Fediverse Report – #109An essay on user preferences, and how the fediverse’s interconnected network of communities can play into that, as well as some other news.
User Intents
The Bluesky Company (Bluesky PBC) recently announced a proposal to add User Intents to the AT Protocol (ATProto). The proposal allows people to set account-wide preferences how their data should be handled outside the network. It gives people the ability to opt in or opt out their account from a few different things, such as bridging to other protocols or not wanting any of their data being used in generative AI datasets. The proposal is similar to how robots.txt works, meaning that it is a machine-readable format which good actors are supposed to abide by, but is not legally enforceable.
I cover both the fediverse and Bluesky (including ATProto) under Fediverse Report because these networks are deeply interconnected and influence each other. Decisions on one network, like Bluesky’s User Intents proposal, can influence how the fediverse develops and builds their own features. My goal is to help readers understand the fediverse more deeply. By observing how Bluesky’s approaches default user preferences, the fediverse can build their own systems that use its strength of having many diverse and connected communities.
The proposal by Bluesky PBC is as follows:
- People are able to set their preferences for four different categories:
- generative AI
- protocol bridging
- bulk datasets
- public archiving and preservation
- These preferences are account wide. They are valid not only for Bluesky, but for every app build on ATProto.
- The default value is ‘undefined’, not opt-in or opt-out.
- Projects which are intending to use the public data should decide for themselves whether data reuse when the intents are classified as “undefined” is acceptable or not.
- the current proposal is set to lead the way for more granular user preferences, allowing people to specify on an app-level or post-level what their preference is.
Also, some concepts of ATProto that are relevant, which makes the protocol different from ActivityPub:
- On ATProto, a user has only 1 account, and can use that account to log into any service. This is in contrast with ActivityPub, where you need a new account for every service.
- Data on ATProto is public by default, and designed to be accessible. Everyone has full and free access to the data of the entire network.
One thing about user preference settings in social apps is that they are a bit of red herring. The majority of people never change the default settings. Giving people choice is a good thing, but it is impossible force people to choose: the majority of people will just not choose anything. This makes it so that the default value for any preference is hugely important, as it is the de-facto value that the majority of people will experience.
Bluesky PBC tries to avoid this issue by introducing a default “undefined” value. The advantage of using a default value of “undefined” is that Bluesky PBC will not overstep their boundaries and determine the preference of everyone on the network, including people who are not using Bluesky but are using other platforms on the network. The downside is that Bluesky PBC effectively makes no decision at all for the majority of people. Bluesky PBC leaves it to the organisations who use the data to determine how data can be handled if the preference is set to “undefined”. These organisations are likely to value their own interests more than the interest of people whose data they intent to process.
Bluesky PBC has three options here, that all have a downside:
- If Bluesky PBC sets default values for how ATProto account data can be handled it reinforces its centralising role in the network.
- If Bluesky PBC does not set a default value, no decision is made for the majority of people, and it is left to organisations whose goals do not align with those of the people whose data they process.
- If Bluesky PBC sets User Intent not on an ATProto-account wide level, but only on an per-app basis, choices quickly become overwhelming if users must set preferences for every app.
So far I’ve only been talking about Bluesky and ATProto. But the fediverse has a long history of debates, conversations and drama on how to deal with data processing that happens outside of the network. Some high-profile cases include the blowup around Bridgy Fed considering making the bridge between the fediverse and Bluesky opt-out, or the backlash against Searchtodon, which saved user’s timeline locally for searching.
These debates are around data scraping, consent, things being opt-in or opt-out. But one of the struggles that the fediverse has had is to build structural solutions. A significant portion of the fediverse does not consent to have their data handled outside of the network. A persistent problem is that this preference is not expressed in a machine-readable way. This leads to an endless cycle of new developers coming in that are not familiar with the culture who then cross lines of consent and it all blows up in drama again.
Moreover, the fediverse and ActivityPub have a significant advantage on how to deal with the dilemma of setting default values over ATProto. The fediverse is a network that is build up of many different communities connecting with each other. A variety of communities allows for diverse preferences, which can also be expressed in setting default values. And it is a shame that the fediverse is not capitalising on this advantage.
There are communities from whom discoverability is important. Just as there are communities for whom not being easily publicly discoverable is important. These preference can differ within an individual as well: people treat personal photos shared with friends differently from blog articles.
