New type of data up on arewedecentralizedyet.online/ - what does the software ecosystem in the Fediverse look like? This is an area where the Fediverse is more centralized, with Mastodon quite dominant, but there are of course many other suites in use as well!
Thanks for this important work. Great job in putting a live number next to a topic many people care about, explaining the methodology for general audiences, and visualising it so nicely.
It would maybe be interesting to see the @matrix or @signalapp network, now that you seem to have expanded this project beyond AP and AT. But I realise this all takes time and is a lot of work. Thanks again!
@mellifluousbox @matrix @signalapp @FediThing yeah my understanding is that the shape of the Signal network is sufficiently different that it wouldn't be a great point of comparison. And it's probably private enough to make the equivalent measurements impossible to capture, for good reasons
There's no network to measure the decentralisation of. Signal is a single service, controlled by a single operator, hosted on hyperscalers (AWS and a couple of others). It's 100% centralised, by design.
But like @mellifluousbox, I'd love to see the decentralisation of the @matrix network added to your site. Also XMPP and Nostr.
The maintainers of of the Molly fork are currently on a project called Flatline, an independent Signal server. It's said to be ready for first releases in the 2nd quarter of 2026. I'm curious. Especially if/how it will communicate with the Signal server itself as this always was not the case. I don't know if that policy has changed. Also it's said it'll just work with Molly (Android), as long as nobody will develop another client.
@FediThing That is the interesting question. Signal itself always refused that. But Moxie left Signal and there might be a change in that case. I'm sure the forks will communicate. Otherwise the project would not make sense at all.
@morph > The maintainers of of the Molly fork are currently on a project called Flatline, an independent Signal server
I don't understand the purpose of this. You can set up an independent Signal server right now by standing up an instance of the server code Signal publish;
softwaremill.com/what-ive-lear… (trying to avoid linking to GritHub and this is an interesting tour through the architecture).
@morph > I'm sure the forks will communicate. Otherwise the project would not make sense at all
Agreed. There's simply be no point in reimplementing otherwise.
Hopefully using an existing federation standard like XMPP or Matrix. In the best case scenario, this proof-of-concept will convince the post-Moxie management of Signal to embrace interoperability. Pressure from EU regulators enforcing DMA is probably nudging them in that direction anyway.
@strypey I'd anyway hope for a "Renaissance" of XMPP. For server load and usability. I prefer XMPP to [matrix] which is pretty good of course, especially for voice and video (I personally don't use that). Though [matrix] is expensive regarding ressources. In the past you saw people accepted XMPP when it was commonly in use by many providers. Meanwhile with OMEMO you have out-of-the-box encryption, compared to OTR annoyance in the past. P.S. AFAIK the matrix protocol is not a w3 standard.
I'm not convinced. I'd like to see benchmarking data on the performance of a 2026 matrix server running Matrix 2.0, and an XMPP server using sufficient XEPs to do everything that matrix server does, *including* fully decentralised rooms. I doubt the resource use would be much different.
At the risk of splitting hairs, neither is XMPP, it's an IETF standard. But yes, Matrix has not yet been reviewed by an independent standards body. It would be good to see matrix standardised at W3C, since it's effectively a web protocol.
That said, Matrix Foundation folks have shown they're more than happy to participate in standards processes. Such as the MLS working group at IETF.
@strypey For a single user it should not be a problem to run. I have Prosody, Synypse, Nextcloud and Mastodon (the worst ressource eater) on the same machine. No performance issues but the database...
@strypey I guess their main goal is to get a server setup without the need of third party stuff (Google, AWS, etc) that you'd need for a an own Signal server, which (as I understood it and was the case in the past) would anyway not communicate with their official servers for security reasons. Yet with Molly you have a FOSS client (also on tablet) and with Molly Socket you can have UnifiedPush instead of FCM. So they build sth. on server side to fill the gap.
> get a server setup without the need of third party stuff (Google, AWS, etc)
But why? It's like Delta Chat building Chatserver. They're both reinventing a wheel that was already invented as XMPP and then reinvented as matrix. Why not just make Molly (or DC) work as a client for XMPP and/or Matrix servers instead of writing a standalone server from scratch?
I guess they have their reasons, and I'm curious to know what they are.
As said I'd be happy just with XMPP. It's just still things like the Thunderbird chat implementation does not support OMEMO, for Pidgin you'd need Lurch for OMEMO. Not to speak of PGP. It's not just yourself you need for a chat infrastructure. You need somebody who wants it, too. 😁 Therefore I'm grateful to have Signal (or Molly) at least. Quite some of my (so-called) RL people use it. Even my Mum (>70yo) prefers it to WhatsApp or Skype (RIP).
