 30ish.
The process of moving could be simplified but it will ALWAYS be more complex than the process of remembering whether you signed up on mastodon.social or mas.to. It is not realistic to rely on this path.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Moving accounts will always be a nontrivial process, but after some weeks or months on fedi, people will be more equipped to pick a server they can identify with than they are to remember a random server during initial signup.
And I'm not saying to cross our fingers and hope they'll move on their own. We could do in-app reminders for m.s users, server recommendations like yours, maybe even gradual throttling of overly long-lived m.s accounts. There is room for more ideas.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian
Telling people to sign up on mastodon.social and then punishing them for signing up on mastodon.social is (with all due respect) not a good idea. It will make people feel gaslighted by Mastodon and put them off the network completely.
Encouraging people to choose a different server to begin with and helping them to do this is innately the most effective way to spread growth out. We know this because it worked when they did this.
Travis F W
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •sorry for crashing the middle of your debate but that's how I'd handle it: with the client-side database. and then immediately export settings, maybe with a file including the name of the instance.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Travis F W • • •@travisfw
I run a website at fedi.garden to help people discover good well-run servers. All of them are human-curated and comply with seven points listed at fedi.garden/about-this-site/
There are also wizard sites but I wouldn't recommend them as AFAIK none of them curate the servers they list, so they may be directing people to unreliable or unsafe servers.
Fedi.Garden
fedi.gardenTravis F W
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •you do, I know, and you are awesome, and I haven't checked it in a while but thank you.
are any client apps funneling people to your site?
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •It isn't a punishment if m.s can be conceptualized as a transitionary tutorial server. Kind of a βGreat Plateauβ of Mastodon, if you've played Zelda BOTW.
I think there can be a design where it feels natural to have an area that people are expected to leave once they get their training wheels off, especially if the migration process is improved to include posts, update conversation threads, contain fewer UI steps, etc.
River
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •@julian I'd like to point out that small, sustained growth over time while sticking to founding principles is infinitely more beneficial to users of the network, as compared to viral success at the cost of abandoning those principles.
I wanna see Mastodon take off big as much as everyone else, but not if that just means another tech monopoly that has a cool open protocol for a while before they finally extinguish when some billionaire buys it and decides to lock everyone in and start enshittifying.
That's basically how I see this tradeoff. Some users are gonna take longer to get on, but hey, at least that way, the thing they're getting on is a decentralized network, not a single platform that is only open in theory.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to River • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian @riverpunk
Hey, look, I'm sorry I was getting heated in my other replies to you. I am not being polite or fair, I shouldn't be being so direct. I know we are on the same side.
I know you disagree with me on this specific issue but you're laying out your arguments carefully and sincerely and I should be respect that more.
Apologies. I will try to take a calmer approach to replies in future.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •I appreciate that! No hard feelings. π Feel free to let me know if I overstepped anywhere.
I think the passion to find a solution is appreciated, and few people here have put more personal energy into it than you.
@riverpunk
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •And yes, I understand the cons.
IMHO the path forward is to improve the scope & simplicity of the account moving process, and then encouraging people on m.s to use it after some time. Not to abolish the default server.
I've been holding my tongue on this since @andypiper said Mastodon may reply to this with a blog post. But I hope we can acknowledge that a βrotating serversβ suggestion is incomplete without an idea to (unobtrusively but reliably) teach people about their own server.
River
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian @andypiper Suppose we created a shortlist of servers. (Maybe something like 8 or 10?) We give each server a simple little icon. You know, like, "house" "bird" "cup" "mail". Each user then just remembers this little associated ID, acting basically as a shortname or a checksum for the full server name. Then they just remember "I'm johnsmith with the little bird icon".
Maybe we don't like the icons, we use something else. Some other piece of memorized data that's a hell of a lot easier to keep in your head then some domain name that looks just like all the other domain names. As servers come and go, we add new icons (or whatever thing we pick) to the list to represent new servers on the shortlist of possible servers.
Just an idea is all.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to River • • •@riverpunk @julian @andypiper
People learn stuff when they find it useful. My granny knew dozens of phone numbers off by heart because she used them regularly. How many people today know a single phone number off by heart?
If people get used to servers, they will remember them.
If you never ever expose people to servers, they will never even have a chance to learn.
wolfkin
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •@riverpunk @julian @andypiper I still remember my best friend's phone number. and I could dial it faster than my own. I got it in about half a second once. It was a wild day.
