@informapirata :privacypride: @Signor Amministratore
...e ci risiamo! L'istanza che mi ospitava, nerdica.net, รจ morta. ๐ซ
Grazie a Poliverso per offrimi nuova dimora Friendica, e grazie @Signor Amministratore per l'aiuto nel tentativo (vano purtroppo), di importare un mio backup.
___
Igor Calรฌ ๐ดโโ ๏ธ ๐ณ๏ธโ๐ ๐ฎ๐น
in reply to informapirata :privacypride: โข 02/05/2023 22.09 โ (Torino, Piedmont, Italy) โข โข
@informapirata :privacypride: : Fu una scelta veloce ed un po' in emergenza. Ero iscritto da poco (abbandonando fb dopo ennesimo flaming da impossibilitร di confrontarsi civilmente/scientificamente su temi sensibili) ad un'altra istanza che non sapevo fosse sperimentale (era un embrione poi abortito di ciรฒ che sarebbe stato sociale.network di @gubi@sociale.network).
Ne cercavi velocemente una che fosse attiva e con un numero sufficiente di utenti da non farmi temere nuova scomparsa non annunciata.
Volendo #friendica per usi piรน "personali" o "privati" e volendo faceti rispetto ad un microblogging alla #mastodon, ed avendo un "nerd" nel nome, ho fatto un tentativo...
Detto questo, come nella vita reale non credo di aver trovato un posto che possa chiamar "casa"... su #friendica, #mastodon o #pixelfed. Sono aperto a proposte e suggerimenti (anche perchรฉ sarรฒ pure per l'approccio internazionalista, ma perchรฉ non contribuire alla propria micro-comunitร natia?!).
Non cito #diaspora perchรฉ nel mio percepito son d'accordo con quanto scrivevi piรน su. Mi sembra morente e credo che in questo momento soffra anche dei propri limiti di federabilitร .
Tyler K. Nothing
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Tyler K. Nothing • • •It's mainly Ello's gradual abandonment of their stated principles that I was trying to draw attention to ๐
They took VC funding up front, and ended up doing stuff they said they wouldn't do.
Isaac Ji Kuo
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@tylerknowsnothing
I'm so tired of people trusting face-eating leopards and being like, "But they posted that they won't eat faces! In bullet point form!"
Tim_Eagon
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Oblomov reshared this.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Tim_Eagon • • •@Tim_Eagon
Exactly! That's possibly why BlueSky's structure is so complex, to disguise this.
Oblomov reshared this.
Tim_Eagon
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Askan ๐ช๐บ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Askan ๐ช๐บ • • •If it's not community-owned, it's not sustainable. Eventually VC-owned networks enshittify because the VCs want to see a return on their investment, and we end up with another Twitter/X or Meta/Facebook situation. Once they stop growing users, they start trying to squeeze more money out of each user etc etc, or else sell the company to someone awful.
The entire point of the Fediverse is to do things differently, to have slow sustainable growth so that enshittification doesn't happen.
Oblomov reshared this.
Askan ๐ช๐บ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •that is a fair point, even though looking back, those types of social networks have quite a long shelf life.
My sympathy for the Fediverse is very high, also for FOSS, still the "other" models are much bigger. I do not see it changing.
Seeing federation with many flavors becoming a new business model is more than interesting.
Raphael Lullis
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@askans
This is a false dilemma: you can have commercial alternatives that are neither VC-owned nor "community owned", and you can have plenty of profit-based service providers that will be completely happy to serve a large-but-limited number of customers.
Give me 10-15k paying customers, and I will be able to run communick forever, even taking some of the profits to reinvest into development of the underlying projects. None of the "community owned" instances can do that.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Raphael Lullis • • •There is a world of difference between making a sustainable stable profit and taking VC money.
If you receive enough money to keep a business going, that's great. You have built a sustainable business. ๐
If you take VC money to run a business at a loss in pursuit of growth, you will eventually have to start enshittifying in order to keep the VCs happy because they're partial owners of your business now. They don't just want profit, they want growth of profit.
1/3
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@raphael
If you look at the Ello article linked in the original post, it goes into detail about the problems of accepting VC money.
BlueSky isn't just for-profit, it's taken VC money and will therefore have to provide VCs perpetually growing profits. This will eventually become impossible unless they enshittify.
VC money is incredibly corrosive to the online world and real life world, because it demands that everything grows all the time, it's impossible to just stay at a steady state.
2/3
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Any kind of ownership model is possible on the Fediverse because it is designed to be as open as possible to anyone who wants to start a server, including individuals, non-profits, for-profits.
BlueSky is different. It has been designed to depend on corporate-owned feeds that have a much higher barrier to entry. In an interview, BS mentioned they might have ads in the future. Combined with their VC ownership, these are all the ingredients for another Meta/Facebook or Twitter/X.