The fediverse can sidestep the question of default account values because people have many accounts on the fediverse, for different use cases. This gives the option to set a different default value for different services. A Pixelfed platform for close friends should set stricter default data-handling preferences. A Mastodon server for blogging platform Medium that has the goal of giving more visibility and reach to its writers could consider setting default values to be more open.
The power of the fediverse is in that there does not have to be a single default at all. Instead, communities and servers should be able to set default values for themselves. This can help shape the tone of the community, and makes it clear what the identity of a community is about. What’s even more powerful is that this only concerns the default value, giving people the ability to set their preferences as they desire. The state of the open social web is such that there are now two protocols in competition with each other. That gives the ability for the fediverse to take ideas from other networks, and improve on them in a way that plays up to the unique strengths that the fediverse has.
The News
Reminder: next week will be FediForum, on April 1-2, and you can register here.
FediverseSharing: A Novel Dataset on Cross-Platform Interaction Dynamics between Threads and Mastodon Users is a new academic paper (currently under review and up on arXiv) that explores the interaction between Threads users and Mastodon users. It takes a dataset of 20k Threads users that have fediverse sharing enabled and compares it to 20k Mastodon users that have interacted with these Threads users. The main goal of the research is to build up this dataset and share it with the community for further research. How sharing a dataset of aggregated user interactions relates to the above essay on user preferences for being included in bulk datasets is left as an exercise to the reader.
PeerTube has done a major redesign for their v7 of the software that came out a few months ago. The organisation now shared the design and development reports that shaped the update.
IFTAS recently had to shut down most of their larger projects due to a lack of funding. One of their projects, FediCheck is now available as open source for someone else to continue with. FediCheck is a deny list management tool that allows server admins to subscribe to external deny lists.
The Lemmy developers will hold an AMA on Wednesday March 26th.
Last week, Ghost made their ActivityPub integration available in public beta for Ghost Pro subscribers. Their weekly update says that now over 250 sites already use the integration. WeDistribute has a hands on with the new features that Ghost offers.
Note: Last week I wrote about the new fediverse platform Forte, and said that the repository did not include an install guide. This is incorrect, the guide can be found here.
The Links
That’s all for this week, thanks for reading! You can subscribe to my newsletter to get all my weekly updates via email, which gets you some interesting extra analysis as a bonus, that is not posted here on the website. You can subscribe below:
#fediverse
fediversereport.com/fediverse-…
Bluesky proposal discussions. Contribute to bluesky-social/proposals development by creating an account on GitHub.
GitHub
ch0ccyra1n is leaving fedi soon
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to ch0ccyra1n is leaving fedi soon • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •5. Declare a security corridor of 300km on the other side of the border, in US territory. Any military activity in that area is a sign of imminent aggression and will prompt a defensive strike.
6. If anything occurs, surge forward and take territory. Keep any war on US soil, not in Canada.
rag. Gustavino Bevilacqua reshared this.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •We can't afford giving an aggressor the benefit of the doubt; too much of our population is within an hour's drive of the border.
If we wait until the US military moves into position to invade, we will have already lost.
rag. Gustavino Bevilacqua reshared this.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •rag. Gustavino Bevilacqua reshared this.
Nelson
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Nelson • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Amgine
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Military planning is to identify goals and accomplish them in ways most surprising to the enemy.
Ideally, with no one hurt.
I like the first part of your plan the most: address this through the already extant treaties of international law - WHICH ARE ALSO US LAW. (See US Constitution, Article III, section 2)
Nemo_bis 🌈
in reply to Amgine • • •eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.p…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategi…
United States strategic petroleum reserve
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Amgine
in reply to Nemo_bis 🌈 • • •@nemobis
Forever.
Although most of Canada's export goes to the USA, and about 50% of *that* is oil, the USA gets the same kind of bad crude from Venezuela.
And if they really had to, they could upgrade their refineries to use the light sweet crude produced in abundance in TX and is nearlly all exported.
It would also improve the USA's pollution situation dramatically.
But M Koch will be getting richer slower, and that will not be acceptable.
Nemo_bis 🌈
in reply to Amgine • • •Amgine
in reply to Nemo_bis 🌈 • • •@nemobis
Very true!
The USA maintains a substantial reserve most of the time. And again, they have another source for the hideously bad bitumous oil the refineries are mostly set up to use.
