“When you respond to comments from the fediverse on your blog, they will now be federated. This allows you to finally engage in (threaded) communication back and forth directly from the comment section of your blog!”
So, we’re doing context collapse as a service, then.
Fuck this is such a bad idea. Blog comments have a context. You remove comments from that context, you harm your commenters and your sanity.
fediversereport.com/wordpress-…
[share author='Laurens Hof' profile='https://fediversereport.com/author/laurenshof/' avatar='https://poliverso.org/photo/206608119366e42c304ffac007248590-5.jpeg?ts=1765017471' link='https://fediversereport.com/wordpress-activitypub-plugin-updates-to-v2-0/' posted='2024-01-10 15:16:26' guid='08552256-051996b9e3f1dfce-aee2e24b' message_id='https://fediversereport.com/wordpress-activitypub-plugin-updates-to-v2-0/']WordPress ActivityPub plugin updates to v2.0
The WordPress ActivityPub plugin has been updated to version 2.0. The major feature of the release is better comment federation. Comments are now properly threaded, which makes it much easier to follow and understand threads where people are replying to each other. Comments are now also bidirectionally federated. Creator @pfefferle explains:
“When you respond to comments from the fediverse on your blog, they will now be federated. This allows you to finally engage in (threaded) communication back and forth directly from the comment section of your blog!”
This makes the plugin more valuable for bloggers who do not have another fediverse account for example, allowing them to respond directly from the blog, with their responses now showing up in the fediverse as well.
Comments made by people who use the reply feature on the website itself do not get federated. Pfefferle explains that this is mainly a legal question for GDPR compliance. Work is still continuing on the plugin: Pfefferle mentions working with the Akismet team to make sure that it’s spam detection system also works with ActivityPub, as well as working on a Profile Editor UI.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •they are not out of context, because only comments that have context will be federated!
I understand that this is not perfect, but we are working hard to have the best possible solution in the end!
If you have some ideas how to improve the implementation, please let us know! We are always open for discussions and improvements!
jwz
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •@pfefferle Wow, this thread went deep! A few points (split into a few parts because some jackass decided that the artificial scacity of a 500 character limit makes conversations better) --
• In this corner we have @fraying is saying "community collapse of federating comments is unexpected, needs great care and is probably bad". That argument has weight.
1/3
jwz
in reply to jwz • • •2/3
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to jwz • • •@jwz you can simply disable the local comments system and you have an easy to understand, only fully federated comment system for your blog! No context breaks, no mix of federated and local comments, …
The problem only comes with the mix and because WordPress has such a history of local comments I do not want to force users to deactivate them.
To your point share everything, hash usernames: I think THAT is problematic because users do not expect THESE comments to be federated!
jwz
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •It is bonkers to claim that mirroring A->B is unexpected but that mirroring B->A is not. Both are unexpected, unless you expect it! The most unexpected thing is doing one and not doing the other. Are you mirroring or not? Pick a lane. The reason that you have done A->B and not B->A because it is technically simpler. That's fair! But don't talk yourself into believing that because something is hard or even impossible that it is not also correct.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to jwz • • •please don't make assumptions about why i do things!
having a fully federated blog and do not have to think about privacy concerns and local comments vs federated would be the way easier way from a technical perspective, not the way we tried to implement it!
I am thinking a lot about how to do that properly and to be honest, in the end it doesn't matter how I implement it, there is always someone complaining and that's ok, we can work on a solution.
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Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to jwz • • •@jwz and it is not bonkers! only because you have a different preference, the other opinion is not wrong!
if I comment on a federated network, I have to assume that this comment will be federated. If I visit a blog and write something into a comment field I can't!
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Ciourte Piaille
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to jwz • • •@jwz and as I said, you can simply disable the „local“ comments and have a fully federated only blogging experience!
Maybe it is also a good idea to let the WordPress admin know that it might be a good idea to disable comments and why so.
Luca Sironi (temporaneo x BS)
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •I do have an interest in both blogs and fediverse, and i view local comments as an obsolete inconsistent thing, like comments under articles on newspapers websites.
If a blog article interest me enough to take the time to write a public comment on it on the www, i'm already exposing an identity to the eyes of the entire world.
Optimistically i'm sharing considerations that could be useful to everyone, if not i would have just sent an email to author.
They could answer me under the comment, for bad or for good.
I could use a fediverse account created just for that, like that awful disqus thing.
I don't get why people would prefer local comments to having a fediverse account that could work as the glue to comment and interact with all kind of content, blog, videos, pictures, on the internet.
like this
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Matthias Pfefferle
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jwz
in reply to jwz • • •@pfefferle • I have been mirroring AP comments one-way into my blog for some time now, and have found it to be a positive. YMMV.
