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And then we'll be left wondering why we're being kicked out of all our overseas bases. And then why the SEA countries are acquiescing to everything China wants and then why Taiwan gives up major concessions like allotting high quality computer parts to China.
It's all connected.
It's such an easy concept. I can't figure out if they actually don't get it because they are so narcissistic and why would anyone appreciate a few million in aid or if they are just playing stupid to posture to their base and be able to do even worse while everyone is distracted.
I think the later might be more accurate and I'm really curious what else I am missing.
Korea but Cambodia
completely agree about cambodia, nixon's hideous bullshit there is still killing kids through unexploded ord. Korea?
I mean maybe I don't get your gist but we fought a long war there then pretty much occupied the place for the remainder.
Funding all of these things cost every American a grand total of $2.14 each per year (assuming these costs are annual). (729M total cost, 340.1M US population as of July 2024.) He uses these big numbers to make the whole thing seem scary, but the cost is completely insignificant. The average person has no concept of just how much money the government brings in, and how completely meaningless dollar amounts of this magnitude are, and all of these sort of reports take advantage of that to make people angry.
Another way to look at it: The total cost of all of these initiatives is less than 0.1% of the US's annual military budget.
Ooh, ooh, look at the price of a single Tomahawk missile or anything else we regularly blow up, even in training exercises!
You can either aid democracy in South Africa, or have 1 Tomahawk. I wonder which does the most good...
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mechanized #warfare multiplied human death, but a silver lining is less #animalcruelty (they still suffer indirectly, less battlefield usage is the point)
a nice thing about #ukraine's messaging in this war is making a point of showing their kindness to animals
of course, cynically: "it's just #propaganda"
but the sincere choice to emphasize kindness to animals means something
and #russia?
now murdering donkeys for their #ethnofascist bullshit
united24media.com/latest-news/…
Russian Ministry of Defense Reportedly Deploys Donkeys for Frontline Logistics
Russian troops in Ukraine are now using donkeys for transport amid significant military losses, illustrating challenges in conventional logistics.Ivan Khomenko (UNITED24 Media)
Don't diss donkeys. Low carrying capacity and relatively slow, but they can still carry much more than a person can and they can move as fast as infantry can move. They are largely silent whether stopped or in motion. They cost FAR less than vehicles, and don't need heavy supplies or skilled maintenance. They can often forage for their own "fuel". You can eat them if you have to. They are instant cover, they are naturally camouflaged and they can move over all kinds of obstacles that would stop a wheeled or even tracked vehicle.
Not all low tech is bad tech.
"History records that humanity prevails.
Or there would be no human beings at all."
SearingTruth
God, those poor donkeys.
I don't care about the soldiers getting hurt because well, this is a human-made hell. But the donkeys, those poor things.
Okay, I am completely sick about all of this.
Nepal, officially the Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal, is a landlocked country in South Asia. It is known for its rich cultural heritage and the vast diversity in its geography, which includes the Himalayan mountain range. Here are some key points about Nepal:
Geography
- Location: Nepal is bordered by China (Tibet) to the north and India to the south, east, and west.
- Topography: The country is home to eight of the world's ten highest peaks, including Mount Everest, the highest peak in the world. The landscape varies from the fertile Terai plains in the south to the towering Himalayas in the north.
- Climate: Nepal experiences a wide range of climates, from the tropical heat of the Terai to the freezing temperatures of the Himalayas.
Culture
- Ethnic Diversity: Nepal is a multi-ethnic and multi-lingual country with over 125 ethnic groups and 123 languages spoken.
- Religion: The majority of Nepalis are Hindu, but there is also a significant Buddhist population. The country is known for its religious tolerance and harmony.
- Festivals: Nepal celebrates numerous festivals throughout the year, including Dashain, Tihar, Holi, and Buddha Jayanti.
History
- Ancient History: Nepal has a rich history dating back to the Neolithic period. The Kiratis are believed to be the first rulers of Nepal.
- Modern History: Nepal was ruled by the Shah dynasty from 1768 until 2008, when the monarchy was abolished, and the country became a federal democratic republic.
Economy
- Agriculture: Agriculture is the mainstay of Nepal's economy, employing about 65% of the population.
- Tourism: Tourism is a significant contributor to the economy, with trekking, mountaineering, and cultural tours being major attractions.
- Challenges: Nepal faces economic challenges due to its landlocked status, political instability, and underdeveloped infrastructure.
Tourism
- Trekking and Mountaineering: Nepal is a paradise for adventure seekers, offering numerous trekking routes and mountaineering expeditions.
- Cultural Sites: The country is home to several UNESCO World Heritage Sites, including the Kathmandu Valley, Lumbini (the birthplace of Buddha), and Chitwan National Park.
Politics
- Government: Nepal is a federal democratic republic with a multi-party system.
- Constitution: The current constitution was adopted in 2015, establishing Nepal as a secular and inclusive democratic republic.
Challenges
- Natural Disasters: Nepal is prone to natural disasters such as earthquakes, landslides, and floods.
- Development: The country faces development challenges, including poverty, lack of infrastructure, and limited access to education and healthcare.
Nepal is a country of immense beauty and cultural richness, offering a unique blend of ancient traditions and modern aspirations.
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Funding Challenges and the Future of Our Work
Over the past two years Independent Federated Trust and Safety (IFTAS) has provided crucial support to independent, decentralised social media moderators, administrators, and community managers. Our mission has been to equip these individuals with the knowledge, resources, and services needed to create and nurture safe, civil, and inclusive online spaces.
However, despite our best efforts to secure sustainable funding, IFTAS is now facing a critical financial shortfall. Without immediate support, we will be forced to severely curtail our activities in the next 60 days. With our current commitments we will be unable to pay our bills in April.
Therefore we are preparing to scale back our activities and reduce our ability to advocate for better trust and safety standards across decentralised platforms.
At this juncture we are committed to continue fundraising until February 28. If by then we have still failed to source funds, we will begin closing down some of our activities. Any formal announcement of our plans will happen on or after March 1, 2025.
The Funding Challenge
Our founding plan was to source three years of external support from corporate and institutional funders while we built toward self-sustainability. The list of companies we would accept money from is shrinking, and the charitable funding landscape in general has proven to be harder to access than we had hoped.
Like many non-profit organisations operating in the civil society landscape, IFTAS has relied on grants, donations, and partnerships to sustain its work. However, shifts in funding priorities, economic uncertainties, and increased competition for limited resources have made securing financial support increasingly difficult. While our work remains as vital as ever, we have struggled to find long-term funding commitments that would allow us to continue operating at our current capacity.
We are not a research group, we don’t focus on any particular demographic or harm, we are a general purpose charity with routine bills to pay, and this is not the kind of activity most institutional funders want to support.
We have met with dozens of foundations and civil society organisations. We have submitted grant applications and letters of enquiry. We have reached out to hundreds of companies and charities and others that operate in the Fediverse with accounts or their own servers.
For 2024 this outreach raised just short of $10,000, mostly from our community crowdfunding campaign, with about $400 a month in recurring donations.
While we have two grant applications pending, both of them will require us to have matching funds to properly put those grant funds to work. Despite our conversations with companies and nonprofits over the past nine months, we have zero committed funding that we can use to properly sustain our services.
Our 2025/2026 budget plan with Content Classification Service (CCS) included is $1.2M of which we have $300,000 in grants applied for. A large portion of this budget is for the extremely complex legal and content review work that needs to happen to assure this activity’s legality and compliance. If we close CCS we can survive with significantly less funding (but would forego the two grants as they are CSAM-specific), but will then be unable to respond to what our annual surveys consistently tell us is the highest need for Fediverse providers – detecting and reporting CSAM.
There is a possible outcome that includes a significantly reduced IFTAS providing core community services and little else, we will need to carefully examine our ongoing costs and determine what we may be able to support over a longer term.
What This Means for IFTAS and the Communities We Support
If we cannot secure immediate funding, IFTAS will need to:
- Halt new activities and policy guidance: Our ability to analyse emerging threats, develop best practices, and publish guidance for community moderators will be significantly reduced. This includes our work to help manage compliance with the UK’s Online Safety Act.
- Suspend CCS: CCS and its CSAM detection and reporting service online is the most expensive project we operate, and will likely close between March 15 and March 30. The core technology requirements to simply operate the service exceed $60,000 per year, and that doesn’t include the legal advisory and content review support we need to bring this service to the Fediverse in a broader fashion.
- Reduce advocacy efforts: IFTAS has been a voice for decentralised communities in broader trust and safety discussions. Without funding, our participation in these critical conversations will diminish.
- Rethink our scope: Significantly reduce our fundraising goals to support and sustain a much smaller portfolio of activities.
These cuts will leave many independent communities without the resources they need to handle complex trust and safety challenges. It will also reduce the visibility of decentralised networks in discussions about the future of online safety, making it harder to ensure that their needs are considered in policy decisions.
For the time being we anticipate FediCheck and IFTAS Connect staying online for at least the next several months. Our hope is to prepare FediCheck to be open-sourced so the tool can be used independently, and to find a way to sustain the Connect community for as long as possible.
We will never share or in any way disclose the personal data and conversations that we host, so either we keep it online or it will be gracefully shut down with plenty of time to help find a new home for the community.
How You Can Help
Spread the word: Raising awareness about our funding challenges can help us connect with potential funders, partners, and supporters. Share our fundraising overview. We know most funders cannot move quickly, so for now, we are accepting pledges.
Pledge a donation: If you or your organisation can contribute financially, let us know. We are not accepting donations at this time, but we will take your pledges to see if we can reach our funding goals. We need pledges by February 28 so we can make an informed decision about our next steps. Contact us.
Connect us with potential funders: If you know of philanthropic organisations or individuals interested in trust and safety for decentralised communities, we would love to connect. If you know anyone going to RightsCon who might be a good connection, tell us.
Advocate for trust and safety funding: The broader trust and safety field needs more sustainable funding mechanisms. By advocating for increased support for this work, we can help ensure that independent communities are not left behind.
Vote with your feet: Use social networks that are well-moderated and bring you the safety you need online. Support that service financially if you can. Say “thank you” to your moderators.
The Road Ahead
(a note from IFTAS Director Jaz King)
I believe there is no social network that has any sustaining, meaningful value outside of the trust and safety it brings to the table.
There are hundreds of apps and platforms, multiple protocols. Our society is extremely willing to fund the creation of yet more apps and platforms, repeating the cycle of build something new, attract people, wait until they find out it’s an unmanaged mess, watch them leave, build something new – but funding the trust and safety that provides much, if not most of the value is a tough nut to crack.
I started IFTAS with the idea that we can break this cycle and help identify and share the collective wisdom of what works and what doesn’t work so that apps and platforms can benefit from best practice, build a healthy and safe network, and then have IFTAS pay for the bits independent operators can’t afford themselves.
Over the past 18 months IFTAS has raised over $400,000 which has supported Fediverse moderators and administrators with our projects, our advocacy, our services, direct support to Fediverse moderators and developers, and more. In case it needs to be said, I’ve never been paid by IFTAS (or anyone or anything else since 2022), my wife works and it’s her support that has allowed me to take on this work full-time.
Trust and safety sounds boring, often is boring – except for when it’s traumatic – and is not something that I’ve been able to convince anyone to pay for in any meaningful way. Everyone I speak to thinks the work is vital, that our achievements to date are meaningful, but is “not aligned with our current funding goals”.
We’re down, but not out. The above is my signal to all who use our services that we are reaching the end of the road, but we’re not quite there yet. Stay tuned for March 1 or so to hear what I think we can continue to do to support our community. I have to put this notice out now so that people who rely on our services can begin to plan for alternative support.
Given the tilt we are seeing in the large corporations that operate the biggest networks, I believe it has never been more important to sustain the open social web. I commit to working with any and all other groups in the space who are able to continue building safety into our shared spaces.
I will do everything I can to sustain the community we’ve built for as long as I can. I am working non-stop through end of February to see what can be done, and come March I’ll announce where we are at and what we think we can do going forward. It’s been a privilege to work with so many dedicated teams and individuals in this space, and I hope to continue contributing in any way I can regardless of the outcome for IFTAS.
Content Classification Service
Decentralised service providers operating Mastodon or similar platforms face significant challenges in detecting and mitigating child sexual abuse material (CSAM). The lack of standardised processe…IFTAS
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The next Pixelfed app build has been submitted and is pending review, here is the changelog:
- Added in-app registration
- Added double tap to like
- Added oAuth scope options
- Added share intents
- Improved error handling
- Fixed pinch to zoom on carousels
- Improved like state across screens
- Several bug fixes and performance improvements
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American Airlines jet collides with army helicopter while landing in Washington
https://flipboard.com/video/euronews/5db694acf2?utm_source=flipboard&utm_medium=activitypub
Posted into News Videos @news-videos-euronews
American Airlines jet collides with army helicopter while landing in Washington | Flipboard
A plane and an army helicopter collided near Ronald Reagan National Airport in the US capital, halting all flights and launching a major rescue operation in the Potomac River.Flipboard
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Decentralized Social Media Is the Only Alternative to the Tech Oligarchy
Decentralized Social Media Is the Only Alternative to the Tech Oligarchy
The TikTok ban and Donald Trump's rise to power show how fragile our social media accounts are. We must normalize and invest in decentralized social media.Jason Koebler (404 Media)
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Isn't that basically the same result though...
Problem with tech oligarchy is it just takes one person to get corrupted and then he blocks out all opinion that attacks his goals.
So the solution is federation, free speech instances that everyone can say whatever they want no matter how unpopular.
How do we counteract the bots...
Well we need the instances to verify who gets in, and make sure the members aren't bots or saying unpopular things. These instances will need to be big, and well funded.
How do we counter these instance owners getting bought out, corrupted (repeat loop).
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No? The problem of tech oligarchy is that they control the systems. Here anyone can start up a new instance at the press of a button. That is the solution, not allowing unfiltered freeze peach garbage.
Small “local” human sized groups are the only way we ensure the humanity of a group. These groups can vouch for each-other just as we do with Fediseer.
One big gatekeeper is not the answer and is exactly the problem we want to get away from.
You counter them by moving to a different instance.
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The bar is not particularly high with lemmy and that is a focused community.
People aren't (generally) being made aware of the injustice on the other side of the planet while they are asking a question about C#.
If software can be made easier for non-techy people and there's no downsides then of course that aught to be done.
It's not always obvious or easy to make what non-techies will find easy. Changes could unintentionally make the experience worse for long-time users.
I know people don't want to hear it but can we expect non-techies to meet techies half way by leveling their tech skill tree a bit?
I know people don’t want to hear it but can we expect non-techies to meet techies half way by leveling their tech skill tree?