My gut feeling is they have enough for 3-6 months, excluding rationing or conservation policies. Given that 20% or so of the refineries are working with light cruide, there is a domestic supply chain for the change-over, and could likely be at 40% within 6 months to a year.
Total ass gas, but a guess.
Nemo_bis 🌈
in reply to Amgine • • •eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.p…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_G…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E…
en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?t…
2011 conflict
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Amgine
in reply to Nemo_bis 🌈 • • •@nemobis
Yes, but Canada is very likely to be a quagmire of costs if they do. And become unreliable.
If they are willing to consider that, they would also be willing to consider invading Venezuela. But, since they are being very palsy with M Putin, likely their cheapest option would be to switch policy on Venezuela, backing him to annex the Essequibo region of the Co-operative Republic of Guyana in exchange for controlling their oil industry.
Starmer will roll over; he already has.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Nemo_bis 🌈 • • •Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •@skyfaller
And America's national sport is entitled rage.
Look, I'm on your side here. You're making the same mistake about Americans that the Japanese made at Pearl Harbor and al-Qaeda made on 9/11.
I'm not saying don't seize territory, I'm saying don't do it with the assumption it will worsen morale. It won't. It will harden resolve, not weaken it.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis • • •@siderea @skyfaller Absolutely possible and a fair point!
I suggested occupying low-population areas to put a lot of red on the map and attract military effort to those spots, so the war happens on US soil instead of Canadian soil.
That is probably not a great strategy from the American side, but I think popular opinion would insist on it.
It also gives something to negotiate over: you return southern Ontario, we return the Alaska panhandle or whatever.
Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •oh, definitely try to have the fighting on US soil. As to low population areas, Canada is going to need to strike at relevant US military bases, wherever they are.
You are speaking in anger and fear, which is understandable, but time has come, alas, for cold-eyed military pragmatism.
@skyfaller
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis • • •@siderea @skyfaller oh, I'm not angry! This is just a thought experiment, not a serious plan.
Like I said, I'm just a software developer, not a military planner. I was just wondering, if a war is coming, what would be the best ways to survive as a sovereign nation?
I think, as the much smaller nation, we'd need to use other advantages: territory, initiative, allies. Being passive probably wouldn't work, I think.
Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Allies are going to be the big one.
It's probably going to have to be China.
@skyfaller
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis • • •Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •I don't know it matters. Once a war effort starts, the Trump administration isn't going to let it end.
Please understand, the reason he wants war is as much to organize US society around it as it is to gain any of Canada's resources. "We have always been at war with Eurasia."
He doesn't want war to get something. He wants war for war's sake.
@skyfaller
Fluffy Kitty Cat
in reply to Nelson • • •Nelson
in reply to Fluffy Kitty Cat • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Nelson • • •Karl Auerbach
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •If you are looking for areas to occupy check out Port Roberts, Washington:
maps.app.goo.gl/anYH4jK3fqnc4c…
Point Roberts · Washington, États-Unis
Point Roberts · Washington, États-UnisMick 🇨🇦
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •AMS
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •enoch_exe_inc
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •aswack
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to aswack • • •aswack
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Dave Winer ☕️
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Do you really think the American military would follow an order to attack Canada?
But then I can’t imagine viewing it from your point of view.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Dave Winer ☕️ • • •Dave Winer ☕️
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Dave Winer ☕️ • • •I mean, I totally agree. But about 1/4 of the US thinks annexation is a good idea, and another 1/4 are unsure.
torontosun.com/news/national/m…
Trump, famously, refuses to back down from even the stupidest of ideas. And the government is completely captive to his whim.
I don't think Canadians can count on internal US political resistance to prevent a war.
Most Canadians — and Americans — against Canada becoming 51st state: Poll
Bryan Passifiume (Toronto Sun)Dave Winer ☕️
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •rrmutt
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Oh, one more thing: a common strategy for invaders is to let domestic rebellions happen, and then come in to "protect their rights". Hopefully CSIS and the Mounties can come down hard on any Canadian going on Fox News to invite invaders to come annex our country. It's a valid political position and thought experiment in peacetime; when there is a real possibility of a war, it's treason. Straight to jail! And definitely don't allow any kind of trucker convoy demonstrations in large numbers.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •One more, more thing: China.