3/3
Raphael Lullis
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •I am responding to your "If it's not community-owned, it's not sustainable" statement. This is the meme that needs to die.
I'd actually think it's the opposite: aside from instances that require payment from all members, I'm yet to see any service that can call itself sustainable.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Raphael Lullis • • •@raphael
Perhaps we disagree on what sustainable means?
I'd mean continuing to operate over a long period without exploiting users ("enshittifying"). There are plenty of instances that have done this, some of them date back to 2016 or before.
VC-backed services tend to demand growth within such a time frame. Continuing to exist in a stable state is incompatible with VC ownership.
Raphael Lullis
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •What about the other side of the equation? How many instances disappeared due to moderator and admin burn out?
How many instances were created by enthusiastic people who were simply not able to manage it properly and shut their instances down when got their first wave of spam? How long do you think regular folks will be willing to keep hopping around because they picked an instance ran by amateurs?
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Raphael Lullis • • •@raphael
That's a totally fair point, maybe the biggest challenge for the Fediverse. I just don't think that VC is the answer to it.
VC tends to turn a service to crap while the VC people walk away with the money and don't care what happens to the service itself. They just wanted the money all along.
Raphael Lullis
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •> They just wanted the money all along.
Again, doing things for money is not the problem and it is not something that only "evil VCs" do.
I don't expect to get food on my table out of goodwill of a "community-focused" farmer. I don't expect electric power in my home out of the community. Why should I expect social media services to be provided out of "community"?
If developers still go to VCs for funding projects, it's because "the community" is not valuing their work.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Raphael Lullis • • •@raphael
Doing things for money is not the problem. We all have to do get money to survive.
Doing things ONLY for money or structuring your product so that it can easily be taken over by such people is the problem.
"Why should I expect social media services to be provided out of "community"?"
Because of the effects of social networks that are run by growth-chasers:
amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/โฆ
thebureauinvestigates.com/storโฆ
theguardian.com/technology/202โฆ
etc etc etc.
Rohingya sue Facebook for ยฃ150bn over Myanmar genocide
Dan Milmo (The Guardian)Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Ideally we need this to be publicly funded, and a lot of Fediverse development has been, but obviously not enough. This also doesn't cover the running of servers.
I agree we have a funding crisis for developers, but VC money is not the answer because it causes developers' work to be used to do horrible things further down the line.
Raphael Lullis
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Please, "public-funded" is just a masturbatory idea that only appeals to people who never created anything. Or worse, armchair analysts who refuse to put any Skin in the Game.
The bureaucracy alone would grind innovation to a halt, and if you think that corporate-controlled communication networks are bad, imagine if they were controlled by politicians.
Raphael Lullis
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •You are stuck in the VC-community duality and refusing to acknowledge an alternative that does not require infinite growth, but does require more than feel-good promises of support.
Let me try a different approach... If VCs are not acceptable, what would be best:
- commercial providers like communick, or omg.lol, or mastodon.green (all charging 20-30 USD per year?) from all members?
- donation-based instances that historically never get to 2% of the user base to contribute?
Askan ๐ช๐บ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Sub.club is here to help the fediverse make money
Jay Peters (The Verge)Fedi.Tips
in reply to Askan ๐ช๐บ • • •@askans
Absolutely not, "sub club" is made by the Mammoth devs who use VC money too.
There are already lots of donation platforms like @Liberapay, Ko-Fi etc which are widely used on the Fediverse.
Askan ๐ช๐บ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Askan ๐ช๐บ • • •@askans
There are usually donation links on people's profile pages if they accept donations.
For servers, they may have donation links on their admin's profile page and/or on the server's website.
Lรฉon Planken
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Arena Cops ๐บ๐ฆโ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •If you've been happy after having left twitter, why should you be happy to be connected to another product of Jack Dorsey, who sold a manipulative corporate medium to another manipulator, to fund his next manipulative project?
No thanks, BlueSky! Good riddance!
Becky
in reply to Arena Cops ๐บ๐ฆโ • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Becky • • •@RenewedRebecca @ArenaCops
The VC owners remain, and they're the main concern. (The Ello article expands on why.)
Kuba Suder โข @mackuba.eu on ๐ฆ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Code of Amor ๐
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Sensitive content
Emelia ๐ธ๐ป
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •that's a minimum of R$28 per month in a country where average monthly wages are like R$ 2979 (IBGE 2023), so even a small amount to Americans and Europeans can actually be a significant amount to others based on income and exchange rates.
And a lot of fediverse servers cost waaaay more than $5 / mo to operate.
Oblomov reshared this.
Oblomov
in reply to Emelia ๐ธ๐ป • • •Emelia ๐ธ๐ป
in reply to Oblomov • • •Oblomov reshared this.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Emelia ๐ธ๐ป • • •@thisismissem @oblomov
"We need to bring costs down and make hosting easier and cheaper."