But I agree that remembering your server isn't too much to ask like remembering your email domain. Also it's only nature now that we have password managers. They're plentiful. They're easy to use. You can manage them manually or cloud based. Password managers are perfect for things like putting in your server
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •One key might be to stop encouraging people to join barely-memorable servers with which they have no real-world affinity, and instead encourage people to launch their own servers for a group which they have a real connection to, like their employer, university, city, family, church, club, or similar.
I don't forget my work email address because I know where I work.
It's a lot harder but long-term retention will be better.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •Julian Fietkau
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •@evan @andypiper 100% for setting up small servers. The Fediverse is almost certainly best off with lots of fairly small and fairly socially cohesive servers.
There is, however, a mismatch between the suggestion to set up a server and the audience of people who have heard about Mastodon somewhere and are willing to download an app to give it a shot. We're veering close to the βthe Fediverse is built for tech-savvy peopleβ kind of elitism that I'm personally hoping we can grow out of.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •We need to give options for every kind of person who wants to join.
The option this thread is about is the kind of person who just wants to be told one server to sign up on, which is why the official apps and site currently say "sign up on mastodon.social".
All Masto gGmbH have to do is swap out mastodon.social and insert a server from a pool of reliable servers with equal or better track records.
That would then serve people who just want to be told one server.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Evan Prodromou • • •I run a site at growyourown.services to help and encourage non-technical people to create their own instances through managed hosting servers (which don't require any tech knowledge nowadays). It would be great if more people did this π
But I'm not sure how this helps prevent centralisation caused by the "sign up with mastodon.social" button? By definition the people who click on that are the ones who don't click on "Pick another server".
Grow Your Own Services β A beginner's guide to creating your own little corner of the Internet
growyourown.servicesUlrike Hahn
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •@UlrikeHahn @julian
Exactly. The solution is obvious, there are many servers with similarly reliable track records, promote one of those.
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •This is something I continue to think about a lot. I thought changing the default was a bad decision at the time and haven't changed my mind! It's not just the centralization aspects of it; it's also that (based on retention rates) most people don't have a good experience on .social -- so they wind up leaving fedi.
Rotating the default doesn't seem to me like it would address the :"good experience" aspect of the problem. For most people who are looking for a Twitter-like experience, .social's as good an approximation as anywhere else in fedi -- not great, but other instances aren't any better. And for people who are looking for a local community that aligns with their interests or geography, they're not going to find it on other largeish open-registration instances (and it doesn't make sense to have anything but a largesish open-registration instance as the default).
@julian
@FediTips @UlrikeHahn
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •Approaches that might work better involve integrating a good instance picker into the signup process, or an onboarding flow that treats the initial instance as a "starter instance", a base for exploring that makes it easy to move to another instance. Realistically though it's not clearly how likely it is that Mastodon gGmbH will prioritize the work that's needed to support either of these -- which isn't an argument against pushing for them, just that we should be looking for other alternatives as well.
In general it seems to me that might be better to focus our efforts in terms of making it easier to join communities in fedi as a whole, not just Mastodon. For many people something other than a Mastodon-based instance may well be a better choice. Of course that still leaves the problem of people who search for "mastodon", or have read an article about Mastodon and followed the links to either the Mastodon app or joinmastodon ... but I don't know how to address those without Mastodon gGmbH's cooperation,
@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •And actually I'd go farther and say it might be better to focus on community-led alternatives to commercial social networks in general -- not just fedi. For people looking for a US-focused, Black-centric microblogging experience, Blacksky might well be the best option today (and as Northsky becomes more real, that's likely to be a good option for a North American-focused 2SLGBTQIA+-centric microblogging experience). For people looking for a Palestinian-friendly photo/video-sharing app, Upscrolled might be a good option even though it's not decentralized.
@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
Laurens Hof
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy
I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)
@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •It's a great point. Fediverse Observer still h as this info and from a quick pass it seems like the only new Mastodon instances with > 1K MAU that have started in the last two years are qlub, a quΓ©bΓ©cois social network, and the alt-right server noauthority.social (which isn't completely new, since it was a split from noagenda.social). There are also a handful of peertube, wordpress, nodebb, and snac (!) instances.