In order to charge her iphone, my mom first turns on airplane mode, and THEN she powers it down. Turns it off completely. I asked why she does any of that. She says "Because they won't flip the charge switch for me until they do! I wish I could take the battery out first, and THEN turn off the phone. But I suppose if they can't see my battery with airplane mode on first, this is just as good."
And you want this woman to learn terminal?
Why would she ever need to use a terminal?
I imagine she'd be doing normal computer stuff, not writing bash scripts.
I swear half the criticism of Linux I see online is based on people thinking Linux has remained unchanged for the past 16 years.
I don't even have a terminal app installed. It's not required for anything I do on my PC.
She thinks that if she just plugs in the plug to charge it, that the people at appleHQ won't let her phone charge because they don't like her. So she first turns on airplane mode, so that they have no communication with her phone, and can't see what she's doing. THEN she turns OFF the phone, so that her phone won't know it's her charging it.
Yes, I realize NONE of that makes sense. At all. That's kind of my point that she's not going to be learning anything new about technology. I just nod my head, yes mom, the people at appleHQ can't see you now.....go ahead and charge your phone.....
While rolling my eyes internally.
I wonder if this is a weird abstraction of the news a few years ago about Apple throttling phones as the battery capacity degrades, or possibly because of the new smart charging that iOS does when it recognizes a pattern and particular charger and limits charge current for overnight charging, which helps maintain capacity.
Or are there just insane Facebook people making this shit up.
They also want to doomscroll slop; it’s mindless and mildly entertaining. The same way tabloid newspapers were massively popular before the internet and gossip mags exist despite being utter horseshite. It’s what people want.
The same analogy is applicable to food.
People want to eat fastfood because it's tasty, easily available and cheap. Healthy food is hard to come by, needs time to prepare and might not always be tasty. We have the concepts of nutrition taught at school and people still want to eat fast-food.
We have to do the same thing about social/internet literacy at school and I'm not sure whether that will be enough.
We're talking about the need for a system to deal with major access of a main facebook/insta/twitter etc... to a majority of people.
IE of the scale that someone can go "Hey I bet my aunt that I haven't talked to in 15 years might be on here, let me check". Not a common occourance in a closed off discord community.
Also, noting that doesn't fully solve the primary problem.. of still being at the whims and controls of a single point of failure. of which if Discord Inc could at any point in time decide to spy on closed rooms, censor any content they dislike etc...
I question if we really need spaces like that anymore. But I see where you are coming from.
I was definitely only thinking about social places like Lemmy and Discord. Not networking places like Facebook and LinkedIn.
It really feels like there are zero solutions available. I’m at a point where I realize that all social networks have major negative impacts on society. And I can’t imagine anything fixing it that isn’t going back to smaller, local, and private. Maybe we don’t need places where you can expect everyone to be there.
Well, what doesn't work, it seems, is giving (your) access to "anyone".
Maybe a system where people, I know this will be hard, has to look up outlets themselves, instead of being fed a "stream" dictated by commercial incentives (directly or indirectly).
I'm working on a secure decentralised FOSS network where you can share whatever you want, like websites. Maybe that could be a start.
Well no?
What did I miss?
I'm speaking broadly in general terms in the post, about sharing online.
If you have some algorithm or few central points distributing information, any information, you'll get bot problems. If you instead yourself hook up with specific outlets, you won't have that problem, or if one is bot infested you can switch away from it. That's hard when everyone is in the same outlet or there are only few big outlets.
Sorry if it's not clear.
Most instances are open wide to the public.
A few have registration requirements, but it’s usually something banal like “say I agree in Spanish to prove your Spanish enough for this instance” etc.
This is a choice any instance can make if they want, none are but that doesn’t mean they can’t or it doesn’t work.
Right, but they’re shit and don’t good things out of principle.
We, the Fediverse, are the alternative to them.
Because they want user data over anything.
We want quality communities over anything.
We can be selective, they go bankrupt without consistent growth.
... Yes? What does that have to do with anything?
Those companies want an easy quick way for people to join because they want constant growth. That means not doing any sort of real checking or verification, it's not because these billion dollar company cannot afford to, it's because they don't want to.
Their problems are not our problems.
it's not because these billion dollar company cannot afford to, it's because they don't want to.
Have you tried to sign up for one of these services recently? It's a fucking nightmare. They can't stop them. Money is no object and they can't do it.
It could be cool to get a blue check mark for hosting your own domain (excluding the free domains)
It would be more expensive than bot armies are willing to deal with.
We also need a solution to fucking despot mods and admins deleting comments and posts left-and-right because it doesn't align with their personal views.
I've seen it happen to me personally across multiple Lemmy domains (I'm a moron and don't care much to have empathy in my writing, and it sets these limp-wrist morbidly obese mods/admins to delete my shit and ban me), and it happens to many people as well.
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- Dude says he is regarded BC reasons in civil manner
- Another dude proceeds to aggressively insult him... I would say not civil.
Who is the asshole here?
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lemm.ee and lemmy.dbzer0.com both seem like very level-headed instances. You can say stuff even if the admins disagree with it, and it's not a crisis.
Some of the big other ones seem some other way, yes.
Lemm.ee hasn't booted me yet? Much like OP, I'm not the most empathetic person, and if I'm annoyed then what little filter that I have disappears.
Shockingly, I might offend folks sometimes!
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There are simple tests to out LLMs, mostly things that will trip up the tokenizers or sampling algorithms (with character counting being the most famous example). I know people hate captchas, but it’s a small price to pay.
Also, while no one really wants to hear this, locally hosted "automod" LLMs could help seek out spam too. Or maybe even a Kobold Hoard type "swarm."
Captchas don't do shit and have actually been training for computer vision for probably over a decade at this point.
Also: Any "simple test" is fixed in the next version. It is similar to how people still insist "AI can't do feet" (much like rob liefeld). That was fixed pretty quick it is just that much of the freeware out there is using very outdated models.
Well, that's kind of intuitively true in perpetuity
An effective gate for AI becomes a focus of optimisation
Any effective gate with a motivation to pass will become ineffective after a time, on some level it's ultimately the classic "gotta be right every time Vs gotta be right once" dichotomy—certainty doesn't exist.
Somehow I didn’t get pinged for this?
Anyway proof of work scales horrendously, and spammers will always beat out legitimate users of that even holds. I think Tor is a different situation, where the financial incentives are aligned differently.
But this is not my area of expertise.
I'm talking text only, and there are some fundamental limitations in the way current and near future LLMs handle certain questions. They don't "see" characters in inputs, they see words which get tokenized to their own internal vocabulary, hence any questions along the lines of "How many Ms are in Lemmy" is challenging even for advanced, fine tuned models. It’s honestly way better than image captchas.
They can also be tripped up if you simulate a repetition loop. They will either give a incorrect answer to try and continue the loop, or if their sampling is overturned, give incorrect answers avoiding instances where the loop is the correct answer.
They don’t “see” characters in inputs, they see words which get tokenized to their own internal vocabulary, hence any questions along the lines of “How many Ms are in Lemmy” is challenging even for advanced, fine tuned models.
And that is solved just by keeping a non-processed version of the query (or one passed through a different grammar to preserve character counts and typos). It is not a priority because there are no meaningful queries where that matters other than a "gotcha" but you can be sure that will be bolted on if it becomes a problem.
Again, anything this trivial is just a case of a poor training set or an easily bolted on "fix" for something that didn't have any commercial value outside of getting past simple filters.
Sort of like how we saw captchas go from "type the third letter in the word 'poop'" to nigh unreadable color blindness tests to just processing computer vision for "self driving" cars.
They can also be tripped up if you simulate a repetition loop.
If you make someone answer multiple questions just to shitpost they are going to go elsewhere. People are terrified of lemmy because there are different instances for crying out loud.
You are also giving people WAY more credit than they deserve.
I wish this was the case but the average user is uninformed and can’t be bothered leaving.
Otherwise the bigger service would be lemmy, not reddit.
the market of the fediverse will balance itself out to what the users want.
Just like classical macroeconomics, you make the deadly (false) assumption that users are rational and will make the choice that’s best for them.
It has adjustable block size and computational cost limits through miner voting, NiPoPoWs enable efficient light clients. Storage Rent cleans up old boxes every four years. Pruned (full) node using a UTXO Set Snapshot is already possible.
Plus you don't need to bloat the L1, can be done off-chain and authenticated on-chain using highly efficient authenticated data structures.
I mean, don't friend, or put high trust on people you don't know is pretty strong. Due to the "six degrees of separation" phenomenon, it scales pretty easily as well. If you have stupid friends that friend bots you can cut them off all, or just lower your trust in them.
"Post-turing" is pretty strong. People who've spent much time interacting with LLMs can easily spot them. For whatever reason, they all seem to have similar styles of writing.
I mean, don’t friend, or put high trust on people you don’t know is pretty strong. Due to the “six degrees of separation” phenomenon, it scales pretty easily as well. If you have stupid friends that friend bots you can cut them off all, or just lower your trust in them.
Know IRL? Seems it would inherently limit discoverability and openness. New users or those outside the immediate social graph would face significant barriers to entry and still vulnerable to manipulation, such as bots infiltrating through unsuspecting friends or malicious actors leveraging connections to gain credibility.
“Post-turing” is pretty strong. People who’ve spent much time interacting with LLMs can easily spot them. For whatever reason, they all seem to have similar styles of writing.
Not the good ones, many conversations online are fleeting. Those tell-tale signs can be removed with the right prompt and context. We're post turing in the sense that in most interactions online people wouldn't be able to tell they were speaking to a bot, especially if they weren't looking - which most aren't.
We could ask for anonymous digital certificates. It works this way.
Many countries already emit digital certificates for it's citizens. Only one certificate by id. Then anonymous certificates could be made. The anonymous certificate contains enough information to be verificable as valid but not enough to identify the user. Websites could ask for an anonymous certificate for register/login. With the certificate they would validate that it's an human being while keeping that human being anonymous. The only leaked data would probably be the country of origin as these certificates tend to be authentificated by a national AC.
The only problem I see in this is international adoption outside fully developed countries: many countries not being able to provide this for their citizens, having lower security standards so fraudulent certificates could be made, or a big enough poor population that would gladly sell their certificate for bot farms.
Your last sentence highlights the problem. I can have a bot that posts for me. Also, if an authority is in charge of issuing the certificates then they have an incentive to create some fake ones.
Bots are vastly more useful as the ratio of bots to humans drops.
What? I post a lot, but the majority?
...oh, you said LLM. I thought you said LMM.
I mentioned this in another comment, but we need to somehow move away from free form text. So here’s a super flawed makes-you-think idea to start the conversation:
Suppose you had an alternative kind of Lemmy instance where every post has to include both the post like normal and a “Simple English” summary of your own post. (Like, using only the “ten hundred most common words” Simple English) If your summary doesn’t match your text, that’s bannable. (It’s a hypothetical, just go with me on this.)
Now you have simple text you can search against, use automated moderation tools on, and run scripts against. If there’s a debate, code can follow the conversation and intervene if someone is being dishonest. If lots of users are saying the same thing, their statements can be merged to avoid duplicate effort. If someone is breaking the rules, rule enforcement can be automated.
Ok so obviously this idea as written can never work. (Though I love the idea of brand new users only being allowed to post in Simple English until they are allow-listed, to avoid spam, but that’s a different thing.) But the essence and meaning of a post can be represented in some way. Analyze things automatically with an LLM, make people diagram their sentences like English class, I don’t know.
A bot can do that and do it at scale.
I think we are going to need to reconceptualize the Internet and why we are on here at all.
It already is practically impossible to stop bots and I'm a very short time it'll be completely impossible.
It sounds like you're describing doublespeak from 1984.
Simplifying language removes nuance. If you make moderation decisions based on the simple English vs. what the person is actually saying, then you're policing the simple English more than the nuanced take.
I've got a knee-jerk reaction against simplifying language past the point of clarity, and especially automated tools trying to understand it.
I feel like it's only a matter of time before most people just have AI's write their posts.
The rest of us with brains, that don't post our status as if the entire world cares, will likely be here, or some place similar... Screaming into the wind.
I feel like it’s only a matter of time before most people just have AI’s write their posts.
That's going right into /dev/null as soon as I detect it-- both user and content.
Decentralized authentication system that support pseudonymous handles. The authentication system would have optional verification levels.
So I wouldn't know who you are but I would know that you have verified against some form of id.
The next step would then by attributes one of which is your real name but also country of birth, race, gender, and other non-mutable attributes that can be used but not polled.
So I could post that I am Bob living in Arizona and I was born in Nepal and those would be tagged as verified, but someone couldn't reverse that and request if I want to post without revealing those bits of data.
Guns are the only alternative to the tech oligarchy.
You think they can't buy, manipulate, or just crush decentralized social media? If anything they can do it easily, divide and conquer. FOSS ain't gonna free you, esp. when the largest contributors to FOSS projects are big corps.
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We could make a wiki filled with all the options.
But let’s prioritize the non-violent ones first.
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Oh. Guns are even better for that.
On the right? They are a lightning rod for criticism and complaints. "All the jobs in our state were taken away and my daughter is dying of an easily curable disease. BUT THOSE FUCKING LIBERALS ARE TRYING TO TAKE AWAY MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!!!!"
On the left? they are a way to "meet in the middle" on a lot of legislature while also being a great way to villify and target groups. For example, anyone with even a passing understanding of history knows that the Civl Rights Movement was not MLK Jr giving one speech and fist bumping Rosa Parks on the bus. The threat of violence was definitely a factor (beyond that it gets murkier). And people LOVE to argue that Blacks picking up guns is how that was "won".
You know what else came of that? "That kid is a gangbanger and has a gun. SHOOT HIM. Oh shit, uhm. Fuck it, we'll just say the toy train looked like a gun".
And we'll see that continue. LGBTQ folk will decide they need a gun and you can bet the cops and the chuds will be glad to open fire at protestors because "THEY HAVE A GUN!!!"
And the absolute best part? "Both sides" are fucking delusional if they think their guns are going to accomplish anything against an oppressive government. Cops won't go near a pistol if a kid's life is on the line. But they'll open fire like mel gibson if they think a business is in trouble. Let alone the military with tanks and drones and there will be a lot more "combat footage" to watch online.
If there was ANY chance that The 2nd Amendment could pose ANY threat to a tyrannical government, it would have been destroyed decades ago.
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If there was ANY chance that The 2nd Amendment could pose ANY threat to a tyrannical government, it would have been destroyed decades ago.
Somebody almost killed Trump in July. A couple of inches was the difference between a Republican party in chaos just before the election and a party united behind their fascist hamberdler. The way this is going the 2A is going to be your only real defense against modern Nazism so you'd be better off hitting the range and getting proficient with a firearm than you are posting pics with #resist on Instagram.
In many ways, trump's campaign was bolstered by the image of him standing "defiant" with a fist raised in the air and someone else's blood all over him.