One temptation would be to get military support and other aid from China. It's a huge economy, would benefit from our economic resources, and has massive military resources.
I think this might backfire badly. It would go from a war of choice for the Americans to a war of survival. They would probably fight more desperately than if it was just Canadians and their European allies.
Bill Plein🌶
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Bill Plein🌶 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Meh, there are a whole lot of other things.
- Tactical bombers are a big problem; they have a range of 1500-2200km and you just can't get out of their range and stay out of the Arctic Circle.
- The Great Lakes present a lot of opportunities for fuckery. It's about 8000 km of US shoreline.
- There is probably also a lot of opportunity for counterattack on the coasts.
- What happens to the 60K US service members in the 100-200 US bases in Europe? Good question!
Patsy Schmatsy
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Patsy Schmatsy • • •François Caron 🇨🇦
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to François Caron 🇨🇦 • • •@Milnoc I guess it depends on where NATO falls on preemptive attacks as self-defense. I don't know about it. If they say no, we'd have to decide which was more important: NATO support or the initiative.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preempti…
war that is initiated in an attempt to deal with an expected attack before that attack materializes
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Wulfy—Speaker to the machines
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •I love the way you think.
Ukraine has shown the way what happens when you wait for a #tyrant to have their first move.
Mark T. Tomczak
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Oh, absolutely. Americans do not know how it feels to be occupied; haven't had it happen since 1812.
I can't guarantee we wouldn't bite back like a rabid dog, but I can guarantee it would fuck with our identity fiercely to have a foreign sovereignty holding our soil.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Mark T. Tomczak • • •@mark The more time and resources that were spent dicking around trying to recover the Alaska Panhandle or northern Maine would be time and resources not spent on Canadian territory.
I think the best move would be to hold a lot of rural area or wilderness, not any cities or even big towns (expensive and hard to hold). Make a big red stain on the map on the nightly news, with minimal effort.
Jon McLaren
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •You also have those of us in the U.S. that grew up in the border states. We love Canadians, many of us have been across the border many times.
Bring a military truck filled with maple syrup and well help you stage a whole invasion for the cameras, go make some waffles, pancakes n bacon together, and I hope you brought your skates because we may not want a war with ya but we're happy to face ya on the rink!
Richard Littauer
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •as a Vermonter, this is disconcerting.
Perhaps an amendment: "Cause maximum pain to US citizens who are not part of the resistance."
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Richard Littauer • • •Richard Littauer
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •I agree with you on that. I just recognize that a good amount of my friends and community will likely agree with you if there is aggression from the US to Canada, and would likely be interested in doing physical acts of warfare against a fascist state.
The goal of taking US land would, I assume, be to cause regime change in the US to stop future aggression.
Richard Littauer
in reply to Richard Littauer • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Richard Littauer • • •Light
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Light • • •Phil
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •I don't understand this North American (I've seen the same sentiment from friends in the USA) bias for ignoring ROE.
Civilians, despite what other countries may have suggested by their actions, are not valid targets for military action.
To see this kind of sentiment is rather worrying, frankly.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Phil • • •Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🌈
in reply to Richard Littauer • • •@richlitt
That is normally unstated, but implied I think 🤔
@evan
Paul Reinheimer
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Paul Reinheimer • • •@preinheimer I think if you give up 2/3 of the population to bombardment or an occupying force, it's game over.
But, yes, you can't keep most of the economy going this way. I'll change the post.
Paul Reinheimer
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Paul Reinheimer • • •Sean Coates
in reply to Paul Reinheimer • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Sean Coates • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Sean Coates
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •@preinheimer Those both sound like the same outcome to me. In the case where we nearly-all need to give up all of our homes, schools, hospitals, jobs, and other infrastructure, we'd just be occupying ourselves—we'd be so demoralized, malnourished, and disease-ridden, that we'd be easy to conquer.
I think I'd rather lose in the first wave than suffer all of that and lose anyway because we're trying to huddle into tents and hope the wheat delivery isn't droned again.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Sean Coates • • •peachfront
in reply to Paul Reinheimer • • •preemptively abandoning territory esp your most valuable real estate is just plain nuts + we have long range missiles so it's surrendering in advance for naught
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to peachfront • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Atomic Fox
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Sensitive content
I'm sorry to say it, but there's no way to reconcile these objectives. In principle, you could evacuate the population ~250 km from the border, but there's no housing or anything there, so they'd have to live in tents, which is contraindicated by the existence of something called "winter". Constructing housing for that many people doesn't go quickly, even if you haven't abandoned all your industrial facilities (see below) ; and likewise, the heating fuel pipelines are mostly close to the US border, as are all the nuclear power plants.