( fediverse.observer/list and sort by Active Users)
@laurenshof @julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
Fediverse Observer checks all sites in the fediverse and gives you an easy way to find a home from a map or list or automatically.
fediverse.observerUlrike Hahn
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •The best instances for new people are smaller instances. They have admins that are easy to get hold of, friendly, and tend to be very tightly moderated because they have a much higher moderator to user ratio.
You don't need a starter instance, you just need to be sending people to well-run instances that have been operating with a good track record for years (which you can find at fedi.garden/servers-sorted-by-β¦ for example).
Servers sorted by founding year | Fedi.Garden
fedi.gardenLaurens Hof
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •imo a core problem is that perceptually, an app is usually tied software (the mastodon app) instead of network (the fediverse app) or server (the indiewebsocial app)
@thenexusofprivacy @julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Mo-Me is leaning into this dynamic. For #MediaLiberationDay, it was very useful to be able to point people to Mo-Me to get started (as oppose to "start by picking an instance" or "start on .social"). And I wouldn't call it a "paddling pool" since it's got pretty rich functionality and is fully federated, but it's definitely an example of what I think of as a "starter instance".
One of the challenges with the app focus though is it's likely to reinforce the default tendency on flagship instances. If I want to use Piefed-the-app, it's natural to sign up on piefed.social; even though they're putting a lot of work into helping people choose an instance when they sign up (and kudos to them for doing it!), why not just sign up on piefed.social? It's hard to answer that without talking about instances and why they matter!
@laurenshof @julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
Laurens Hof
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy
Yeah MoMe is a great example
I get your point on how app focus also increases flagship importance. But I think that also partially points to that we keep trying to see the platform software as neutral with all expressions of community coming from servers, and Iβm increasingly starting to feel thatβs a dead end
@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn
Ulrike Hahn
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •@UlrikeHahn @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @julian
Whatever you suggest, please say something that doesn't involve centralisation.
This isn't meant to be a thread about how to do onboarding, it's a thread about how to stop centralisation.
In this particular case it's a badly-conceived onboarding mechanism that is causing the problem, but the problem itself is the centralisation.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn Anecdotally, I have been in contact with a professional association that is cautiously interested in hosting a Mastodon server for (possibly) a few hundred MAU in Germany, but is very scared of the social media liability laws that have gone into effect lately, some of them on pretty short notice.
Talking to them is an interesting mix of βwe don't have a mandate to take this kind of riskβ and βif we can't figure this out, then who can?β
Ulrike Hahn
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •Managed Mastodon
joinmastodon.orgFedi.Tips π
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •There are already many good independent managed hosting services for Masto and Fedi instances such as masto.host or fedihost.co or cloud68.co
It would be even more centralisation if Mastodon gGmbH was hosting other instances, they would become even more tempting for corporations to buy out.
Masto.host - Fully Managed Mastodon Hosting
Masto.hostJulian Fietkau
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@UlrikeHahn' has also brought up the idea of something similar to a "tutorial server" with limited functionality ... it's intriguing. one challenge is how to get enough interesting stuff there for people to decide it's worth exploring further. If it's just a tutorial that people have to go through to get to the next stage, then the risk is that unless folks are really really committed they're likely to lose interest.
@julian @FediTips
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •"Rotating the default doesn't seem to me like it would address the :"good experience" aspect of the problem."
It's not about that at all, it's not about UI or UX.
The problem is about what happens to the network if it centralises. There are many important reasons why the Fediverse is decentralised: fedi.tips/why-is-the-fediverseβ¦
All these reason get squashed if mastodon.social becomes over 50% of the network. The network would eventually "enshittify".
Why is the Fediverse on so many separate servers? | Fedi.Tips β An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tipsThe Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •We're looking at things differently.
From my perspective, .social's steadily increasing percentage of Mastodon users is only part of the onboarding problem. Any improvements are going to require either a significant change of attitude from Mastodon gGmbH or a completely different way of thinking about onboarding -- or both! So I'm more interested in trying to address the issues more broadly.
You're separating it into different problems, which is also a valid way of looking at it ... but if the problems are interetwined, then there's no guarantee that the effort put into making progress on one problem gets things noticeably closer to an overall solution. My guess is that we have different intuitions about how decomposable the overall problem is.