If trump HAD gotten got? Evil deep state assassination attempt by biden and here is your new candidate that the entire party would rally behind. And democrats would be even more reluctant to say or do anything out of "decorum".
Because here is the thing: trump isn't even the problem. He is an evil bastard but he is a symptom of the problem. Project 2025 is what those rapid fire EOs come from. And Project 2025 very much benefits from right wing fascists controlling basically all of social media.
And I will just, once again, ask: What do you think your guns are going to do against a military that is cracking down on you and your buddies as "terrorists"? Because if there was ANY chance of a civilian force posing ANY threat to a government, we would have banned guns back in the late 1700s.
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You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about what would have happened if Trump were assassinated. No one else has been able to harness MAGA energy the way he has. It's entirely possible the movement would splinter without its figurehead. We won't know that until he's gone. Although it seems less likely now that he presumably has 4 years to enact policy changes and put people in place to keep his agenda moving after his term is up.
There's plenty of debate to be had on the topic of the effectiveness of guns in civil resistance. All of which can be found in more detail elsewhere than we're going to be able to cover here. However, suffice it to say that your understanding of resistance in general and guerilla tactics specifically is severely lacking if you're assuming that this situation would play out as an open confrontation between the US military and some sort of militia. Despite the fact that such a conflict would provide more room for maneuvering than you are giving it credit, that would not be the preferred method of engagement. Generals and other senior officers have to buy groceries and go to the DMV just like everyone else. You pick your targets when and where you can get them. More than anything else, it's important to acknowledge that in the situation where it becomes necessary to think about these kinds of things in more detail, my guns afford me many more options than your knives (or whatever else you prefer to rely on) would. Unless, of course, you plan on giving up without a fight, in which case we clearly have such different outlooks that additional discussion will not help us find common ground.
Yeah...
Your mass assassinations plan doesn't work when there is a camera on every corner and traffic light. L Dog was always going to get caught if he hadn't fled the country within hours of blapping that exec. You are also apparently assuming everyone is Jason Bourne in your fantasy and are a highly trained guerilla fighting force that can blend in and out of everything.
You pick your targets when and where you can get them.
Yeah. The difference between being the chosen one in a young adult novel and actually accomplishing anything of value is what taking out your "target" accomplishes.
And... a great example of that is Palestine. For the sake of simplicity, let's call what Hamas did "attacking a target". What was the outcome of that? Israel had "justification" to engage in mass ethnic cleansing for over a year.
Unless, of course, you plan on giving up without a fight, in which case we clearly have such different outlooks that additional discussion will not help us find common ground.
I believe in fighting for change in ways that can actually protect others and accomplish things. Rather than fantasizing about living in a Call of Duty commercial and just painting an even bigger target on the backs of the groups I claim to be helping.
If you or the other "Buy a gun, it is the only thing you can do. I hear Fred's on 4th street have great deals on assault rifles!" folk had ACTUALLY engaged in any activism whether peaceful or otherwise you would have long since had it explained to you: YOU DO NOT BRING A FUCKING GUN TO A PROTEST. Because the moment the other side sees it? They open fire. Because cops will give a bottle of water to the white kid with an assault rifle looking for some n*****s to kill. They'll fucking murder anyone who looks even slightly brown if they have a bulge in their jacket pocket.
And… a great example of that is Palestine. For the sake of simplicity, let’s call what Hamas did “attacking a target”. What was the outcome of that? Israel had “justification” to engage in mass ethnic cleansing for over a year.
You put justification in quotes here, and I think you clearly understand why. Netenyanhu propped up hamas as the de facto government specifically in order to ensure a more militant party would give israel the necessary "justification" to attack the people there. So, even their governance, and that attack itself, is traceable to israel's state violence. A minor note, but an important one, I think. And I think one which requires more thought than just like, pointing to that and then saying "See, I told you, violence doesn't work, and is bad, and israel wants it!", because israel's obviously not an overly rational state which is actually functional, either for it's people or for it's goals.
More broadly though, it's not necessary at all for people to have guns, in order for cops to kill them. Cops can invent any number of reasons to kill someone in their day to day. The gun is something you just see in the news media a lot because it's incredibly common in america, and especially common in the hoods where cops go out and kill people in larger numbers. Again, we can see that as an extension of a context, created by the state, which has naturally created violence. Partially through the valuable, and illegal, property, mostly in the form of drugs, which must be protected through extralegal means, i.e. cartels and gangs, but also just naturally as a result of police violence in those places as an extension of that, which is an intentional decision to create by the ruling class. It's a way to create CIA black budgets, it's a way to incarcerate and vilify your political opponents at higher rates, etc. You can't be intolerant to the idea of guns as a blanket case, in that context, because it's a totally different kind of context, and is one which is created by the state.
I would maybe also make the point that a protest is incentive enough against killing people, because it would be widely known and televised as a massacre in the media. You know, just gunning people down in the street, en masse. That line is sort of, becoming less clear over time, as the government seems to be more and more willing to condone that, if not outright do that, but I don't really think that if, say, everyone in the BLM riots was armed, the cops would just start randomly firing into the crowd. They'd be hopelessly outnumbered, for one, so that's a pretty clear reason for the police not to just start sputtering off rounds like a bunch of idiots, but you'd also probably see a protracted national guard response over the course of the next several weeks, which nobody really wants to deal with, both in terms of the media response and just the basic type of shit that would happen.
You also have several extrapolations you can make from just that happening in the first place, even though it never would. Like, the kind of city which could get up to that, in america, would maybe reveal something incredibly uncomfortable to the ruling institutions about that particular city and its political disposition and potentially that could be extrapolated to the entire country. Most places don't get to that point because they reach civil war before that, which is kind of more along the lines of what the preceding commenter is talking about. More along the lines of, say, IRA tactics.
Which is all to say, that this is something which is shaped entirely by the government's intentional responses and the contexts that they create. When they decide to escalate, that should be seen, naturally, as being on them, and not on your average person. I think what the previous commenter is trying to say, with a good faith reading, is that we are probably due, in the next 4 years and perhaps beyond, for an escalation. I don't think that's really a morally great thing, or a good context, but I do think they're potentially right based on how things shake out, and I think that people should probably come to terms with that even as we try to avoid it.
Edit: Also I forgot to note this, but this isn't really a disagreement in core ideals, but just of tactics. Dual power isn't so much a deliberate choice of tactic so much as it should just be a certainty, being that both sides of this debate are mutually beneficial to one another. If you have, or can place, a more reasonable politician in office, either through violence (highly unusual, but does happen occasionally if the dice reroll lands well enough), or through the political system itself, then that reasonable politician is just that, more reasonable. i.e. more likely to accomplish goals which are desirable to any violent guerillas. Likewise, the pressure that violent guerillas exert can be seen as a kind of abstract economic cost constantly being leveraged against unreasonable political powers, in favor of reasonable elements of that political system.
The main point against this, is that the united states is currently so unreasonable, politically, that it's functionally impossible to bargain with in really any way. Any violence, under such a political system, one which refuses any attempt at change, is seen as kind of ultimately meaningless. But I think that's maybe also part of a broader point about how people just generally feel, understandably, incredibly pessimistic about the future, and are sort of retreating back into a kind of survival mode. Especially, I think, because they've been made to feel totally responsible for the weight of the world, when ultimately the decision of the political power to retaliate and do mass violence is, as previously stated, both inevitable, and entirely their own decision, that they must be held responsible for, rather than the people.
And we’ll see that continue. LGBTQ folk will decide they need a gun and you can bet the cops and the chuds will be glad to open fire at protestors because “THEY HAVE A GUN!!!”
Exactly, the presence of a weapon just gives them a reason to pull the "THEY'RE COMIN RIGHT FOR US" bullshit from South Park Season Fucking One.
As to an answers beyond simply getting-armed-and-fostering-healthy-gun-culture-and-education-among-us:
"Practicing mutual aid is the surest means for giving each other and
to all the greatest safety, the best guarantee of existence and progress,
bodily, intellectually and morally."
That's Kropotkin
And then Modern Libs even observe, more verbosely:
"The structures of our state economies are going to matter in terms of protecting democracies, and by that I mean if you look at economies that were based in the kind of small producer economies like New England was vs states like the South and the American West that were always built on the idea of very high capital using extractive methods to get resources out of the land either cotton or mining or oil or water or agri business, those economies always depend on a few people with a lot of money, and then a whole bunch of people who are poor and doing the work for those Rich guys -- and that I'm not sure is compatible in terms of governance without addressing the reality that you know if people have more of a foothold in their own communities, they are then more likely to support the kinds of legislation that Community [Education, Healthcare, ..] and that may be the future of democracy, if not a national democracy"
Heather Cox Richardson, professor of American history
On The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart on Trump’s Win and What’s Next
youtu.be/D7cKOaBdFWo?t=2139 (time-stamped)
If a Conservative wants me dead, they’re going to have to work and sweat for it.
I’m not doing the heavy lifting for them
(A I agree with)
Our resulting interactions may seem chaotic and illegible to authority,
but it is through that seeming chaos that vastly complex, horizontal,
and resilient practices of learning, cooperation, and reciprocity have
historically arisen.
By Andrewism
youtu.be/qkN_nQPpeSU
MASKING REALLY HELPS; Covid, RSV, Flu is a greater threat to marginalized communities. Can't do organizing without prioritizing precautions.
Show up for your neighbors. The rest will come.
No, we buy guns AND we organize our coalitions, just like the Black Panthers did.
We can't intellectualize our way out of Proud Boys lynchings anymore, guys.
(Also all the stuff VerticaGG said)
From the article:
literally
Look; if you're a journalist, pretend you know other words. I'm so fucking done.
Weird flex here...
404 at least does some investigative journalism beyond fake news headlines where person a "slams" person b
Elon Musk, who had already turned X into a cesspool of hate and an overt tool to get President Trump elected, is now formally part of the Trump administration, meaning the platform is literally owned by a member of the Trump White House.
The word is literally being used correctly.
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Isn't Mastodon a good alternative? It's a microblogging service like Twitter. You can post statuses, pictures, videos, etc.
You can also make it private and set it to approve your followers.
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Are you suggesting that we shouldn’t be worried about toxically insecure people in power when they are behaving awkwardly? Does an appearance of awkwardness grant automatic innocence?
I have been be intensely awkward with my insecurity in the past, and in my awkwardness i have definitely hurt people. If the victims of my insecurity brushed me off as awkward they would be enabling me to continue to harm others
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hosting, however, is a pain, lemmy is centralized as fuck.
My own “we need” list, from a dork who stood up a web server nearly 25 years ago to host weeb crap for friends on IRC:
We need a baseline security architecture recipe people can follow, to cover the huge gap in needs between “I’m running one thing for the general public and I hope it doesn’t get hacked” and “I’m running a hundred things in different VMs and containers and I don’t want to lose everything when just one of them gets hacked.”
(I’m slowly building something like this for mspencer.net but it’s difficult. I’ll happily share what I learn for others to copy, since I have no proprietary interest in it, but I kinda suck at this and someone else succeeding first is far more likely)
We need innovative ways to represent the various ideas, contributions, debates, informative replies, and everything else we share, beyond just free form text with an image. Private communities get drowned in spam and “brain resource exhaustion attacks” without it. Decompose the task of moderation into pieces that can be divided up and audited, where right now they’re all very top down.
Distributed identity management (original 90s PGP web of trust type stuff) can allow moderating users without mass-judging entire instances or network services. Users have keys and sign stuff, and those cryptographic signatures can be used to prove “you said you would honor rule X, but you broke that rule here, as attested to by these signing users.” So people or communities that care about rule X know to maybe not trust that user to follow that rule.
I think the key is building a social information system based on connections we have in real life. Key exchange parties, etc
It's the only way to introduce a prohibitively high cost to centralized broadcast and reduce the power of these mega-entities
Could you clarify? A sneaker net? Peer to peer?
I think the good news is, regardless of what gets done, people are hungry for real connections and the old internet.
Peer to peer.
I've spent a bit of time developing some related ideas, but haven't had time to start building it.
It's a bit rough still, but I'd love some feedback! freetheinter.net/
We need better tools than a polished BBS descendant.
Could you maybe edit your comment to something like
"Lemmy has 42k monthly active users
- discuss.online/ if you want a server located in the USA (content is still accessible from any server, the most difference latency)
- sopuli.xyz/ if you want a server located in the EU
- vger.app/ if you want an app
Feel free if you have any questions"
join-lemmy isn't the best for user onboarding: lemmy.world/post/24220536?scro…
Voyager for Lemmy
Voyager is a beautiful mobile web client for Lemmy. Enjoy a seamless experience browsing the fediverse.vger.app
Well it helps, but if you live under an oligarchy they will find ways to stop uncontrolled social media.
You have to address the root of the problem or you will ultimately fail as soon as you get big enough to be a problem.
That's the nature of the beast. You can't have human users on a network without at least some slop.
But the decentralized network ensures that a "techno-baron" has no more say than you or I, which is exactly what the internet is supposed to do.
That's decidedly better than a centralized system, especially now.
So long as it is humans posting this will be a problem. The benefit of a federated system is that you can't compromise the person at the top and then everything collapses.
I just jumped on here today (from seeing this article on Reddit) but my understanding is that the advantage is that the CEO can't decide he wants to suck authoritarian cock and destroy our ability to discuss and/or organize.
(Admittedly I joined the biggest server I could find so I kind of violated that idea as well).
Welcome! Some people have gripes with dot world for being the biggest, etc. but generally you'll be fine.
You can always search for communities here as well. .
There's many apps and frontends and too. Some are preincluded into lemmy.world. If you like old reddit try old lemmy for example.
You can certainly be censored on Lemmy, depending on your instance. But you can also easily go to another instance and still talk to everybody you used to talk to on the old instance.
Same thing with propaganda. Your instance can remove it from their hosted communities, or allow it. And you can go to an instance that feels good.
Does this lead to echo chambers? Probably.
You have almost 900 post, 9000 comments and you moderate 16 communities.
You are a member of the delegate class whose intrinsic power comes from trapping users into their instances and communities by holding their account, history and relationships hostage.
You can prove me wrong and prove there is no friction to escaping your control by leaving the server sh.itjust.works
Consider yourself called out.
You have almost 900 post, 9000 comments
If I could hide the count I would
and you moderate 16 communities.
Yeah, and like half of them are niche with little to no other posters. Not exactly a powerful position. There's a couple big ones that no one else was volunteering to help with. But I'm by no means I power mod. I want to help communities grow. Not police people. I wasn't a mod on reddit if that's what you're thinking.
You are a member of the delegate class whose intrinsic power comes from trapping users into their instances and communities by holding their account, history and relationships hostage.