Crucially, nearly all the industrial facilities bar some mines are located close to the US border, as are almost all the port facilities. So, even if you can divert all imports and exports to different markets (which is very difficult because of the close cross-border integration of many industries, such as cars), there's no good way to move all that stuff without the ports which empty to the Atlantic via the Gulf of St Lawrence.
Barring several independent and very large strokes of luck, your proposed solution would be more destructive than an all-out war.
Now, considering how stupid the people in Washington pushing this bizarre anti-Canada agenda are, threatening it might be believed. I have no way to predict that.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Atomic Fox • • •Sensitive content
lakelady
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to lakelady • • •@lakelady Unfortunately that's not how war works.
It would definitely be easier for everyone in the US if it was only an invasion of Canadian soil, I agree. I just don't think it's a good strategy for Canada.
Nelson
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Nelson • • •Tim Finnerty
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tim Finnerty • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •lakelady
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to lakelady • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •mmby
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to mmby • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •franebleu
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Sensitive content
Just like Hamas, I like that.
Worth a try.
#DiversionaryCounterattack
#RighteousInvasion #ElbowsUp
#ShowThemWhatYoureMadeOf
WTL
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to WTL • • •François Caron 🇨🇦
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to François Caron 🇨🇦 • • •Eric S. Smith
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Eric S. Smith • • •@smiteri yeah, we are not really set up for an invasion! Having 2/3 of your population on the enemy's border is not a recipe for success.
Have you thought about this? How would you defend Canadian sovereignty from a US invasion?
Eric S. Smith
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •As far as I can tell, it’s not doable. They can hit everything we have from the air.
If they send a very small task force to seize a power plant or something, we can shoot them. Anything more than that quickly requires recourse to science fiction.
Your steps 1 and 2 are about it.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Eric S. Smith • • •@smiteri yes, long-range bombers can hit anywhere in Canada. Short-range ones can hit pretty deep.
Moving our people away from the border lowers that risk, though. And maintaining a security corridor inside US territory to make it harder to keep up a bombing campaign may help too.
But our cards are not great. Our best advantages: very long borders, huge territory, European and maybe Asian allies, big dependence by the invader on our energy supply.
And morale.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Eric S. Smith
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Eric S. Smith • • •@smiteri yes, both extremely hard to achieve! I think evacuation is a huge effort here. During the Blitz, the UK moved almost 4M civilians out of high-target areas.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuati…
What percentage of Canadian civilians in the invasion zone -- about 25M people -- could move North or overseas is a big question. Obviously, we'd need military there, and workers in defense industries.
Evacuations of civilians in Britain during World War II - Wikipedia
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Kerry Mitchell 🍁
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •@evan
Sir Charles Tupper, Bt.
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •I don't want to be overly provocative, but I've suddenly become much less opposed to the idea of Canada leaving the NPT...
Article X allows a state to leave the treaty if "extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country", giving three months' (ninety days') notice.
Abu Hodja
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •reshared this
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸, jwz e Oblomov reshared this.
Charles Randall
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •franebleu
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •@evan
🆘Bill Cole 🇺🇦
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •About half of us will welcome our new Canadian Overlords as liberators.
Nicole Parsons
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Alternatively, go after the billionaires funding Trump's attacks on NATO.
Sanction Charles Koch.
desmog.com/2025/03/14/heritage…
An accelerated switch to renewable energy, an oil embargo on #KochNetwork, and a contract cancelation on its allies #AtlasNetwork and #RockbridgeNetwork will defund a fascist movement.
Saudi Arabia, Russia, and fossil fuel interests are the alliance behind Trump's threats.
thegeopolitics.com/polar-reali…
westernstandard.news/alberta/c…
moderndiplomacy.eu/2025/03/04/…
Arctic partnerships and energy upheavals - Modern Diplomacy
Yannis Bassias (Modern Diplomacy)rk: it’s hyphen-minus actually
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •I would like to think that if we tried to invade Canada, the northern states would rebel against the federal government and/or most of our troops would refuse to obey those orders.