There are managed hosting services which do all the technical stuff for you, behind the scenes, included in the price.
For example masto.host etc. I use it myself, never had to do any techy stuff.
"And a lot of fediverse servers cost waaaay more than $5 / mo to operate."
Hopefully big servers tend to get more donations from their users.
Masto.host - Fully Managed Mastodon Hosting
Masto.hostOblomov reshared this.
Emelia ๐ธ๐ป
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@oblomov ypu still have the moderation, learning about trust and safety, understanding community management, covering costs for your community, understanding harms and how to deal with them, legal compliance, financials, etc etc.
A lot of work goes into running any instance that's more than a few people, and anything less and you're suffering through all that alone.
Oblomov reshared this.
Alex โ๐จ๐ฆ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@thisismissem @oblomov and their is lots of work being done making federated servers that are far easier to setup and run.
codeberg.org/superseriousbusinโฆ
gotosocial
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Oblomov
in reply to Alex โ๐จ๐ฆ • • •Janne Moren
in reply to Emelia ๐ธ๐ป • • •@thisismissem
And it's only "anyone" that has the technical knowledge and the free time to install, configure and maintain a cloud service.
That is, almost nobody.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Janne Moren • • •@jannem @thisismissem
"And it's only anyone that has the technical knowledge and the free time to install, configure and maintain a cloud service."
No, this isn't true any more.
Anyone can use managed hosting services like masto.host which do the techy stuff behind the scenes, it's included in the price.
I have a whole website trying to encourage more non-technical people to use managed hosting services at growyourown.services
Ceremus
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@jannem @thisismissem
Technical and financial burden is one thing, are we educating people about the legal burdens as well? Are people being made aware of the need to register a DMCA agent if in the US, even if merely a single-person instance? Not to mention the additional moderation and legal responsibilities for a multi-user or open sign-up instance?
denise.dreamwidth.org/91757.htโฆ
Captcha Check
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Fedi.Tips
in reply to Ceremus • • •@ceremus @jannem @thisismissem
Yeah, that's fair comment, and in my site's guide (growyourown.services/making-yoโฆ) have tried to emphasise there may be legal requirements in many countries especially if you're running a public server, that people should get legal advice for their jurisdiction about this topic. Also encourage people to start out on a private single user server, not a public one.
(But this isn't any easier on BlueSky or anywhere else though.)
How to create your own Mastodon server in 10 steps โ Grow Your Own Services
growyourown.servicesThe Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •I disagree. vivaldi.social, bbc.social, and me.dm are all part of the fediverse despite being run by corporations. Flipboard, Wordpress, Ghost, and Discourse are all part of the fediverse,
There's plenty of historical precedent for this too -- Evan Prodromou's StatusNet (which evolved into GnuSocial, the basis of the early fediverse) took VC funding in 2009. Diaspora joined YCombinator for a while. etc etc etc
Oblomov
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Oblomov • • •Yeah, those examples you give aren't really the same thing.
On BlueSky there aren't just corporate servers, but the infrastructure itself is designed to be run by corporations. You are forced to pipe your content via corporations, in effect.
On the Fediverse, you can completely ignore or even block corporate servers, there's no need to have anything to do with them. Every server is totally independent, and connect to each other directly.
Joe Vinegar reshared this.
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •I don't understand either of these objections.
@oblomov agreed that if any of these corporate-run servers controlled the entire network that would be a different thing, but they don't, and neither does Bluesky. Flipboard controls Flipboard, Wordpress controls Wordpress.com. viviadi controls vivaldi.social. Bluesky controls bsky.social. Why do you see that as different?
@FediTips I'm suggesting that Bluesky is one of those indendent servers. People on other fediverse instances can ignore it or block it; people on Bluesky can ignore people elsewhere in the fediverse. How does that as different from people on Flipboard or Wordpress.com who are also forced to pipe their content via the corporations that run them?
And in terms of the infrastructure itself being designed to run by corporations, that's exactly why StatusNet got funding, and it was clearly considered part of the fediverse.
@FediTips @oblomov
Oblomov
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •you either have no understanding of how BS operates or are intentionally misrepresenting the situation. The Fediverse is built on top of ActivityPub, which is a W3C standard. No corporation controls the network. BlueSky has complete control of the AT protocol, which is what it uses for federation.
The Fediverse is defined by independent interoperable projects. The AT network is defined by what BlueSky decides.
Joe Vinegar reshared this.
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •Joe Vinegar reshared this.
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Oblomov • • •First of all I strongly disagree with the idea of equating the fediverse with ActivityPub. The fediverse existed before ActiivityPub, and has always supported multiple protocols Yes, AP's been dominant ever since Mastodon did embrace-extend-extinguish thing and replaced OStatus with AP in 2017, but history didn't end at that point.