@FediTips @UlrikeHahn @julian
Ulrike Hahn
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian @thenexusofprivacy very much yes to the tutorial server idea (I think of it in terms of a paddling poolβ¦) and the idea would very much be you get funnelled out if it once youβve got a basic understanding of what choosing a server actually entails and to what extent it does (and doesnβt) matter.
(but if all we have is a default server then it would still be better they rotated, and default servers should also be exceptionally well moderated to qualifyβ¦)
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
Currently they are presented with these two buttons:
"Sign up on mastodon.social"
"Pick another server"
Funnelling people into a tutorial they didn't ask for, and then forcing them to leave the server they asked to sign up on... it doesn't seem like a good idea? Surely it will confuse and annoy people?
If there is a tutorial make it appear on whatever server they choose and make it optional. You don't need everyone on one server to do tutorials.
Ulrike Hahn
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy
It's fine to have an optional tutorial, that would be a great resource.
βPick another serverβ
βGet started here and pick one laterβ
These would be good options, but so many people say they just want to get started straight away without any picking, that they would demand a "Sign up on (XXXXX)" option too.
So this would give 3 options:
"Sign up on (featured rotating server from reliable pool)"
"Pick another server"
"Tutorial server to help you choose"
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •We've got years of experience showing that people are more likely to have a good experience on smaller well-moderated instances than on large open-registration instances, let alone badly-moderated or unstable open-registration instances. So today's options are really
One way to look at a "paddling pool" or "tutiorial server" is that it's a way for people to get going immediately with something on the path to finding the well-moderated smaller. It seems to me that could work if there's a way for it to be interesting enough (and well-moderated enough) that they feel that they're getting value and it's worth exploring more. Otherwise it's likely to be a barrier for most people. But then again, if people who go through it actually wind up getting to an instance that's a good match, it might still result in more people having a good experience. Hard to know!
@FediTips @UlrikeHahn @julian
ophiocephalic π
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy
[snickering at "fediverse paddle pool"]
@FediTips @UlrikeHahn @julian
cmdr β nova βΈΈ :~$ π³οΈββ§οΈ
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to cmdr β nova βΈΈ :~$ π³οΈββ§οΈ • • •That's a factor, although I think it starts even earlier. In the late 2022 wave, Mastodon got all the media attention; and, they continue to get most of the media attention. So that's why people wind up wanting to "join mastodon" at which point they find either joinmastodon.org or the Mastodon app.
Given those dynamics, yeah, Mastodon gGmbH could rework joinmastodon.org and the Mastdon app so they're more "join the fediverse" . But they are Mastodon so (even though I think they'd be better off going that route) I can certainly see why they haven't done that.
@cmdr_nova @UlrikeHahn @julian @FediTips
Julian Fietkau
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn Yes, exactly on point. The best case scenario for the Fediverse is a rough alignment of servers with cohesive communities, because if the community matches the infrastructure, that's good for moderation, long-term stability, and the day-to-day experience of each individual. A default server can't provide that.
Ideally, everyone would join fedi by being invited to a well-moderated small-to-medium server by a friend.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian @thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn
"Ideally, everyone would join fedi by being invited to a well-moderated small-to-medium server by a friend."
That is what I am trying to encourage on fedi.garden for example, which are all well-moderated small-to-medium servers.
But the people who visit such sites aren't going to be the ones who click on "Sign up on mastodon.social". It's that button that is causing the problem this thread is about.
Fedi.Garden
fedi.gardenJulian Fietkau
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •@UlrikeHahn My central point is about how rotating the default server solves none of this. π Except the difficulty of deciding on a server.
I mean, what do we expect to happen when people forget their server name? Should the password reset process ask people whether they signed up during October or November?
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •"I mean, what do we expect to happen when people forget their server name?"
Speaking as someone who has actually provided tech support for this over the past 5 years, people can find the name of their server on the email they received when they signed up.
People cannot sign up without an email, and *they always receive an email with the name of their server on it*
This is not the massive barrier you are making it out to be. They can just check their email if they forget.
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •prunelier
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •The notion of "server "is unknown for a random new user. How could they remember its name ?
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to prunelier • • •@prunelier @julian @UlrikeHahn
The new user will learn, the same way they learn the integral features on Twitter or Tiktok or Instagram or whatever. They are always adding new features that people didn't know before, but people get used to them.
Servers are an integral part of why the Fediverse exists. Without them, the Fedi has no reason to exist at all. It's better to explain them instead of trying to centralise the network.