• This would all be less messy if Mastodon's threading model wasn't a complete clusterfuck that does not give the root post primacy, with control over and coherence of its replies: jwz.org/b/ykC_
3/3
jwz
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in reply to jwz • • •jwz
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Matthias Pfefferle
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Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •“It’s important that independent and self hostable platforms will join the fediverse!”
Sincerely, why is that important? Every mastodon install is already an “independent hostable platform,” right? So when you say that, you must mean Wordpress. So I’m sincerely asking, why is it important that Wordpress federate comments? What problem is that solving? And who has that problem?
Informa Pirata
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • •@Derek Powazek 🐐 @Matthias Pfefferle
Because it opens up anyone who has a blog to turn it into their own self-hosting instance
Think about the fact that you are potentially opening up your blog discussion to a community of millions of users, whose comments remain on your site
But I would like to ask you why you get so angry? If the activitypub plugin were mandatory, I would also express my doubts, but the adoption of the plugin is free and no one forces you to install it. Personally I find that Matthias' plugin is the perfect evolution of the Wordpress comment system, a system that barely survived the blog era and which now showed obvious interoperability limits.
Today, however, with this plugin, beautiful perspectives open up. Indeed, the integration between link aggregators like Lemmy and the most widespread open source software for blog creation is about to create the real evolutionary leap of the Fediverse: the #bloggingverse
If you want though, you can continue to use it as it was before, you are totally free to do so
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Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Informa Pirata • • •1. I wasn’t asking you.
2. Anyone can already have their own self-hosted instance outside of Wordpress. I’m asking why this is important in Wordpress.
3. My emotional state is none of your business.
4. I’m an expert in designing online community spaces (see my book, Design for Community, and was the designer of Blogger, so I’ve earned the right to speak with authority on this subject.
5. My question was what problem is this solving and who has that problem.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •it was not my intention to provoke an argument 😳
@informapirata already answered some of the questions, but I will also do:
> Sincerely, why is that important? Every mastodon install is already an “independent hostable platform,” right?
Yes, even mastodon is self-hostable, but it is not really build to do that (except if you know what you are doing). But I said that mainly because federated platforms might bring similar issues like closed ones when it comes to shut downs or bans.
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Kudra
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •*cautiously raises hand, clears throat, other hand rattles zimmerframe*
I desperately missed the rss feed capacity of LiveJournal to add any rss feed to my social feed. while many people simply make bot accounts for social feeds if the rss publisher isn't Federating (or on Twitter or elsewhere) seeing comments and being able to respond to comments in my Fedi feed, for me, is really appreciated. YMMV, but there are genuinely people like me who like this. If you don't like this, you don't have to follow WordPress publishers?
Informa Pirata
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • •@Derek Powazek 🐐 @Matthias Pfefferle
You are an online community expert: you should know that questions asked on social media are aimed at everyone who has an answer
This is a fallacious argument. Think about the fact that most mastodon instances rely on a provider like masto.host, because creating, updating and maintaining a social instance like Mastodon, Friendica, Misskey or Pleroma is enormously more difficult than self-hosting a blog.
I understand, but you seemed so angry that it made me suspect that the problem you were raising was much more serious than it seemed from your arguments.
You are an admirable personality in the field of community architecture, but having vertical expertise in the management of non-federated communities could constitute an obstacle to understanding the dynamics of an ecosystem made up of interoperable applications, but differentiated by functionality and features.
Specifically, the fact that Wordpress federates comments is important:
1. for fediverse users who can comment on the contents of the blogs they follow, without having to log in to the blog
2. for blogmasters who want to integrate the blog into the Fediverse because their community is already in the Fediverse
3. for blogmasters who want to integrate the blog into the Fediverse because they want to grow their community in the Fediverse
4. because the federation is not only social networks like Mastodon, Friendica or Misskey, but also link aggrgators like Lemmy or Kbin (which resemble forums and replace Reddit) and a blog that can natively expose a post published in a Lemmy subreddit, it allows to mix different communities with an intertextuality and intercontextuality never seen before.
PS: forgive me, but I don't have a good command of English; if you find some obscure, funny or offensive expressions, this may be due to the automatic translator
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Mikka, MD
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •@informapirata @pfefferle > 1. I wasn’t asking you.
It's refreshing to see that, with everything else in this world going to shit and breaking apart, wars, famine, climate, dozens of pathogens threatening life as we know it, the destruction of habitats worldwide, the rise of antisemitism, fascism, and more ... one thing never changes:
You're still the same insufferable asshole you were at Technorati.
Never change, Derek, never change. You are, in a trash heap world, He Who Remains.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Mikka, MD • • •Bob Jonkman
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •> [I] was the designer of Blogger...
Seems to me that it's a combination of #NotInventedHere and #SourGrapes that's resulting in some "charged language".
> I wasn't asking you
And before you block me, nobody asked you for your opinion either.
