We need to talk more about reducing "tone policing" here. I understand you want people to use content warnings, but guess what? They don't have to! If they don't do it, just unfollow them.
But please, don't harass them. That's what drove away our last big wave.
Do whatever you need to feel safe, but harassing people to your standards doesn't make THEM feel safe. Stop it.
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Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •I generally agree with the sentiment here, I'd just add that the appropriate use of CWs should be clearly stated in the server rules, and posts breaking them should be reported to the server's admin to handle, rather than a bunch of people from different servers forming a perhaps well-meaning mob and repeating the same message.
Have you seen this poll, by the way?
stefanbohacek.online/@stefan/1…
Nicely shows how leading by example works best!
Stefan Bohacek (@stefan@stefanbohacek.online)
Stefan Bohacek (Stefan's Personal Mastodon Server)Scott Jenson
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •@stefan I completely agree! If it's part of your server rules then by all means, but it's up to the folks of that server to enforce, not some rando that doesn't like your hashtag.
I'm not saying never use CWs, I'm saying don't lecture people about it.
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •Yep, we're definitely on the same page here.
I do trust that people mean well when they do this, but a big part of the issue, I think, has been the fact that federation hasn't always worked so well before, so when you reply to someone to tell them about how to use CWs or alt text, you might not see 10 other people doing the same.
Thomas Svensson 🖖
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •Would like to suggest combining "tone policing" with how we can make it easier for new users to grasp how every instance can set their own "rules" for their users - often in a CoC and/or ToS.
But within limits, as otherwise risk getting defederated.
Some guidelines on making it easy for users to find someones home instance and the rules it has could also be good. Both for instance admins and users.
Oblomov
in reply to Thomas Svensson 🖖 • • •Scott Jenson
in reply to Oblomov • • •Thomas Svensson 🖖
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov
I've now been a mod on a top 10 instance for half a year. During that time been exposed to quite a few reports. Many that the team have discussed how to handle, where I have learned a ton from my much more experienced team mates.
It has been humbling about so many things needed to make the fediverse a good place. Not just for us who fit in already. Also for many more, including those it will be a challenge adjusting to how things work here - from what they are used to.
@scottjenson
Blain Smith
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •marionline
in reply to Blain Smith • • •@blainsmith I don't think it's such a problem, at least I haven't seen it be with the people I follow....
I guess it's a kind gesture to put CW if you know that some people don't want to see/can't see without panic, e.g. spiders.
I don't think such warnings are a bad thing in general. Things get bad if done excessively and we all may draw that line in different places. 🤷
Then again I make use of filters a lot to block out posts about politics. I like that I can easily unto filters and read posts anyway.
Thib
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •I don't have any data about the usefulness of Content Warnings but I can't think of a use case not already covered by filters.
I rely on filters for content I don't want to see, and I don't need CW to match it. Are there cases where CWs catch what filters don't?
Scott Jenson
in reply to Thib • • •@thibaultamartin I don't think it matters as many people never use CWs the "right way" so will never be caught properly.
Btw, I'm not saying we should never use CWs there could be some strong content that a server wants to always be me marked. But that's up to server admins to enforce not randos yelling at newcomers
Oblomov
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •Scott Jenson
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •I've already had a few randos in my mentions trying to tell me either:
1) It's ok to correct people if done politely
Just because you use polite words doesn't mean it's polite. If you're giving people advice they didn't ask for, you're harassing them.
2) My request was a form of tone policing
Asking people to not harass others is not "tone policing", it's basic trust and safety. It's that classic sad defence that "you're intolerant too!" if you call out intolerance.
Ummmm, no
Scott Jenson
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •Normally I wouldn't engage but I feel strongly we need to have this discussion and call out this almost entirely white male issue.
The entire Mastodon team is working really hard to add features to bring in more people, in a safe way. It doesn't do any good if these guys just chase them away!
Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •Have you considered this idea?
stefanbohacek.online/@stefan/1…
Stefan Bohacek
2024-10-24 13:36:26
Scott Jenson
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •Stefan Bohacek
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •Ha, yes, just joking about being a bit more forceful with the messaging.
But yes, I do recall this feature, is it being considered for the web interface?
Scott Jenson
in reply to Stefan Bohacek • • •william.maggos
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •the distinction we should make is re tagging others, not what you post with nobody tagged. when tagging others, be super considerate. if it might come off as nagging, don't do it.
I want us to be the social media network for everyone, but some do not want us to get bigger and most of those people are the reason this place survived the leanest years. that's tough to deal with. it's a huge conversation, esp when we're the only design that can handle that size well. ugh.
Scott Jenson
in reply to william.maggos • • •@wjmaggos I appreciate your points, we all want this to be an inclusive, safe place.
My only issue is that giving people advice they didn't ask for, is still aggressive. It doesn't matter if you use nice words.
This needs to be solved at the instance level. Police your instance all you want, get the culture you want there. But leave other instances alone. It just doesn't scale to think you can "fix" the other 10000.
If they're not doing it the way you want, then unfollow them
william.maggos
in reply to Scott Jenson • • •not sure we disagree.
but I also want a place where people disagree without being disagreeable. I want people to interact here like they would IRL. I want to be corrected sometimes. I want to see stuff I think is wrong or untrue sometimes. it's harder without many of the social cues we have IRL but trying to make this a place where we never see something upsetting won't be good either. it's very much like the web + email. it should be open but not annoying or people won't use it.
Scott Jenson
in reply to william.maggos • • •@wjmaggos As an old white guy, I've had a personal journey here. It's taken me awhile to understand that being comfortable with being corrected is a privileged place. To see that others didn't have this same comfort level was a big step, but it was also difficult to see how correcting people without being asked is an intrusion. It may be welcome some of the time, but it's still an intrusion.
But this is a very general point. I'm just saying to do this over CWs just feels so unnecessary.
Poliverso - notizie dal Fediverso ⁂
in reply to Scott Jenson • •Users can report any rule violations to us moderators either through the integrated reporting system or by direct message. If they don't receive a satisfactory response, they can mute or block that user. But they shouldn't harass other users, otherwise the social Fediverse will be under such pressure that only the troublemakers will remain.
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