Ulrike Hahn
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •beyond that, people understand that email can come from different providers, as can their sim card, as can their broadband as can they cable tv. I donβt see anything anything fundamentally more complicated in βremembering oneβs serverβ beyond that that couldnβt be solved with appropriate explanation (βyour server is your access provider, you will need to hold on to these detailsβ¦β), but I could be missing something hereβ¦
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Ulrike Hahn • • •@UlrikeHahn I think difficulty choosing a server was the biggest reason that stopped people from signing up at all in 2022. But people who managed to pick a server and then forgot it were also a surprisingly large group.
The whole βit's kinda like emailβ clichΓ© originated in part in the desire to convey the ways in which your server matters. But Mastodon newcomers mostly thought βmaking a Mastodon accountβ β βmaking a Twitter accountβ, i.e. that your username and password are enough.
Tom Casavant
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian
This definitely introduces other issues, but I wonder if you could force someone to remember their server by just requiring it when you sign in, i.e. the username they type in is the full user@mastodon.social. Or at the very least allowing you to login with the full username (and then if you attempted to login to a different mastodon frontend it would just redirect you because it has your domain now)
Though as I was typing this I checked the login process for mastodon and you actually just use an email, so probably renders this point moot.
@UlrikeHahn @FediTips
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Tom Casavant • • •It's already as easy and simple as it can get:
-Everyone has to have an email to sign up
-Everyone who signs up gets an email that has the name of their server
-If you forget the server name, you just look up the email by searching for "mastodon"
Forcing people to type stuff in etc makes it unnecessarily difficult. All they have to do is search their email.
Silmathoron β
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •If that is really a problem that is cited as an answer to the rotating server idea, I think it's a non-issue.
@FediTips
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Silmathoron β • • •@silmathoron
"is to either send them an email "
This is the thing, literally every person who signs up on Mastodon gets an email telling them the name of their server.
Evan Prodromou
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •Noisytoot
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Noisytoot • • •@noisytoot @julian
All they have to do is search all their email apps for the word "mastodon".
Bruce Elrick
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian
Is the sign-up email for a single software such as Mastodon predictable/regular enough that 80% of those cases could be solved by advising people to search for some text in their email?
Like if the default sign-up email contained "Mastodon" and when server admins customized it, there would naturally be a low chance they'd edit it radically enough to remove that word.
Or similarly, if a convention was established to include the word "fediverse", would that help?
/shrug/
Bruce Elrick
in reply to Bruce Elrick • • •Hmmm... This is encouraging... My journey in a simple email search:
Julian Fietkau
in reply to Bruce Elrick • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Julian Fietkau • • •@julian @virtuous_sloth
"Like if the default sign-up email contained "Mastodon" and when server admins customized it, there would naturally be a low chance they'd edit it radically enough to remove that word."
If you signed up to a Mastodon server, the email will contain the word "mastodon" even if the server is called something else.
Chertridge
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •p.s. To avoid repetition of replies:
-If people forget name of server they signed up on, it's written on the email they received when they signed up.
-Mastodon.social is in no way more reliable or easier than other servers with similar or better track records.
-If Mastodon gGmbH does not trust anyone else to run a server properly, why should anyone else trust Mastodon gGmbH to run a server properly? "Trust me, but I won't trust you" is a terrible argument in a collaborative project.
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen reshared this.
Eladriagon
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •i wonder how we balance this with the "average user" (yes, i'm looking at you, tech-illiterate aunt sally) not knowing what a server is, how to find one, or what choosing one entails.
i only bring this up as mastodon (the software) wishes to become a more widespread social platform/solution versus the competition, so this type of first-experience UX should be considered carefully
to be clear, i don't think we should push users towards mastodon.social β but how is that done elegantly?
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Eladriagon • • •@eladriagon
None of the UX needs to change at all, they just need to change the server they are putting on the front page of the site and app.
Instead of promoting mastodon.social they have a reliable third party server that has a good track record that's similar or better than mastodon.social.
For a user the UX would all be exactly the same, but the growth would be spread out on more servers.
Fedi.Tips π
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •p.p.s. Thanks for all the replies, they are interesting and thought-out but many seem to be addressing slightly different topics?
This particular problem of centralisation is being caused by a very specific thing: the "Sign up on mastodon.social" button on the official apps and official site.