@morph > Therefore I'm grateful to have Signal (or Molly) at least. Quite some of my (so-called) RL people use it
That's a reason for Molly to exist, so people can access the Signal silo with a fully libre client, available in F-Droid. What I'm asking is, why reimplement the Signal *server*? I guessed at a motivation here;
So that suggests a motivation, and one I'm sympathetic to. Maybe once Flatline is working as a PoC, the devs will start implementing an interop standard like XMPP or Matrix?
You're invited to talk on Matrix. If you don't already have a client this link will help you pick one, and join the conversation. If you already have one, this link will help you join the conversation
@strypey Last but not least, call your Mum on the the telephone. Make a date. Take a bus (or train?). Have a lunch or dinner. Perfect, too ... not, isn`t it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's what I do. Some of my family use Meta Messenger and WhatSapp, so I communicate with them using SMS and mobile calling, and email. I had some success with getting them to try Delta Chat, but it didn't stick. They're not even interested in trying XMPP or Matrix.
@strypey No you cannot do it right now, which is why the flatline project is actually about trying to actually deploy the server-side code. The Signal server repo is not "hey look you can deploy this, follow the instructions of the readme", it seems. nlnet.nl/project/Flatline/
So that suggests a motivation, and one I'm sympathetic to. Maybe once Flatline is working as a PoC, the devs will start implementing an interop standard like XMPP or Matrix?
> get a server setup without the need of third party stuff (Google, AWS, etc)
But why? It's like Delta Chat building Chatserver. They're both reinventing a wheel that was already invented as XMPP and then reinvented as matrix. Why not just make Molly (or DC) work as a client for XMPP and/or Matrix servers instead of writing a standalone server from scratch?
I guess they have their reasons, and I'm curious to know what they are.
@strypey I don't know the people being flatline, so I can't speak for their motivations. I wish they reach a point where I can `podman run flatline` so it makes developing codeberg.org/slidge/slidgnal easier for @alex and me 😀
You're invited to talk on Matrix. If you don't already have a client this link will help you pick one, and join the conversation. If you already have one, this link will help you join the conversation
Felix Hlatky
in reply to Rob Ricci • • •Rob Ricci
in reply to Felix Hlatky • • •Felix Hlatky
in reply to Rob Ricci • • •FediThing
in reply to Felix Hlatky • • •Felix Hlatky
in reply to FediThing • • •FediThing
in reply to Felix Hlatky • • •@mellifluousbox
AFAIK @signalapp refuses to accept traffic from other instances?
Would be very happy if I'm wrong 🙂
Rob Ricci
in reply to FediThing • • •Strypey
in reply to Rob Ricci • • •> the shape of the Signal network
There's no network to measure the decentralisation of. Signal is a single service, controlled by a single operator, hosted on hyperscalers (AWS and a couple of others). It's 100% centralised, by design.
But like @mellifluousbox, I'd love to see the decentralisation of the @matrix network added to your site. Also XMPP and Nostr.
@FediThing
morph
in reply to Strypey • • •The maintainers of of the Molly fork are currently on a project called Flatline, an independent Signal server. It's said to be ready for first releases in the 2nd quarter of 2026. I'm curious. Especially if/how it will communicate with the Signal server itself as this always was not the case. I don't know if that policy has changed. Also it's said it'll just work with Molly (Android), as long as nobody will develop another client.
@ricci @mellifluousbox @matrix @FediThing
FediThing
in reply to morph • • •Does it have any way of connecting to other instances? Not necessarily the main Signal platform but other people who are trying to set up forks?
Is it plausible people could set up a federated fork of Signal?
morph
in reply to FediThing • • •@FediThing That is the interesting question. Signal itself always refused that. But Moxie left Signal and there might be a change in that case. I'm sure the forks will communicate. Otherwise the project would not make sense at all.
@strypey @ricci @mellifluousbox @matrix
Strypey
in reply to morph • • •(1/2)
@morph
> The maintainers of of the Molly fork are currently on a project called Flatline, an independent Signal server
I don't understand the purpose of this. You can set up an independent Signal server right now by standing up an instance of the server code Signal publish;
softwaremill.com/what-ive-lear… (trying to avoid linking to GritHub and this is an interesting tour through the architecture).
Therefore ...
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
What I've learned from Signal server source code | SoftwareMill
SoftwareMillStrypey
in reply to Strypey • • •(2/2)
@morph
> I'm sure the forks will communicate. Otherwise the project would not make sense at all
Agreed. There's simply be no point in reimplementing otherwise.
Hopefully using an existing federation standard like XMPP or Matrix. In the best case scenario, this proof-of-concept will convince the post-Moxie management of Signal to embrace interoperability. Pressure from EU regulators enforcing DMA is probably nudging them in that direction anyway.
morph
in reply to Strypey • • •P.S. AFAIK the matrix protocol is not a w3 standard.