I don't understand how you think I'm doing this? By being too active? If anything that should make people take me less seriously lol.
You can prove me wrong and prove there is no friction to escaping your control by leaving the server sh.itjust.works
For no reason other than what's essentially a dare? I like the admins. And as pointed out I am active, it's not like reddit where I could make a new acct and blend in as a new user. If I had a real reason to move I wouldn't mind.
Consider yourself called out.
Nah
You're onto something here.
I guess we could stack the rich on top of each other. That way we wouldn't even have to modify the guillotine. We'd just have to make sure the blade is extra sharp.
And for testing purposes, we could try them on the designers!
What a blast!
Yeah, which actually underlines my point even. We weren't "designed" for connecting with everyone around the world. Evolutionary there were smaller groups, sometimes having contact with other groups.
Today we can just connect with our bubbles (like here on lemmy) and get validated and reinforce our beliefs independently if they are right or wrong (mostly factually). As we see this doesn't seems to be healthy for most people. In smaller circles (like scientific community) this helps, but in general... Well I don't think I have to explain the situation on the world (and especially currently in the USA) currently...
You should have backups with a passphrase, in different locations. So if the underground stash is stolen/corroded, or if the bank opens up your safe deposit box, then your money is still safe.
Is this easier? No. Is this what we've come to? Yes. Now that we've got a choice, it's our own fault no matter which system fails us.
I want to believe, but decentralizing is what got us into this mess. The Fox people lived in their own world long enough that it created this whole alternate reality that spawned Trump.
If we keep our heads in the sand 2028 is going to end up exactly the same and we will all be scratching our heads when the Undertaker becomes president.
Even Karl Marx noted capitalism's dynamism and ability to cause change. In my own case, I went from poverty to modest wealth in a capitalist system, and I know many others who had similar experiences. I'm also aware that it empowers sociopaths, causes corruption, of its tendency to degenerate to oligopoly, and its failure to adequately address externalities.
And there are many, many variants of capitalism. The one now prevalent in the US is one of the more lethal strains. Improperly regulated capitalism such as that is a nightmare. Properly regulated, many of its negative features can be mitigated. I could stand living in a social democracy until a better alternative is piloted and proven.
Yeah I agree with this as well. It's not a binary view: either for or against capitalism. You can disapprove of everything happening in the US right now and still be for some form of capitalism.
Most people I know think that the US has gone way too far with their strand of capitalism, and yet they almost range from the complete left-to-right in terms of Dutch politics. Only the very right wing people here think that the US is doing something good right now. The rest, from center-right (or even proper neoliberal) all the way to the commies see a system that is failing in some way.
Yet on Lemmy this nuance seems completely lost sometimes. You're either a part of the capitalists/liberals and therefore approve of the oligarchy and dystopian capitalism in the US, or you join the radical "destroy capitalism" views. It's gotten better after the insane people from Hexbear left tho
Yeah, because I consider myself a pretty reasonable person. People have a big problem these days of never engaging with nuance, no matter how much you try to bring any conversation back to it. Things are definitely not as binary as people seem to only be able to conceive of them. The entire world and even the most seemingly clear cut issues have loads of grey area that people just can’t discuss because as soon as you say, “yes, I agree we need to ____! But we need to discuss the trickier parts” it turns into a witch hunt for anyone pointing out anything that might be considered a tricky part because it goes against the “I’m 100% on this side and it’s the only right opinion.”
It’s frustrating.
LOL. I'm not pro-capitalism, but thank you for proving my point.
I actually think, as one example, the US's healthcare system should 100% be socialized.
Public provision of services is not socialism, it's just common sense. The first mass state pension system was rolled out by that crusty reactionary Bismarck. Every rightwing country still has fire departments and (mostly) public road systems too. Not doing it that way is just stupidity, not ideology.
What is socialism is when people doing the work have control of the means of production. Control, not a token share. One example is cooperatives. By this definition (which goes back to Karl Marx), neither the USSR nor Communist China were socialist, they were totalitarian state capitalist entitites. China still is, though less incompetent than under Mao. And this isn't some revisionist point of view. Rosa Luxemburg and other contemporaries saw it happening at the onset.
The public healthcare and pension fund that Spain used today were created during the fascist dictatorship, as many other things that just made sense.
As I said in another post, the main issue is greed. Why does the US don't have a public healthcare system? Because of greed. It's so obvious humanity has classified greed was a problem for centuries.
I don't have much time and energy for long discussions, but I just wanna share my feelings.
I feel like people here see capitalism as a very black and white thing. Either it's there and corrupting everything or it's gone and everything is awesome. Personally I don't think that's the case. In my opinion there are some cases where the market can solve things more efficiently than a government institution, granted that this market is regulated and controlled by the government. I'm against unbounded capitalism like we see way too often nowadays.
But here in western Europe, while certainly not perfect, the situation is way better than in the US. The government controls companies, gives them a slap on the wrist if they get too greedy. And while it still poisons a lot that it touches, the competitive aspect of it also makes sure that many inefficiencies are cut. In my opinion even we are not regulating it enough, and I do consider myself left-wing. But completely abolishing capitalism doesn't make sense to me either.
I think some things are better left to the government, stuff like healthcare, public transport, utilities like water or maybe even energy. Other things are better left private (but regulated): restaurants, barbers, supermarkets, most product development like phones, cameras, cars, computers, etc. There's a huge grey area there that I don't really have an opinion on.
But I don't see how a society without capitalism can provide stuff like decent smartphones, game consoles, restaurants, festivals, etc. These more "luxury" goods rely on competition to innovate and provide decent experiences, and here capitalism works better in my view.
Human greed is not because of capitalism. Humans have been greedy from the very beginning.
The issue is greed, it's the core problem in all these human systems, even democracy main issue is how greedy the politicians get.
You don't solve greed by getting rid of capitalism, there seems not to be a solution for greed.
I mean, I mostly agree with this. You can boil any problem down to existence. And existence down to molecular processes.
But two things: discussing modern problems, it’s all built on systems. And the system we deal with is capitalism.
Human fallibility is the problem, ultimately. But there is no overcoming human fallibility. So building systems that place peoples well being above all else is an actionable solution. Whereas solving human fallibility isn’t.
And secondly, hierarchy in all its forms. Which I would argue is the problem boiled down past the system to look at its problematic parts. Does a system rely on or serve needs in a hierarchical manner? Then that’s the problem.
That’s as far as I think is logical to go. Digging down further to human nature is a problem for a utopian society to deal with, and that we are nowhere near to achieving. So, my point is we need to deal with the first layer of problems. And that would be capitalism. Abolishing hierarchy in all its forms comes second.
The first because the system rewards the worst parts of our nature. The second because it’s almost uniformly led to corruption. Those are the root problems, from my point of view. Human fallibility is, I’m afraid, baked into the cookie. But removing systems that reward those errors instead of eradicating them should be job one.
Then the problem lies with democracy not with capitalism.
Capitalism is an economic system, the "first layer of problems" as you call them would be the systems we use every day and those systems have been built by the government.
What is the difference between US and Germany? Both are capitalist nations, but one is socialdemocracy and the other isn't.
But I would argue a country with two parties isn't really a democracy.
Just picturing that, as you type this, you have a swastika tattoo on your forehead.
"Why is everyone so judgemental? I'm not one thing! A person contains multitudes!!!"
Uhh... What?
If you're a Trump supporter, I respect that you may be confused... But Elon Seig Heiled yesterday, so...
Yes, it is. But it's not the only problem... In fact, there are a thousand other problems I wish we could all discuss with at least half the fervor as this topic.
But no. This is the topic.
The message your trying to bring is good, don't get me wrong. You are trying to currently change human nature somewhat.
[Entire world on fire] "I just wish everyone wasn't so fixated on discussing the fire, how it started and who's responsible..."
You have to realize how mesmerizingly obtuse your comment is?
Human nature? Greed? Racism? Biggotry?
There's an upsetting number of topics... And now I'm depressed. Because life is depressing when you think about it too much, isn't it?
It sure is. It's important to touch grass on a daily basis to stay sane. I personally go outside take a stroll and caress some leaves.
Regarding your initial point : I see "capitalism" as the family of systems that enable that kind of IT monopoly. Sure, human traits such as greed and bigotry are probably the source of evil but it seems to me they have to be tapped, and enabled. The fact that the conversation often ultimately turns back to capitalism is legitimate imho.
Okay, buddy. It's all capitalism. Good luck with your pamphlets! I actually like the idea of making Western nations question capitalism... This said, no. It's not "nearly everything" wrong with the world.
Wake up, my friend. It's 2025. Just because people in power are getting worse, doesn't mean we can't strive to be better.
Wake up, my friend. It’s 2025. Just because people in power are getting worse, doesn’t mean we can’t strive to be better.
Except the entire capitalist system works against us striving to be better. It's not like the American health care system sucks because the people in power suck. It sucks because to fix it you'd have to take capitalism out of the health care system because capitalism drives the profit motive within the health care system which makes it suck.
Same with transitioning from oil to renewables. Fucking Exxon knew half a century ago that climate change is a thing and will lead to catastrophic results. They were in prime position to shift from oil to renewables and reinvent the global energy system, but it was more profitable to run disinformation campaigns and actively work against the transition so they did that instead. Even now some of the oil CEO-s are like "we're already so fucked there's no reason to go for renewables so let us keep making that money".
Same is now going on with electric vehicles. It's much more profitable to sell ICE cars and fight the change instead of actually changing. I don't remember if it was Mercedes or WV or some other manufacturer, anyway one of the big german car CEOs pretty much went "we can't change to electric vehicles in time for the regulations. But you shouldn't punish us with fines because we're too big to fail."
The list goes on. The reason people here are so anti-capitalist is because most of us see that even if we want to strive to be better we can't because capitalism keeps dragging us down. It's like that scene in "Don't look up" where the world comes together to save itself and just as the crisis is about to be averted the capitalist tech bro fucks it all up because who cares if we're risking our entire planet, there's money to be made. Capitalism will try its best to undermine any effort that prevents maximizing profits.
Do you really think we'll get to the 15 hour work week in 2030, like Keynes predicted? Definitely not under the capitalist system. We have empirical evidence that 32 hour work week improves productivity and we can't even get that because the capital owners refuse to accept it. Literally something that could easily improve all our lives and we can't get it done because of capitalism.
Nobody is against striving to be better but wanting to get rid of capitalism is striving to be better because capitalism is like a steel ball attached to your ankle. It's just weighing down all your efforts to be better.
Just because people in power are getting worse, doesn’t mean we can’t strive to be better.
Yep, let's rake our forests and rinse our recycling to handle climate change!
If your house burns to the ground, no worries, you can just collect floatsom from the beach and build a new one!
Dude, some things cannot be solved via positive vibes and being a good neighbor, and if you want my honest opinion on it, I think pushing everyday people to be accountable for everything while the broligarchs are accountable for nothing is a big part of the problem.
In other words, you should strive to be better than an apologist for the system.
For real. I once had the misfortune to admit to having some Centrist ideas, and the down votes were immediate and generous. No discussion, just personal attacks.
And we wonder how things got to where they are.
There are a few misconceptions in your comment:
While I do agree that there are other problems like racism and bigotry which existed before capitalism (based on an answer you gave in another comment) and while I do agree these also need to be addressed, I do disagree that capitalism isn't a major source of problems of modernity.
Why?
Because the cornerstone of capitalism is to use money to generate more money in a feedback loop towards (nonexistent) "infinite money" (which is different from feudalism, roman empire or ancient Egypt which all had some sort of market without being capitalist economies).
SInce it is impossible to make infinity money, an inherent part of capitalism are the crises cycles of boom and bust.
It also makes the creation of services as an afterthought (because making money is more important) and it is also tied to the enshitfication we're seeing today.
I think you're calling as "capitalism" a thing that is actually "technological innovation (under capitalism)"
We're all aware of free/open source softwares
We're all aware that it is possible to develop technological innovation outside of capitalist framework (and again: Capitalism = Using money to make more (infinite) money)
almost all of scientific researches advances are because of passion of the researches instead of the greed of capitalism.
Yes... Everyone "needs" money to survive. But I hope you do agree that nobody in the world needs billions of dollars to simply survive.
for God's sake, a lot of people living in "third world" dream of earning 300 dollars a month to survive and consider that making 1000 dollars a month is a small luxury (I'm from brasil and 1000 dollars is around R$ 4000 or R$ 5000 while most people lives with R$3000 or less)
What I'm saying is that, past the required money for surviving and for having a few "luxuries", there is no need for anyone having millions or billions of dollars every month and that it would be possible to keep scientific and technological grow under such conditions because curiosity and desire for changes are part of human nature.
if it was entirely impossible for humans to develop things without being paid before, then nothing around open/free software would exist.
Perhaps it is balanced you just want it to be more in line with your views?
I have never met anybody who said “yes, this community is perfectly balanced.” Everyone always thinks it needs to get more in line with their beliefs and values
Bluesky is inundated with them already.
Yes of course.
But by what method or algorithm does this DECENTRALIZED SOCIAL MEDIA system protect us from propagandists and censors?
What is a method in THAT?
Distributed tagging and voting? The grace of our benevolent moderators? Something else?
I mean, combatting propaganda and censorship is the #1 issue here.
This is not about protecting you, this is about you learning (or so i think) to differentiate truth from lie.
Thats what i think anyway 😀
I haven't read the full article due to sign up paywall, but...
First, millions of small business owners and influencers who make a living on TikTok were left to beg their followers in TikTok’s last moments to follow them elsewhere in hopes of being able to continue their businesses on other corporate social media platforms. This had the effect of fracturing and destroying people’s audiences overnight, with one act of government.
How is decentralised social media going to help with this if the entire point of decentralisation is the opposite?
Luckily, there's normally little cost to switching Lemmy instances anyway. You can even probably take the same username and register on another instance, quickly rebuild your feed and that's mostly it.
As everything is connected and there's not much reason accumulating account age/karma/you name it, the loss is pretty minor.
Honest question, what are the incentives for instance operators to play nice, so to speak? And not just recreate new oligarch safe havens?
It seems like each instance is a miniature zone of centralization and it's still incumbent on individuals to create their own circles of influence. For better or worse that's how we get hivemind echo chambers and I'm not sure it's even in human nature to seek anything else.
Alternatively we have to rescue our friends and families when they start to fall for BS and educate them aggressively on improving the sourcing of their information.
Although I realize something like this might not be possible, i'd love (in a theoretical perfect world) a delegative/liquid federation. where you can "delegate" your blocklist be an aggregate of other people's blocklist, which would allow a community of users independent of any admin to create a decentralized blocklist based upon mutual trust.
To word it with an example, if I trust user A, who in turn trusts user B and C's idea of who(/what communities) to block, i'll then be blocking the same people as user B and C.