If we want to stop this wave of centralisation, we need to focus on changing this button so that it no longer directs people to mastodon.social.
The Fediverse is unique and precious, let's not lose it.
Lynn I π½ π
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •haui
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •I might be wrong but wouldnt it be best if all instances held votes about the topic and presented mastodon social with the results?
Its just base democracy. They can of course disagree but it would set a sign.
Chris Lilley π΄σ §σ ’σ ³σ £σ ΄σ Ώ
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •xinit β
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •ΧΧΧΧ (ΧΧ©ΧΧ ΧΧͺ) ποΈ
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to ΧΧΧΧ (ΧΧ©ΧΧ ΧΧͺ) ποΈ • • •@yuvalne
You can discover your server address by checking your emails, everyone who signs up gets an email from their server π
If necessary you could search the emails for "mastodon".
Niko Poikulainen
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Tom
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Fedi.Tips π
Unknown parent • • •I don't know if there are any easy technical ways to enforce an upper limit, but it would be very easy to have an upper limit on listings on websites/apps that recommend servers to join. That way the bigger servers wouldn't get as much publicity, while the smaller servers would get more publicity.
I've tried to do that on my server guide at fedi.garden where I only list servers below a certain size and then unlist them when they've grown larger than the limit.
Fedi.Garden
fedi.gardenprunelier
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •When I need a new server, I looked on the list of servers to pick one dedicated to my profile or with general purpose. None of them was open to new registration.
So I finally went to mastodon.social .
So is it the problem of mastodon.social or is it because they are not enough servers open ? Or because they are not well listed ?
prunelier
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •If the second option is choosed, then a small form appears, and the list of open servers which fits with your answers appears.
Jimmothy Baggins
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •while I get your point to some degree , mastodon is still a decentralized service that allows with little friction to create and use whatever instance you want.
No matter how big or how many uses one instance gets no one is forcing you to use it. You start on the company owned instance and once you get comfortable you move on.
Itβs clear the most vocal set of people are developers or at least Linux power uses are very comfortable with unstable and sometimes poor users experiences.
Poor non easy to use UE is not how one grows a social media network. Social media is as popular as it is because itβs so easy.
You complicate things you only alienate the mainstream .
If the company ever gated , blocked or just even deeply hid how to add or join servers in the Fediverse then Iβd have a hard time.
But considering the current situation I believe our time and energy is best concentrated on bitching about other far more pressing issues.
Steve's Place
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •When I started here, I looked at a page of servers and wound up choosing the big one. I'm a musician, a programmer, I create video games, and I rant about politics. None of the smaller servers with focuses had that combo. I wondered if talking about other things would be disapproved of. A large, nebulous server seemed right for me to start with.
Later, when I decided to make a private server, I kept the old m.s account to use in power failures. I post new releases on both servers. Although m.s is growing, perhaps a good number of accounts are similarly dormant until needed.
One way to ease entry might be to have a page where a new user checks off their interests, and the closest-fitting instances are offered. They needn't all be mastodon. Servers indicate areas of interest (and also if they welcome general/political/off-topic conversation).
Fwiw, I'm considering opening up my servers to the public next year, should anyone be interested in moderating. Every bit helps, I guess.
wolfkin
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Nick
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •I added this comment to the third issue:
github.com/mastodon/joinmastodβ¦
Replace "Join mastodon.social" button on front page with button promoting rotating third party server from pool of reliable servers
FediVideos (GitHub)MidgePhoto
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •I wandered over here because the categorical server I joined was taken over by people with an agenda, and firm opinions on how everyone else should use the Fediverse. Also rude and threatening, and blocked this which had a half-dozen people I followed or vice versa.
Why did other people choose this server?
Encourage movement: promote specific interest groups.
We do need another photography server. Or three.
#tips #howto #hownotto #FailureModes #manners
SpaceLifeForm
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Pxl Phile
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •KielKontrovers Blog
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •β§β¦Catherineβ¦β§
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •WhoDisturbsMySlumber
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Fedi.Tips π
in reply to WhoDisturbsMySlumber • • •@WhoDisturbsMySlumber
You can find lots of well-run reliable creative servers listed at fedi.garden/tag/art-crafts-andβ¦
For example sunny.garden is good π
Art, Crafts and Creativity | Fedi.Garden
fedi.gardenLance Homer
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •Miro Collas
in reply to Fedi.Tips π • • •