Strypey
in reply to morph • • •(1/2)
@morph
> matrix is expensive regarding resources
I'm not convinced. I'd like to see benchmarking data on the performance of a 2026 matrix server running Matrix 2.0, and an XMPP server using sufficient XEPs to do everything that matrix server does, *including* fully decentralised rooms. I doubt the resource use would be much different.
Strypey
in reply to Strypey • • •(2/2)
@morph
> matrix protocol is not a w3 standard
At the risk of splitting hairs, neither is XMPP, it's an IETF standard. But yes, Matrix has not yet been reviewed by an independent standards body. It would be good to see matrix standardised at W3C, since it's effectively a web protocol.
That said, Matrix Foundation folks have shown they're more than happy to participate in standards processes. Such as the MLS working group at IETF.
Sean Tilley likes this.
morph
in reply to Strypey • • •morph
in reply to Strypey • • •@strypey I guess their main goal is to get a server setup without the need of third party stuff (Google, AWS, etc) that you'd need for a an own Signal server, which (as I understood it and was the case in the past) would anyway not communicate with their official servers for security reasons. Yet with Molly you have a FOSS client (also on tablet) and with Molly Socket you can have UnifiedPush instead of FCM. So they build sth. on server side to fill the gap.
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
Strypey
in reply to morph • • •> get a server setup without the need of third party stuff (Google, AWS, etc)
But why? It's like Delta Chat building Chatserver. They're both reinventing a wheel that was already invented as XMPP and then reinvented as matrix. Why not just make Molly (or DC) work as a client for XMPP and/or Matrix servers instead of writing a standalone server from scratch?
I guess they have their reasons, and I'm curious to know what they are.
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
morph
in reply to Strypey • • •As said I'd be happy just with XMPP. It's just still things like the Thunderbird chat implementation does not support OMEMO, for Pidgin you'd need Lurch for OMEMO. Not to speak of PGP. It's not just yourself you need for a chat infrastructure. You need somebody who wants it, too. 😁
Therefore I'm grateful to have Signal (or Molly) at least. Quite some of my (so-called) RL people use it. Even my Mum (>70yo) prefers it to WhatsApp or Skype (RIP).
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
Strypey
in reply to morph • • •@morph
> Therefore I'm grateful to have Signal (or Molly) at least. Quite some of my (so-called) RL people use it
That's a reason for Molly to exist, so people can access the Signal silo with a fully libre client, available in F-Droid. What I'm asking is, why reimplement the Signal *server*? I guessed at a motivation here;
mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/115…
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
Strypey
2026-01-24 22:39:47
morph
in reply to Strypey • • •I can't give a proper answer. Get in for information on their channel.
matrix.to/#/#mollyim:matrix.or…
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
Matrix - Decentralised and secure communication
matrix.tomorph
in reply to morph • • •@strypey
Last but not least, call your Mum on the the telephone. Make a date. Take a bus (or train?). Have a lunch or dinner. Perfect, too ... not, isn`t it?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
Strypey
in reply to morph • • •@morph
> call your Mum on the the telephone
That's what I do. Some of my family use Meta Messenger and WhatSapp, so I communicate with them using SMS and mobile calling, and email. I had some success with getting them to try Delta Chat, but it didn't stick. They're not even interested in trying XMPP or Matrix.
@FediThing @ricci @mellifluousbox
Nicoco
in reply to Strypey • • •No you cannot do it right now, which is why the flatline project is actually about trying to actually deploy the server-side code. The Signal server repo is not "hey look you can deploy this, follow the instructions of the readme", it seems.
nlnet.nl/project/Flatline/
NLnet; Flatline Server
nlnet.nlStrypey
in reply to Nicoco • • •@nicoco
> you cannot do it right now
Ok, I stand corrected. #MeaCulpa
> the flatline project is ... about trying to ... deploy the server-side code
But why?
mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/115…
The NlNet link mentions;
"... proposals for further research into decentralizing Signal."
nlnet.nl/project/Flatline/
So that suggests a motivation, and one I'm sympathetic to. Maybe once Flatline is working as a PoC, the devs will start implementing an interop standard like XMPP or Matrix?
#chat #Signal
NLnet; Flatline Server
nlnet.nlStrypey
2026-01-24 22:31:59
Nicoco
in reply to Strypey • • •I don't know the people being flatline, so I can't speak for their motivations.
I wish they reach a point where I can `podman run flatline` so it makes developing codeberg.org/slidge/slidgnal easier for @alex and me 😀
slidgnal
Codeberg.orgStrypey
in reply to Nicoco • • •@nicoco
> I wish they reach a point where I can `podman run flatline`
Maybe you could ask them about that in their chat room?
matrix.to/#/#mollyim:matrix.or…
@alex
Matrix - Decentralised and secure communication
matrix.to