But, even taking the AP-centric view of the fediverse, I think Bluesky qualifies as a fediverse instance. Diaspora, Flipboard, Wordpress ... none of them are built on top of AP internally, but they're all considered part of the fediverse. And yes, any instance running any software can unilaterally cut themselves off from the rest of the fediverse, either by turning off all federation or making a change at the software level (disabling a bridge or plugin, changing to a new protocol). Until that happens, though, they're part of the fediverse.
@oblomov @FediTips
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •But maybe we're just viewing things differently in general, so let's calibrate:
For me the answer is yes to all. (On the last one, I think the fediverse would have been better off collectively blocking Threads just like they did Gab ... but that didn't happen.). But, maybe we also see those differently!
@oblomov @FediTips
Oblomov
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy
I do not consider Diaspora part of the Fediverse, and AFAIK it has never been considered part of the Fediverse, even in the OStatus days.
WordPress is not part of the Fediverse as such. The WordPress installations that have an enabled ActivityPub plugin are.
1/n
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@thenexusofprivacy
Flipboard and Threads AFAIK do not implement full bidirectional federation, and until they do they cannot be considered part of the Fediverse proper, even though they're working to join (whether this is good or bad is an entirely different matter and OT for this discussion).
BlueSky isn't part of the Fediverse *at all* because it doesn't support ActivityPub in any shape or form (and no, the bridge doesn't count any more than the Twitter bridges do).
2/n
Joe Vinegar reshared this.
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@thenexusofprivacy
What the platform uses internally is not particularly important. The degree of support for ActivityPub they strive for (and thus the effort to interoperate with the rest of the Fediverse) is.
Friendica and Hubzilla are examples of platform that are part of the Fediverse despite having their own protocols (DFRN, Zot), because they also support ActivityPub, aiming for full interoperability.
3/n
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@thenexusofprivacy
BlueSky has no intention to interoperate with the rest of the Fediverse. It's entirely focused on its own protocol, of which they maintain complete control, with no intention to also support ActivityPub. Hence they cannot be considered part of the Fediverse.
4/4
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reshared this
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The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Oblomov • • •Thanks for the clarification, I think I understand your position now -- your criteria is full bidiretional federation currently implemented, support of ActivityPub, and not using a bridge. Is that an accurate summary?
@oblomov @FediTips
Oblomov
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Oblomov • • •Thanks!
On Diaspora, btw, opinions differ. Wikipedia, fediverse.party, and fediverse.observer all include it as part of the fedvierse; FediDB did until sometime last year (when joindiaspora shut down). But others don't see it that way.
@oblomov @FediTips
Fedi.Tips
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy @oblomov
Diaspora cannot communicate with most of the Fediverse due to lacking ActivityPub compatibility. That doesn't mean Diaspora is a bad network, it just means it's separate.
My own take is that it gets a bit difficult for new people if we use the same name ("Fediverse") for two separate incompatible networks.
It is possible to be on both though if you use Friendica.
Oblomov reshared this.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy @oblomov
BlueSky is its own network, it isn't part of the Fediverse.
Flipboard is a website which is part of the Fediverse, no one is forced to use it or have anything to do with it. Some publications choose to have accounts there, but they aren't forced to.
WordPress is a bit more complicated as there are two things: wordpress.com and the WordPress software. The software is free open source, anyone can install it on their own servers, they don't have to use wordpress.com.
Oblomov reshared this.
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Thanks for the response ... I guess we just see it differently. To me, both Bluesky, and Flipboard are all their own social media sites. Nobody is forced to use them or have anything do do with them. Some publications choose to have accounts there but aren't forced to. Reasnable minds differ, I guess!
@FediTips @oblomov
Thiago Skรกrnio
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Oblomov
in reply to Thiago Skรกrnio • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Thiago Skรกrnio • • •@skarnio @oblomov @thenexusofprivacy
The AT protocol created for BlueSky depends on "relays", which are expensive to run, which in effect means corporations would run them. BS servers cannot work without being connected to these relays, so BS is effectively forcing everyone to be connected to corporations.
More details at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT_Protoโฆ
There's no clear financial incentive for corporations to run relays, so presumably they are expected to extract data and/or insert advertising.
social networking protocol
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Thiago Skรกrnio
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Oblomov
in reply to Thiago Skรกrnio • • •Thiago Skรกrnio
in reply to Oblomov • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Thiago Skรกrnio • • •@skarnio @oblomov @thenexusofprivacy
Relays on the Fediverse aren't quite the same thing, they're optional, cheaper to run and are mainly run by volunteers.
Thiago Skรกrnio
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Thiago Skรกrnio • • •@skarnio @oblomov @thenexusofprivacy
Agreed.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Thiago Skรกrnio • • •@skarnio @oblomov @thenexusofprivacy
No.
Fediverse servers are totally independent, they communicate with each other directly.