I am, unfortunately, not as sure of this outcome as I would’ve been just a few years ago.
Paul Schoe
in reply to rk: it’s hyphen-minus actually • • •@rk
I think that you underestimate how pliable people are and how much they will simply follow orders.
Most of the people running the Nazi camps were just like us and our neighbours.
@evan
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Paul Schoe • • •@paulschoe @rk
I'd love to see American opposition stop this preposterous, fratricidal war before it gets even near starting.
American citizens seem to be taking the atrocities threatened by their government lying down, and politicians are more interested in minor domestic issues than in stopping a continent-wide war or other military excursions.
Bill Zaumen
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •You might want to delete "tear up ... rail lines" because Elon Musk it seems doesn't like our train systems (at a minimum, one of them) anyway. Why spend the effort if these bozos may do it for you?
fresnobee.com/opinion/editoria…
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Bill Zaumen • • •Bill Zaumen
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •When I first saw a picture of Musk's child-sized submarine, my first thought was "Dolt Cart", a "brilliant" device used on the first ascent of El Capitan in Yosemite Valley and apparently never used again because, when on a nearly vertical wall with overhangs, flakes, etc., it would tip over so often that it was more trouble than it was worth.
The cart was named after its inventor, whose nickname was "The Dolt".
mountainproject.com/assets/pho…
Robin Barton
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •K-2 Black Panther tank (South Korea)
K-9 Thunder self-propelled howister (South Korea)
Destroyers without usa fire control system
Gripen fighter Sweden
French submarines
5.56 ammo produced outside of usa
7.62 ammo for machine guns outside usa
- all with tech transfer and factories in Canada
Fluffy Kitty Cat
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •quixote
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •The _only_ way to deal with bullies is to let them feel, in the first millisecond, that if they mess with you they'll have a fight on their hands.
They back off. The Rancid Kumquat has followed that script many times. And yet, because he sits on top of the richest, most nukeified country in the world, people keep acting like appeasement will solve something. It _never_ does with bullies.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •Tabby Schaf❤️🖤
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tabby Schaf❤️🖤 • • •Tabby Schaf❤️🖤
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tabby Schaf❤️🖤 • • •Tabby Schaf❤️🖤
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tabby Schaf❤️🖤 • • •@Tabby_Schaf well, I guess if there were a war going on on the Canadian border, you'd have to go to Mexico instead, and then fly from there.
It feels extreme to ask Canadians not to defend themselves from an invasion, so there's a convenient exit path for American emigrants? Am I misunderstanding the question?
Tabby Schaf❤️🖤
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tabby Schaf❤️🖤 • • •Tabby Schaf❤️🖤
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Now since long all is closed, no escape.
Tabby Schaf❤️🖤
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tabby Schaf❤️🖤 • • •Andres
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Tabby Schaf❤️🖤
in reply to Andres • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tabby Schaf❤️🖤 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •Tejan Ausland
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tejan Ausland • • •@tejan about half of Americans think annexation is a good idea.
torontosun.com/news/national/m…
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Tejan Ausland
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •@Evan Prodromou
But only "Five per cent of Americans favour bringing Canada into the union militarily, according to Tuesday's Angus Reid poll."
Most Canadians — and Americans — against Canada becoming 51st state: Poll
Bryan Passifiume (Toronto Sun)Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tejan Ausland • • •@tejan absolutely. There's even a bill in Congress to prevent allocating funds for these dumb wars:
cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/det…
Tejan Ausland
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tejan Ausland • • •Tejan Ausland
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Tejan Ausland • • •…might work for coffee…
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •as a German, it very much reads like third reich. I talked to couple of random others, yes the speed of USA degredation scares us. It is faster than in our nightmares/known timelines.
Including stories like:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._L…
Try to learn from the past. Central Europe had its fair share of wars and is now in its longest peace period.
So help folks to get out early if they want. We most likely realize always too late when the right time has been.
@brennx0r @ch0ccyra1n
German passenger ship
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Seth G. reshared this.
Old White Dude
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •oscarfalcon
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to oscarfalcon • • •ꟻꟻAИ ᗡAT 🇨🇦
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •oscarfalcon
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to oscarfalcon • • •AlgoCompSynth 🇺🇦
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to AlgoCompSynth 🇺🇦 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Old White Dude • • •M.S. Bellows, Jr.