It could work in reverse too, if I trust user A who allows anime communities and user B who allows game communities, then I can see anime and game communities. If people trust me, they can see the same thing i'm seeing. Imo that would spur user interaction and make a decentralized way to not put any one person in power. If user B suddenly decides to only trust fascists, I don't have to trust them anymore and those changes would be propagated.
I don't know if that made sense, so sorry if that explanation is wack! It is loosely based on this concept that I read from awhile ago, for which I haven't thought of the possible downsides.
That's a cool concept, but there are indeed some caveats to address, especially with the propagation part. For example, if you rely on user A to filter you gaming posts, and they suddenly decide they're not into gaming anymore, you and everyone who relies on you will not get gaming feeds anymore. Or if he is a sudden Nazi, not only you but people who trust you will get that content until you react (and until then, some others will unsubscribe you).
With a complicated enough network of trusted people, this will trigger a chaotic chain reaction that will make your feed less stable than a chair with one leg.
Also, conflicts should be resolved somehow. If a person A whitelists some content and person B blacklists it, and you follow both, what should be done?
One way to go about it is to create a limited list of authorities, but that obviously comes with the danger of someone having too much power. You can make groups of people vote for inclusion or exclusion of topics, but it's not feasible to vote for every single filter because there are simply too many. You can elect someone to do this, but we know what may happen to elected officials.
and they suddenly decide they’re not into gaming anymore, you and everyone who relies on you will not get gaming feeds anymore
I was thinking along the same lines for different reasons. For multi-hop trust delegations, I'd really want a way to see what I'm seeing through the composition of all those blocklists. And once I've seen that, a "flatten into my own blocklist" command might be interesting: I want a snapshot of how A through B through C would look, and I'd like to mash it down into my own list so I can manage it there.
If a person A whitelists some content and person B blacklists it, and you follow both, what should be done?
Merge conflict alerts, just like version-control systems use? Allowing an order of precedence would be another way, but I think it'd get messy fast.
I imagine merge conflict alerts would be very common as well as it all grows.
Ideally, no user configuration on an everyday basis should be required.
I don't believe the transitive principle of trust that you cite is all that workable, unless it can be done at a finer granularity.
In my own case, I (A) trust B and C. But B doesn't trust C, for reasons that have conditioned my relationships with both B and C so that I can still trust them. The reason for that is that trust is multifactorial: A can trust B for some things, not others. So what we're trying to model is an ontological relation, not just a directed acyclic graph.
Based on that, the best we can probably achieve is being able to set the degrees of separation of delegated trust (maybe 2 hops and that's all in my case), and add the ability to subclass or otherwise tweak someone else's blocklist (say, B's a fine person but habitually forwards Joe Rogan crap that I find to be nothing but vexatious noise), or C despises my favorite band but is otherwise quite sound, etc.
The first fundamental block to this, like on mastodon, is their power to silence and eliminate users from lemmy history without recourse and with transparency at their discretion.
For better or worse that’s how we get hivemind echo chambers and I’m not sure it’s even in human nature to seek anything else.
There it is, in every shoddy analysis someone has to mix up the thing we have with "the only thing possible".
Echo chambers aren't part of "human nature", they're designed into the algorithms by the broligarchs to rachet up engagement -- giving them $$$ -- while making it impossible to build consensus and community in a way that threatens them.
Up until a couple of decades ago, there weren't widespread echo chambers on the Internet. The first version of websites (even social ones) were simple chronological feeds. Nowadays, thanks to the assmasters in charge you don't even know what you aren't seeing online on most of these sites. Comments look completely different based upon even simple things like gender.
Not this article. It's free. Paid subscribers can read it without ads, is that what you meant?
Some of their posts they do reserve for paid subscribers, but those are usually behind-the-scenes type things, not the journalism.
I wish I could subscribe but I'm not $100+ dollars a year rich. Still impressive that they are doing DIY tech journalism.
Try again, I just read it for free. I'll post it here just in case:
404media.co/decentralized-soci…
Decentralized Social Media Is the Only Alternative to the Tech Oligarchy
Jason Koebler
Jan 21, 2025 at 12:33 PM
The TikTok ban and Donald Trump's rise to power show how fragile our social media accounts are. We must normalize and invest in decentralized social media.
If it wasn’t already obvious, the last 72 hours have made it crystal clear that it is urgent to build and mainstream alternative, decentralized social media platforms that are resistant to government censorship and control, are not owned by oligarchs and dominated by their algorithms, and in which users own their follower list and can port it elsewhere easily and without restriction.
Besides all of the “normal” problems with corporate social media—the surveillance capitalism, the AI spam, the opaque algorithms—let’s take stock of what has happened in the last few days.
First, millions of small business owners and influencers who make a living on TikTok were left to beg their followers in TikTok’s last moments to follow them elsewhere in hopes of being able to continue their businesses on other corporate social media platforms. This had the effect of fracturing and destroying people’s audiences overnight, with one act of government.
TikTok has since come back, but it is still unclear what the future of the platform is, and TikTok now exists at the whim of President Trump and is beholden to him to an unknown extent. TikTok’s status in the Untied States is still up in the air—it is still not available for download in the iOS App Store or the Google Play Store, and it could disappear at any moment if service providers like Oracle decide that Trump’s executive order and assurances that they will not be prosecuted or fined are not enough assurance to keep the app online.
Elon Musk, who had already turned X into a cesspool of hate and an overt tool to get President Trump elected, is now formally part of the Trump administration, meaning the platform is literally owned by a member of the Trump White House.
Meta has made an overt shift to the right, and Mark Zuckerberg has himself become a Trump booster. The platform is making its content moderation worse, has declared that immigrants and LGBTQ+ people are legitimate targets for hate speech, and has made many of these changes at the behest of the Trump White House and Stephen Miller, according to The New York Times.
Zuckerberg, Musk, TikTok CEO Shou Chew, Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, Apple CEO Tim Cook, Google CEO Sundar Pichai, and OpenAI CEO Sam Altman were all in attendance at Trump’s inauguration Monday. There is now no major corporate-owned social media platform that is not aligned with Trump or beholden to him in some way, and nearly every American is on at least one of these platforms.
The TikTok ban highlights, as we’ve seen before, that businesses and accounts built on these centralized, corporate social media platforms are incredibly fragile and can be taken away at any moment, whether by government action, algorithm tweaks that destroy reach, a platform deciding that a specific account does not comply with its ever-changing rules and political systems, etc. We have made clear at 404 Media that one of the reasons we ask our readers for their email addresses is because we have seen media outlets that rely disproportionately on social media distribution die over and over again. Individual influencers and account holders are now seeing how fragile what they have built really is.
The solution to this is decentralized, federated, portable social media in which users own their follower list and can port it elsewhere when the server they are posting on changes its rules, changes its politics, is threatened or attacked by the government, or otherwise becomes untenable. Mastodon’s ActivityPub and Bluesky’s AT.Protocol have provided the base technology layer to make this possible, and have laid important groundwork over the last few years to decorporatize and decentralize the social internet.
The problem with decentralized social media platforms thus far is that their user base is minuscule compared to platforms like TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram, meaning the cultural and political influence has lagged behind them. You also cannot directly monetize an audience on Bluesky or Mastodon—which, to be clear, is a feature, not a bug—but also means that the value proposition for an influencer who makes money through the TikTok creator program or a small business that makes money selling chewing gum on TikTok shop or a clothes brand that has figured out how to arbitrage Instagram ads to sell flannel shirts is not exactly clear. I am not advocating for decentralized social media to implement ads and creator payment programs. I’m just saying that many TikTok influencers were directing their collective hundreds of millions of fans to follow them to Instagram or YouTube, not a decentralized alternative.
This doesn’t mean that the fediverse or that a decentralized Instagram or TikTok competitor that runs on the AT.Protocol is doomed. But there is a lot of work to do. There is development work that needs to be done (and is being done) to make decentralized protocols easier to join and use and more interoperable with each other. And there is a massive education and recruitment challenge required to get the masses to not just try out decentralized platforms but to earnestly use them. Bluesky’s growing user base and rise as a legitimately impressive platform that one can post to without feeling like it’s going into the void is a massive step forward, and proof that it is possible to build thriving alternative platforms. The fact that Meta recently blocked links to a decentralized Instagram alternative shows that big tech sees these platforms, potentially, as a real threat.
And the far right has unfortunately shown that even small social media platforms can have an outsized impact on national politics and can be used to create political power. A legion of the worst people on Earth have spent years building admittedly resilient alternative social media sites after being deplatformed from or rage quitting sites like Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. Places like Rumble, Gab, Truth Social, Odysee, and Patriots.Win are full of the worst America has to offer, but people on these websites have been successful in seeding (often false, often hateful) narratives that filter up the power chain and often end up getting repeated by Donald Trump or on more widely viewed right wing media like Fox News.
I bring up these platforms not to champion them but to highlight that being pushed out of or voluntarily leaving more mainstream platforms did not kill the ideas that were being shared by these people; in fact, their ideas now make up a core part of the current administration’s policies.
This is all to say that it is possible to build alternatives to Elon Musk’s X, Mark Zuckerberg’s Instagram, and whatever TikTok will become. It is happening, and it is necessary. The richest, most powerful people in the world have all aligned themselves and their platforms with Donald Trump. But their platforms’ relevance and importance doesn’t necessarily have to last forever. A different way is possible, if we build it.
Decentralized Social Media Is the Only Alternative to the Tech Oligarchy
The TikTok ban and Donald Trump's rise to power show how fragile our social media accounts are. We must normalize and invest in decentralized social media.Jason Koebler (404 Media)
Thus said, you're right, Youtube is still okay, even thus there are some fake videos and scam, but they are easy to avoid.
It lacks some content
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, if this isn't the understatement of the century.
Peertube sucks ass, so much content simply not even there, most videos don't work or they're in either mostly french or russian, and this is on the biggest instances.
Now I might be stupid, but I really don't see how peertube is an alternative. Odysee or rumble are my personal best bets, but in case of youtube it's hard to find a real alternative in my opinion. Especially as a creator.
But technologically speaking, it's an open source alternative.
I hate to break it to you, but even as an open source advocate, open source alone, doesn't mean it's better automatically; Atleast not for the uses you (the consumer) need to fulfill. Though the argument about privacy holds very much up here, and it's simply better in all aspects in regards to that.
Also many open source programs and apps, and everything in between, that I've come across, lacks basic features, which, atleast for my sake, turns my off almost instantly.
Yeah that's a fair point. Thing is, I don't know what to do about this shit (Gestures to world). I used to get involved in a lot of direct action when I was younger but I'm a bit old for that now. And I can't really say that all the times I got battered by the police, arrested on airbases, shit like that - I'm not sure I made any difference at all. Some of those actions made headlines but those were mostly negative. And I know people say "Vote!" - but I do, and that doesn't seem to help either.
So yeah, sometimes I just don't use the stove for a while. I just feel a bit fuckin defeated.
if you got nothing left to lose, take some bad guys with you
if you're too old to fight, help organize a local leftist militia.
if you don't want to get involved directly, help amplify the message that we have to take the fight to them.
if you don't want to end up on a list, help develop and distribute forms of encrypted communication software.
if you can't do any of that, i don't know, go live in the woods or something.
just please, please stop participating in these online circle jerks where we pacify ourselves with meaningless platitudes. these are the antithesis of helpful to the cause.
I'm actually going to suggest; Yes, possibly. But for a very specific reason.
While much of social media isn't ultra necessary, federated social media could be quite essential to collectivising and resisting state and corporate manipulation and propaganda. All other forms of media and news are corporate or state controlled, and thus can construct and project false narritives that are beneficial to their aims, much to our collective detriment.
Social media has become the dominant way that many, possibly most people, see the news, discuss such news with eachother from people around the globe, and build a picture of what's going on outside of their isolated part of the world. I think Noam Chomsky in Manufacturing Consent gives a pretty fantastic argument on the importance of citizen controlled media, and federated social media is about as citizen controlled as it can possibly get. It's non-corporate self-hosted open source software as far as the eye can see! It's not perfect, but holy shit this is as powerful as a tool to diseminate ideas and information on a grassroots level that we've ever had, and we should not underestimate its usefulness in the coming decade.
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I'm currently reading The Expanse, and at one point a character mentions checking in on the family aggregator his cousin set up to help everyone keep track of who's living where.
Dude spun up a private Lemmy instance for his family. The future is now!
I've never seen them use the "paid subscribers only" verbiage except on that bonus content stuff -- maybe it is a bug that you saw that, or maybe the page accidentally loaded a different article somehow.
The "paid subscribers have ad free access" message looks like a paywall if you read it quickly, maybe something like that happened.
Either way most sites I don't like giving an email address, but they have a respectable reason. They didn't always require it, but scrapers kept reposting their work for ad profits, etc.. And for what it's worth I don't get any emails from them.
We Need Your Email Address
AI stealing our work. The collapse of social networks. The need to pay journalists to produce impactful journalism. Here is why we are asking for your email address to read 404 Media.Jason Koebler (404 Media)
check out “the gentleman’s guide to forum sliding”….
as long as teams of people sit in a row of computers using dozens of sock puppets, no place is safe once it gets kinda popular….
Rumble is youtube for people that got banned from youtube
I thought that was BitChute? Or is Rumble BitChute but not banned from all posts on Reddit (Reddit did a global block of all BitChute links as part of the attempt to black hole the video of the Christchurch shooting and the video the shooter's manifesto suggests was what pushed him over the edge into action).
Not saying you are wrong if anything though I think Reddit is probably the next obvious victim after TikTok they'll simply point to the Chinese Tencent who own shares and the next thing you know Musk will be part owner.
Fediverse I think will probably be the last hit simply because it's small and because of the design can't be hit easily, wouldn't surprise me if they just targeted the biggest servers though.
However, many also use Cloudflare (US based) as a proxy, which might make targeting the Fediverse easier.
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osaerisxero likes this.
I'm not sure if duplicate servers are supported with AP, I suspect it will cause the posts to be shared twice.
I have been thinking about whether instances also being available on TOR could help, mostly due to Saudi Arabia banning lemmy.blahaj.zone. Commercial VPN's are apparently something problematic governments detect, so I doubt that accessing the TOR network is safe.
Realistically if it is hit it'll be through some sweeping "social media safety" bill that makes the cost of administrating a social media site as a hobby prohibitively expensive and/or time consuming, maybe even as on the nose as requiring the software to receive a specific certification before it's allowed to open registration.