Laurens Hof
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@skarnio @oblomov @thenexusofprivacy
you can run a full network relay on atproto for 150 usd per month
whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3kwzl7โฆ
Notes on Running a Full-Network atproto Relay (July 2024) | bryan newbold
whtwnd.comOblomov
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Laurens Hof
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @skarnio @thenexusofprivacy
those are completely different things.
the closest comparison is hosting your own PDS on atproto, which is even cheaper than that.
But fundamentally, atproto has a different network architecture, where it splits network storage/identity away from the frontend software.
ATproto is: data storage (PDS, anyone can run one, decentralised), aggregated into full network relay, processed by appview into microblogging app
Oblomov
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Laurens Hof
in reply to Oblomov • • •other products build on atproto, such as event planner smokesignal.events, skip the relay altogether and do not use the relay at all. I am not 100% sure but I think linkaggregator Frontpage.fyi skips the relay as well. So not, it is not designed to be dependent on that, it is an optimalisation part for Bluesky.
Qazm
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •@laurenshof @oblomov @skarnio @thenexusofprivacy
Both of those are still AppViews, which are more expensive to run than Relays.
While PDSs (write access to the network) are indeed cheap, read access definitely is not, especially since the cost scales with total network activity for each reader with the current PDS and Relay features.
Not saying that it's a bad protocol per se, because there is clear demand for global indexing and singleton frontends and ActivityPub is bad at those aspects, but the protocol economics are completely prohibitive for most indie participants in terms of providing unenshittified end user access.
Thiago Skรกrnio
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Oblomov
in reply to Thiago Skรกrnio • • •@skarnio @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy there are several protocols that do things similarly, most famously SSB, that turned 10 a couple of months ago.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Sโฆ
distributed social network
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Oblomov • • •I've just started experimenting with hosting my own GoToSocial instance (hiiii!!!!) and it's great ... but hashtags and search only include posts from people I follow, and the federated feed is almost empty, so there's essentially no access to global conversations. So it's not a comparison.
(Although I also don't think hosting your own PDS is really an equivalent of your own instance either. There isn't really an equivalent of anything but flagship instances (a combination of AppView, Relay, and PDS) in the AT architecture.)
@oblomov @laurenshof @FediTips @skarnio @thenexusofprivacy
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •Yikes. I made the parent reply on my self-hosted GtS instance an hour ago ... I didn't get a notification on this account, which I thought was weird, but whatever. But then I looked at the thread and realized that the post hadn't federated here. What's with that? So just now I did a search here to see if I could find the GtS post ... and it did. At which point the notifiation showed up here as well.
wtf. Who knows if it's an AP "by design" issue, or some kind of bug, or what.
@nexus @oblomov @laurenshof @FediTips @skarnio
Oblomov
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Oblomov • • •yeah, kind of the online equivalent of theguardian.com/uk-news/articlโฆ
@oblomov @nexus @laurenshof @FediTips @skarnio
Postcard sent 121 years ago finally arrives at Swansea address
Sammy Gecsoyler (The Guardian)Oblomov reshared this.
Oblomov
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Oblomov • • •Well, even large fedi instances dont have access to the whole network. In general though I agree that there's a parallel to the way AT gives power to large Relays and AppViews and how AP gives power to large instances.
Relays seem like they'll be a lot cheaper to scale than instances, but it's early days so we shall see. There's a lot of experitmentation going on with smaller AppViews leveraging large Relays, again though it's hard to know how it'll work out in practice.
On the other hand when Threads looked at it they decided AP was a better target to exploit than AT, so I wouldn't assume that AP's more resistant to centralization than AT.
@oblomov @nexus @laurenshof @FediTips @skarnio
Oblomov
in reply to The Nexus of Privacy • • •@thenexusofprivacy @nexus @laurenshof @skarnio
It's not so much that AP is more resistant as much as AT is essentially designed with it in mind. Yes, you can have a heavy centralized AP-based network, and you can have AT networks isolated from the BS one, but that's not what either of those is designed and intended for.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @thenexusofprivacy @skarnio
There's also the question of who is in charge. BS is run by a for-profit funded by VC money, this is a really dangerous combination. VC money almost always leads to enshittification in the long term, because VC-owned companies run out of any other way to grow profits.
The Nexus of Privacy
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Agreed that Bluesky shouldn't be trusted, they're VC-funded and are likely to go the exploitative and/or enshittification route once there's revenue pressure. In terms of the original question as to whether or not they should be considered part of the fediverse, that puts them in the same category as Wordpress and Flipboard. It's intellectually consistent to say none of them are; it's not intellectually consistent to say Wordpress and Flipboard are but Bluesky isn't for this reason. (Although other reasons for excluding them might be intellectually consistent, for example the Diaspora analogy -- I don't particularly agree with it, but it hangs together, it's just a different conclusion that flows from a different view of whether bridges not implemented by a platform count)
And @oblomov you're right that AP wasn't specifically designed for giving an advantage to large instances. I once asked Evan what scalability analysis had been done as part of the standardization process and he said "none!" Still, it's an obvious consequence of the protocol, nothing's been done to address that over the years, and Threads decided it's a good match for them. So I don't see as much of a difference on that front as you do.