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Mark T. Tomczak
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Even American foreign policy agrees with this.
What did Bush Jr. use to call it? Preemptive action? You have to fight us over there so you don't have to fight us over here.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •@thecueball thank you for the hobby advice! I will see what I can do. I have a big garden, but I mostly grow native plants. I just got some of these, though, which I'm looking to plant this spring:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apios_am…
species of plant
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Ben. No, not that one.
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •@thecueball I am definitely a complete amateur with defense plans!
The only thing I know is that the US military is about 30 times bigger than ours, and the US economy is about 13 times bigger than ours. If we want to survive an invasion, we'll need to use whatever advantages we can get -- territory, initiative, allies.
If you were a nation-state supporter, what would you do to try to maintain Canadian sovereignty in the face of an American aggressor? Rough sketch.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •rag. Gustavino Bevilacqua reshared this.
RealGravitas -Citizen Saboteur
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Toni M.
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Toni M. • • •Andre Nantel
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Geography and force discrepancy mean that regular forms of military resistance are bound to fail.
We should instead take advantage of these facts:
1- We have a huge border
2- 80% of Canadians look and talk like Americans.
3- The American people are extremely divided, even more so when it comes to invading us.
4- The US Army couldn’t handle insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Andre Nantel • • •Andre Nantel
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •You missed an important detail, I’m talking about partisan tactics on US soil. But mainly it’s leveraging divisions within American society. Remember that millions took to the streets to protest the Iraq war…a far-away conflict against “brown people” of a different religion who had “attacked” the US.
If steps 1 and 2 clarify their intentions, it would probably be easier for us and our allies to provoque a US civil war than for Trump to unify his fractured country againt Canada.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Andre Nantel • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •I think you might need to read through it again. In this case, the US has expressed its intention to attack and is moving troops into position within reach of the border.
Letting those troops get into position and cross our border before taking any action would be insane. Especially with 2/3 of the population only an hour from the border.
And don't worry about real estate! It will be much less valuable when it's been pounded into rubble by American bombers and missiles.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •@AlexanderVI so, because resistance would be hard, accept an occupation and lose any advantages whatsoever, and hope guerrilla actions nudge towards collapse of the empire?
Hand in the guns and fight with sticks?
That's just defeatism.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •@AlexanderVI understood!
I think our only win condition is surviving long enough that the invader loses their will to continue the war and comes to the negotiating table.
I think holding US territory would be bad for US civilian morale. It would concentrate American firepower on troops in Minnesota, Idaho and Northern Maine rather than on the GTA.
It would also give us something to take to the table. Exchanging territorial gains and returning to pre-war borders would be a good outcome for us.
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •@AlexanderVI one hope would be that moving troops and weapons to North America for a war would destabilize other regions, requiring redeployment of those troops back to Europe, the Middle East, East Asia, or whatever.
But the US has about 1M active service members in the US right now. They wouldn't have to move anyone.
Robin Barton
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •franebleu
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Let's Invade the motherfuckers ! You got a piece Evan ? I can provide if you need one, I have some guys in Alberta if that's in your reach. Long range, auto, decent armor, second hand, unregistered, pristine conditions, fair price and a free ammo pack for you.
AlexanderVI
Unknown parent • • •if you sincerely believe the Canadian Forces can go toe to toe against the US military, I completely understand your reasoning.
From the numbers, and from what I have seen of the US military up close, we are going to have very different opinions on that.
I am glad we are at least having frank discussions about this. I hope DND is as well.
For clarity, my family came to Canada as refugees when New York was evacuated in 1783. I have personally lived in the States. I will not do so again
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •@ErictheCerise In this case, the US is massing troops and equipment on the border with clear indication for an invasion.
As for allies, I agree that it's a major question. Canada would probably need to clear with NATO that preemptive strikes count as self-defence.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preempti…
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Waps
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •my guess is that US won't attack Canada directly but might first attack Groenland(Danemark, a NATO member) for which Canada would need to respond accordingly with article 5.
Word is that Trump has already asked its military planners to make propositions...
Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Waps • • •Mike Watson 🇨🇦
in reply to Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
in reply to Mike Watson 🇨🇦 • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •Evan Prodromou 🇨🇦🇺🇸🇬🇷🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •brenna 🇧🇲🏳️🌈🇺🇸
Unknown parent • • •Chad
Unknown parent • • •