We've already seen the UK's online safety bill cause many admins of small forums and communities to shutter their communities as a result, and who knows how Australia's recent social media bill will affect Australian Fediverse servers & users
they can’t ban everything, the Internet is too big. people will find a way
they don't really have to ban everything. for example, the persistent chinese internet-goer has the ability to view things he's not supposed to see even though China bans large swathes of the internet.
but by making it as difficult as possible for most people and creating strict punishments for breaking the rules, you can effectively ban most things you want for majority of people
if posting on lemmy makes you an enemy of the state and the state is becoming increasingly harsh with its punishments... would you still be going on and posting regularly? i would certainly think twice.
if posting on lemmy makes you an enemy of the state and the state is becoming increasingly harsh with its punishments... would you still be going on and posting regularly? i would certainly think twice.
Where else would we go? Perhaps it's my non-American privilege but I think in a time like that I couldn't be silent.
that's kinda where i am. I'm in the mindset to be as gay as possible and as loud as possible about my dissent on what's happening here.
me and my partner are both also trans. our lives are probably worthless anyway, why would i cower now?? I've worked too hard to become my own person to let the fuckin GOVERNMENT take it away from me. they can strip my rights and even kill me, but they can't make me not be queer.
I think in a time like that I couldn’t be silent.
Honestly, nobody really knows until they are in such a position. I'd like to think I'd be noble and rebel but honestly I think I'd just try and stay quiet and under the radar. The older I've gotten, the more cynical I've become about positive change.
I'm more worried with making sure me and my family are in a good position. And if I start posting dissent online and end up in a gulag or just get dissapeared for it.. it's not quite conducive to that goal.
You're mixing multiple subjects here, one being the logistics of blocking a federated system like Lemmy, the other being whether the wrong person finds the content of such a system objectionable and labels it a "national security issue."
I'm being a tad pedantic here, but my reason for pointing this out is that I think #2 is not far fetched at all, but I'm unsure of how feasible #1 might be and would love if somebody who knows more than I do would chime in.
EDIT: Looks like some have already discussed #2 in the other comment thread started by Teknikal.
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They still exist. I’m active in one, love it.
I sometimes fantasise about a lemmy like decentralised protocol that works for old school forums.
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I just don't think we should flock over to these centralized options as the defacto alternative.
But, in a way we kind of have to. Barely anyone uses say, peertube, for example. And here I'm talking the mainstream consumers.
Now is peertube and all the other alternatives great for privacy? Yes! Absolutely. Censorship resistant? Yup that too (atleast peertube is) but barely any of the mainstream cares about about privacy, and they simply want something that's convenient.
I mean fuck, if you want a censorship resistent, open source, no javascript service that works on tor etc etc something something privacy, but only 5 videos to watch (massive hyperbole here) by all means use the alternatives. But most users either don't know about the sites/services, don't care or simply find it inconvenient to use and navigate.
I agree.
Of course, today Friendica is the most suitable software for managing local communities, thanks to the support of Activitypub groups and event calendars, in addition to the possibility of managing accounts shared between multiple users.
However, it must be recognized that it is a cumbersome and counterintuitive interface. If you want to create a project of this kind based on Friends, you must plan for continuous support from the administrators.
At the moment I would not exclude Friendica, but I would also evaluate other solutions:
Lemmy
It is not a social network and users cannot follow other users but can only follow communities. However, it is probably the easiest software in the Fediverse and is made specifically for creating communities.
Mbin
The interface is still dramatically confusing, but users can also follow other users. If it were possible to modify the interface and make it more pleasant, it could be a great option.
Distributed (and zero configuration needed), but with centralized development. Federated is not good enough - separate instances may lag behind in versions, or their admins do something wrong, and user identities and posts are tied to them.
Ideally when an instance goes down, all its posts and comments and users are replicated in the network and possible to get.
A distributed Usenet with rich text, hyperlinks, file attachments, cryptographic identities, pluggable naming\spam-checking\hatespeech-checking services (themselves part of that system).
It was a good system for its time, first large global thing for asynchronous electronic communication.
OK, if you are, you don't pretend, and if you pretend, you aren't. And if you talk about someone somewhere probably designing something, then you are not making that something closer. I'm tired of typing things in the interwebs people either already know and agree with, or won't take seriously.
Ideally when an instance goes down, all its posts and comments and users are replicated in the network and possible to get.
Federation allows this, no? Provided your instance is old enough to have federated with the content in the first place.
Instance A goes down, you can't post as your user registered on instance A.
With cryptographic identities it's possible that instance A should be up only when you are registering your user. It's even possible with some delegated rights to another A user that only that user should be up when you are registering your user, the instance itself - not required.
I'm against the whole idea of federation like in XMPP or like in ActivityPub. It's stone age. It requires people to set up servers. It ties users to those servers. And communities are unnecessarily ties to servers. And their moderators.
Ideologically Retroshare looks nicer, for example.
You need to have messages, containing all the data I've described (who messages whom or who messages which communities and time of a message should be used to reduce the amount of data, ahem, stored and transferred by nodes, and also messages should list their dependencies, like - if you are giving some user some mod rights and taking them away a few times in a row, you need to know what the previous message was and the one before it), and shared storage. Shared storage here kinda breaks the beauty, because storage is finite and in fact probably those machines contributing it would function a lot like instances, replicating only communities they want.
Above that messages layer there'd be the imagined social network itself. I suppose it comes down to CRUD signed by user, user signed by an instance root or better a user delegated that right by an instance root. So everyone can send CRUD messages on anything, but what of all this the client considers depends on what they trust and the logic of processing rights. DoS protection and space conservation here are a case of dependency management, kinda similar to garbage collection.
Then entity types - I guess it's instance (people like that crap), community (I think this can be many-to-many with instances, instances are used for moderating users, communities for moderating posts), user (probably a derived user, from what I've heard but not understood about blind keys), public post (rich text with hyperlinks to entities by hash, everything is addressable by hash), blob (obvious), personal message (like public post, but probably encrypted and all that).
OK, dreams again
loaExMachina
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •like this
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amotio
in reply to loaExMachina • • •like this
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macniel
in reply to amotio • • •like this
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in reply to amotio • • •like this
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in reply to amotio • • •like this
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flerp
in reply to Jrockwar • • •Wat.. that's not how that works. Quartz watches can be digital or analog but what matters is whether it has a digital display or analog hands.
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bstix
in reply to amotio • • •Knowing a clock is more than just telling time.
When you're walking with your homies you gotta be able to call out "gyat 3 o'clock" , so your fellow bros know where to look.
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in reply to bstix • • •like this
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Tomato666
in reply to amotio • • •With an analogue watch face I can work out the time, blurred lines can be seen.
Cant read blurred numbers.
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in reply to amotio • • •It's not better, it's just different, your comparison is flawed.
Personally, I prefer analog watches for most cases, because it's much easier for me to do calculations visually. To add 6 to 7/19 on a digital clock I need to turn on my math brain (19+6=25, 25>24 => 25-24=1), but on an analog watch I can just visually read the number opposite of 7.
And that's just one example, there are other cases, besides just being easier to read at a glance. I've used both digital and analog watches since birth, but analog watches are marginally better for daily use, where to the second precision isn't necessary.
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The Quuuuuill
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leisesprecher
in reply to loaExMachina • • •Honestly, how often do you read analog clocks?
I mean, I learned it as a child, but it's been probably months since I actually had the need to read an analog clock, and I'm just not used to it anymore. I have to think about it, 20 years ago it was just my spine doing the thinking and it felt effortless.
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loaExMachina
in reply to leisesprecher • • •A lot, since I have an analog wristwatch and a wall clock. There were also analog clocks in several of the exam rooms where I last had exams.
I guess many people don't use them regularly, but regardless, the simple fact that they still exist is enough to be worth learning about them. Not everything you learn at school is meant to be used every single day.
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ramble81
in reply to leisesprecher • • •like this
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leisesprecher
in reply to ramble81 • • •So what? I don't.
I don't have a smart watch and hardly anybody I know actually owns some analog clock?
Take a look around you. Where are any analog clocks? Church towers, train stations, old people. That's pretty much it. Your smartwatch is a choice. You could just as well use a digital watch face. There is literally no benefit in that case - except your personal preference.
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leisesprecher
in reply to ramble81 • • •It's called rhetorical question.
I'd argue that you are a very small minority. Most people under 50 probably barely have any analog clocks around.
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in reply to leisesprecher • • •like this
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newfie
in reply to leisesprecher • • •Every home/apt of every under 40 year old person I have ever been in has had at least one analog clock. And most have had several.
Also, grandfather clocks are a thing. And they're gorgeous.
Extremely anti-social to act like digital clocks are better - similar to acting like social media and Facetime calls are in any way superior to irl face-to-face interaction - as our current loneliness epidemic demonstrates
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in reply to leisesprecher • • •like this
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in reply to leisesprecher • • •like this
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in reply to Cheradenine • • •like this
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The Dark Lord ☑️
in reply to leisesprecher • • •like this
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in reply to The Dark Lord ☑️ • • •The Dark Lord ☑️ likes this.
WalnutLum
in reply to The Dark Lord ☑️ • • •The Dark Lord ☑️
in reply to WalnutLum • • •like this
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WalnutLum
in reply to The Dark Lord ☑️ • • •How so?
I genuinely don't understand the clock-face-reading-is-a-useless-skill opinion so both seem equally important to me.
The Dark Lord ☑️
in reply to WalnutLum • • •Fair enough. Most people don’t encounter analog clocks anymore. And many of us have smart watches or phones where we check the time. Since I have a non-analog watch, I don’t find I ever look at analog clocks anymore. If it’s in a room, I just don’t notice it. Growing up, it was important to know, but now I just never have a use for it. Learning is important, but there are so many more interesting and useful things to learn.
You could also make an argument about automatic or manual cars. Sure, we could teach our kids how to drive manual, but why? Most cars are automatic. If they want to have a manual car, they can learn. Otherwise it’s just a useless skill.
WalnutLum
in reply to The Dark Lord ☑️ • • •Yea that's kind of what I was thinking when I said eventually handwriting will go the same way.
If people never encounter it and do all their writing on keyboards, it'll eventually be a useless skill as well.
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The Dark Lord ☑️
in reply to WalnutLum • • •MutilationWave
in reply to The Dark Lord ☑️ • • •Someone else made a comment and I think it's great so imma plagiarize it-
If kids are taught to read an analog clock early, which isn't very hard to learn, they are getting a leg up on fractions, percentages, and geometry.
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to MutilationWave • • •I don't actually believe this is true.
It rather, I imagine that they could get an even greater leg up if that time was spent teaching something else
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to loaExMachina • • •Yes.
But they don't need to know it. So they stopped teaching it.
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Machefi
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Schools are removing analogue clocks from exam halls as teenagers 'cannot tell the time'
Camilla Turner (The Telegraph)like this
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in reply to Machefi • • •like this
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leisesprecher
in reply to FireRetardant • • •You on the other perform excellent in being abrasive, despite social pressure not to be an asshole.
10/10 no notes.
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in reply to leisesprecher • • •like this
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LesserAbe
in reply to FireRetardant • • •You're right it's good to prepare young people for challenges. Still, that should mean challenges that would come up anyways, not artificially making things more difficult.
It's good to know how to read an analog clock, just like it's good to be able to read cursive. But both of them are outdated and aren't inherently required in day to day life. Inserting them into a testing situation that's meant to test something else is creating an unnecessary challenge.
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in reply to LesserAbe • • •like this
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zourn
in reply to FireRetardant • • •Except, a pressure gage reads the number it's pointing at. Not 1 hand means the number it's pointing at and the other means 5 times the most recent digit passed plus 1 for each tick mark.
I'd wager that most people would never even see a pressure gage with two hands. Dual-indicating double-bourdon tube differential pressure gages are quite rare in the real world. Usually for that kind of application you'd go digital.
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in reply to LesserAbe • • •like this
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in reply to vrek • • •ddh
in reply to Scrath • • •FireRetardant likes this.
Scrath
in reply to ddh • • •Sometimes they have it written on the clockface. I don't think that's a general rule though.
In the same way there are digital clocks that can be wrong too though.
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FireRetardant
in reply to ddh • • •like this
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RandomVideos
in reply to Machefi • • •Kids cant ask the teacher for the time?
At my school, because the clock was always between 2 and 10 minutes wrong, the students(mostly me) would just raise their hands and ask how much time they have left
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ᗪᗩᗰᑎ
in reply to RandomVideos • • •like this
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RandomVideos
in reply to ᗪᗩᗰᑎ • • •I wrote the reply before reading the article so i didnt think of digital clocks being the alternative(i also never seen a digital clock in real life excluding smart devices)
Also, i was referencing the part of the comment that said that kids were misreading the time(do kids rely on analog clocks that may be wrong during tests?) , not saying that the problem shouldnt be fixed
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Zoboomafoo
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •like this
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unexposedhazard
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carl_dungeon
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TheSlad
Unknown parent • • •Wristwatches are just jewelry at this point tbh. They've been rendered completely redundant by cell phones. The only people under 60 who wear them are doing so as a fashion statement.
I'm sure a lot of wristwatch stans will downvote me but I don't care I'm still right
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The Quuuuuill
in reply to TheSlad • • •Ever since college I've always worn a cheap watch on my wrist least for the same reason my grandpa stopped keeping a pocket watch: its more convenient to check on your wrist for the time than your pocket.
Granted we're getting way off topic here since except for a few years its ways been a digital watch. Asserting analog watches are more numerous in models when digital watches are more numerous in sales, therefore reading an analog clock is a useful skill is odd to me. When I was wearing an analog watch for my allergies it was a flieger because the mental tax of making the hands turn into a singular time was a frustration.
I learned, though, from this that how you present time changes how you perceive time. Kids who grow up with digital representations of time consider "the current moment" in a much narrower and instantaneous scope than people who grew up thinking of time as being a spectrum on a dial
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Unforeseen
in reply to r00ty • • •like this
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loaExMachina
in reply to unexposedhazard • • •"Ususally more precise" > This depends on how precisely it is set, not on the display. Unless it's a connected watch, but then it's much more expensive and less energy efficient.
"1.1 translatable into written text" > Both are, you're reading the same number
"Uses the superior 24h system" > Adding 12 to a number isn't complicated. And with habit, most people who use analog watches and the 24h system know which position of the needle means what number in 24h format without doing the math. Some clocks don't even have digits. Unless you've been sedated and woke up in a room without windows, you'll know which side of 12 you're on. And otherwise, you've got more pressing issues.
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Rooskie91
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Sounds like divisive bullshit.
After all the millennial horseshit we had to hear in the 2010's and we're just gonna turn around and do the same shit, huh?
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RubberElectrons
in reply to Rooskie91 • • •I'm not gonna do that, fuck that. I do hope this much screen time is ok for kids, even as a young programmer I didn't have an iPad everywhere. Nobody seems concerned about their privacy, but guess what: neither did my millennial peers.
I think everything will be ok with alpha and Z. Let's not repeat our the mistakes of our parents.