@FediTips @skarnio
Thiago Skรกrnio
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Devil
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •SecretAntelope ๐โ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Stephen Darby
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Stephen Darby • • •@stepchook
There's no regional filter, as there is no location information collected about users.
However, some servers include an optional visibility setting that makes posts only visible to other people on the same server. So, if you were on a regional server with such a setting, that would be somewhat like a regional filter?
Another alternative is to post to groups that are dedicated to particular regions. More about groups here: fedi.tips/how-to-use-groups-onโฆ
How to use groups on Mastodon and the Fediverse | Fedi.Tips โ An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tipsFedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •@Crab22
Threads is part of Meta, aka Facebook. They're even worse:
thebureauinvestigates.com/storโฆ
Facebook accused by survivors of letting activists incite ethnic massacres with hate and misinformation in Ethiopia
Jasper Jackson (The Bureau of Investigative Journalism)Fedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •@ben
They had some severe security problems and seemed to disappear after that. More info at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hive_Socโฆ
social App
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)naturaldynamics
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to naturaldynamics • • •@natureshelperokanaganhighlands
VC money is not financial support, it's giving ownership to people who want constant financial growth. That's what the article about Ello goes into depth about.
That's why so much of the internet is enshittifying, the constant chasing of growth (not just profit but ever-increasing profit) at the expense of users' privacy and safety.
Fedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •@jeffries @askans
I'm not mad at anyone, I'm concerned about history repeating itself if we keep using social networks that have dangerous structural and governance problems.
Most people don't care about this stuff directly, but they do care about the practical effects. Brazilians are having to leave Twitter because it is a centralised network with bad governance, for example.
Dan Kletter ๐ฅ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Dan Kletter ๐ฅ • • •@soundclamp
Yes, but that's because they've got money from VCs to play with so they can build up market share.
Eventually the VCs will demand something in return, and that's when the enshittification begins. That's why I linked to the article about Ello, it goes into detail about this, from Ello's birth to death.
If we want to break out of this cycle, we need to stop using social networks that depend on VC money.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •p.s. Some misunderstanding of what is required to start a Fediverse server. You don't need to install software or do anything technical to create a Fedi server.
There are many managed hosting companies that do all tech stuff for you behind the scenes, including updates and maintenance. Using managed hosting is about as difficult as setting up an email account.
I run a website at growyourown.services to encourage more non-technical people to try managed hosting.
Grow Your Own Services โ A beginner's guide to creating your own little corner of the Internet
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Code of Amor ๐
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Sensitive content
Bit_form
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •SomeAnoTooter
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •If it is priced correctly, demand could be high, especially if alternatives to the fediverse are becoming more annoying/worse.
Just think about Twitter blue or however that is called now. People/bots already pay for that. People could be convinced that their own fedi server service would be more beneficial than this blue mark.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •p.p.s. Another significant difference between the Fediverse and BlueSky:
- The official BlueSky app collects personal data.
- Most Fediverse apps (including the official Mastodon app) do not collect any personal data.
If BlueSky is already collecting personal data now, what do you think will happen a few years down the line when they're pushing for more profit growth?
BlueSky is full of red flags.
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masukomi
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to masukomi • • •I wouldn't really call that data collection?
Collecting is where a piece of data is taken without explicit consent. A user deciding to post something themselves using visibility settings they've decided is pretty much the opposite?
The core idea of privacy policies is to give users more control over what data is shared about them. If they're the only ones controlling the sharing, that means they have full control.
masukomi
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to masukomi • • •If you click on "details", it turns out that the "contact info" on BlueSky means your phone number. Phone numbers are used by data brokers to discover people's identity across multiple data sets. That's why Facebook, Twitter etc started suddenly pushing people so hard to give their phone numbers, because it opens the door for a surveillance bonanza.
Once you give a corporation your phone number, they can usually find out your real name, postal address etc etc.
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Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@masukomi
I don't think people know this when they give their phone numbers, so it seems unclear if it is informed consent?
masukomi
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •right, i fully agree about the data collection bad, BUT i was more getting at 2 things:
1. the mastodon disclaimer is misleading because mastodon servers do collect user content even if the mobile app technically doesn't. it just passes it on to the server. That's prolly true of the bluesky one too.
2. consent doesn't effect the requirement to have the label.
Yes, mastodon is radically better, but it doesn't collect nothing. it just collects nothing you don't want it to.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to masukomi • • •Data collection isn't the same thing at all as a user choosing to post something. If you say they are the same thing, it is just giving cover for privacy-invading services to claim they are the same as privacy-respectful services.