@fraying @informapirata @pfefferle
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •> So when you say that, you must mean Wordpress.
Not generally, but in my case yes, I mean WordPress.
> So I’m sincerely asking, why is it important that Wordpress federate comments?
Because WordPress is build for blogging and blogging lives from interactions and discussions and I do no longer have them without the the ideas from the IndieWeb and Fediverse Communities.
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Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •> And who has that problem?
First of all: me 😊
But I thought it might be nice to build it in the open, so maybe it also fixes the issues of others!
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •who ELSE has the problem? And what exactly is the problem?
If the problem is “when I comment on a blog that comment is not also published to the fediverse,” I would say that almost nobody has that problem. In fact, most regular people would be very disturbed to find out that a comment they posted to a blog was reposted into a network they had no knowledge of or control over.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •no, the problem is: comments are dead, there are no more comments there is no more interaction without ActivityPub, Webmentions or brid.gy.
> In fact, most regular people would be very disturbed to find out that a comment they posted to a blog was reposted into a network they had no knowledge of or control over.
The plugin does not post comments from your visitors to the fediverse because of that reason. It only posts your answers.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •but I do not „import“ them from anywhere. I simply use ActivityPub and that is how it works and if someone comments on my post on the fediverse he should be aware that it will be shared with that instance (in that case the blog).
And yes, there might be other ways and I also hope that others will step in to implement them.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •and how are you addressing their concerns?
Note: I am not talking about spam. I’m talking about abuse and harassment, which is very different. Askimet has nothing to do with that.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •but I do not want to convince you to use it.
it's fine that you disagree with me!
that's why everyone can choose to install it or not.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •mcg
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to mcg • • •mcg
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to mcg • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •@mcg but how is that different to Mastodon? What is the context there? What is the difference between subscribing to a Blogs Feed via RSS and to do it via Mastodon?
It's still kind of the same audience that reacts to my blog, but it's easier for them.
It's no longer: Reading it in the reader, go to the blog and fill in forms, subscribe to replies via eMail, come back to the blog after receiving a notification about a new comment and fill out forms again.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Oblomov reshared this.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
Unknown parent • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
Unknown parent • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •@bix as I said earlier, blog comments won’t be shared at all! Because of the reason you already mentioned. It’s simply: if someone on the fediverse comments on your blogpost your answer (as a blog owner or author or editor) to that comment will be federated back.
Comments that where initially made on the blog will be kept untouched and behave as they do since 20 years.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •@bix ok, now it becomes very theoretical!
There is a feature request to deactivate the comment feature completely and I am happy to implement that!
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •so someone could reply on the blog with abuse and harassment and the original commenter wouldn’t know.
This is why duplicating comments without context or consent can be harmful.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
Unknown parent • • •Daniel de Kay
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •@bix @pfefferle
But isn’t this #thefediverseisnotjustmastodon all over again? If someone writes a big fat blog post on Hubzilla, and someone from fediverse comments, what happens?
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Daniel de Kay
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
Unknown parent • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •@danieldekay @bix but I would call that a bug, that I have to fix asap!
Please do not use that as argument against the idea in general!
Derek Powazek 🐐
Unknown parent • • •Daniel de Kay
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •@bix @pfefferle
There is precedence of comments on blogs that don’t keep the comments only there. RSS feeds including comments, disqus and related comment replacements, … It wasn’t like there’s 20 years of comments and nothing else.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •@danieldekay @bix I am only talking about your community point! A lot of users that may not be aware of that feature and I call that a bug because I have not thought about that!
The general: blog owners want to comment back from the blog was a requested feature, not my personal idea. And that is not a „washing my hands“ thing, it’s just to let you know that I am talking with the plugin users a lot, to fix their issues.
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
Unknown parent • • •@danieldekay @bix @pfefferle My concerns run far deeper. The software in question (apparently) only federates comments from signed in members (if I understand what’s been said here correctly).
My concern is about context collapse and safety when copying content from one site to another when the user is neither notified nor in control of that copying.
Daniel de Kay
Unknown parent • • •@bix @pfefferle So essentially only the logged in commenter case is of your concern?
Maybe add a checkbox to the comment form to allow or disallow federation of the comment? This will create a ux nudge that something might happen that is unexpected
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •That’s great to hear.
Maybe the initial blog post, when it’s federated, should include a warning that says: “Note: public replies to this post will also appear on BLOGURL.” That way at least people will have a shot at knowing before they reply.
Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •👍
this is btw. already possible, because you can fully customize what will be sent to the fediverse and I have already seen folks adding such a disclaimer.
but maybe having it as default or at least providing a pre defined text snippet, that can be used by blog owners, is a good idea!
Derek Powazek 🐐
in reply to Matthias Pfefferle • • •Matthias Pfefferle
in reply to Derek Powazek 🐐 • • •Matthias Pfefferle
Unknown parent • • •