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Carrot
in reply to RubberElectrons • • •I think it's important to not give certain things the benefit of the doubt. This clock stuff is just plain stupid to get bent out of shape about, but the other two are serious concerns.
This is just anecdotal, but I was a late 90's kid that had as much screen time as I wanted growing up. I played an absurd amount of videogames, and had to be dragged outside by my siblings or I could comfortably stay indoors in front of a game or the internet for hours on end. I spent most of my early years (age 3 to age 15) in front of a screen. Yet, I did just fine in school, got a degree, and now work as a software engineer. I fell in love with my highschool sweetheart, and after waiting until I had my degree, we got married at 23, almost 10 years after we started dating. It felt like my obsessive amounts of screen time as a kid didn't have any negative side effects to my life as a whole (outside of being a quiet and reserved person, and some could argue that that's not a negative) and led me down a successful career path.
However, I don't think kids these days have the luxury of doing that anymore. The content put in front of me as a kid was games made by teams that were passionate about the thing they were working on. Forums and early YouTube videos were created by some no name person with the hope of sharing something they openly cared about. Social Media didn't exist yet and once it did, I never really got into it.
The content put in front of children these days is one of three or so things:
1. Mindless dribble. (looking at you, Youtube Kids)
2. Rushed, broken games made barely finished enough to get people to buy them just to make a quick buck, and the ones that are finished are so heavily tied into marketing it's like the game is basically one big ad. (looking at you, Fortnite and Rocket League)
3. Content made with the express purpose to either gain influencer status, or to use that influencer status to market something, primarily to children who are especially vulnerable to the scummy marketing practices they are using.
Obviously there are exceptions to these everywhere, but I'm talking about the things that are actively being shoved down kids' throats. It's not that I think that the content I consumed was better than what I see kids consuming now, but I think that the motivations behind the content can just as easily influence children as much as the content itself. I think that in a lot of ways, this kind of content is actively degrading kids' brains, and from my experience, it's not the screen time, it's what's being shown on screen that's the issue.
Thankfully I'm tech savvy enough that I can make the internet for my children what it was for me as a kid, without all the marketing and money making schemes that pass as content these days, but a lot of people just toss a tablet in front of their kids and call it parenting.
I was going to rant about privacy as well, but this is getting way too long. Just know that I think digital privacy is really important, and think that we've paid the price for not considering it earlier, and there are ways we can save our kids from the same fate.
Sorry, I tend to write way too much on topics I care about, thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
tl;dr - The clock thing is stupid, but please approach the constant exposure to the modern day internet and the digital privacy topics with a bit more scrutiny.
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to Rooskie91 • • •like this
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r00ty
in reply to Unforeseen • • •Sync process? The other comment was talking about the old receivers for the atomic clocks on SW/MW frequencies. It was a one way thing.
Now in theory if a receiver also had GPS they could account for the distance. But, then they'd get far more accurate time from the GPS receiver so..
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variants
in reply to TheSlad • • •Watches are just more convenient. You don't need to carry a phone everywhere and with texts and calls showing on the watch you don't need to find your phone to check.
I use my watch with alarms/ timers to know when I need to clock out or in from lunch etc while I mostly leave my phone at my desk while at work so if I'm walking around the building I still get my alerts through my watch
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akilou
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •like this
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2ugly2live
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •like this
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Spacehooks
in reply to 2ugly2live • • •You could say it's Same with a digital clock but an analog clock is always the same with circle and 2 hands while I don't know what characters people are trying to do with cursive.
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2ugly2live
in reply to Spacehooks • • •lolcatnip
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2ugly2live
in reply to lolcatnip • • •LesserAbe
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in reply to LesserAbe • • •tigeruppercut likes this.
Catsrules
in reply to LesserAbe • • •Yeah I am way out of practice in my cursive. I can still read it but it wouldn't come naturally. Cursive was pounded into my head at a young age. Teachers saying we would used it every day in our lives. That was probably true for them but it was certainly not true for me.
The only time I ever use cursive is signing my name. The only time I read cursive is a letter from my grandparents once they pass that would basically be the end of my cursive reading.
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Zorsith
in reply to LesserAbe • • •LesserAbe likes this.
linkhidalgogato
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •1 if u dont kids how to do a thing they dont learn
2 and more importantly; finally, analog clocks have no place in our wold and every last one should be in trash they serve literally no purpose, i have always hated them and i will delight in their death.
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linkhidalgogato
in reply to Iampossiblyatwork • • •curbstickle
in reply to TheSlad • • •For office attire or going out, sure.
If you're doing repair work, running lines, etc, a watch is the choice. Your hands are busy, so a watch is what you need (Except for specific trades where you don't want to risk it getting caught in machinery).
I can say with 100% certainty that I know large swaths of folks in their 20's and 30's who regularly wear watches. Some smart, some digital, some analog.
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Daxtron2
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •like this
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AFaithfulNihilist
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •I've worked in 2 different schools in the IT department and 4 others as a volunteer lecturer (I got a name tag that said Technology Evangelist) I found that putting an analog clock on the screen saver of computers in the classroom was more likely to result in the clock actually being on time.
Too many clocks in classrooms are very old or even battery powered but neglected.
I don't think kids are dumb just they aren't getting a world that is properly maintained by competent people that care about their work and are adequately resourced to do the whole job.
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hector
in reply to AFaithfulNihilist • • •During my final exams that lasted from may to July they didn’t even bother to set the analog clock to the right hour…
Even for our baccalaureate
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ngwoo
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •like this
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in reply to ngwoo • • •like this
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in reply to AngryCommieKender • • •like this
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WarlordSdocy
in reply to AngryCommieKender • • •The problem is unless you really use the skill a lot you're not really gonna learn it from school. I had to teach myself how to read analog clocks in highschool cause even though I'm pretty sure I learned it in elementary school I grew up with computers and eventually smart phones so I never had to use it.
Edit: Also for context I was born in 2001
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in reply to ngwoo • • •like this
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in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •12510198 likes this.
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in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Actual_Idiot likes this.
TylerDurdenJunior
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •"Roman numerals to be phased out"
.. Damn gen WW1
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marcos
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Kids these days do absolutely still know how to read analog clocks.
Besides, they probably shouldn't put effort into that. Those things are close to useless nowadays. It's mostly a case of schools being conservative... but then, it's not that much of an effort, so there are more important things to care about.
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Monstrosity
in reply to marcos • • •Actually, a lot don't. I mean, like, at least fifty percent. You would be surprised. I don't think it's schools being conservative so much as it didn't occur to teachers and staff that analogue clocks are frankly obsolete (I still like them). I didn't read this article, but it sounds like that's being corrected.
Anyways, I really respect your attitude that it's not worth getting bent out of shape or spending a lot of time on, I think you're right. A lot of people get precious about it or, worse, make fun of kids like they're stupid because they haven't wasted their time learning to read, essentially, a sundial.
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in reply to marcos • • •like this
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in reply to marcos • • •Xavienth likes this.
Noobnarski
in reply to marcos • • •I do know how to read an analog clock, but I dont read it subconciously, because my brain works on digital time, so I will have to look at it and then figure out what that time is if it were on a digital clock.
So if I see an analog clock I would rather look at my phone because that is just quicker than doing the conversion.
If you want to know more, look at the video Technology Connections (2?) did about it.
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in reply to Noobnarski • • •TwistedTurtle
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marcos
in reply to TwistedTurtle • • •Well, I don't exactly disagree... but one of those things is completely different from the others.
I would agree more if we were talking literally about "how an analog clock works" instead of the convention to reading them. But it would still be a niche knowledge that you can take from Wikipedia if it ever becomes relevant to you.
Halosheep
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Real talk, is there some benefit to an analog clock that would prevent them from all being replaced by digital ones? Being able to know exactly the time in a moment's glance seems better to me.
They're certainly not better looking than a digital one, considering most of the ones used in schools are just the cheapest and most basic version they can get.
Power requirements maybe? Longevity?
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to AngryCommieKender • • •So what are the purposes? Nobody uses analog clocks anymore so afaict:
What am I missing? 😛
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Bytemeister
in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •Clockwise, counter clockwise. Classic time shorthand (IE, half past ten, quarter to eleven). Time estimations (easy to see a half minute on a analog clock, digital just goes from 2:00 to 2:01)
I think analog clock displays are more elegant, and are overall nicer than digital. Personal preference though.
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to Bytemeister • • •I'm not saying nobody should learn it, I'm saying it's not a great use of school resources. If you appreciate the aesthetic or functionality, then by all means go out and learn it. I personally like them, but I think that it should remain out of the curriculum for purely practical reasons.
I still don't really see any useful skills that learning an analog clock teaches you, besides how to read an analog clock, which isn't useful because analog clocks are so rare IRL.\
The handful of useful skills they assist teaching isn't worth it because there are better ways to teach those things. The clock isn't so good at teaching all those things that it's worth using the clock instead.
MrShankles
in reply to AngryCommieKender • • •I feel called out. I was in high-school Calculus (11th grade) before I "truly" understood fractions. Like, I honestly somehow managed to make it to Calculus without knowing how to add and subtract fractions without a calculator. Thought I was dumb in math until 9th grade algebra, and didn't start becoming a bit of a math nerd until Calculus
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Tudsamfa
in reply to Halosheep • • •Can't do that with a digital display, can you?
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in reply to JeyNessuno • • •MonkderVierte
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Faresh
in reply to Halosheep • • •That seems more like a pro for analogue to me. It's much easier with an analogue clock since you get a visual presentation of time. Whenever someone tells me a time, I have to first imagine an analogue clock to understand what that time means.
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in reply to Faresh • • •stevenm2406 likes this.
windpunch
in reply to Halosheep • • •Genuine question, how precise do you need the time to be? Maybe you actually need precise readings for something. I figured that "on the 5 min marker", "slightly before/behind the 5 min marker" and "in the middle of two 5 min markers" is precise enough for me. And I see a hand at these positions faster than reading numbers.
I think for precise readings (eg. entering the time I start working), the speed is the same for me, but obviously I didn't test this.
I also think looking at the time but still not knowing what time it is a few seconds later happens less on an analog clock.
I don't know how much personal preference influences this though.
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in reply to windpunch • • •kshade
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pixelscript
in reply to Halosheep • • •An analog clock is just three sets of loading bars with their ends glued together. You can tell geometrically what proportion of each division of time (day, hour, and minute) are spent and what proportion remains. You don't even need the numbers.
If you need stopwatch-level precision, sure, a digital display is superior. But how often do you need that? Most of what I need clocks for is, "Oh, it's about a quarter to noon, I have a lunch appointment to get to".
It is my personal preference to visually intuit that the clock hands are roughly separating the hour into 3/4 spent and 1/4 remaining and use that to know how much time I have left to the hour, rather than read the symbols "42" on the display and manually do the mental gymnastics of "well that's basically 45, which is three quarters of the way to 60 minutes".
I'll admit this benefit is marginal.
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in reply to Halosheep • • •MuffinHeeler likes this.
WalnutLum
in reply to Halosheep • • •From a practicality standpoint, a round clockface is easier to create a mechanical drive system for.
You can create a digital mechanical face (see: Flipboard style numerical displays) but they usually require more gears and are more susceptible to wear and tear than the gears of a round clock face.
The simplest designs for mechanical digital displays actually just take 24 hour and 60 minute/second circular displays and hide the other numerals as the clock face spins around. Technically this I suppose counts as both analog and digital?
Example:
As for electronic displays? Nah not much of a reason to use a round display unless again, you have an electric-mechanical drive and want to save on gears and parts.
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in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •Nice
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vga
in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •I feel like there's a bit of a difficulty difference. One requires basic spacial understanding. The other requires hundreds of hours of practice to become good. Nevertheless, learning both is a good idea for different reasons. Activating your brains via fine hand coordination is a great activity for children.
As a comparison, think about how much writing chinese children have to learn in school. They don't come out as exactly poorly educated, rather vice versa. Then again, the competetiveness in chinese schools is pretty brutal, at least if I can trust what my chinese colleagues have told me.
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Jrockwar
Unknown parent • • •The reason is better is because a number on its own doesn't provide any representation whatsoever of the passing of time. It represents the current observed time, but it does nothing to represent graphically how much of the day is left.
The arguably best representation of the passing of time is a 24h analogue watch/clock, even if that has its own set of issues which make it a terrible way of displaying the current time.
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rustydomino
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •No one knows how to read a sextant any more. The horror!!
Analog clocks are not really essential technology.
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xttweaponttx
in reply to rotopenguin • • •Steamymoomilk
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Who need analog clocks??
Want the time use digital!
Digital is to little use Millitary time?
Millitary time is to small?
Use UNIX TIME
The only thing i really use thats a dial/analog is calipers and micrometers.
Its like veirneer calipers, there just time consuming and inefficient to modern offerings
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luciferofastora
in reply to Steamymoomilk • • •it's now 18:53, and while I respect that it seems nonsensical when parsed as a number, I find 1853 more convenient to write on mobile (and it does save two keystrokes on keyboard too).
Miss me with that "1-1=12" shit.
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Steamymoomilk
in reply to luciferofastora • • •Question one for Advanced Algebra
Solve for time.
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kireotick
in reply to UncleGrandPa • • •Well you can use the clock for giving headings. "that tree at 10". Then you have historical and ornamental clocks which might be nice to read. Like you can not design a digital clock to look as good as an analog one.
But yeah. Probably not many reasons really
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Jax
in reply to UncleGrandPa • • •You can certainly make an argument for young kids, i.e. teaching fractions and literally how to count (counting seconds).
Teenagers? No, not really. They'll all have phones or something to tell the time by a certain age and hopefully they know their fractions / how to count. It might as well just be digital at that point.
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in reply to UncleGrandPa • • •Vivendi likes this.
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cactopuses
in reply to supertrucker • • •These days so would die also. That said, love me a mechanical clock and have a skeleton watch I daily drive.
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DillyDaily
in reply to UncleGrandPa • • •Accessibility.
We will never get rid of the analogue clocks from our school, we're an adult education and alternative model highschool qualifications centre.
We primarily teach adults with no to low English, adults and teens with disabilities, and adults and teens refered via corrections services.
There is a significant level of illiteracy within numeracy, and for some of our students, it's not a failing of the education system, it's just a fact of life given their specific circumstances (eg, acquired brain injuries are common among our students)
Some students can learn to tell time on an analogue clock even if they didn't know before.
But even my students who will never in their life be able to fully and independently remember and recall their numbers can tell the time with an analogue clock.
I tell my students "we will take lunch at 12pm, so if you look at the clock and the arms look like this /imitates a clock/ we will go to lunch"
And now I avoid 40 questions of "when's lunch?" because you don't need to tell time to see time with an analogue clock, they can physically watch the hands move, getting closer to the shape they recognise as lunch time.