The only thing a Fediverse server knows about you is:
-Whatever email you used to sign up with (it can be throwaway or an alias)
-Whatever IP address you're using (which is true for any internet service)
-Whatever you choose to post on your account
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@masukomi
Fedi servers know the bare minimum about their users. They're doing the right thing.
BlueSky is requiring more info than they need for the service to operate. They're doing the wrong thing.
masukomi
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •yup. not arguing any of these points. just that the label on the mastodon app is misleading. The blue-sky app probably just funnels all the ๐ฉ up to the servers like the mastodon apps do. By that logic neither collects anything, but they BOTH do.
WHAT they collect & what makes it acceptable or not it is a separate discussion.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to masukomi • • •The Mastodon app isn't sending any data back to its makers.
The BlueSky app IS sending data back to its makers.
That's why their labels are so different.
If I use the Mastodon app with a server that isn't mastodon.social or mastodon.online, then the makers of the app never hear anything about me. What the servers collect is separate from what apps collect because on a federated network you aren't necessarily using the app on a server that the app makers have any connection to.
Genius(redacted)
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •As Eau
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@masukomi In the most literal sense any method that involves a user's data ending up in your possesion is collection. Far from providing cover it makes a hard line. When someone posts on your server they are explicitly requesting that data collection under the terms as set when they joined.
That all this is counted as collection means there are hard limits on what you can do with the data and you can demand that all data they have on you be deleted.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to As Eau • • •The guide to data collection on the app store is intended to help ordinary users work out which apps are better for their privacy.
If the app doesn't collect data, that's what it should say on the guide.
"In the most literal sense any method that involves a user's data ending up in your possesion is collection. "
But it doesn't end up in their possession. Most people on Mastodon have their accounts on servers which are not run by the makers of the app.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •The problem here is the assumption that app makers and service providers are the same people.
On centralised services they are, but not on a federated service. Most email apps are not made by email providers, for example.
The shutting down of third party apps by Twitter, Facebook etc has reinforced this erroneous assumption.
As Eau
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@masukomi This is absolutely true, but I'm talking about why GDPR doesn't allow sneakarounds for when a user submlits data rather than it being requested.
It's also possible that even though no data is being collected by the app-makers, it will be treated as a data processor on behalf of whatever servers it connects to. This would mean that it comes under 'sharing with third parties' or similar.
Chancerubbage
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Blue Sky is constantly reminding you of their data scraping when they ask for permission for more permanent access to your photos every new day you post or save an image, so at least they are somewhat open in that regard.
I wish I visited Blue Sky more- Iโm sorry I think they are failing despite having the most old school Twitter attitude and appearance. But people opt in to the more invasive meta ecosystem, because, numbers.
Fedi can be a bit too preachy, controlling, in own ways.
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David Palk#RejoinEU ๐๐ช๐บ๐๐
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Jack Linke ๐ฆ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •In case this week hasn't made it super clear: people, in general, are willing to trade some data & privacy for not getting brigaded with racist/anti-trans/sexist/ableist crap.
I've mostly enjoyed using Mastodon, but I have many friends here & elsewhere who deal with & talk about the crummy user safety experience Masodon provides for huge swaths of users in minority/disenfranchised/vulnerable populations.
Their friends & colleagues are hearing loud and clear.
#Fediverse #Mastodon
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Jack Linke ๐ฆ • • •I agree Mastodon isn't doing what it should about safety, but Mastodon isn't the only platform on the Fediverse. There are others which have placed a much higher priority on user safety.
I'm particularly following @gotosocial which lets users decide who and how others can interact with their posts, and includes support for allowlist federation where all servers are blocked by default.
Once GoToSocial enters beta (which they've been saying is imminent) I'll be promoting it a lot more.
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Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Here's an example of GTS's approach to user options:
gts.superseriousbusiness.org/@โฆ
It's not a choice between Mastodon and VC-backed corporate networks. There are other options which avoid the dangers of VC corporate and also give users better safety features.
The danger of VC-backed for-profit networks is absolutely horrific:
thebureauinvestigates.com/storโฆ
theguardian.com/technology/202โฆ
amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/โฆ
Ethiopia: Facebook algorithms contributed to human rights abuses against Tigrayans during conflict - New Report
Amnesty International UKGoToSocial
2024-07-29 16:12:01
Jack Linke ๐ฆ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Thanks for sharing. Some good info here.
I'm not a big fan of VC-backed networks and understand the risks and problems. For many folks, though, the problems they and their friends experience are visible and visceral and truly affect them personally, while the problems introduced by VC-backed platforms don't directly affect their daily health and well-being, even if overall they are horrible.
I look forward to reading more about the other platforms and tools you're talking about here!
Fedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •@BeAware
I'll take a look, thanks! ๐
Fedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •Yes, lots of benefits to having many small servers:
fedi.tips/why-is-the-fediverseโฆ
If there are only a few large servers and no small ones, it puts the Fediverse in danger.
Why is the Fediverse on so many separate servers? | Fedi.Tips โ An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tipseverton137
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •that's all true. But since people don't care if a social media platform is owned by a fascist and one of the richest people on the planet, who supports one of the biggest threats to the planet, a far-right movement, what would stop the majority of users from going to an alternative that has the problems pointed out?
People will stay where their peers are. No matter what's involved. This is a good example of how many people will stand up if they see themselves in a table surrounded by nazis.
It's scary and sad, but that's how it is.
#x #fediverse #BlueSky #Mastodon #fascism #nazis #farright
javi/XYZ โ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Very interesting article. When Ello came out and me and a work colleague got invited, we did not have a doubt. It seemed really nice to us at first and got engaged with some users as an underground alternative with high hopes and a creative focus.
Then came the fake users contacting with scam links, then those obscure news about its direction and finally the design contest ads... We got suspicious and just stopped using it. We made our posts backup "manually" ๐ฎโ๐จ but it was a letdown.
Blippy the Wonder Slug ๐ฉ๐ช
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •โฌ๏ธโฌ๏ธ This applies to Threads, as well. โฌ๏ธโฌ๏ธ
(Threads.net)
๐ซ Both "instances" are preemptively blocked on my end.
โ ๏ธ I'd recommend that y'all do the same, but I'm not your dad. You do you. Always.
Jose Eight
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to Jose Eight • • •Going for "higher numbers" is exactly the problem, because it isn't happening sustainably or ethically.
If growth happens, it has to be sustainable and ethical, otherwise you're just stealing money from exploited people in the future.
Once you take VC money, going for higher numbers has to happen forever, even if it means exploiting your users and doing really immoral stuff. It's short term money for long term disaster.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •What is the point of growing an alternative if it ends up as bad as the thing it's replacing? What has that achieved? What difference has it made?
The Fediverse is trying to do things differently in the hope of making something more ethical and sustainable in the long term. At the moment, no one else seems to be doing this?
Code of Amor ๐
in reply to Jose Eight • • •Sensitive content
Jose Eight
in reply to Code of Amor ๐ • • •Code of Amor ๐
in reply to Jose Eight • • •Sensitive content
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Code of Amor ๐ • • •You can get your own masto instance for about $5 a month from managed hosting companies.
You don't need to be techy at all. Managed hosting does all the techy stuff for you. It's about as difficult as setting up an email account.
For example masto.host (okay it's $6 a month but you get the idea).
Managed hosting means anyone can run their own online services, I run a website about managed hosting at growyourown.services
Masto.host - Fully Managed Mastodon Hosting
Masto.hostFedi.Tips
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@codeofamor @jose8
The reason it's so cheap is the economy of scale from a managed hosting company providing hosting for many different instances.
Part of the reason I run my accounts is to encourage more non-technical people to get involved in running their own internet presences, whether it's a website or social media instance or whatever.
It's not as difficult or expensive as people think, it's never been cheaper or easier.
Code of Amor ๐
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Sensitive content
Code of Amor ๐
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Sensitive content
Markus Redeker ๐
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Joan Barrera
in reply to Markus Redeker ๐ • • •Fedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •True of so many things in real life unfortunately ๐
Hopefully there is some steady state possible, where you receive enough money to cover costs without wrecking the place trying to pursue ever-higher profits.
Fedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •You're not identifiable under a Fediverse username unless you choose to make it identifiable. It could be a totally random set of characters.
I don't know what the legal definition under GDPR would be though as I am not a lawyer.
wizzwizz4
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •@faduda You don't need to be a lawyer: GDPR is written in plain English (plain a-lot-of-languages, actually).
The legal definition is found in Article 4: "Definitions".
> โpersonal dataโ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (โdata subjectโ);
> an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as [โฆ] an online identifier [โฆ]
Usernames are explicitly listed.
Fedi.Tips
Unknown parent • • •Fedi.Tips
in reply to wizzwizz4 • • •If I sign up on a server and choose the username i9024jinsiujfiosjfioesj, and I never use that username anywhere else, how can that be used to identify me?
I really don't think it's wise to start saying that this is in the same class as real names or addresses or phone numbers, which obviously make it easy to identify someone.
It lets apps which do collect all kinds of dubious unnecessary info claim "well all apps collect personal data" and try to normalise it.
Chaos Director
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •JustBob ๐ช๐บ๐ธโ๏ธ
in reply to Fedi.Tips • • •Farming out fediverse systems to some corporation is still supporting a corporation.
Beamship is running on a laptop with 1TB hard drive and 4MB RAM. Fiber ISP connections are practically everywhere. Our ISP blocks serving anything so, we bounce across a VPN.
MicroShit just bought GitHub and I have no doubt will decide all the programs on it is their property now.
All these corporations are using AI bots to steal everything. Gmail included.
Take back the Internet by Self-Hosting!!!!