And my other students can just read the time, from the clock, and not feel infantalised by having a disability friendly task clock like they've done at other centres I work at - they've had a digital clock for students who can tell time, and a task clock as the accessible clock. But a well designed face on an analogue clock can do both.
I myself have time blindness due to a neurological/CRD issue, so analogue clocks, and analogue timers are an accessibility tool for me as well, as the teacher.
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Unknown parent • • •Depends for me. In my casual day to day I don't but when I had a lot of appointments to meet I find it quicker to check the time on my wrist than bu fumbling for my smartphone in my pocket, something that is probably even more true for women if they store their phone in a small bag due to lack of pockets.
Also, sometimes I like leaving my phone at home because I have unfortunately developed the tendency to give it a short glance whenever I have downtime. If I still need to know the time I can still wear a wristwatch.
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in reply to Unforeseen • • •Unforeseen likes this.
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in reply to Rivalarrival • • •Destide
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •What's next morse code!?!
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in reply to HEXN3T • • •Walter White Walter GIF - Walter White Walter Falling - Discover & Share GIFs
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in reply to HEXN3T • • •There are analog clocks that show 24 hours.
alibaba.com/product-detail/Pro…
alibaba.com/product-detail/Pro…
Promotional Wall Mounted Clock China Quartz 24 Hour Analog Wall Clock - Buy 24 Hour Analog Wall Clock,Wall Mounted Clock,Wall Clock China Product on Alibaba.com
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to Kalysta • • •Feels like we have a limited amount of time to teach kids and we have more important things to teach them during that time
Edit:\
It'd be nice if all the fuckin edgelords downvoting had the courage to say what they'd like to remove from the curriculum to make room for fuckin analog clock lessons.
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in reply to OfficerBribe • • •Kalysta
in reply to TheSlad • • •I use my wristwatch all the time to take dogs’ pulses.
Having a cell phone next to a grumpy dog is asking for a broken cell phone. I’m sure people in other fields need wristwatches as well.
Just because you don’t use them don’t mean they’re not useful.
Rivalarrival
in reply to Unforeseen • • •- YouTube
youtu.benexguy
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bitMasque
in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •No, screw that whataboutism. When I went to school, I learned so much information that is virtually useless to most people, and not nearly enough skills and knowledge that would actually be helpful in daily life. I would like to see the situation improve for future generations.
Analogue clocks are everywhere and being able to read them is still important. Besides, if schools aren't even capable of teaching something so simple to students, I think that calls into question their ability to teach far more complex things.
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4lan
in reply to bitMasque • • •Perhaps the fact that we pay them like 30 grand a year is a factor?
That's how much my one bedroom apartment costs 😂 there's no money left over for food or loans or electricity or gas
Financial stress has been proven to make you dumber
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in reply to 4lan • • •ThatWeirdGuy1001
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bitMasque
in reply to ThatWeirdGuy1001 • • •I'm not screaming about the young people; I was "the young people" not that long ago. Not everyone who criticizes education is an out of touch boomer resisting every societal change.
Actually, analogue clocks have been obsoleted in almost every way by digital clocks for at least half a century, as digital wristwatches first hit the market in the 1970s. And yet, analogue clocks are still found everywhere. Classes, stores, train stations, homes, offices, not to mention the majority of wristwatches, still mostly use analogue clocks. In fact, excluding screens, I wouldn't be surprised if most people came across more analogue clocks than digital clocks on a daily basis. They're technologically obsolete, but haven't fallen out of use.
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ThatWeirdGuy1001
in reply to bitMasque • • •bitMasque
in reply to ThatWeirdGuy1001 • • •SpaceCowboy
in reply to bitMasque • • •I have to have an analog clock within sight in the morning. When I first wake up I'm too tired and bleary eyed to think about numbers but I know what angle the minute hand will be at when I have leave to catch the bus to work. When you're familiar with an analog clock it's far more user friendly than looking at some numbers and have to do some math. Sure it's simple math, but first thing in the morning, I'd rather just glance at the minute hand and when I see the angle I just know.
So I don't think it's not going away despite it being obsolete, it's not going away because it's more user friendly. Sure there's a learning curve, but once you've gotten the hang of it, it's a more efficient way for a human to get a sense of time, which in many cases is more important than having a numerical representation of time.
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to bitMasque • • •How is that whataboutism?
It's not that schools have become unable to teach kids to read analog clocks or kids have become unable to learn it. It's not that they can't it's that they don't
But speaking of whataboutism, your argument is literally "well what about all the useless stuff that I learned in school???" \
How about they stop teaching useless stuff, and the first things they can throw out are cursive and analog clocks.
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WalnutLum
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WalnutLum
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •It floors me just how many people in this thread feel like analog clock reading is a useless/outdated skill.
But I'm of the opinion that there's no such thing as a truly outdated and useless skill, so I'm not sure I have the capability to empathize with those people...
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Stalinwolf
in reply to WalnutLum • • •I perceive remaining time much better with an analogue clock. It's also why I perceive time in fractions. I think it's the superior clock, and people should probably learn to fucking read one since they're everywhere.
I also think it's kind of insane that we're not at least learning how to read cursive in schools anymore. There are countless documents written in English that English speakers will not be able to properly decipher.
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Tryptaminev
in reply to Stalinwolf • • •Tlaloc_Temporal likes this.
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to WalnutLum • • •It's not useless.
It's just less useful that other things that should be taught in school. There is only so much time in a school year, and it shouldn't replace those more useful things in the curriculum.
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4lan
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4lan
in reply to WalnutLum • • •As a person who prefers analog clocks I disagree
What benefit does analog bring over digital other than nostalgia?
Once is objectively faster to read granularly, by the minute
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WalnutLum
in reply to 4lan • • •For the usability of the clock, likely nothing.
I did mention In another comment that there are a number of advantages a round clockface provides to the creation of the clock, however.
WalnutLum
2024-08-17 02:37:07
flerp
in reply to TheSlad • • •I'm a watch nerd with a collection of mechanical watches and I'm not going to downvote you because you're right. I wear them because I like them even though I know they are anachronistic. I can't remember the last time I interacted with somebody significantly younger than me who was wearing a watch, and as I said, I'm a watch nerd, someone's watch is one of the first things I notice about them.
I will say that they are occasionally more convenient than other places I could check the time but I've built my life in such a way that I very rarely have to care about what time it is and I go weeks at a time without checking the time, just wearing them because I'm fascinated by tiny gears and springs doing their business and I like the feeling of it on my wrist.
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in reply to Encrypt-Keeper • • •AlexWIWA
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Emmie
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Analog clocks are kind of annoying tbh. Sometimes you need that little extra energy you have to spend on wondering whether it is 11:37 or 11:38 already by carefully visually bisecting the circle section between 7 and 8.
Millimetres of white space keep you wondering about the nature of analogue vs digital, discrete vs continuous and measurement uncertainty while you have better things to do but cannot just give up on OCDing whether it is exactly 11:37:30 already or maybe it is 11:37:35? And boom in these seconds you were wondering it is already pointless because it is the past and now it is time to wonder if it is 11:38:15 or 11:38:30
Whereas for digital it is just:
oh it is 11:11 on 11.11.11, how cool, life’s good
Thus it is my opinion that analogue clocks are virgins whereas digital are chads
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el_abuelo
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el_abuelo
in reply to Emmie • • •There's a huge difference between "most clocks" and "most clocks I've seen" - especially if your clock experience is restricted to schools.
Do you see a lot of schools? Do you know whether the schools you've been to all use the same supplier? How broad is your school clock experience? How many clocks do you think you've seen, ever?
Most clocks I've seen recently (I can recall exactly 1) have seconds hands. Regardless though I'm not suggesting "most clocks" have seconds hands...I'm just making a quip about how traditional, analogue, clocks have seconds hands to deal with the exact problems noted.
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Emmie
in reply to el_abuelo • • •And yet in schools they don’t have seconds. Never had
I still have ptsd thanks to that. Can you imagine? No seconds?
This is pure torture that should be forbidden by Geneva convention. So uncivilised
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el_abuelo
in reply to Emmie • • •I cannot fathom such deep despair for I only live in a world of seconds.
God speed my simple friend. God speed.
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DNOS
in reply to Emmie • • •sheogorath
in reply to Emmie • • •I love having an analog clock. It makes it feel like you have more time compared to a digital clock, making me more relaxed. For example, if the time is 12:34 PM, my subconscious will think, "Ahh, shit, 26 more minutes before 1 PM." But with an analog clock, I read it as around half an hour before 1 PM. The visual representation also helps, like seeing that there is a distance that the hands need to travel to reach a certain time.
All in all, I very much prefer having analog clocks vs digital when given the chance.
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in reply to SpaceCowboy • • •SpaceCowboy
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in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •ClassifiedPancake
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in reply to WalnutLum • • •Albbi likes this.
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in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •Y'all sound like old farts crying about how schools stopped using slide rules and how modern music just isn't as good.
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PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to Pilferjinx • • •There is some truth to that, but this doesn't seem like the thing to focus on, if that's the goal. Surely there is a better subject to fulfill those needs.
Like... If we all forgot how to keep time, and we had to invent a new system of time keeping... Surely we could do better than what we have now.
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ziggurat
in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •You sound like someone who doesn't know how to read an analoge clock.
I bet you could figure it out if you looked it up. And you would be better for it ❤️
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in reply to Encrypt-Keeper • • •ziggurat
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Encrypt-Keeper
in reply to ziggurat • • •PeriodicallyPedantic
in reply to ziggurat • • •You sound like one of those edgelords who acts like grumpy old men who cry at young people for doing things differently.
I bet you could stop talking and everyone would like you better ♥️
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UnderpantsWeevil
in reply to PeriodicallyPedantic • • •No publisher, no byline, no way to know what the source of the claim is coming from.
But they did include a bit of meme art, so it seems indisputable.
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in reply to variants • • •variants likes this.
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ddh
in reply to Kalysta • • •Emmie
in reply to WalnutLum • • •🤢 what an utter abomination
This is why puppies die
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in reply to Alexstarfire • • •texasspacejoey
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DNOS
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •I can ready It but i get teens Who dont
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in reply to DNOS • • •like this
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DNOS
in reply to WIZARD POPE💫 • • •SpaceCowboy
in reply to DNOS • • •Analog clocks are a better representation of how we think of time than a digital clock.
If someone looks and immediately afterwards someone asks them for the time, they will look at their watch again. The number isn't really what matters, it's "how long until X will happen" that matters more.
You know you're meeting is at 10:30, you see it's 9:55. You know it's about a half hour until the meeting, and the meeting will happen when that big hand gets to the bottom. The numbers themselves won't do that for you, you have to think 60 minutes in an hour, 60-5 = 5 + 30 = 35 minutes away. When you check the digital clock again you see 10:17, so you have to think 30-17 = 13 minutes until the meeting. But with an analog clock it's like a reusable progress bar (well progress arc to be more accurate). Quick glance and you see how far the minute hand has to go and you're good.
Sure the mental math needed to get a sense of time with a digital clock isn't all that hard. But it is an additional step over the adhoc progress arcs that analog clocks provide.
Digital clocks are fine and all, but are just slightly worse than analog clocks. Just how technology is going I guess, always giving us something that's technically more advanced but worse for humans to interface with.
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GelatinGeorge
in reply to SpaceCowboy • • •like this
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SpaceCowboy
in reply to GelatinGeorge • • •1030-955=75. So intuitively, it would be 75 minutes until the meeting. Oh wait... maybe it's not intuitive?
210 degree arc is always going to be 35 minutes. Whether it's the 35 minutes from 9:55 to 10:30 or 9:50 to 10:25 or 3:15 to 3:50 or whatever. Sure you have to get used to the arcs. But once you do, it's a quick glance at the minute hand and seeing how far away it is from the time of the meeting (or whatever the next thing is). Time for a computer is a number, time for a human is how long until a thing is going to happen.
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Raglesnarf
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •leadore
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •edit to add: My brother recently told me that he was at the library and his friend's teenage daughter looked at the analog clock and said indignantly "I can't read that!" So apparently it is true that people aren't learning simple skills like this.
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lud
in reply to leadore • • •I personally know how to read an analog watch but I do it so rarely that it takes a bit of time thinking before I figure it out and convert it to 24 hour time. Because I use digital time absolutely everywhere and never analog time.
Hell I even got a digital wrist watch, mostly because it's easier and faster to read for me but also because it's more accurate. I will admit that the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy also played a role in the purchase.
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in reply to lud • • •like this
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lud
in reply to leadore • • •But the main reason, It's easier to tell exactly what the time is in seconds when it's digital compared to a fast spinning stick. Not that it really matters, I just like it.
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Anti-Face Weapon
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •like this
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zarkanian
in reply to Anti-Face Weapon • • •Wait...you think those are intuitive? Fuck no.
Who's going to intuitively know that "long hand pointing at 2" means "10 minutes after the hour"? Also, having the long hand for minutes is super unintuitive when hours are longer than minutes.
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GaMEChld
in reply to zarkanian • • •May not be super intuitive, but getting rid of them is intellectually lazy. If you know an hour is 60 minutes, it makes enough sense.
If an hour is 60 minutes, 60/12 is 5 minutes per number on the clock. Long hand is minutes because there are more minutes in a day than hours. Or at least that's how I can rationalize it.
If you can explain an analog clock that quickly, it's just lazy for them to not learn it. It also has cross application to make people more comfortable with mental math and multiples commonly seen in trigonometry.
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leadore
in reply to zarkanian • • •Minutes are the smaller time division with 60 possible values so that hand is longer to reach to the tick marks for easier reading of the exact minute.
The hour hand only needs to distinguish between 12 possible values that are more spread out around the perimeter, so it doesn't need to reach very far to tell which hour out of 12 it is.
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in reply to JordanZ • • •Etterra
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •gnu likes this.
leadore
in reply to Arun Shah™ • • •OK let's have a lesson for those who find this difficult. First, remember that little kids pick this up quickly and easily, so you can too!
We all know there are 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, and 24 hours in a day, right? and that the day is divided into the a.m. of 12 hours and the p.m. of 12 hours.
So analog clocks show those 12 hours as the numbers 1-12 evenly spaced around the clock face. Now look a little closer and you see it's also divided into 60 marks with a tick mark for each of the 60 seconds/minute or 60 minutes/hour. Hang on, we're almost there!
The little hand points to the HOUR number (1-12). If it's in between two numbers, that means the time is in between those two hours.
The big hand points to the MINUTE tick mark. Notice that the 1-12 numbers coincide with each 5th tick mark so it's easy to count them. Just count by 5's! So if the big hand is between the 3 and the 4, that means the minute of the hour is between 15 and 20, look at which tick mark for the exact minute.
Now, can you figure out how the second hand works? Good! Kindergarten dismissed!
/s
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